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@Discipulus_Didicit
What does Mathew say about the Sabbath?
That's simply enough. If you are so interested you should read Matthews gospel and you will find out. Simples, eh. Don't ask me again please. Because as I am often reminded, ` I am not a teacher and not here to teach anyone `.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
No sorry. I used to do so along with every claim I made about what the scriptures say and convey.
But now I am simply fed up of having to spoon feed those that claim to be Christians whilst not having a clue about what is written in the scriptures.
It is not too hard to work out for yourself if one reads what Mathew says about the Sabbath?
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@fauxlaw
What about my profile? Non of your damn businessI could not care less about your profile.
Then why did you even mention mention my profile? #35 How many times do you need reminding? Stones and glass houses, you keep forgetting that don't you.
And your profile is public knowledge on THIS FORUM for all to see and read and to see in the wider WWW and YOU made it so, not me. And I didn't "leave any shyte about" unless you are telling lies about yourself and your qualifications and achievements of course. Then that would explain why it was you forgot to mention that you are a student in ancient Greek while freely and openly telling us in your DebateArt profile that you are fluent in so many languages but didn't mention Greek.
Now then, what about this proof? Do you have any thing at all to support your claim of god, gods fathers, father, fathers, farther ? >>>>>#2 fauxlaw
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Anyone that has taken the time to read these scriptures will know that they ever hardly agree on anything at all.
But one would expect that of all the events in the life of Jesus, the crucifixion would be the one single event that they could't confuse. After all, Christianity is built upon the belief in the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus so how come there are so much inconsistency between these ` eye witness accounts ` concerning such a pinnacle moment in the life of the Christ.
We have a man, nailed in one place, he is not moving around he is static; so anyone standing there simply couldn't get anything wrong about the events that occurred in the short space of time between being "nailed" on the cross and allegedly dying .
Looking first at what led up to this barbaric execution we have Matthew & Mark telling us that Jesus was tried AND sentenced by the Jewish priests of the Sanhedrin.
Luke says that Jesus was tried by the Sanhedrin but not sentenced by them.
Yet according to John Jesus doesn't even appear before the Sanhedrin at all!
Jesus then is is taken to his place of execution to be crucified. Or was it as Paul suggests, a gibbet? Or was it as Peter, the betrayer and denier three times of Christ who says his master was hung on a tree?
The same confusion and inconsistency is there concerning what the Christ had to say with his very last ` dying `breath, too.
The writers of these scriptures who we are expected to believe were also Jesus' close disciples cannot even remember their master and teachers dying words correctly either!
So don't be surprised to read that Mathew & Mark have Jesus quoting psalm 22 as his very last breath slips and wheezes from him.
But Luke has Jesus' last dying breath as quoting psalm 31.
But for you that don't like or accept this as "gospel truth" how about John's account that simply has Jesus saying `I am thirsty ` and ` it is finished `. (why would anyone give vinegar to a thirsty man?)
Then we have Joseph of Arimathea going to ask Pilate for the` body ` of Jesus so he can bury him. Pilate is shocked to learn that Jesus had died so quickly and asks for a second opinion. But why was he surprised? Jesus had by all account had already been beaten to near death before being hung on a cross, gibbet or tree. He had also been the speared in the side. it is also said to be an act of mercy to quicken the death of people crucified by breaking the legs. But Jesus hadn't had his legs broken.
According to Matthew Jesus had foretold that ;
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth".
But I'm afraid that Jesus' abacus must have been missing a bead or two and he had got his maths a little askew. Because according to the gospels, Jesus died on Friday and ` rose` on the following Sunday and so spending only TWO nights " in the heart of the earth "/
And there is the fact that Jonah didn't or hadn't died before being "swallowed" .
Marks gospel tells us that when some of the women that Jesus used to mooch and sponge off went to the Tomb that they merely saw a man in a white robe inside.
Luke tells us that it was two men in brilliant cloths that suddenly appeared by their side out of thin air.
Matthew, one shouldn't be surprised, as usual has to go one better adding sound effects and miraculous visuals:
"There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men".
And to think the very foundation of Christianity relies on these confusing inconsistencies.
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@Timid8967
So filthy you keep repeating it -
No. I was just reminding YOU of YOUR OWN filthy disgusting words towards another forum member here, ME!
I would never "repeat" YOUR filthy disgusting words. You sure showed us your true colours didn't you?
I posted your filthy comment simply to show you that while stamping your feet and crying about staying on point, that you were writing filth like this to the membership.>>
Here you are >>>#272
Timid8967 Wrote:
" I thought you understood animal and pussy. Ask your god, it might help. Although it seems to be silent. Stephen is a dick."#272 <<< absolute uncalled for filth from you.
Was those filthy and disgusting words of yours staying on topic!!!?
Was that utter bile and filth adhering to the theme of the thread? My thread?
Now please stop giving me cause to keep having to remind you of your true colours and double standards?
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@fauxlaw
@Stephen
" I'm sure poundmeThomas will add this to my list of failures."poundmeThomas keeps a list, yeah? Calls me a Bible fool. And you're bothered that I respond with a reminder? Let him deal with it.
No I am not bothered in the slightest. My point was that you were saying the thread "had turned into a food fight". I simply reminded YOU that YOU had started the food fight and hadn't contributed FK ALL to a thread that you have called an "interesting subject".. Stones and glass houses.
Ask Abraham. He's the father of the two sides.Sarcasm? That's merely a suggestion to read the record.
But why the sarcasm? Dimtim had asked membership here a reasonable question, that you simply replied "ask Abraham". Seriously, was there any need for that?
Romans clearly offers us a variety of heavenly gloriesA simple understanding that there is more than heaven and hell.
That may well be, but Dimtim keeps reminding us, and me especially to stay on topic and not post anything irrelevant to his theme. You gave us multiple lines about Romans and their Gods. Although he himself has discussed many things apart from the theme of his own thread.
Sorry if youy're confused.
Nope. Not at all. So no need to apologise. I highlighted your own hypocrisy and double standards is all. i.e. It was YOU that started " the food fight" and contributed nothing to the OP.
like I said, stop cherry picking and read. All of it.
I have and do and have studied these scriptures for well over 40 years.
So when are you going to even attempt to answer the OP? Or have you forgotten his question?When? Seriously, in my post #17. If one wants to know a subject, go to the source.
Then why the fk didn't you just simply reply in that fashion to Dimtim? Could you not be a little kinder and more respectable and show him where his answer lies?
What biblical verses in particular show that the Muslim god and the Jew god are one and the same on not one and the same?
Just rudely shouting "ask Abraham" isn't going to get Dimtim anywhere or even provide and answer for him is it? Where about in the story of Abraham would Dimtim find his answer to his very reasonable question? Where is your guidance as a Christian?
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@fauxlaw
So, it isn't sarcasm when you dish it out?
No. I can guarantee you that was pure sarcasm. Obviously you wouldn't know sarcasm dished out in any language.
Such as, by your profile, what does one learn?
What about my profile? Non of your damn business or a requirement of signing up.
I just thought it odd that you went to all that trouble and detail of informing us of all your qualifications , degrees, and achievements yet left out that you are a student in the ancient Greek language#28? Although you mention that you are fluent in " English, French, Italian, and Egyptian hieroglyphs" but didn't mention Greek at all, ancient or modern.
I thought "fluent in English " funny, too . Why only fluent? Are you an American that doesn't speak English as your natural tongue? Or is your profile just bullshite?
