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May i suggest that what is 'wrong' about islam is that its followers take it seriously.
you can suggest what you like.
But yes, millions of them do. They either carry out the words of Allah and his prophet to the letter or they support in many ways those that do carry out the words of Allah and his prophet to the letter.
What makes Christianity 'nicer' is that it has been secularised and diluted by humanism.
sounds like your complaining.
I am not sure that a society dominated by Christian zealots would be all that different from an Islamist state..
Opinion. But christianity on the whole, it cannot be denied, is far far more civilised. The NT does not preach or teach violence against the non believer, as does the Quran.
Imagine a world with Westboro Baptists in charge.
Maybe terrible? But it would not be on the orders of The christ god Jesus. Nowhere in the scripture does he teach violence or orders violence towards those who do not believe in him, as does the Quran.
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I am puzzled as to why you have sent me a friends request>> «RationalMadman» has sent you a friend request
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but have me on block. Extremely strange behaviour is that , for sure.
No need to respond.
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@keithprosser
So do I - but it's a very different hidden story. I see a story of humans writing propaganda.
Mixing truth with lies is the way forward for any organisation or movement to further the cause. In other words and in this case scriptural half truths and half stories to further the cause of christianity, as I have been saying since the day I joined this forum.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Stephen.Do you consider yourself a good scripture translator?
No. Because I haven't "translated" anything.
Stephen?
What?
Hey stephen.Is it safe to say you are in the Top 10,000 peoples that's ever been and is, when it comes to deciphering ?
No. Mine is all opinion backed up with what I believe to be evidence. All "evidence" can be disputed and debunked.
Top 1000 ?
No
Top 100 ?
No
Ten.
No
From that. I HAVE AND CAN see other story COMMENT #26 i ummmmm.
I have said many times here on this forum that I believe there is another story that the gospellers are desperate to hide. It is not the "gospel truth".
i have and can now see what type of person you are.
I am not sure you can. but who am I to tell you what you can and cannot "see"?
I get it now.
Nice.
Hey stephen , Good weekend mate.
Thank you.
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EDIT: Not for me to "reconcile", is it. But of course, as per usual, nations meant something slightly different >>> BC <<<< and early AD than it does today.
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@Polytheist-Witch
This place is over run with theist atheists.
Such as yourself and I, Witch. It is a religion forum though by the way. so Theist and atheists would normally post on a religion forum about religion..
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@Mopac
OT God and NT God are the same.
prove it
And Christianity isn't what you think it is either.
I agree.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Stephen is one of those ancient alien idiots.
Ancient "gods", I think you mean , Witch. And the scriptures do actually say they descended from above , Witch. You can make of that what you will.
Now, about your gods, those you believe in the ones you mention here:>
The god Wodan/Odin was the god of Yule
Where does "Wodan/Odin" exist ? where did he come from?
Holle in the German tradition shares the lead of the Hunt and the Yule celebration.
Who is "Holle" and where does Holle exist? Where did he come from?
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Thank you for your concern RM but then deny me a right to reply to you specifically and directly. I am puzzled as to why you adress me directly and specifically direct and dedicate a whole thread to me personally, but have me on block?
Anyway:
If only you'd stop being a warrior against all religion
I am not against all religion, in fact the only religion I can honestly say I am against, is ISLAM.
Please note >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It is the scriptures I dispute,<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< and the New Testament in particular because it is a nonsense the way it has come down to us and more of a nonsense they way it has been taught to us by bible thumping hypocrites of whom many simply haven't read the book for themselves. Make of that what you will. I don’t care. I believe all the characters in the bible existed including the many gods.
Stephen, please open your eyes.
I have and can see another story hidden below the surface of these scriptures.
Yours truly,RM
Yours sincerely,
Stephen
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99% of people don't care about Asia Bibi.
I agree, including christians.
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How do you reconcile Matthew 28?
Not for me to "reconcile", is it. But of course, as per usual, nations meant something slightly different AD early AD than it does today. Over half the references to "nations" in the OT are negative, ex, Leviticus 18:28 it meant vomit. A "drop in a bucket" and "dust on the scales"Isaiah 40:15. "Slaves" in Leviticus 25:44.
