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@Timid8967
The contradictions prove you are false. Just like the half truths in the bible. One rule for all. Let's have some consistency, please.I am the atheist not you. [A] " I happen to believe these scriptures and believe all these biblical characters existed. I look at them in an historical sense and don't have a 'religious' bone in my body. I believe these scriptures are trying to tell us something , I also believe they are also hiding something. I believe there is a truer story below the surface of these scriptures that, for whatever reason simply couldn't be told openly at the time. For example, from my own research and understanding, I have good reason to believe the Baptist and Jesus were half brothers and serious rivals. I believe Jesus had a hand in the baptists death". .https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3236/post-links/136488That is pretty clear.
Good.
And thank you again for highlighting all of those links to my threads that scrutinise and question the unreliable ambiguous half stories that make up the scriptures. Of which I am sure you approve.
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@Timid8967
I don't recall you saying - anything about finding the answer in the bible.
That is because the bible doesn't fkn answer my questions , you clown. HENCE "how did they know"?
Do you think the fact that I think Jesus is a myth and think that the bible should be burnt - is a reason for me not to answer your question?
No. I appreciated the replies and possibilities that you presented , but that is all they were. Which led to more questions, didn't it . princess?
The book is a story - I don't believe that goldilocks is real either but I can attempt to speculate about the prince that saves her or the type of hair she has.
And you can speculate all day. Just do not try present your speculation as fact without evidence. It is a sly habit of Christians to do this and they do it often.
I think Adam Smith's book on capitalism is a bit rich too - but I can still answer questions about the author.
But in this case you didn't answer anything , did you, princess? You could only"speculate", because you actually believe the bible to be all a "myth", don't you? A book that should be condemned to the flames.
I on the other hand, do not dismiss the bible outright and certainly don't believe the Christian holy book should be condemned to the flames as you do.
But I don't have the same agenda as you.
What agenda would that be?
I want to see them burned
Yes you make it clear that you are anti everything religion.
you just want to prove them wrong.
Or right. SO!?
I merely answered.
No, by your own admission, you "speculated" and offered possibilities. I do the same sometimes. And that speculation and those possibilities are there to be challenged and or countered. As I did above.
I can't figure out why you think this is a problem.
I have no problem with your speculation. Speculation can be challenged and countered, as I did above with your own speculation. . Just don't complain when I speculate likewise as I may do, and do, from time to time which you or anyone else is welcome to challenge and or counter.
Now. Off you go.
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I am not an atheist https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/811/post-links/36386
Correct. As the link explains:
I am not an atheist in the sense that I believe that more than one - so called -god was worshipped at any given time by the ancients and Christians do not.
So I would say that actually makes me a theisthttps://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/927/post-links/41322
Correct. As the link explains:
In the sense that I do believe that these LORDS existed.
I am not a believer. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1985/post-links/86718
Correct.
As the link explains:
" I am not a believer but I believe I have better explanations for most of the ambiguous, enigmatic half stories that make up the NT scripture than those that claim to be faithful followers of The Christ and the scriptures".
I am not sure how someone such as yourself would describe me.https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3236/post-links/136488
Correct. As the link clearly explains my position:
Brother D Thomas said " As you being an Atheist",
I replied:
[A] " I happen to believe these scriptures and believe all these biblical characters existed. I look at them in an historical sense and don't have a 'religious' bone in my body. I believe these scriptures are trying to tell us something , I also believe they are also hiding something. I believe there is a truer story below the surface of these scriptures that, for whatever reason simply couldn't be told openly at the time. For example, from my own research and understanding, I have good reason to believe the Baptist and Jesus were half brothers and serious rivals. I believe Jesus had a hand in the baptists death".
I do marvel at times about you theists. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3564/post-links/152455
Correct:
And I do still marvel at theists. And as the link clearly explains my position why:
"I do marvel at times about you theists. You appear to feel that you are in the position where you can tell the atheist to prove for you that there is or isn't a god. And that an atheist has to prove for you the bible to be correct or incorrect forgetting all the time that it is YOU the theist and the bible that is making all the claims.
You and your flock are claiming the bible is truth. "What is truth" ? asked Pilate
"The myth of Christ has served us well" . said Pope Leo X
Theists write and speak as if they existed or still exist. It is up to the atheist them, should he wish to , to challenge what it is that these sycophantic fawning theist actually believe in . https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4023/post-links/168480
Correct again. As the link explains;
"It is my contention that these subjects should be discussed weather or not one believes "gods" existed or not. The point you are missing is that millions of people over millions of years have worshiped these beings in one form or another and millions simply do not believe as such but it doesn't stop them discussing these subjects. Theists write and speak as if they existed or still exist. It is up to the atheist then, should he wish to , to challenge what it is that these sycophantic fawning theist actually believe in" .