And yes. I know you are male gender, I was being sarcastic about you, a male having a menstrual cycles. One only has to google your book "Faux Law" that you also attempt to impress the membership here with and one of your 19 ugly mugs pops up on Amazon.
Dish it, but can't take it? Nice
I can take it sunshine. Now what about that proof. Do you any at all to support your claim of god, gods fathers, father, fathers, farther ? >>>>>#2 fauxlaw
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@Timid8967
Since I don't believe in god or any god, then I certainly do not consider myself god............ I am not defining myself - that is a pointless exercise - human if anything. But I never said I was god.
Yes indeed and it was that which has puzzled me. You do define yourself as your own "god", But that's the trouble with you. You can never seem to remember what shite you actually write and always need reminding. If you are not saying that you define god as "us" and "we" and "you"then what the hell are you talking about? HERE>>
So, does that "god is us"^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ include you among the "us" or doesn't it?
Just because I have provided a definition for god does not mean that I am suggesting that I am god.
That's correct you did, and you have defined god as " we " "us" and "YOU" have you not!? Or is it a case of YOU not even realising what YOU say or write ALL the fkn time!
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@Timid8967
But I am sure Dimtim8967 will be absolutely delighted with your in depth and thoughtful experienced contribution to his thread, in any language. You do know that Dimtim believes that he is his own god , don't you?Always stirring aren't you, Stephen?
Nope. And stop addressing me on a thread that I have finished with pages ago.
Since I don't believe in god or any god, then I certainly do not consider myself god.
Yes indeed and it was that which has puzzled me. You do define yourself as your own "god", But that's the trouble with you. You can never seem to remember what shite you actually write and always need reminding. If you are not saying that you define god as "us" then what the hell are you talking about? HERE>>
So, does that "god is us"^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ include you among the "us" or doesn't it?
Just because I have provided a definition for god does not mean that I am suggesting that I am god.
That's correct you did, and you have defined god as " we " "us" and "YOU" have you not!? Or is it a case of YOU not even realising what YOU say ALL the fkn time!
Now stick to your thread about the conflict in Palestine or has it returned to the original topic of god of the Jews and Muslims being one and the same... or not?
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@fauxlaw
Sure, the same answer I've offered to you: Ask God.
You didn't offer me anything you idiot. And I didn't ask.
But I am sure Dimtim8967 will be absolutely delighted with your in depth and thoughtful experienced contribution to his thread, in any language. You do know that Dimtim believes that he is his own god , don't you?
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@fauxlaw
Yes, I am definitely a polytheist, because there are innumerable Gods. God the Father has a Father who is a God, and there is his Father, and so on back into an eternity of past, as there will be of future.
And I just know that with those two phd 's and being a student in ancient Greek (something you have omitted from your membership profile) under your belt, that you are going to prove that with facts aren't you?
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@Timid8967
God is the one we find worthy above all others. Hence we worship it. It might be a superstitious person or thing. It might be a power or principle - but in most cases it is simply us.We are our own god - because we think we are more worthy than anyone else - we worship ourselves.I am the captain of my own soul - the master of my own destiny. The most important in this world is me.I am the center of my own universe. Everything I do - is about me and for me and to make me succeed and go forth.So which is it ? "we" "us" "ourselves" or in your own case "I" and "me", or a "god"?We and us are humanity. I in this particular case is me. Or generally speaking it also could be all of humanity. I think it speaks for itself.
So your are speaking for others then and how it is that they define as god/s?
I think it speaks for itself.
I think you should speak for yourself and not others that you don't know or have ever met.
I like that you believe that you are your own god but unless I have misunderstood you; affirming the WE and US all believe that it is we and us that are god/s or is stretching it a bit and I am sure that there must be many that would take offence at you claiming to be a god to the point of calling you a blasphemer. I know that you have said that :
"I don't give a rat's arse about blasphemy. I cannot blaspheme against something that does not exist. And if religious people get upset - well good for them. It is not my job to make people feel happy about nonsense".#89
But that said do you for instance , know how a Hindu defines any one of his /her god or goddesses? Or do you know of any Muslims , like you, that believe they are a god.
And an after thought would be; if as you say , `you are your own god` then as per the OP, how do you define yourself? Or is this you definition of you/god >>>>?
I am the captain of my own soul - the master of my own destiny. The most important in this world is me.I am the center of my own universe. Everything I do - is about me and for me and to make me succeed and go forth.
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@fauxlaw
What started as an interesting comparative subject has turned into a food fight.
And all started by none other that yourself . Lets have a look at your own contribution to what started of as a pretty "interesting subject" Shall we.? Here>.
Your very first post -Baiting the Brother;
Then a little sarcastic suggestion for Dimtim himself , which really helped the conversation along, didn't it?
Then again another pop at the Brother concerning what is relevant to a thread that is SUPPOSEDLY about the a Abrahamic god of Jews Muslims and Christians that Dimtim doesn't even believe in! And what certain gods themselves believe in. <<<, which is irrelevant to Dimtim's thread isn't it?
Yes, Fauxlaw this from you was an absolutely great contribution to this"interesting subject" !. You really added some food for thought about what eventually turned out to be a discussion concerning the war in Palestine? Not a single word of rebuke or condemnation for the man that pretends to be just about everything Anti your own religious beliefs.
So when are you going to even attempt to answer the OP? Or have you forgotten his question?
here you go:
Dimtim8967 asked ; " Is the god of the Muslims the same as the Jewish god"?
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@Timid8967
Why are you so upset that I feel there is more to the Jesus story? A story that you believe is a complete "myth " anyway?I even encouraged you to explore it IN YOUR own THREAD.
And I do. I haven't mentioned my own ideas or thoughts or theories that I have about the scriptures on this thread! What I have wrote is and are well documented FACTS of others and the bible itself.
I am not upset. You can believe whatever you want about Jesus.
That's kind of you.I shall keep that in mind. But I do anyway.
My issue is - that you keep bringing Jesus and christianity into this topic.
Nope I don't KEEP bringing that into the topic. ! I said my piece at post #15 corrected you stupid schoolboy mistake at post #43 which you acknowledged as " a fair point" and haven't mentioned either since only that I do agree with those here that believe Christianity cannot be left out!!!!! and that it should be part of this thread. BUT since in my eyes you have completely changed the theme of your thread I have told you that I have nothing to add here.. So simply stop addressing ME and stick to the theme of the thread, YOUR OWN THREAD because the political side that you have now introduced doesn't concern me.
I can't be anymore clearer than that.
Now I am really smiling. I knew if I kept needling you would once again reveal your paranoia.
I am not paranoid sunshine. I am simply pointing to the fact that you must have really studied all those post of the Reverend tradsecret to continually be mirroring what he said while he was here. And I have said that it is a shame that you don't pay such close attention to my post as you admit to paying his.
I knew if I kept needling you
"Needling me". I see. Is that what you think you have been doing. you think far too highly of yourself, dimtim.
To me - it looks as though you are simply a paranoid white old man who MUST get his way.Oh the privilege that exists in your tiny little half assed brain.
As I have said numerous times now. I feel your ad hominems towards me serves to sooth and massage your own troubled mind rather than do their intentions to offend me. Because they don't work on me you see. As long as you don't go all disgusting and filthy as you did after only being here a short while. Would you like a reminder?