But I think it can be safely said that in this instance it means tribes. It was a uniting mission,exactly as King David had done that Jesus was trying to achieve. He knew he couldn't take on the Romans with the nations/tribes divided. So " Therefore go and make disciples of all nations," could easily be interpreted as - 'go out to all the tribes and bring back the lost sheep into the sheepfold' - as it clearly states "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel."
It is for the theist to reconcile this:
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
with this>>
Matthew 10:5-6
These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, [anyone NOT of Jacob /Israel from whom the 12 tribes came] and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And we have a clue here when god is said to have told Abram renamed Abraham;>
Genesis 12:2 "I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing.
Well when we read that, we see the 12 tribes that sprang from him eventually created one great tribe/nation : ISRAEL.
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The purpose of His coming was to judge Israel and bring salvation for those waiting for Him.
I don't agree and you cannot back that up with anything tangible. BUT, "those waiting for Him" could have only meant Jews and not gentiles. The scripture is clear. Jesu came to appeal to Jews gods "chosen people" and not gentiles.
Learn to read. How many times can you see the words - do not - go not, gentiles and Israel?
Matthew 10:5-6
These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles,[anyone not a Jew] and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
New Living Translation
New Living Translation
Jesus sent out the twelve apostles with these instructions: "Don't go to the Gentiles or the Samaritans,but only to the people of Israel--God's lost sheep.
English Standard Version
English Standard Version
These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans,but only to the people of Israel--God's lost sheep.
Berean Study Bible
Berean Study Bible
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go onto the road of the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
Berean Literal Bible
Berean Literal Bible
These twelve, Jesus sent forth, having instructed them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans.but only to the people of Israel--God's lost sheep.
New American Standard Bible
New American Standard Bible
These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
King James Bible
King James Bible
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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@keithprosser
racists and fascists
I see, anyone who doesn't agree with you and has an alternate argument and opinion, and SO CONSIDER TO BE "racists and fascists". Why am I not surprised.
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@keithprosser
Do many people really write to their MP?I don't think posting on DA would change anything.
Well now we know that you are not just conceited, arrogant and egocentric and contrary for the sake of it, you are also apathetic.
And yes, I believe people do. Me for one.
I've done my share of marching around carrying placards -
Sending a letter is not marching around. It is walking up to the post box and slipping your letter into the slot located at the top. And there is Email where there is no marching around or up to anything at all.
mostly against racists and fascists
I see, anyone who doesn't agree with you and has an alternate argument and opinion. Why am I not surprised.
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my favourite theologian is marcion of sinope who gave up trying to reconcile the OT and NT and wrote that there are or were two gods,(ie not one)and threw out the OT entirely. Perhaps the most surprising thing is that he wasn't burned at the stake for it!
I agree, and even now, in this new age, christians, I believe are worshiping the wrong god.
It is all to do with "houses" and which "god" is the ruler of any given age. i.e Abraham,Moses = Ram = Aries who supported the god of that house and this is why that there are many references to the "ram", "rams horns" ect is mentioned many times during this period in the OT.. Before this period it was the age of Taurus, the Bull and the gods supported by the Pharaohs. You may recall, when the Hebrews were starving and wondering through the parched desert and fed up of Moses barking orders and going awol every other day, they decided it was time they went back to supporting the "old god" and made a calf/bull of gold.
There is also this verse that gives a clue to what was actually going on when Joseph - he of many colours - Genesis 46:33-34 tells is shepherd family to lie to Pharaoh, saying:
"And it shall come to pass, when Pharaoh shall call you, and shall say, What is your occupation?"
"That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination unto the Egyptians".
There of course is only one explanation for Pharaoh believing every shepherd to be an "abomination". It is because the shepherds supported the Ram god of the house of Aries.
When Jesus entered the picture that age was coming to an end and the house of the Fish,Pisces was on the horizon. this is why we have many references to fish and fishermen and people being made fishers of men etc.
Now by all accounts, the age of the fish has also passed. And an interesting clue to that maybe that when a pope dies normally his ring is destroyed and a new "fisherman's ring" is issued to the newly elected Pope. But not in the last case. The fisherman's ring of Pope Benedict XVI was kept and put into the vatican museum where it is on public view. Interesting also is that Benedict retired, when these posts are supposed to be until death. He was the first pope to retire in over 600 years. Those that "retired" before are suspicious as to whether they were pushed or they jumped.