I have no religious beliefs. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4120/post-links/170929
Correct again: as the link explains:
"Don't think for a second that I hold the same religious beliefs as the Brother, because you wouldn't be more wrong. I have no religious beliefs. The Brother just happens to believe what the bible ACTUALLY says without room for misinterpretation or misunderstanding. He is honest about his god and scriptures yet he is forever being mocked for his honesty and how he presents the scripture. At least he doesn't BARE FACE LIE about what the scripture actually states".
The atheist isn't making the claims., what the atheist/me does is question the claims made by Christians and you have either to explain them ( not to be confused with explain them AWAY) with logical fact or you simply ignore me and go away, that is your responsibility and you owe it to your faith. I don't have to explain a damn thing, at all. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4199/post-links/173452
Correct. The link explains my position and I stand by that statement. And it is something I am sure you believe too.
But I am not in the slightest a religious person, which helps. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4216/post-links/175790
Correct again: the link explains my position perfectly:
RationalMadman wrote: "I know it a lot but not entirely, don't want to waste my life on a fictional tale".
And I replied:
"I can't say I blame you. It is a long slog (years in fact) and it will engulf you if you let it because it has so many strands and stories withing stories. I'm lucky, I happen to love the subject and wallow in it. But I am not in the slightest a religious person, which helps.
Mind how you go".
I am the atheist not you. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5246/post-links/229552
Correct: As the link explains:
Tradesecret wrote: "you continue to live in a la la fantasy world where you think your interpretation is the ONLY one possible2.
I replied;
"No, that will be YOU CHRISTIANS that has done exactly that for over 2,000 years. I can always change my ideas and opinions on the scriptures. I am the atheist not you". And I am sure that you can agree with that to, Dimtim.
I don't know how many times will take for you to understand my position of the scriptures, Dimtim , so I will simply refer you to [A] above AGAIN!
Can you please tell the forum whether you are an atheist, not an atheist, not a believer, a theist, or a liar or a fraud? Or perhaps you really are just confused?
Please read - and take in - all of the above. I think that you will find that you agree with most of what I have said if your anti everything religion isn't fake?
So. Off you trot, princess.
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@Timid8967
But how did these gospel writers know the words spoken when they were spoken in the absence of anyone else.?Stephen you are a funny lad. You know the answer to these questions. It must be one of the the following:1. the NT is correct and Jesus died and rose from the dead. If so, then Jesus told the authors of the gospels the stories about what happened after he rose from the dead in respect of Pilate,
Indeed, as you say " if so"? And as you also say, the Jesus story is a "myth", isn't it?...
Dimtim wrote: "why give air to a subject that ought to be closed down? It seems to me - the more you bring this sort of stuff up - the more air time and the larger the myth becomes. "#18Dimtim wrote:"it my subjective position that evolution proves god is a myth. [.................................] then obviously he does not exist. #11
or when he was alive in relation to Satan when he was talking to his disciples. and they then wrote them down.
Thank you for highlighting another one of those anomalous biblical half stories . And of course there is no evidence that Jesus relayed his meeting with Satan to anyone at all.
And as you believe. The bible is an "unreliable book" that should be put on the "book burning fire and destroyed " ,isn't it.
Dimtim wrote: " I
think the best place for the bible is on a burning pile of books" #8
Dimtim wrote: " It
is tenor of the bible as an entirety that gives me reason for it be
destroyed. #14
[A] I mean. If I was a follower of this god Jesus, the first thing I would have asked Jesus on his return from meeting Satan the most reviles character known to mankind was ` who the fk is Satan to question and test you my GOD!!! ' AND recorded it ? And if I was a sycophant, I probable would have asked ` what did he look like lord, did you get his autograph `!? But even this, what would be obvious question isn't even recorded? You see, the more claims made the more anomalies which in turn leads to raising even more awkward questions concerning this "myth".
2. Your position is correct that Jesus did not die but cleverly hid his death - again meaning that he was able to tell the stories to the authors of the gospels what happened.
See[A] above
3. the author's made it up.
Someone certainly appears to have added to the "myth", don't they, Dimtim?
Can you think of a reason why Jesus would not relate the story of the disciples about his test in the wilderness with Satan?Can you think of a reason why Jesus would not relate the story with Pilate after his supposed resurrection?