Here you are >>>#272
Timid8967 Wrote:
" I thought you understood animal and pussy. Ask your god, it might help. Although it seems to be silent. Stephen is a dick." <<< absolute uncalled for filth from you.
Was those filthy and disgusting words of yours keeping on topic? Was that utter bile and filth adhering to the theme of the thread? My thread?
Like you, your thread is spent.
Bye for now.
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@Timid8967
God is the one we find worthy above all others. Hence we worship it. It might be a superstitious person or thing. It might be a power or principle - but in most cases it is simply us.We are our own god - because we think we are more worthy than anyone else - we worship ourselves.I am the captain of my own soul - the master of my own destiny. The most important in this world is me.I am the center of my own universe. Everything I do - is about me and for me and to make me succeed and go forth.
So which is it ? "we" "us" "ourselves" or in your own case "I" and "me", or a "god"?
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@Timid8967
I don't give a rat's arse about blasphemy.
I know and that is another thing we also agree on.
I cannot blaspheme against something that does not exist.
Then you do not understand blasphemy. there again, you do not understand the "confusing and contradictory"scriptures either, do you?
And if religious people get upset - well good for them. It is not my job to make people feel happy about nonsense.
And that is another thing we can agree on. And this is what puzzles me about your attitude towards me. Why are you so upset that I feel there is more to the Jesus story? A story that you believe is a complete "myth " anyway?
Ok, my bad. Perhaps more than christians care about the bible. IDK.
No, you Don't Know do you? You see when you told us that Christian believe the bible to be "only a book" I noticed that you had taken that right out of the book of the Reverend tradesecret. he spoke for others too and often. Is that where you got this idea? You do tell us that you had researched all his posts , don't you?
Lets look at this closer;
You said:
Dimtim8967 wrote : If it were the Koran - that would be true. But the bible at least for the Christians I know is just a book.Stephen asked: How do you know that the bible is "just a book to Christians"? <<<<<<<Please don't ignore that question.
See that, "the bible is just a book" are the words that you have used there . The Reverend tradesecret used a similar expression to you and he is a devote pastor #3
It certainly sounds like you worship it.
Nope. I worship my wife, my children and my grand children.
Jesus said he came to divide family.
That will be one of the hypocrisies you mention and that I also agree with.
To set man against son and mother against daughter. How is that peace?
It isn't is it? That will be another of those confusing one of the hypocrisies you mention and that I also agree with.
He told one of his disciples to go and get swords. Swords which then they used in a violent manner.
He did and and we know at least one of them did. We have to wonder why don't we? He also said " put it away, those that live by the sword die by it," didn't he? I can see why it is all so terribly confusing to you in particular, for someone that has only read it once?
Jesus was often talking about hellfire - gnashing teeth and all of that. To say Jesus did not advocate violence is simply a lie.
Lets see those verses.
And you appear to be awfully eager to promote a belief system that you say is a danger to our children and existence and a book and the you want committed to the flames.Do you just read what I say - and think "he is saying the opposite of these things".
I di see what you have only JUST wrote. I also notice you have only mentioned this since I have pointed out that you appear awfully defensive of the se "confusing and contradictory" scriptures?
Stephen, I am not promoting the bible and I am not promoting christianity or indeed any religious position. Stop being a jerk.
Ok.
And as I said - keep to the topic.
Then simply stop leaving yourself op to question that are not related to your topic that I have to respond to......
...... such as here>>
To me - it looks as though you are simply a paranoid white old man who MUST get his way.Oh the privilege that exists in your tiny little half assed brain.
As I have said numerous times now. I feel your ad hominems towards me serves to sooth and massage your own troubled mind rather than do their intentions to offend me. Because they don't work on me you see. As long as you don't go all disgusting and filthy as you did after only being here a short while. Would you like a reminder?
Here you are >>>#272
Timid8967 Wrote:
" I thought you understood animal and pussy. Ask your god, it might help. Although it seems to be silent. Stephen is a dick." <<< absolute uncalled for filth from you.
Was those filthy and disgusting words of yours keeping on topic? Was that utter bile and filth adhering to the theme of the thread? My thread?
Like you, your thread is spent.
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@zedvictor4
Dimtim8967 wrote: If I am not drunk but I am also not sober? what state is this?
The state of Utah, Salt Lake City? An Islamic state?
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@Timid8967
I mean, burning the holy word of god is right up there isn't it? It is one of the highest blasphemies in the eyes of his god as is not believing in Jesus AND the resurrection!Don't get me wrong. I think getting rid of the bible is a good thing. Yet, I don't think it is true to say that it is one of the highest blasphemies in the church.
Blasphemy is an insult that shows contempt, disrespect, or lack of reverence concerning a deity, a sacred object, or something considered inviolable.
YOU want to see the holy book of Christians and the "word of god" condemned to the fire. Is this blasphemy?
If it were the Koran - that would be true. But the bible at least for the Christians I know is just a book.
How do you know that the bible is "just a book to Christians"? <<<<<<<Please don't ignore that question.
The Quran promotes violence and intolerance towards the non believer Islam is an ideology of submission and perpetual Jihad against the non believer. The New Testament Jesus nowhere promotes violence. Quite the opposite, he says "love your enemies". Matthew 5:44
And you want to see it burned and eradicated from the face of the earth.
Even those who say it is the words of god.
You are making no sense again. What about those that say the bible is the word of god? Why would devout Christians deny the word of god and not believe it blasphemy for you to have done such a thing to the holy scriptures as to have condemned their holy book to the flames as you do.
again don't misunderstand me. they would be pissed off if it was done
# You don't saaaaaaayyy!? Why would they?
- but would they consider it blasphemy?
It matters not what it is that you believe I am making of it. And the only difference between the reaction to the burning of the Quran and setting to the flame the holy book of Christians is that you won't have a fkn fatwa stuck on your head.
Your job is to respond -.
My "JOB" !??
I do respond and you don't appear to like me responding very much do you?
Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"?Yes.
I will assume that you are including all holy books and literature from all cultures and all religions and not just the holy scriptures of faithful Christians?
What "front foot" ? The bible and Christians make all the claims. I did't write the bible stating Jesus is god, did YOU? I didn't make the claim the Jesus walked on water did YOU?I don' t claim to have seen Jesus bring a dead man back to life, do YOU? No you don't and neither have I? But here you are, still sticking to your belief that the atheist and the "non theist" should shoulder the burden of proof. Let me tell you, your "new self" is already falling apart.It is a universally accepted fact that the burden of proof lies with he that brings the claim.whatever Stephen. Keep your fingers in your ears. Shut your eyes.
I don't do neither. And you appear to be awfully eager to promote a belief system that you say is a danger to our children and existence and a book and the you want committed to the flames.
. I said - I think the entire idea of b.o.p in this particular discussion is a waste of time because it is backwards.
You have said many things regarding the Burden of Proof even to the point of denying that you had ever even mentioned the burden of proof until I had to remind you that you certainly had. here>>
I have never talked about the burden of proof, not that I can recall anyway. Let me be clear. Theists have the burden of proof. I cannot recall ever saying otherwise. And I don't recall thinking otherwise either. #61
So there it is, it is on the likes of Fauxlaw to prove god exists and not the atheist and "non theist" such as your self to prove anything at all. Well done that is all I need clearing up from you on that particular point.
But you WILL never convince anyone of anything.
Opinion . And you appear awfully worried that I just may get get someone to see AND understand AND agree what I have so say. But that has never been my intention. I even don't care if no one reads what I have to write. It doesn't deter or bother me in the slightest. It seems to bother you an awful lot though.