AND
I don't believe that is was any coincidence that in the same timeframe that the Pope stood down that Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams decided to retire too.
AND
who can forget this little telling gem from jesus?
Luke 12:56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
What a giveaway!
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@Polytheist-Witch
The god Wodan/Odin was the god of Yule
Where does "Wodan/Odin" exist ?
Holle in the German tradition shares the lead of the Hunt and the Yule celebration.
Who is "Holle" and where does Holle exist?
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'Can't do much about it now' is your addition.
It was, and that is why it is not in quotes attributing it to you..
it's a PR cock-up because all that's been achieved is making May's administration appear either callous, weak or scared - or all three. Hardly a PR coup, is it?It would seem such an easy option to offer asylum that one has to wonder why no offer has been made. I'm not convinced that fear of upsetting a very few Islamic hot-heads here in the UK is the main reason, even if its the one given in public. Pakistan has had to promise its own hot heads (of which it has millions) it will prevent bibi leaving. That country is - by all accounts - on the edge and a credible offer of asylum could push it over the edge. The worst case leaves a hard line Islamist regime in charge of a nuclear power.I wish I was privy to the thinking behind the refusal to offer asylum, particularly as she is unable take it up. maybe in 30 years the relevant documents will revealed...
So, that is a no, then, you haven't written to your local MP.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
Anti-white sentiments
We are seeing this in our society here in England. They ( blacks and whites) are all but saying it is bad to be white.
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@PGA2.0
Your scripture speaks of a time of fulfillment.
And your scripture clearly states that Jesus only came to save Jews ONLY.
ONLY
/ˈəʊnli/
adverb
- 1.and no one or nothing more besides; solely.
Tell me, how many times do you need to read the word ONLY before it all sinks through to you?
Matthew 15:24
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
And answering He said, "I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel."
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
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@Mopac
But we Orthodox certainly do see ourselves as the new Israel.
What you see yourself as is irrelevant? you are not "Israels, chosen people" and jesu makes it very clear that he had only come to save the "children of Israel".
Jesus only came to save the Jews
Matthew 10:5-6
These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles,[anyone not a Jew] and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus rubber stamps his earlier statement:
Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
ONLY
/ˈəʊnli/
adverb
- 1.and no one or nothing more besides; solely.
Tell me, how many times do you need to read the word ONLY before it all sinks through to you?
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
English Standard Version
English Standard Version
And answering He said, "I was sent only to those being lost sheep of the house of Israel."
New American Standard Bible
New American Standard Bible
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
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@Polytheist-Witch
The ancient aliens must have been Jews.
No. The "gods" of the Jews may have been, Witch, Their abode is said to be up in the "heavens" and one is said to be " coming on or through the clouds" so you may be onto something there. but this is a thread about " Israel, god's chosen people".
You still haven't told me where you believe your gods exist, Witch, why are you avoiding that question?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Atheists quoting Bibles are fools
I think your a little mixed up, Witch. Atheist who know and quote the bible much better that theist show the theist for what fools they are.
You still haven't told me where you believe your gods exist, Witch, why are you avoiding that question?
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@PGA2.0
While I do not condone the situation and now that I have been made aware of it I pray for her and her family.
Nice, that, praying for her: But now that you are “aware of it” don’t you think that the Christian Community should be more vocal and or active? I am not a practicing Christian but I have written to my local MP demanding that this “PERSECUTED CHRISTIAN WOMAN, be given asylum her in the UK.
Your own country(providing you are American) appears to have lost its sense of justice.
I am white English. I Am from a country where children now are being taught it is wrong to be white and that they should be ashamed of themselves for being so. I believe this is happening in the States and Canada also.
What Jesus said still bears truth in our day and age.“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Yes, all very helpful and comforting in Bibi’s hour of need, I am sure.
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@keithprosser
Bit of a cock-up on the PR front if nothing else for the governmnent and for Britain.
That’s it is it prosser? “bit of a cock – up on the PR front”. Someone’s life is undoubtedly in danger and your response is –“ it's all down to a bit of a cock up” and we can’t do much about it now.
I get the impression that there is very widespread support for Ms Bibi's asylum request in the general population but concern over a disproportionate Islamist reaction was muted any strong opposition to the governments stance.