Can you? And you seem to be forgetting, someone saying something happened in the absence of someone else doesn't mean it happened. And there is absolutely not a shred of evidence that Jesus did tell them anything about the meeting anyway is there, Dimtim?
I can think of reasons why the authors might have made it up
Nice, lets hear it.
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@Intelligence_06
But how did these gospel writers know the words spoken when they were spoken in the absence of anyone else.?They didn’t.
So in your honest opinion the stories are contrived?
Stop trying to prove the Bible(or even disprove).
Why? This is a religion forum and the last time I read it, the bible and all the stories contained there - in are supposed to be the subject of religion.
It is meaningless.
To you, it maybe.
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On these occasions Jesus was either alone or only there were only two present at the time?
Jesus is tested by Satan alone.
Matthew 4:1-11
Only two present
Jesus prays alone. Matthew 26:38-45
Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”
40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners.
Jesus speaks with Pilate alone. John 18:33-38
33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
34 “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”
35 “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”
36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.
Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate.
Indeed Mr Pilate, what is truth?
But how did these gospel writers know the words spoken when they were spoken in the absence of anyone else.?
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@Timid8967
A question for atheists.How many of you have come from a religious background? And what was this background? And what convinced you to become an atheist?Was it a journey or an epiphany? Did it cause problems with your family or partner at the time?And are you still connected somehow with the people from your old religious affiliation?
That's six questions.... in any language
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@zedvictor4
Honest opinions about religionzedvictor4 wrote: Fantastical solutions in the absence of understanding.
A+1
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@BrotherDThomas
S/he runs away from his own threads , Brother. You really don't expect him/her to stick around on anyone else's' do you?
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@Yassine
More BS. No one even truly knows who the authors of the gospels even were. The names given to them may as well have been plucked out of thin air.And an empty tomb is evidence only that a tomb was empty.Why would anyone need to "roll away the stone" Mark 16:3 when it is said that Jesus was able to walk through the wall of a locked room? John 20:26.Why were they all shocked and surprised and in fear that he had "risen", when he had been telling them all along that this was going to happen?The whole story is contrived and you just can't face it.- You seem quite capable of constructing a sound argument. How come you run away when asked to debate?
I am simply not interested, Yassine. I am happy here on the open forum sharing my opinions, thoughts and theories.
But don't let me derail your thread. I only piped in because the Reverend claimed this utter nonsense:
Tradesecret wrote: " the biblical narrative makes sense and is clearly based upon sound evidence". #28
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@Tradesecret
And the biblical narrative makes sense and is clearly based upon sound evidence.
More BS. No one even truly knows who the authors of the gospels even were. The names given to them may as well have been plucked out of thin air.
And an empty tomb is evidence only that a tomb was empty.
Why would anyone need to "roll away the stone" Mark 16:3 when it is said that Jesus was able to walk through the wall of a locked room? John 20:26.
Why were they all shocked and surprised and in fear that he had "risen", when he had been telling them all along that this was going to happen?
The whole story is contrived and you just can't face it.
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@ RationalMadman,
That is the entire point of graves but in reality you can always talk to the dead, their souls aren't located at the grave.
But it is referred to as the "last resting place", by many. And don't the so called religious believe that the dead remain in the grave until ` called`?
I admit to having a mumble at my parents and sisters graves many years ago. They all died before the age of 50, not a patch on old Methuselah, eh. But this was simply a thinking out loud-mumble.
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@Tradesecret
So are you now going to expand or are you going to cave under the slightest scrutiny of your own comments and reveal to us the " another kind of death associated with ritual with higher orders with a secret society. "? ". AGAIN!!!I don’t see what your problem is stephen.
So that is another cowardly, NO!, then. No one will be surprised by this, Pastor.
Off you trot then.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Rumor has it there was some sort of virus going around for a bit that had a bad effect on the world economy, but I have yet to confirm that.
So you may have reason then, to believe that the world economy has (been) collapsed and it is this that they are "building back better" which encompasses building everything "new"?
Well one could look at the other things that are going on at the very same time. World wide disasters. Famine, plagues and diseases just for starters.
I am not religious in the slightest, but one cannot ignore this:
“Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” Jesus answered them, “Watch out that no one misleads you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Make sure that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is still to come. For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these things are the beginning of birth pains. [.............................................] and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold. But the person who endures to the end will be saved".Matthew 24:3-13
This is before we get to Revelation that speaks of the extortionate price for a loaf of bread,etc
To my mind, there could be only one way Jesus could predict these events that come at the end of every age; being a Royal, he had simply been taught about them. It had all happened before at every transition from one house to the "new" incoming house. And, in his case, it was the transition from the ram to the fish.