Except you don't want the truth.
What truth? Will this be the "truth" that you say "we" have just by saying god does not exist? Or do you have some other truth now?
I am sorry - why should I care what you believe
Yes that's' a good question. Why do you? But you keep coming back don't you?
you are a self proclaimed atheist
Well I do struggle with that you see. Because I believe the bible only minus the miracles. So I am not ever sure what that makes me , IN YOUR own eyes and I don't particularly care. but I do know that it makes me more of a believer than you will ever be if we are to believe your anti religion stance?
Of course you are a fraud.
I have nothing to be fraudulent about. I make my stance very clear on where it is that I stand on the scriptures. I always have done. Nothing to hide here princess.
And I will say it again just for your benefit. I personally believe that there is another side to the Jesus story to the one that we have had rammed down our throats for millennia. I don't believe the so called "miracles" and I don't believe that Jesus was the son of any god in the biological sense.
I believe that he believed that he was rightful heir to the throne of King David,. he would have then - had ever got to sit on the "promised" throne - would have been called "the son of god" just as his predecessors David and Solomon were also called. , IN FACT the whole nation of ISRAEL were called SONS OF GOD!!! Read your fkn bible sunshine. Oh you can't , can you, you have set alight and burned yours haven't you?
But this is the stuff that the church like to keep from their worshipers. They totally rely on them not reading the bible for themselves and they do cherry pick only what they want their worshipers and followers to hear and then they have these cherry picked verses explained to them and didn't Jesus do exactly the same thing.? He only taught certain things to certain people, didn't he? read your fkn bible princess. OH, I KEEP FORGETTING, YOU HAVE SET YOURS ALIGHT AFTER READING IT ONLY ONCE , HAVEN'T YOU!!?
And THEN, and just like the person that you tell us that you " would be happy, no pleased to be ` mistaken for`#243 " they simply pass sit on.
Then every one goes home to a nice Sunday dinner.
Please stop being such a hypocrite.
Hypocritical about what?
I have simply pointed out your mistake of using the given christian name for a Jewish god. And I do agree with the few here that Christianity cannot be excluded in this thread. But it isn't that important to me and certainly not important now that you have changed the topic of the conversation mid thread to a political issue .
To me - it looks as though you are simply a paranoid white old man who MUST get his way.Oh the privilege that exists in your tiny little half assed brain.
As i have said numerous times now. I feel your ad hominems towards me serves to sooth and massage your own troubled mind rather than do their intentions to offend me. Because they don't work on me you see. As long as you don't go all disgusting and filthy as you did after only being here a short while. Would you lie a reminder? #272
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@Timid8967
It is not fault that you cannot see this because of your prejudice.
What prejudice towards whom? YOU?
I find it odd in the extreme that you should say this considering I actaully agree with much of your stance on religion?
Just like you I agree the bible is mess of confusing and contradictions. #186
Just like you I too believe the New Testament Jesus story to be mythical. #16
Just like you I too believe history shows how dangerous Christianity has been. #153
Just like you I don't believe a dead rotting and stink days old corpse came back to life again. #101
Just like you I don't believe in a person/god with supernatural powers #274
Just like you I agree that there is a weirdness to the christian beliefs even today#141
Just like you I agree that the story of Noah's flood simply doesn't stand up to the lightest of scrutiny #14
So I think that your preconceived opinion of any imagined prejudice I hold towards you, is a tad over the top , princess.
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@Timid8967
(A)Not really. Are you now saying that the atheist has nothing to " take back" from the theists? And you haven't explained the "truth" that you say the atheist has have you?The atheist needs to take back the "front foot". The atheist is only able to respond - or react - never preempt. When the atheist stops being lazy - when the atheist realizes that the current status quo only ever enables them to react or to respond - not to pre-empt and decide the path that we want to go on - he or she will continue to be on the backfoot.
What an absolute load of old bollocks? I accept that you have admitted to your foolish statements that not speaking about god , "the myth that is Jesus", the bible and religion is certainly not the way to go. And I thank you for reaffirming your beliefs too #80 I am sure that our resident scholar of ancient Greek Fauxlaw will excuse you for all of those beliefs that are totally contrary to his own. Unless he has faith that are you only pretending to be anti just about everything religious, of course. I say this because I have yet to read of his condemnation of yourself and for your beliefs. I mean, burning the holy word of god is right up there isn't it? It is one of the highest blasphemies in the eyes of his god as is not believing in Jesus AND the resurrection!
I understand the burden of proof - yet - it seems to me that the entire notion of the burden of proof has been so wired - that the argument can never be decided properly.
What "front foot" ? The bible and Christians make all the claims. I did't write the bible stating Jesus is god, did YOU? I didn't make the claim the Jesus walked on water did YOU?
I don' t claim to have seen Jesus bring a dead man back to life, do YOU? No you don't and neither have I? But here you are, still sticking to your belief that the atheist and the "non theist" should shoulder the burden of proof. Let me tell you, your "new self" is already falling apart.
It is a universally accepted fact that the burden of proof lies with he that brings the claim.
As for the truth - the truth is - there is no god. This is the truth that non-atheists hold to and have in their arsenal. Why you would even need to ask this - is simply a nonsense.
So the truth you say "we" have on our side it simply to say, there is no god. Well then why even bother about telling us that "we" should shoulder the burden of proof, simply not believing is enough for you, why do you feel that you have to prove there is no god. You never once have made that claim have you?
To me - it looks as though you are simply a paranoid white old man who MUST get his way
Non of that is true but you are entitled to your opinion of me that goes nowhere.
and who when he does not resorts to what he knows best and this is to bully and act like a pompous arse.
who have I bullied?
Oh the privilege that exists in your tiny little half assed brain.
I feel your ad hominems towards me serves to sooth and massage your own troubled mind rather than their intentions to offend me. Because they don't work on me you see.
I suspect you like the Brother are actually just a fraud - which explains why you ask such dumb questions.
I have nothing to be fraudulent about. I make my stance very clear on where it is that I stand on the scriptures. I always have done. Nothing to hide here princess.
And I will say it again just for your benefit. I personally believe that there is another side to the Jesus story to the one that we have had rammed down our throats for millennia. I don't believe the so called "miracles" and I don't believe that Jesus was the son of any god in the biological sense.
I believe that he believed that he was rightful heir to the throne of King David,. he would have then - had ever got to sit on the "promised" throne - would have been called "the son of god" just as his predecessors David and Solomon were also called. , IN FACT the whole nation of ISRAEL were called SONS OF GOD!!! Read your fkn bible sunshine. Oh you can't , can you, you have set alight and burned yours haven't you?
But this is the stuff that the church like to keep from their worshipers. They totally rely on them not reading the bible for themselves and they do cherry pick only what they want their worshipers and followers to hear and then they have these cherry picked verses explained to them and didn't Jesus do exactly the same thing.? He only taught certain things to certain people, didn't he? read your fkn bible princess.
And THEN, and just like the person that you tell us that you " would be happy, no pleased to be ` mistaken for`#243 " they simply pass sit on.
Then every one goes home to a nice Sunday dinner.
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@Benjamin
I doubt that there will ever be peace in the middle east while the Muslim mosque remains slap bang on top of the site of Solomon's temple.