Yes it has been recognised by our own government that the- not so integrated muslim communities of GB and who follow the religion of peace may want to murder Bibi.
And as you know, this story has dropped away from Western media now (not that it was there more than a day or so) and been replaced by the “so called bullying incident at a school”. As I mentioned on your own thread about the Christian missionary I mentioned that I wrote to my own mp only for him to respond more or less in the same vein as yourself replied to the effect that - to interfere and allow her refuge may upset "British Muslims here at home and we have to consider their reactions".
As a human being I would like Bibi tobe offered uk asylum and be able to take it up in peace.
And have you written to your MP in an atheist capacity insisting she be given Asylum? Or are you on the fence?
But if I were a Prime Minister Concerned with 'Real Politick' and the definite possibility more people will die than are saved if things go wrong (as they frequently do) the decision is much, much harder.
Good point. There no doubt that there is avery good chance that the Muslims of the religion of peace would be 'peacefully, up in arms about this as they were in Pakistan demanding that this ill treated and persecuted Christian being allowed to settle here in this Christian Country.
There is still the problem that Pakistan Refuses to allow her to leave, making any offer of asylum moot.
Well the Canadians are said to be “in talks” ? But I believe these "talks" will last forever, I hope I am wrong.
btw, Stephen - you seem to think I Have Christian leanings!
Nope. This again must be the nature of the internet. I have never taken you to be a Christian and I believed you when you told me you were a full blown atheist the 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th and 5th times that you told me.. I have taken you for how you come across to me, that is extremely conceited and very arrogant and egocentric at times. And are for the most part contrary simply for the sake of it. But I can live with it. You don’t offend me in the slightest. and I wouldn't want you banned even if you called me stupid.
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I see the "brotherly christians" have no comment on the appalling treatment of their christian sister.
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@PGA2.0
So, in Exodus 24:3, 7 God presents to Israel an if/then covenant that they never live up to. Thus, as promised, He brings judgment/curses on them like He said He would.
And Jesus came to redeem only them " the chosen". Or have you gone blind too?
Jesus only came to save the Jews
Matthew 10:5-6
These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles,[anyone not a Jew] and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus rubber stamps his earlier statement:
Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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@Mopac
The Orthodox Church is Israel.
No it isn't. No matter what it chooses to call itself. stop being silly.
And Christianity was referred to as a race even by ancient Christians.
So? Christianity is not a race no matter what ancient Christians referred to christianity as. Stop being silly again
And FYI, The Orthodox Church compiled scripture, it is our book. It isn't for you to interpret.
So? Are you saying that you have re-written the scriptures to suit your agenda? Because that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
It would only mean that you are no closer to "Israel the chosen" than you wre 2,000 years ago but further away. Besides, FYI it means nothing whatsoever.
I have noticed as have everyone else, that you have ignored the words of those biblical verses confirming what I say.
Jesus only came to save the Jews
Matthew 10:5-6
These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles,[anyone not a Jew] and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But gorather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus rubber stamps his earlier statement:
Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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@Mopac
I notice you have ignored the contradiction there, mopac. Either explain it or leave the thread. i don't want you damming up this thread will your repetitive mantra.
So you choose then to ignore the instructions of your god christ? Or don't you believe his warnings?
Atheists are fools,
Matthew 5:22 "but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire".
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The Orthodox Church actually sees itself as a continuation of this.
What it "sees itself as" is neither here nor there, I'm afraid. It means absolutely nothing. Jesus only cared for saving the Jews, that is to say, "the people of Israel" just as the scripture clearly states.
So it isn't that the new covenant now includes Christians. Orthodox Christianity is the fulfillment and continuation of ancient Israel.
Only in your own mind. Your ignoring the facts of the matter. But I expected you to do this.
The Christian race is now God's chosen people.
(1) "christian" or christianity is not a "race". (2) what Christians believe themselves to be is one thing, what the scriptures say is another.
I suppose you will ignore these glaring facts, but they are there for you and all your " christian race", to read them.
Jesus only came to save the Jews
Matthew 10:5-6
These Twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles,[anyone not a Jew] and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But gorather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus rubber stamps his earlier statement:
Matthew 15:24
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
So the above not only proves you to be totally wrong in what you believe about yourself, but this also contradicts the Acts of the apostles and the letters of Paul.