And I'll tell you this, it was no coincidence that both the Archbishop of Canterbury in the UK and the Pope in Rome both stood down from their posts that at one time, should have been held for life.
All good stuff, eh.
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@janesix
Creepy.
Depends how one looks at it. I am simply pointing out to you that is very feasible that world leaders , Monarchs and perhaps government are all still "looking for the signs" that dictate our lives here " on earth as it is in the heavens".
And so off topic,
You do mention "world ages, precession, equinoxes, time, Aries/Pisces, Aquarius, and Jesus " in your OP, janesix and all relating to the sky and astronomy and what is going on above our heads in plain sight..
but couldn't that guy even comb his hair?
Hairdressing is off topic, Jane
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@janesix
@janesix
Probably just those he was talking to.
Yes I know. And he was only talking to them about the end of ages/ times because they wouldn't know being puppet priests installed in their position by Rome just as the puppet king was.. sometimes they even purchased the Priesthood.
I don't think he's saying people will never be able to predict the signs of the times.
No he isn't. He's simply saying to those priests at the time that those priests of 2000 years ago couldn't ` read` the signs in the sky because they hadn't been taught to do so. This is how and why he was able to level their ignorance of the ages/times, against them.
It is quite obvious that the field of astronomy/astrology has speared far and wide and to most classes in our modern age. But to those of the time, it was a astronomical timetable, a very big clock and not astronomy for astronomy's sake and astronomy was a closed shop. It was and still is of high importance to royals and priests alike to this day.
Why do you think the Vatican has its own telescopes costing billions£££ placed around the globe. What do they need to know as they peer into gods Livingroom? Why is it do you think the Queen of England has her own astronomer? The last time I looked her hobbies were gardening, pigeon racing, stamp collecting and above all else, horse racing. It is because the tradition hasn't ever gone away, it is my belief that Monarchs around the world and religious institutions are still looking at/ for the `signs in the sky` as they were back then, and for the same reasons; the signs indicates that it is time to change, and in many ways. Could it be that we are experiencing these turbulent changes now?
I hear many world leaders using the same soundbites of late and one that keeps leaping out to me is they all speak of "building back better" ? What have they dismantled or are in the process of dismantling to have to build back !? Why are they all using the same soundbite. Do they know something we don't or shouldn't know? has the clock struck water o'clock?
Have you at all noticed the water sign popping up on your tv screen lately where they were discussing " build back better" at the recent world leaders summit?
Isn't the sign of a man pouring water over the earth the sign of Aquarius and in ancient Egypt it was wavy lines?
Johnson and Merkle
Johnson
Biden
USA Biden: Build Back Better
UK Johnson: Build back better . https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/build-back-better-our-plan-for-growth/build-back-better-our-plan-for-growth-html
France and Germany and others:
An Extraordinary Gathering to Build Back Better
Canada, Nigeria . This list goes on.
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☆▪○⊙•°°°° I TALK TO GRAVES °°°°•⊙○▪☆WTF?
I think you'll find that most people do especially the most recent bereaved.. If they believe they get a reply or revelation is another matter altogether.
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@janesix
“When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times".Matthew 16:3
"and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:20
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age? Matthew 24:3
The bible is riddled throughout with astronomy from the time of the Adam. This may well have been the reason that the book of Enoch was excluded from the book altogether. Josephus mentions a "peculiar wisdom" that Seth's children possessed of which you can read below.
These verses mean exactly what they say, Jaynesix. Jesus here is speaking of his (house - the fish's) time to rule was arriving and he would be the representative of that house to rule hear on earth in the duel roll of Priest and King. (and that is more than likely the reason why they had to get rid of John the Baptist who it appears to have believed that he was the `chosen one`and not Jesus. John was born six months before Jesus in the old age - the outgoing age of Moses, the ram, you see.
Josephus Antiquities:
"All
these[ Seth's offspring] proved to be of good dispositions. They also
inhabited the same country without dissensions, and in an happy
condition, without any misfortunes falling upon them, till they died.
[About An. 4300] They also were the inventors of that peculiar sort
of wisdom, which is concerned with the heavenly bodies, and their
order. And that their inventions might not be lost before they were
sufficiently known, upon Adam’s prediction that the world was to be
destroyed at one time by the force of fire,
and at another time by the violence and quantity of water,
they made two pillars: the
one of brick, the other of stone: they inscribed their discoveries on
them both: that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by
the flood, the pillar of stone might remain, and exhibit those
discoveries to mankind: and also inform them that there was another
pillar of brick erected by them. Now this remains in the land
of Siriad to
this day".