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen,GOD FORBID, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO BRING UP THIS EMBARRASSING PROPOSITION IN POST #7, WHERE FOLLOWING TRUE CHRISTIANITY IS HARD ENOUGH!: "More over, if the Son is the Father what of Mary getting pregnant? Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"...
Is there any other way to see this Brother without rewriting scripture and or putting words into the mouths of the biblical authors and biblical characters?
At least you are honest enough to see this little dilemma for what it is; in any language? And we have had it from the mouth of our resident expert in ancient Greek that to even read the bible written in English is a complete and utter waste of time as he rendered it completely useless as any kind of authority on matters biblical, so from his own standpoint, it would be complete a waste of time trying to make biblical verses written in English `fit` as a way out of what is clearly a biblical dilemma for Christians.
Stephen, could I pay you to not bring up topics like this to embarrass my faith in Jesus and Christianity?
No. But thank you, that is the nicest and politest way that I have ever been told to shut the F*** up and F*** off.
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@Timid8967
Stephen, you are boring. You repeat yourself.
No. I simply repeat questions raised by your own comments the you often dodge, ignore and refuse to answer.
I am trying to learn something new.
What are you trying to learn? You are a "non theist" and some kind of study other than one read of the bible brought you to repeatedly declare your adamant
"non theist"position and to declare your professed abhorrence of all thing biblical, Christian and Christianity. So what are you hoping to learn and why?
I am interested in learning and have learnt much since being on this site.
What have you learned in the short few weeks that you have been here on this forum?
I never moved the goalposts. For me the current conflict was my reason for asking the question.
Of course you did. You have totally changed the reason/topic of this thread from religion to political. I would agree that it is a religiopolitical subject, but considering that not a single western government or media outlet mentions Jews or Muslims but instead carefully choose the words Israelis and Arabs and I can't remember god ever being mentioned in a single broadcast by a reporter or news outlet.
If this was truly the case then you have posted in the wrong sub-forum. The Political forum is where a thread has been started on that very subject of the "Arab Israeli conflict".But again, I notice that, in all of the five pages and all ONE HUNDRED AND SIX POSTS of that thread you haven't asked a single question or made a single comment on the "current Arab Israeli conflict" ?Why should I?
Because if as you only now say the real and original reason for creating this thread was to understand the "Arab Israeli conflict" then that would have been the forum - the political forum - would have been the OBVIOUS PLACE to post it in and not the religion forum asking about the differences or non differences of anyone's god or if or not Jews and Muslim share the same god?
But hey don't let the facts get in the road of your paranoia.
No. That will be Christians that do that on a regular basis. They even deny what is written in their own scriptures and they do let biblical facts get in the way of their misguided faith and beliefs.
I conceded I was wrong -About what exactly?GO and read my previous posts here and elsewhere. I am not going to repeat myself for you.
Just so I am clear then . That will be that you no longer believe that we shouldn't be discussing religion,the bible, Jesus and god ?
Are you now saying we atheists and "non theists" should not have to "take the bull by the horns" and bare the burden of proving god does or doesn't exist?I never said that was wrong.
I am asking you if this still stands in your opinion? Are we the atheist and the " non theist" to bare the burden of proof concerning the existence or no existence of god?
In fact on numerous occasions I have explained myself.
(A)
Not really. Are you now saying that the atheist has nothing to " take back" from the theists? And you haven't explained the "truth" that you say the atheist has have you?
here is a solution to (A)
Simply say if or not they also were silly statements for you to make too? <<<< that would clear that up nicely and leave us with only your original "non theist" beliefs as you have reaffirmed for us below.
Do you still believe "Jesus is a myth"?Yes.
Ok. we can come back to the why's and wherefores on a later thread.
Do you still consider Christianity "a danger to our children and our existence"?Yes.
Ok. we can come back to the why's and wherefores on another thread .
Do you still believe that Christianity is a "cancer that should be cut out" ?Yes.
Ok. we can come back to the why's and wherefores on another thread at a later date.
Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"?Yes.
(B) I will assume that you are including all holy books and literature from all cultures and all religions and not just the holy scriptures of Christians?
And if you ask me any of these questions again -
I shouldn't need to if as long as you simply confirm (A) & (B) above, should I?
. And I will act accordingly.
You do what ever you believe you have to do princess, but I will keep asking questions.
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@fauxlaw
I don't personally believe Timid is going to hell for that, in spite of the declaration.
Well we know you wouldn't have a word said against Dimtim 8967although he believes your holy "god breathed" scriptures should be burned from the face of the earth, that Jesus is a myth, that Christianity is dangerous to our children and our future, that Christianity is a cancer that needs cutting out and that Christians are weird.
I only have to suggest there maybe another side to the Jesus story and you start having menstrual cycles all over the place.
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@Timid8967
Doesn't the bible say .............................. there is only one god?
What do you think?
Deuteronomy 6:4ESV “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
1 Timothy2:25 ESV "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Notice it clearly say " THE man" when talking about the anointed Jesus.
Isaiah 44:6 ESV "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
James 2:19 ESV You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!
Mark 12: 29 ESV Jesus [the man] answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
But then a careful reading of these unreliable "confusing and contradictory" scriptures in full, you will notice that even Jesus "THE MAN Christ" goes on to contradicts himself. when speaking of god the father and himself.
John 10:30 " I and the Father are one".
John 14:28 “ I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" .
More "confusing and contradictory" saying of Jesus the man himself can be found here>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5642-if-these-were-not-jesus-own-contradictory-words
Of course John 10:30 could simply mean I and god are in agreement. Or it could simply mean - I Jesus the man agree with god? Because John 14:28 clearly states god is greater than himself.
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@Timid8967
Boring. nothing to respond to.
This is why I know you to be fraud. You have much that needs addressing and responding to , but can't without exposing yourself further.
I am trying to learn something new.
You are not interested in learning about the points raised here by others concerning the Abrahamic god which also happens to be the god of Christians. You have got caught out on that point, so again, having been backed into a corner you have moved the goal posts and have now decided that this thread , your thread, wasn't at all about the religion or " the god of the Jews or Muslims per se" but was created to understand the "conflict in Palestine" and this is also why you have clambered for this bullshite;
Dimtim wrote: "I am not interested in Abrahamic religions per se, just the current conflict - which we see on tv between the Jews and the Muslims. Or Israel and Hamas / Palestine. It is not a conflict between JEws and Christians and Muslims. It is the Muslims who want to see the end of Israel and the Israelies who want to see the end of Palestine." #69 Timid8967
If this was truly the case then you have posted in the wrong sub-forum. The Political forum is where a thread has been started on that very subject of the "Arab Israeli conflict".
But again, I notice that, in all of the five pages and all ONE HUNDRED AND SIX POSTS of that thread you haven't asked a single question or made a single comment on the "current Arab Israeli conflict" ?
And "TV" rarely, , if at all refer to this conflict as Muslim V Jew conflict. And they would never be so stupid and retarded to mention god in the western media when reporting on this centuries old conflict. You see this conflict is about land possession and entitlement, not god "PER SE". So you have shit out there too, haven't you, sunshine.
If Jesus is the son of man, does that make him man? If Jesus is the son of God, does that make him God? Is it really confusing that Jesus might be both the son of God and God personification? Only if one thinks that him, being the son of man, makes him not human.
But according to you "Jesus is a myth". So why are you evening giving more oxygen and air time to this myth? Or have you changed your mind?
I conceded I was wrong -
About what exactly?
Are you now saying we atheists and "non theists" should not have to "take the bull by the horns" and bare the burden of proving god does or doesn't exist?