Never mind eh.
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“Israel mypeople”.
Jews As God's Own Chosen People.
There are over 20 verses in the Old Testament where god speaks of “his chosen” people.
Including
"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth”.Deuteronomy 7:6-8
And
"For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples”.Deuteronomy 14:2
So, there is no getting away from the fact that here god has made it quite clear that the people of Israel – Jews: have been especially chosen and singled out to be his favourites out of “ALL THE PEOPLES” of the known world.
Christians will no doubt try to argue - ‘but there was a new covenant” when Jesus was born and this now includes Christians: while ignoring the stone cold fact, that (1) Jesus was a Jew. (2) There were no Christians in his lifetime. (3) Jesus the Jew only cared about his own Jew kind. These are facts.Jesus and god were what we call today – racist and christianophobes.
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Who reallyis the fool, Jesus or those who repeat and regurgitate Jesus’ contradictions?
Matthew 5:22threatens anyone calling someone a fool is “indanger of hell fire”.
So what? Onemay ask. It must be terrible that theists cannot call atheists “fools”. Buthold on just a second:
What do wehave here? Luke 24:25
Jesus “sonof god” calling people “fools”!!!!
Surely,this is a mistranslation? Surely, it isI who is at fault? Surely, I have misquoted the verses? Surely, I havemistranslated?
Surely, I have taken these verses out ofcontext? Surely, I have misunderstood?
Surely, itis me who cannot read. Surely, it is I who is the fool?
SURLEY, THIS IS A CLEAR CONTRADICTION BYJESUS, THE SON OF GOD HIMSELF!
Matthew 5:22threatens anyone calling someone a fool is “indanger of hell fire”.
So what? Onemay ask. It must be terrible that theists cannot call atheists “fools”. Buthold on just a second:
What do wehave here? Luke 24:25
Jesus “sonof god” calling people “fools”!!!!
Surely,this is a mistranslation? Surely, it isI who is at fault? Surely, I have misquoted the verses? Surely, I havemistranslated?
Surely, I have taken these verses out ofcontext? Surely, I have misunderstood?
Surely, itis me who cannot read. Surely, it is I who is the fool?
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70,000 illegalsand 1 Christian Abibi
Just yesterday a Christian member here was talking about being my “brother through Christ” and“We believers are all brothers in Christ”
#14
This is absolute garbage.
We have had in the headlines for some months now story of the desperate plight of a Christian Pakistani woman who had spent over 8 years on death row for Islamic blasphemy.
Not a single western country has offered to give her asylum from persecution. This is not to mention that not a single “brother in Christ” on this forum has even mentioned the plight of their own “Christian sister”. They make me sick!
She has had the original verdict overturned but she, and all of her known relatives are in hiding because the baying Muslim mob of thousands who had spent nearly a week protesting still want her and anyone hiding her put to death. Asia Bibi’s story in brief amounts to this>:
Her difficulties began as she picked berries with other farmworkers in a Punjab field in June 2009. A quarrel with two Muslim women erupted after she was asked to fetch water and they said they would not drink from a vessel touched by a Christian.
The women later alleged to a village mullah that Mrs Bibi had insulted the Prophet. She has always denied blasphemy and said she had been falsely accused to settle a score.
“Britain has not offered asylum to a Pakistani Christian woman freed after eight years on death row for blasphemy because of fear it would prompt “unrest” in the UK and attacks on embassies, her supporters claim”.
And Canada are said to be “in talks” about whether to grant her asylumthere.
I made a passing comment about Asia Bibi on another thread started by the great fence sitter himself Keithprosser who had another Christian story running asking- was a Christian missionary a “Martyr or a Mug” https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/795
He was still on the fence himself and had not given his verdict either way until he was recently ( a few minutes ago) prompted to do so, it was his thread after all.
And while all of this is going on Britain has accepted 70,000 illegals so far this year, and over £150, 00 has been raised to re-house a 15 year old “bullied refugee” bullied by another 15 year old and something that must happen every day in our schools up and down the country..
It only goes to say that the silence of Asia Bibi’s persecution is deafening and not a single Christian here has had the balls to even mention it never mind protest about it here.
“We believers are all brothers in Christ”. My arse!