It appears that the reason Jesus was able to predict the things he did was because he had been taught the same "peculiar wisdom" and what comes when the transition begins.
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@Tradesecret
The topic is about different types of death. If you have nothing to add please leave the thread. If you do please begin by answering the question.You may begin.
I would , but you have spoken of " Some try and introduce another kind of death associated with ritual with higher orders with a secret society. "
If you could just expand on that a little we may get somewhere. Simply tell me which "secret society" you had in mind when you spoke of "some trying to introduce another kind of death associated with ritual with higher orders with a secret society. "?
It is interesting that you have mentioned three kinds of death, yet are not revealing this "other kind ".
IMO; The so called raising of Lazarus was only from a ritualistic "death" as was the "raising" of the "dead" daughter of Jairus. So I would call these "ritual" deaths and raisings, simple spiritual "deaths", which I have covered already in many of my threads.
So are you now going to expand or are you going to cave under the slightest scrutiny of your own comments. AGAIN!!!
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@Tradesecret
It’s taken me a while to get back to you on this subject.
It is not unusual for the lonely to resurrect old threads of mine when they need attention. Ethang5 used to do it often and usually after a long absence. Just like you!
So you will have to quote me as to what you are referencing and alleging what I have said.
So, when you are ready, of you go.
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@Tradesecret
Typical avoiding of the question by asking further questions.
Yes it is a habit I learned from you in particular, Chaplain.
So I take it You are not about to explain or expend on your comments. No surprises there then.
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@Yassine
In the case of the story of the Satanic verses, everything that could go wrong went wrong. The chains of narration are broken, the narrators are unreliable, the story is as inconsistent as it could be, & every single report contradicts the others.
10/10 for originality!
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@Yassine
I was of the understanding (in English of course) that the event is recorded by the earliest Islamic sources on Muhammad's life.So are they lying?you keep repeating, yes.
They were different questions. But if your answer is yes they are all liars, tell us why and how those Islamic sources are lying about the Satanic verses?
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@fauxlaw
Words are the weakest of weapons
Not according to your god they are not. But you wouldn't know this because of your own bible ignorance, and you a " High Priest!!!
for those who only use them as weapons
If anyone has attempted to weaponise words that will be you. Such a short memory you have there priest. I haven't forgotten your first ever comments to me.
because they generally backfire.
Only on those that mean to weapons words for lack of facts or those that simply cannot face facts. And resort to ad hominem comments for simple lack of commonsense.
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@Tradesecret
Some try and introduce another kind of death associated with ritual with higher orders with a secret society.
Who are the "some" and which "secrets society" are you referring to?
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@Yassine
I was of the understanding (in English of course) that the event is recorded by the earliest Islamic sources on Muhammad's life. So are they lying? Or are yours and their rebuttals just another load of old cobblers that have been invented to save the embarrassment of the "greatest prophet that ever lived"?- Since you have so much knowledge about the subject, you can help your friend FLRW with his case.
You missed the questions, Yassine.
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@fauxlaw
Yassine is perfectly correct. ................. Yassine is just as sympathetic with Arabic...........Yassine's common greeting,....................For all Yassine may know,
Some serious licking going on there priest.
And I am confident Yassine doesn't need a bible ignorant fraud like you to spout bullshite apologetics on his behalf , "high Priest". #36
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@Tradesecret
Lol! Stephen, for someone who thinks the bible is full of half truths,
Half stories, you clown. It never does half truths it tells out right lies.
And you appear extremely desperate to converse with someone. Even if its me! Now that is well worth a "LOL"
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@fauxlaw
I'd say that's for Yassine to criticize whether reading the Quran in English is pointless, or not, if he's a mind to do so.
Well just like you , he too has jumped on the apologetic excuse of that one would never understand the "true context" unless one is able to read the Quran in Arabic. Or did you ignore my question to him and the response of your new found "friend" .... for now.
I, too, am a student of Greek, and can confirm the Bringer's contextual argument is spot on, and Stephen is completely dismissing it, to his laughable credit.
Include you pocket mouse; always a good source of advice.
Well my "pocket mouse" has shown you to be a complete and utter bible ignorant fraud many a time now " High Priest". #36
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@Yassine
Do you wanna debate: "The satanic verses are real"? I would argue that they are fictitious,[............]
Stop your silly games. Are you saying that the Quran "reformed" when Muhammad woke up one day to realise that those verses ( speaking favourable and all fluffy of other deities) were given to him, " the greatest prophet that ever lived" in a revelation by Satan.