Do you still believe "Jesus is a myth"?
Do you still consider Christianity "a danger to our children and our existence"?
Do you still believe that Christianity is a "cancer that should be cut out" ?
Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"?
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The Holy Trinity
"the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" said Rabbi David Kimhi - " therefore, with reference to this god whom you call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, - that part which you call the Father must be prior to that which you call Son, for if they were always coexistent would have to be called twin brothers.
More over, if the Son is the Father what of Mary getting pregnant? Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"...
It's all very - Oedipus, isn't it ?
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@Timid8967
But never the less, you have made it clear on many threads that you are a "non theists", which, with the creation of this thread about god and or gods completely flies in the face of everything you say about yourself and gods, here:non-theists don't debate theology - it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god.non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove. Really we are fools.How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20Not sure what you point was.
My point was that your stance on all things god is that you say that you are fool for even discussing things that you can't define and don't believe in. Yet here you are discussing gods that you know nothing about and haven't defined yet. Not to mention that you have also said that paedophile priests and "other things" were enough to convince you that there was no god. But here you are again, contrary to your years of belief as a "non theist" ready to "suspend" all of your previous beliefs after being here just a matter of weeks?
Seriously!!! who are you trying to kid? I have already said that after your little speech here #31 Timid8967 that before long you will shed you "non theist" skin and become a believer if not a full blown christian because this now is the only way that you can discuss ( what you really do believe in) religion, god, Jesus and the scriptures after you had blown all of your toes clean off with all of your profound faux anti religious bullshit that you have spouted since day one of your arrival and that only Fauxlaw pretended not to notice.#20
You showed us your sheer retarded stupidity by suggesting that religion and Jesus and god shouldn't be even given oxygen or discussed, while yourself, discussing all three on a forum on the WWW! AND NOW your saying that just a few weeks of posting here has brought you to your senses? And you believe the opposite is true after weeks of continually pressing home to us just how anti religion, Jesus , god and scriptures you are?
I conceded I was wrong -
About what exactly.
Are you now saying we atheists and "non theists" should not have to "take the bull by the horns" and bare the burden of proving god does or doesn't exist?
Do you still believe "Jesus is a myth"?
Do you still consider Christianity "a danger to our children and our existence"?
Do you still believe that Christianity is a "cancer that should be cut out" ?
Do you still believe the Christians holy book the bible " should be committed to the flames"?
or at least I suspended my position about the above.
Veiled backpedaling, is what I call that.
Isn't that what you wanted me to do?
Whatever gave you the idea I wanted you to do anything except address questions raised by your own comments, statements and your belief.
I have asked you numerous times now- what is it that "we" atheist and Non theist have to "take back from the theists"?
I have also asked you what "truth" is it that you believe atheists and non theist have? #20 You have simply fell silent on both questions. So as for me learning and being "unteachable" why don't you now teach me what "truth " we are supposed to have, why don't you not teach me what it is the we or I have to take back from the theists?
I was wrong .
About what? What has caused you to believe that you were wrong after being here just a few short weeks of arguing with mostly me after your initial arse licking, that I didn't fall for at all?
so now I am trying to learn something new.
About what? What is it you now expect to learn?
It is pretty hard to contribute when I don't have a definition for myself.
So you don't even know what it is that you are discussing , do you?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Thank you. Sounds amazing.
It is and you won't regret it. And I sincerely you hope you manage to get to visit them at the soonest possible date, Witch.
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@Polytheist-Witch
And you brought up Norse/Germanic mythology. Mr. I don't want to discuss religion or give it air.
A1+ #20
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@Timid8967
Hence why this is about jews and muslims only.
Whose Jew god you have identified by his Christian/ Anglican title of Jehovah.
Dimtim8967 wrote: Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods? #1
But never the less, you have made it clear on many threads that you are a "non theists", which, with the creation of this thread about god and or gods completely flies in the face of everything you say about yourself and gods, here:
non-theists don't debate theology - it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god.non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove. Really we are fools.How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20
So if that be the case, then shouldn't you first be asking or searching for the definition of what a god is or establishing the existence of god or gods before asking if two gods are the same or different?
There is a thread addressing just this here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6119-how-do-you-define-god that I notice you haven't contributed to at all.
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@rosends
The four English consonants might be those, but might not be..........Also, God never referred to himself as "I AM". The word means "I will be".
I see what you are saying there Rosi.
But you do know I was speaking bible as in ;
Exodus 3:14 King James Version
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
I suppose that could be taken to mean, `mind your own business who I am, just get on and do as your are commanded `.... in English of course.
Or in the Jew case then, `mind your own business who I am, - `I will be who ever I want to be` - just get on and do as your are commanded `?
But we can safely take it, can we, that he was never called or referred to as Jehovah by Jews , Israelites or Hebrews, can we? A yes or no will do.
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@zedvictor4
zedvictor4 wrote:
-->@Timid8967 Muslim Jew Christian (and all other minor derivatives).....You can't separate them Timmy....So no point in going there.
He can Vic lad. He's a "non theist", don't you know?
And we all know from the horses mouth what "non theist" think about theology and god/s in particular, don't we.
Dimtim8967wrote:non-theists don't debate theology - it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god.non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove. Really we are fools.How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20
So it appears then that "non theists" can move the goalposts anytime they choose to move them and you have no right in showing him his own contradictions and perpetual inconsistencies.
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@Timid8967
This is not a topic about christians.........................................Muslim and Jewish god or gods. christianity is irrelevant in this thread.
OK. But please do not deny later that it was YOU that said that and not anyone else.
And you must recognise that it was you that used the Christian name/ interpretation for the Jew god and not me. So you can see that the blinding mistake was your own.
And I won't mention your other mistake concerning Thor and Loki and your Marvel comic version of mythical "brothers" that has created a separate argument ON YOUR THREAD about Hollywood, comics and comic characters. I will leave it up to you to tell them also to stay on topic as this is your thread.
Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods? [.................................................]This one is about muslims and jews......................................Muslim and Jewish god or gods.
Did the Hebrews and do the Jews call their god Jehovah? I thought their god was referred to as YHWH and didn't the god of Moses call himself as "I AM"?
So what you should have asked then is -; " Is Allah the same as YHWH & I AM Or are they two different gods?
And depending on who you ask or believe, one party will say they are the same god while another party will vehemently protest that they are not.
But never the less, you have made it clear on many threads that you are a "non theists", which, with the creation this thread about god and or gods completely flies in the face of everything you say about yourself and gods, here:
non-theists don't debate theology - it is impossible because theology means - the study of god and non-theists don't believe in god.non-theists debate or discuss or rather dogmatically affirm discussions about some kind of god we think might exist but cant prove or disprove. Really we are fools.How can we debate about something we don't actually know how to define - and by that I mean - there is no consensus on what god is? #20
So if that be the case, then shouldn't you first be asking or searching for the definition of what a god is or establishing the existence of god or gods before asking if two gods are the same or different?
There is a thread addressing just this here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6119-how-do-you-define-god that I notice you haven't contributed to at all.
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@Polytheist-Witch
One of the most beautiful and interesting places one could visit on earth , Witch.
Allow me to point you in the direction of the Bavarian castles and homes to the "Moon king" Ludwig II . Also known as the Swan King. A tour of this Castle Neuschwanstein and Lake Starnberg where it is believed the Moon King was murdered.