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@keithprosser
You seem to think that not drawing wild conclusions from insufficient information is 'sitting on the fence'!
Then why even start the thread about it AND ask for others opinion. Do you not see your contradiction?
You didn't put alongside your link - "please do not make any wild conclusions from the "insufficient information" in the link that I have asked you to give an opinion on, just tell me if he was a mug or a martyr" DID YOU!!!!!?
I'd say he's a martyr by definition, but I doubt he wanted to be one! But he was a mug to think it was a good idea.
That's both then. Why am I not surprised.
About time. I noticed you had let this thread slip before being forced to finally commit yourself.
And your question was a simple - one or the other. It wasn't - one - the other - or BOTH. Was it? fence sitter
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@keithprosser
martyr or mug?
So what is your verdict? Or are you also on the fence on this one.
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Being a descendant of priests or kings does not make someone a priest or a king.
It did according to the ancient Hebrews and peoples of 1st century AD. He was making a claim to the throne and many seemed to have supported that claim. You have to remember , it wasn't only Herod who was a puppet put into place by the Romans, it was also the high priesthood: they were false priests.
If I were a devout catholic attending the Vatican it could be said that I was in my father's house. But there again you should read the nonsense that precedes the verses you have quoted:
43 After the festival was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44 Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends.
So they had travelled a whole day and it took a whole day before these dozy parents realised that their twelve year old child was missing.
And it seems the KJV is slightly more specific about which "teachers" the child was talking with;
“And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions”. Luke 2:46.KJV
And verse 49 KJV actually states "And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business"? <<<<<<<<<<<<<< nothing there about -- "having to be in his father's house"
So then in these terms it makes more sense.
And you still have not shown not a single piece of evidence to support your opinion that Jesus was not a Priest or King.
BY YOU, simply saying " being a descendant of priests or kings does not make someone a priest or a king"; does not support your opinion in any way. No matter how many times you say it to yourself.
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@keithprosser
That is not addressing the op prosser. Your becoming as boring and nauseating and tedious as that fawning sycophantic clown mopac. You just don't like it when people have responses and answers to you.
You come across as extremely conceited and very arrogant and egocentric at times that I bet you have been "continually punched in the mouth". And so " are forced to go on line". Now address the thread or leave it.
You have not shown not a single piece of evidence to support your opinion that Jesus was not a Priest or King.
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@Mopac
Is there a reason you must be so disrespectful?
Maybe it is because you very rarely address the op or simply derail a thread with nonsense that has nothing to do with the OP. That is "rude" that is "disrespectful". Now enough of your opinions of me . I am not interested in your opinions of me.
Why do you think so highly of yourself?
Opinion. But I do believe I know these scriptures much better than you have been taught. And that I have read them more thorough than you and a few others here have taken the time to do for YOURSELF. For instance:
(1)Mark seems to think it is of no importance whatsoever and makes no mention at all about the "virgin" birth.
(2) Matthew and Luke mention it with varying emphasis.
(3) John feels it isn't even worth mentioning and also ignores it all together.
Now enough of the "virgin" birth and stick to the OP.
I would enjoy our conversations a great deal more if ......
I would probably enjoy conversations with you if you would at least try to answer some of my questions. But I have given up on that ever happening when is all you do is derail the thread - my threads.
There are many ways someone can be a brother to another.
No there isn't. You are not my brother and I don't believe I would like you as one.
We believers are all brothers in Christ.
Not in my case. I don't believe the scriptures the way you do and the way you have been taught them.
Tradition holds that these brothers of Jesus are actually half brothers from a prior marriage of Joseph,
You could be right as could the tradition. But start your own thread on the matter giving evidence of this tradition. This thread is about the royal and priestly status of Jesus.
A close read of the scriptures continually tell us that the many if not all of Jesus' disciples were rich. His close friends and other supporters and followers were also people of high office and status and also rich. This does not sound like a "poor" son of a carpenter to me, what about you?
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@keithprosser
Luke indicates that jesus' family was poor in Lk 2:22-24
Like I have said to --> @drafterman post #13 above " depending on how one reads these scriptures one either believes he was a rightful heir or he wasn't". Right off the bat Matthew 2:2 Jesus is referred to as "king of the Jews " by eastern kings baring royal gifts.