Please correct me if I have that wrong.- Yes. The story is fiction.
So Muhammad then didn't have "revelations from Satan" that have come to be known as the Satanic verses?
I was of the understanding (in English of course) that the event is recorded by the earliest Islamic sources on Muhammad's life. So are they lying? Or are yours and their rebuttals just another load of old cobblers that have been invented to save the embarrassment of the "greatest prophet that ever lived"?
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@zedvictor4
Though you failed to the acknowledge the similar "explosion of hatred" towards Islam.
That is interesting, Vic .
I am of the opinion that not many in the West ever gave Islam a second thought until 9/11, that includes myself. Although I had read of Churchill and Gladstone and a few others warning many years ago about the dangers of Islam.
Sir
William Muir (1819-1905) said; “the sword of Muhammad and the Quran are the most fatal
enemies of civilisation, liberty and truth which the world has ever
known... an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will".
Winston
Churchill 1874 - 1965: "Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies
in a dog".
William
Gladstone 1809 –1898 Quran, an accursed book, so long as there is this book there will be
no peace in the world.
Winston
Churchill 1874 – 1965 The
religion of blood and war is face to face with that of peace. Luckily
the religion of peace is usually the better armed. The Mahommedan
religion increases, instead of lessening, the fury of intolerance.
Propagated by the sword, and a form of madness.
Winston Churchill 1899: “Individual
Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the
religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No
stronger retrograde force exists in the world.”
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@zedvictor4
Well.... Issues surrounding the novel in question, were media driven by both camps, in respect of the social climate.
And the Ayatollah and the Imams of the Muslim world had nothing to do at all with incitement in the Muslim world where the majority cannot read or write in their own language never mind English?
This explosion of hate towards the West should have been the wake up call for Western governments, imo.
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@fauxlaw
I have read English translations of the Quran twice,
Well, as you may well have guessed. Reading the Quran in English - just like the bible (according to you), is not worth the paper it is written on.
Marvellous isn't it, that when both these holy books written and read in English are scrutinised and questioned, that both Christians and Muslims both come up with the same lame excuse that one must understand the original ancient language that they first were written in, to understand the true "context". To your "laughable credit"
I, too, am a student of Greek, and can confirm the Bringer's contextual argument is spot on, and Stephen is completely dismissing it, to his laughable credit.
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@Yassine
I have asked you why it cannot reform? Are you suggesting that it can?- Do you want to debate the topic? Or is this just to converse? If so, there have already been reformation movements in Islam, namely Salafism.
Interesting. And what part of the Quran has been reformed? "The satanic verses"? Those will be the verses that Muhammad said had been given to him by Satan that he, "the greatest of all the prophets", had "mistaken" for divine revelation, would they?
Please correct me if I have that wrong.
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@BrotherDThomas
FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms,[.................................]and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times, and goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor, says that the Bible is a FRAUD, and calls the Christian faith as DISHONEST, and still wants to be called a Christian, and has run away from 18 posts to him in one thread alone,YOUR VERY BOM BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE IN POST #45!: "...... Fauxlaw wrote: You may be surprised to know I do not believe God is the total cause of anything."You state that Jesus, as the serial killer Jewish Yahweh God incarnate, is not the total cause of anything? HUH? BOOK OF MORMON: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." (Colossians 1:16).How BOM Bible stupid can you get?!
Well he can't get any worse surly , Brother, can he?
Fauxlax wrote "and commands nothing by way of thoughts and actions of man, leaving them entirely to their free agency ..."WTF! Again, you do not have FREE WILL, whereas Jesus, not chance, decides what happens in human affairs, including the FACT that you remain as Bible stupid as Tradesecret within this esteemed forum!1. “The lot is cast into the lap, but it's every decision is from the LORD” (Proverbs 16:33).2. "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand (Proverbs 19:21).3. "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps" (Proverbs 16:9).4. JESUS SAID: "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope (Jeremiah 29:11).As if your comical Moron, excuse me, Mormon Faith isn't embarrassing enough, it is unbelievable in how you can continue to show yourself within this forum where I and many others have literally Bible Slapped you Silly ad infinitum, and will continue to do so at your embarrassing expense in front of the membership! Get it? Are you going to run and cry to the moderators again?
I spoke too soon then,Brother.
But in all fairness to Fauxlaw, Brother, maybe it's because you are not a High Priest as he claims to be#36 or are you a student of the ancient Greek language#28, as he also claims to be?