Here you will see the full depiction of the legend of Percival and the Grail legend and much more esoterica and even if your are not interested in such things you won't fail to be amazed by the architecture and the pinnacle of a mountain Neuschwanstein is built on. Neuschwanstein it is said is where Disney got his idea for his fairy tale Disney castle logo.
And nearby is another of the Moon Kings castles Hohenschwangau also steeped in Grail lore.
I have had many visits to both and spent at least a hundred hours there in both castles, Witch. The place is absolutely spell binding.
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@Timid8967
Is Allah the same as Jehovah? Or are they two different gods?
According to one group,(Christians), their god (Jesus) is three in one. According another group, (Muslims) this is blasphemy of sorts as it is a "unbelief" to Muslims; to believe such tripe or ' Shirk'. So it appears that these groups themselves are answering your question.
According to one group, " the group you refer to as the "weird group of Christians" Jesus IS god, while according to the other group you mention Jesus was nothing than a prophet. And who are you or I to argue what they choose to believe? Are you asking either of these groups to prove anything?
The Jews don't even believe Jesus was a Messiah or even a prophet much less or god and to believe he was I should imagine that would be a blasphemy of sorts to Jews as well as Muslims .
Muslims also believe Jesus didn't die on the cross and that there was no resurrection. Unlike Christians that believe their god incarnated as a human and died as a human and was resurrected by(himself)as god.
"the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" said Rabbi David Kimhi - " therefore, with reference to this god whom you call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, - that part which you call the Father must be prior to that which you call Son, for if they were always coexistent would have to be called twin brothers.
More over, if the Son is the Father what of Mary getting pregnant? Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"...
It's all very - Oedipus, isn't it ?
Do you not agree with what they believe about their own gods and religions, Dimtim8967?
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@Reece101
The thread was more than likely created to bait the Brother, in the first place.
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@Timid8967
Please proceed to prove me wrong. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6079/post-links/263887This is what my thread started with. It was not me proving anything - I asked others to prove me wrong.
Oh ffs stop it. Your thread is all about proving god is a lie. That is the title of your thread. And you start your opening piece with this bullshite:
See that^^^^^^ nothing there is there about proving YOU wrong. If you believe god is a lie then tell us all why he is a lie.
No, you wanted to prove that I am a fraud.
You are a fraud and everyone with the exception of the 19 faced fauxlaw who couldn't spot a mustache in Mexico, can see it. And you came here talking about "intellectual honesty" . You are the biggest liar to come to this forum.
So prove me wrong?
Prove you wrong about what?
And again you haven't even attempted those question above concerning your own comments and statement on your own thread.
You are intentionally bringing things up which have been answered.
You asked for me to stay on topic. I have done just that and you, like the spinless coward you are have simply attempted to avoid questions raised by YOUR OWN TOPIC, THIS TOPIC.
You have NEVER answered what it is we are supposed to be " taking back"?
You have NEVER told us why you believe Jesus is a "myth".?
You have NEVER told us what is the "truth" that "we" are supposed to have?
You have NEVER told me what is it that "the forum" is supposed to teach me according to you?
You have NEVER explained why you believe the Christian holy bible should be put to the flames?
You have NEVER explained why you believe "Christianity in particular is a danger to our children and our very existence"?
You have NEVER explained for what reason and why it is that YOU believe the "we" and the "us" atheists should have to "take the bull by the horns"?
You have completely avoided answering questions concerning how it is that YOU believe how we should go about disproving the existence or the non existence of god?
So when you are ready.
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@Timid8967
I never mentioned we in my last post.
But you have throughout the thread, haven't you? Would you like a few reminders?
You are intentionally bringing things up which have been answered.
And now you are simply lying on your own thread.
You asked for me to stay on topic. I have done just that and you, like the spinless coward you are have simply attempted to avoid questions raised by YOUR OWN TOPIC, THIS TOPIC.
You have NEVER answered what it is we are supposed to be " taking back"?
You have NEVER told us why you believe Jesus is a "myth".?
You have NEVER told us what is the "truth" that "we" are supposed to have?
You have NEVER told me what is it that "the forum" is supposed to teach me according to you?
You have NEVER explained why you believe the Christian holy bible should be put to the flames?
You have NEVER explained why you believe "Christianity in particular is a danger to our children and our very existence"?
You have NEVER explained for what reason and why it is that YOU believe the "we" and the "us" atheists should have to "take the bull by the horns"?
You have completely avoided answering questions concerning how it is that YOU believe how we should go about disproving the existence or the non existence of god?
And the reason you cannot explain or answer any of the above is simply because you dug yourself a very big hole when you came here with you faux anti Christian, anti bible, anti Jesus and anti god beliefs. You have done nothing but lie through your teeth since you came here , hence you wanting to put all of YOUR OWN "nonsense" behind you and pretend you have never said anything as if it had all been a bad dream. The truth is the pressure got to you and so you dreamed up this load of old bollocks :
I would like to think that I am open to learning new things and to have my views changed when confronted with new ideas. So thanks.When I read some of my posts, I think I do come across a little or a lot contradictory. So thanks Stephen for pointing that out. And thanks Zed and others for noting my inconsistency for calling for people to stop giving air time to religious stuff when it is plain I am doing just that. I have decided I will stop calling for that for it does not make sense.I am going to simply request that everyone delete my previous comments since many of them are nonsense and unhelpful.And I will try and start again.
And it appears that only Fauxlaw fell for your shite and he would he, he knows fk all in any language.
Please stick to the topic -
You started this thread on "Proving god a Lie", I DIDN'T!!!!
So why don't YOU keep with the thread, a thread created by only YOU and simply begin explaining the above.
So when you are ready, off you go.
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@Timid8967
It is not about you or about me
Then stop making it about "me" and simply answer questions raised by your own comments on your own thread! The thread is about YOU and what you propose , and why? Or don't you even read your own shite?
Everyone on this site learns from everyone else.
Do they? This is a discussion forum it is not your fkn pulpit and neither is it a class room or tutor hall.
See again, you are not being clear on what it is that I am supposed to be learning and who from. And telling me to stay on topic while you shout to the world that I am "unteachable" and incapable of being " taught anything". That is not topical it is insulting me on your own thread.
And you still haven't told me what it is that I have to Learn? or taught? or And by whom? You appear to be suggesting "the forum" teaches me? But teach me what? You can't say can you? That is because you burned all of your bridges the day you arrived and proclaimed ( far too much) your abhorrence for the bible and Christianity and the "weirdness" of Christians.
Everyone on this site learns from everyone else.
I see and what have you learned and what do you imagine that you have taught anyone on the forum apart from your zealousness to burn the holy scriptures of Christians . And that "we" should not discuss Jesus just because YOU say he is a "myth" as you do with scripture. You have never said WHY you believe the Jesus story to be a "myth" have you? WHY haven't you?
And please remember that it is you that have taken YOUR OWN thread slightly off topic. I didn't accuse myself of being unteachable princess.
You say something and I will question it and or comment on it.
So let us , as you say, discuss this topic of yours.:
How do "we" & "us" and YOU, go about proving god does or not exist?
We need to start being proactive. We need to take the bull by the horns.We need to give ourselves the b.o.p. to prove that God exists. Why?Because we have the truth.
"we" AGAIN ! What truth is it you believe "we" have?
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@Timid8967
And that Stephen is a classic sign of ............................... someone who refuses to learn.
Learn what? Taught what?