In his book Genesis of the Grail Kings, Sir Laurence Gardner explains; - “Gold was the traditional symbol of Kingship, while pine resin (identified with pineal secretion: Melatonin) was often used to make frankincense (in the incense of priesthood). Hence, gold and frankincense were the traditional substances of priest-kings of the messianic line, along with Myrrh (a gum resin used as a medicinal sedative), which was symbolic of death”. Sir Lawrence Gardner, Genesis of the Grail kings, Page 185.
Matthew has Jesus born of royalty and of noble birth and born in a house not a stable.. And like the word - carpenter - one really needs to understand what is meant when the scriptures use the word "poor" or " the poor" and who it actually refers to.
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@drafterman
on what basis do we establish his heriditory rights to the kingdom of Israel?
"We" don't have to. Because depending on how one reads these scriptures one either believes he was a rightful heir or he wasn't. The scriptures clearly suggest he was. The question for "us" is, do we believe the scripture?
Prosser, who I quoted in the op simply says Jesus wasn't a "priest or a prince". I say the scriptures indicate to the contrary.
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@drafterman
God eventually rejects Saul’s kingship (1Sam 13:7-14, 1Sam 15:10-29). With Saul’s decline, Samuel anoints David, the youngest son of Jesse, as king. Later, the people anointed David as king of Judah.
Hereditary kingship began after David’s death. His son, Solomon, though not his first-born son, succeeded David on the throne. After Solomon’s death, the kingdom split into two: Israel, or the northern kingdom and Judah, the southern kingdom. Each kingdom, with its own monarch, followed different means of succession. In Judah, God promised King David that his “house” or lineage would rule the United Monarchy forever (2Sam 7). The Davidic dynasty prevailed in Judah, beginning with Solomon’s son, Rehoboam until the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BCE.
Dynastic succession was never fully established in the north due to rebellion, warfare, and coups; Israel was ruled by an alternating series of ruling families and independent kings until its destruction in 722 BCE. Jeroboam, who was an administrator in Solomon’s court and not a relative, was installed as first king of the northern kingdom of Israel...........".
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@Plisken
Joseph was in the business of carpentry .
So I keep being told.
According to some scholars the word - carpenter - didn't mean what we today take it to mean. This is covered by many biblical authors such as the Jewish scholar Geza Vermes who notes that later Talmudic texts use the word for "carpenter" or "craftsman" - naggar - as a synonym for "teacher, scholar, learned man", Geza Vermes; Jesus the Jew page 21.
Géza Vermes, FBA was a British academic, Bible scholar, and Judaist of Hungarian Jewish origin—one who also served as a Catholic priest in his youth—and writer on history of religion, particularly Judaism and early Christianity.
And there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Jesus was a poor carpenter himself in the sense that we understand the word carpenter today.. As mentioned Jesus is called Rabbi and teacher many times in the scriptures.
Jesus was perceived as a legitimate threat among individuals positioned in the elite establishment.
And for many reasons. Herod (a puppet king) took his birth as a serious threat to his rule and it is said that : "he was troubled, and disturbed and all Jerusalem with him" by the news of a child born "King of the Jews", so much so that Herod wanted him dead.
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@Plisken
I'm failing to see why this bothers you.
Ya don't say.
Now either address the op or leave the thread.
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@Plisken
Where in the scripture have you found the catagorical difference?
i.e. the scriptures tell a C-A-T-E-G-O-R-I-C-A-L-Y different story to what mopac believes and what he will have us believe.
You obviously haven't understood what i have wrote. It was a question. You haven't even tried to address it.
Mopac the clown, will have us believe that Mary, said Mother of the immaculate conceived Jesus , remained a "virgin" AFTER, not just the birth of the Jesus, "king of the Jews" Matthew 2:1-8 but also AFTER the births of Jesus' brothers and sisters.
Do you have a single piece of evidence for this being the case? More's the point does Mopac?
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@keithprosser
I think the NT does go further than saying 'do not make earthly wealth your hearts desire' and does imply 'wealth is bad'.
A close read of the scriptures continually tell us that the many if not all of Jesus' disciples were rich. His close friends and other supporters and followers were also people of high office and status and also rich.
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Joseph helped raise Jesus as a child, as his own son, but Mary is understood as being a virgin both before and after Jesus' birth.