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@Yassine
Since you have an opinion on the inability of Islam to reform
I have asked you why it cannot reform? Are you suggesting that it can?
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@Yassine
Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like one of these >> ?- Can you not read the OP? It says: "debating topics"...
Yep. Your own title reads : "Who's in for some fun challenges?" .
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@Yassine
Why cannot Islam reform?- Is this the resolution you're proposing?
Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like one of these >> ?
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@zedvictor4
Nonetheless, ideologies foster nutcases, and nutcases can incite the gullible.
Who can ever forget the incitement over a novel in countries where the majority of the population doesn't even speak English never mind read in their own languages?
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@Intelligence_06
Are these topics even “fun” at all?
Maybe because religion is such a serious subject. As someone here once said to me;
" Do
you have any conception of how dangerous religion is and in
particular Christianity"? History shows otherwise. History shows how dangerous it is". #153
There is nothing "fun" about ideologies that promote indoctrination and or oppression.
This would have made for a decent discussion on its own thread Intelligence_06.
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@Yassine
but no different to the Christian that wants us to believe the god of the NT loves us when bible shows the clear opposite. This is what comes of adopting a god from a time and culture they knew nothing about.- I agree, Christians have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to twist the words of their books.
Or just ignore the written facts, just as you do.
I think I am done here. We have gone full circle.- Do you ever admit it to yourself when you see truth?
You keep forgetting that I do not have a dog in the fight where religious bullshite is concerned.
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@Yassine
But not on the direct command of their god the Christ Jesus. This is the point that you are purposefully ignoring and cannot accept.- You have it backwards. The one doing the ignoring is you. "bring them here and slaughter them before me."
And as I have already said - which is a parable about the judgment of god and only he will do the judging and punishing. And I have also readily agreed, that this all seems very contradictory to other verses in the NT but such in the nature of the jumbled ambiguous mess that is New Testament.
Is it correct that to truly understand the Quran in context one has to learn it in Arabic?- Absolutely.
And this is exactly what I thought you would say. You are no different from the Christians that spout the same bullshite that one needs to understand the New Testament in its ancient language every time they too find themselves stuck for apologetic excuses. They are far too stupid to realise that every time they spout this shite that they render all bibles written in English, pointless and totally unreliable.
You are no different from they.
Does every one of the 1.8 billion adherents to Islam all speak Arabic?
Quran 51 - You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.- Yes, taking Christians or Jews as allies against Muslims is treason.
Does it say "against MUSLIMS". Or does it mean simply not believing in Allah and his self appointed prophet, as most of the vile quranic verses all seem to be about.
So far you have no provided a quote from the Quran which sanctions killing other than in self-defense & to establish peace.
You are entitled to your opinion. What were the Muslims defending when they invaded Spain? Or the Indian sub continent?
You are simply full of shite Yassine, but no different to the Christian that wants us to believe the god of the NT loves us when bible shows the clear opposite. This is what comes of adopting a god from a time and culture they knew nothing about.
I think I am done here. We have gone full circle.
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@fauxlaw
Savior of man from perpetual death following mortality by resurrection to life everlasting in perfect bodies, and redeemed from the influence of evil forever more, conditional on keeping the commandments of God.What a shame your all powerful god didn't think of doing this way back in the garden of Eden, isn't it, High Priest? Think of all the mindless slaughter he wouldn't have had to command us mere mortals to commit on his command for "his name sake" over the last billion years?What a shame it is you do not understand the scriptures as given. Hint: Creation does not stop in Genesis 1.
So. My point is that if your god had nipped all the "sin" BS in the bud back then,(or had not created it in the first place) then HE wouldn't have had to command the murder of billions of innocents or would HE have had to offer his only son for a blood sacrifice, would he, now, High Priest?
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@Yassine
Here is a short list of wars by Christians/West since the Reformation with a toll of 515 million deaths:
But not on the direct command of their god the Christ Jesus. This is the point that you are purposefully ignoring and cannot accept.
The god of the Quran on the other hand commands that people die for him:
Quran
(9:38-39) - "O
ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked
to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do
ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the
comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go
forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in
your place." So we see clearly that even those Muslims that do believe in god will BE PUNISHED for NOT waging holy jihad.
The god of the Quran orders people murdered simply for not believing in him:
Quran
8:12 - "I
will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
The Christian god of the New Testament on the other hand commands " love thy neighbour" , "turn the other cheek". "Love one another as I have loved you". The Christian god is continually pro life, where-as the ever so ` loving and tolerant ` god the Quran , speaks for himself, doesn't he;
Quran
4:89 - They
wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike.