Talking out of your arse again, Mopac
The New Testament Gospel of Mark 6:3 and the Gospel of Matthew 13:55–56 clearly state that James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon as brothers of Jesus. Also mentioned, but not named, are sisters of Jesus. James, many scholars agree, took over as leader of the Jerusalem church after the crucifixion.,
So tell me , you clown, how could Mary remain a "virgin" after the birth of Jesus, when your own New Testament scriptures categorically state different. Were all these siblings immaculately conceived too?
You really are a buffoon.
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keithprosser wrote: Jesus was - allegedly - the son of an ordinary carpenter, not of a priest or prince.
I believe this to be incorrect and simply a case of prosser being contrary for the sake it..... again.
The gospel of Matthew States explicitly that Jesus was of royal blood – a genuine king, the lineal descendant of Solomon and David. If this is the case, then Jesus would have enjoyed a legitimate claim to the throne of a united Palestine and perhaps the legitimate claim. And the inscription affixed to the cross would have been much more than mere derision, for Jesus would indeed have been ‘King of The Jews.
He had influential rich friends in very high places and most, if not all of his disciples were rich. Jesus is repeatedly called “king of the Jews” many times when being interrogated by Pilate.
Mark 15:12-15 states clearly Pilate asking those assembled dignitaries:
“What shall I do, then,with the one you call the king of the Jews?” thus indicating at least some Jews do actually refer to Jesus as their king. In All four gospels, Pilate also accords Jesus that title. In the fourth gospel he insists on it quite adamantly and seriously- despite the protests from the elders.
In three of the synoptic, Jesus Himself acknowledge his claim to the title telling Pilate he had spoken correctly when asked “art thou king of the Jews”.
Jesus is referred to many times a teacher and rabbi indicating he was of the priesthood.
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@Mopac
It's in his title. Pontifex Maximus
"Pontifex Maximus" Does NOT mean king, it doesn't even mean royalty, you absolute CLOWN!!!
"Pontifex Maximus" means(in ancient Rome) the head of the principal college of priests.
(in the Roman Catholic Church) a title of the Pope.
You just making stuff up now, you are the worst type of attention seeking clown that there is. Telling lies for attention is a mental illness.
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I take the pedigrees with a large pinch of salt.
I know , as you do all the scriptures. I have to wonder why you even bother with any kind of response, ever..
if pushed I'd say it was probably the latter - I doubt the hebrew kept reliable, meticulous birth records for the general population over hundreds of years.
Contrary for the sake of of it? I also doubt that " the hebrew kept reliable, meticulous birth records for the general population over hundreds of years".
But you have simply and for the sake of being contrary, overlooked the fact that we are NOT talking of the general population, we are talking of ROYALTY and the High Priesthood of which there are records.
I do accept there are contradictions between Matthew and Luke concerning the genealogies. But none of this is answering the op. so here is the original question.
Does anyone have extra biblical evidence of this?Added: 11.26.18 06:27AM1 Kings 10: 14.The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents not including the revenues from merchants and traders and from all the Arabian kings and the governors of the territories. That is about 30 tons or about 23 metric tons.= $250 million today.I'd just like someone to present the evidence from the other societies and peoples attesting to the fact that they paid these tributes to a King Solomon of Israel.Can anyone supply this information?
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#41 I have evidence, verses and all but I don't know if you're really the type who deserves it, you're being quite a prick to me so frankly you get on the RM-block-list
No you don't have a single bit of evidence to support your claims. That is why you're only way out of the corner you have painted yourself into is to block me. I didn't think there were any here more ridiculously hilarious than ethang5 and mopac, but you take the clown cake, Hahhahahahhahahhahah
Are you asking for proof that the Spirit made Jesus in the flesh? It didn't.
Then why did you say the spirit did make Jesus in the flesh?
Look at your post 38 above
# 38The spirit made Jesus in the flesh completely destabilised as being the only way to God and only true form of what to worship.
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@keithprosser
I believe Jesus was conceived and born in the usual way, to an ordinary married couple.
"ordinary" to you maybe. But his pedigree shows him to be of Royalty via David and of the family of the Aaronite/Levite priesthood making him High Priest and King with dual authority: a position I believe he didn't want.
So this would make him and his "ordinary married couple" parents, a little more than "ordinary".
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