So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the
cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them
wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or
helper.
Quran 51 - You,
who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies.
They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to
them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah
guides not the wrongdoing people.
Is it correct that to truly understand the Quran in context one has to learn it in Arabic?
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@Timid8967
You are the one bragging.
If you say so.
I can accept you not knowing the difference.
I don't have to answer your questions.
Like I said. You caved at the first problematic question raised by your own comments.
it is my thread not yours.
Indeed it is an you have derailed it within just a few posts by going against your own wishes and turning it into a "slanging board"... #1, withing just a few posts. You just couldn't help yourself , could you , dim?
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@Timid8967
Ok. But you are the one bragging -
If you say so. But then this makes me no better or worse than all those here claiming to be "high priests#36" Pastors and Chaplains #20 that claim higher education and "qualified" to speak on all things religion and something you yourself know absolutely nothing about>>>>
You appear to be doing quite a lot of thinking for them on this and many other threads too.
so please answer the question
I think I asked you to explain your comment. I didn't make it. It is you that is doing all the evading, princess from the second you were called , you caved.
Would you like another go?
So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true.Define a "traditional Christian " for us. And what is it they " say is true"?Why don't you answer the question for yourself?
Because I have politely asked you to. And it not "irrelevant" to the thread, your own thread, if you have raised the point about what YOU have called the
"traditional Christian", on your own thread, which you have and did.
Now, off you go.
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@Timid8967
And isn't it a bit rude to continue calling them " Mormons" when Fauxlaw has explicitly said:
First, we prefer to not be referred to as "Mormons." That was tolerated for a long while, but it was recognized as one of the reasons why people not familiar with the church classify us as non-Christians. Officially, the Church is known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, #3
You are correct, I should not call Mormons Mormon, I should refer to them as LDS.
I know.
And should you need reminding yet again, of your own plea as to the direction that YOU wish your own thread to go? I will remind you.
You are the one with the bragging rights. Go for it.
Nice of you to suggest that, but I don't see it that way.
Those "rights" that you mention belong to them that go around calling themselves Pastors, Priests , Ministers and Chaplains that actually do claim to know better than anyone else on the planet simply because they have awarded themselves these titles. I am sure you know the type I mean don't you?
The type that you have called
And their "movements":
" No wonder we see so much weirdness in the Christian movement. "#141
Please remember that you started this shite dimtim. I asked you to remember what you had said and requested . And it went clean out of the window once you were challenged, didn't it?
And while we are on the subject, didn't you once inform us all here that:
You appear to be doing quite a lot of thinking for them on this and many other threads too.
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@Timid8967
So this is in contrast to what traditional Christians would say is true.Define a "traditional Christian " for us. And what is it they " say is true"?Why don't you answer the question for yourself?
Because I have politely asked you to. And it not "irrelevant" to the thread, your own thread, if you have raised the point about what YOU have called the
"traditional Christian", on your own thread, which you have and did.
But I am not here to argue a point.
So don't argue, simply explain your definition of " traditional Christian".
And I am not arguing anything.... at all. I have asked you to explain your comment.
This topic is about Mormons. It is not about traditional Christians
Yes, traditional Christians that you introduced into the thread, your own thread.
After all you you are the one bragging about your brilliance having studied religion and the bible for 40 years."but I have studied religion for over 40 years. So do not make the mistake of believing I know nothing of the scriptures." https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/506/post-links/22710
Didn't you once not so long ago on this thread asked members : "Please do not use this as a slanging board "#1 ? It hasn't taken you long to start dragging your own thread down into a slanging match has it? I did ask you to remember that it was you that said that. .#4 Stephen
You can call it "bragging" if you wish. I would call it simply stating a fact. But yes. I have studied the scriptures for over four decades. And this why I am puzzled that you, after reading the bible just once AND dismissing it , can go on to talk about what it is a "traditional Christian" is, when the supposed leader of the Christian movement never once even says the word's Christian, or Christianity, you see. And it is this type of question that comes after studying the scriptures for over four decades with bible ignorant and dismissive "anti theists" such as you. You still are a ardent "anti theist", aren't you? Or was that yet another of your rigid statements that you wish you hadn't ever made!?
If you do not wish to be questioned on your own comments don't comment or at least think out your comments before you post.
And I remind you once more to keep your own wish in mind, before you begin to derail your own thread simply because you have been challenged.:
OK
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@Wylted
but the bible nk is fine with you having pleasure fucking your wife
Many, fking your many wives . And all your thousands of bits on the side, including your best friends wife , if one cares to read the story of King David, son of god.
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