Yes you have mentioned my lack of being unable to be taught or to learn anything many times now but again, you forget to inform me what it is that I am supposed to be learning . Or by whom I should be taught or from where I get this teaching?
Do you suggest that I learn from the bible? The scriptures that you find contradictory, confusing and don't believe in anyway and want to see thrown on the fire ? Have you forgotten this already?
Dimtim8967 wrote: It is quite confusing and to me contradictory. #186. I think the best place for the bible is on a burning pile of books #8
Christians follow the teaching of the Christ, but you say "we" should not even be discussing Jesus and giving his teaching "oxygen" and airtime".
What am I supposed to be learning about, Christianity? The religion that you say is the most dangerous religion in particular?
Dimtim8967 wrote: Do you have any conception of how dangerous religion is and in particular christianity? #153
Who am I supposed to be turning to for this learning and teaching ? Members of the Christian movement that you say is not only the most "dangerous", but to be riddled in "weirdness"?
Dimtim8967 wrote: No wonder we see so much weirdness in the Christian movement. #141
Or should I be learning from YOU, the one that came to this forum believing that he was clever and smart enough that he could deceive everyone here into believing that he was completely everything anti Christian.
You have run out of steam sunshine, you are spent!
So, once more to my questions. Learn what? Taught what? And by whom?
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@fauxlaw
The apostles were eye witnesses,
To what? They didn't see him die and only seen an empty tomb.
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@Timid8967
Gee, another entire post with nothing necessary to respond too.
Then why ever did you?
Are you actually able to stick to the topic. Some people want to do that.
I am . You, the "new you" are just pretending that your own maiden topic created just 9 days ago isn't anything at all resembling this topic with the same theme .
Here you are : "Proving god is a lie" author dimtim https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6079-proving-god-is-a-lie
We need to start being proactive. We need to take the bull by the horns.We need to give ourselves the b.o.p. to prove that God exists. Why?Because we have the truth. ..........But by suggesting that the theist has to make the first move - and that they have the burden of proof, we give up our natural place in things. Let's take it back. Let's take it back.
I notice again that you have avoided that extremely important question that I put to you. What is it that "we" have to "take back". And what "truth" are you referring to? This "taking back" and "your truth" are all part of your game plane , for the eradication of Christianity,I take it.
What does amuse me however is that you find my views as a non-theist so distasteful.
Well burning the holy book of the Christians is distasteful, isn't it. Or don't you think so? And why does that amuse you?
The newer generation of thinking non-theists see the truth in this statement and have decided to do something about it.
Yes, and so far you have come up with burning the " quite confusing and contradictory" bible. #186 .
How many have you burned so far?
And what is your next step in your quest to eradicate the Christianity that you find to be the most dangerous religion in particular?
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@Timid8967
I really have no idea what you are getting at it with "we" and "us".
Of course you do. It was you that was spouting to the "we & and the "us" (the atheist and the non theist) how we should go about proving god does exists or not exist. and take the burden of proof off the atheist and bare the burden ourselves on the shoulders of the atheist and non theist.
And for you to deny that these were your own terms and phrases is simply mind boggling! Stop trying to deny your own inconsistencies and comments.
Let us stop playing their games - and prove that god is a nonsense. until we can do so honestly and without resorting to weak and pathetic games like most non-theists tend to do - because of our perceived intelligence, then the same old results will continue to keep happening. This is why we find it difficult. We give in to their mind games - we do so because of our belief we are smarter - yet - this foolishness results in what? How many people do you know switch from religion to atheism? Some - but there are much more going the other way. We need to be smarter - we need to take back control - we need to walk first - speak first - take on the presumptions - and write the rules ourselves. But by suggesting that the theist has to make the first move - and that they have the burden of proof, we give up our natural place in things. Let's take it back.
Does your old self still stand by that^^^^^^ statement . And what is it the "we have to take back"?
My point is that "we" = non-theists and atheists and the same with us. My contention above in that other thread is that it is dumb to use a strawman argument to disprove god.
Yes, but what ever argument one uses YOU are still insisting that it is for the "we" and the" us" the atheist and the non theist that must to carry the burden of proving god exists or doesn't exist! when it isn't. And you haven't even attempted to "prove"anything at all yourself.
To YOU, it is proof enough that there are paedophile priests and there is evolution" that convinces YOU that there is no god #8
Now is all you have to do is produce something more solid than paedophile priests that god does not exist. This is your baby so let us see YOU "take the bull by the horns" and YOU to lead the way with your "new generation of non theists".
What does amuse me however is that you find my views as a non-theist so distasteful.
Well burning the holy book of the Christians is distasteful, isn't it. Or don't you think so?
I notice you said no such thing about the Quran. You see apart from disagreeing with your plans to eradicate religion or at least burn the holy book of the Christian I just don't think them workable . So its not so much that I find your holy scriptures burning views distasteful, but downright ignorant and stupid to the point of retardation.
It seems strange given that non-theists and atheists are said to have nothing in common except their non-belief. Surely that ought to include the doctrine of the burden of proof?
Yes and I have found that the "we" and the "us" that being the -non-theists and atheists- believe that the burden of proof lays with he that makes the claim.
I have never met a single atheists that believes that he has the burden of proving god does not exist, this is clearly a christian belief. I have said, the bible makes all the claims Christians believe the bible is the true word of god. And what's more I have NEVER come across an atheist the believes he has to justify his non belief of god, like you do? Need I say anymore?
I certainly accept that non-theists such as myself have nothing in common with the old guard like yourself.
What ever does that mean? And I believe the bible minus the so called "miracles". You don't believe the bible at all and wish to see it put to the flame. Is this "the new guards" way of dealing with a religion that you say is the most "dangerous in particular"?
Yet, in this new generation, we are starting to recognize that unless we put forward a positive assertion of ourselves, then we will become as irrelevant as your generation.
Yes I understand and will accept that maybe your stance. But you haven't produced or presented a single thing in the way of a solution's to counter Christianity, the holy scriptures or the "myth of Jesus" . So what is it? are you now pretending that you didn't say this>>
We need to start being proactive. We need to take the bull by the horns.We need to give ourselves the b.o.p. to prove that God exists. Why?Because we have the truth.
"we" AGAIN ! What truth is it you believe "we" have?
"You cannot beat something with nothing." is an old slogan by a former president. The older atheists did not agree with this and are dying out.
How do you know what "old atheist think"? It was only days ago that you were telling us " how Christians think" and then did a complete 180 telling us you wouldn't know what Christians think because you are not Christian! You are just full of shite. Here>>
But it seems that YOU WERE quite ready and able to speak on "how Christians think" elsewhere:
Timid8967 wrote:
The Christians I have met seem to think that suffering is necessary for them to grow in faith or in character. #143
Timid8967 wrote:If they [Christians] agreed with that definition - then they really have little understanding of their god.#47
Timid8967 wrote: If Christians think they are being persecuted without good reason, they tend to get all passionate about their Jesus. #47
Timid8967 wrote: I have never met a theist who believes just in a three prong god. Most Christians I know reject the three prong approach. #143
The newer generation of thinking non-theists see the truth in this statement and have decided to do something about it.
Yes, and so far you have come up with burning the " quiteconfusing and contradictory" bible. #186 .
How many have you burned so far?
And what is your next step in your quest to eradicate the Christianity that you find to me the most dangerous religion in particular?
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@Timid8967
It is about god and it is about arguments for and against god. I have simply asked you questions concerning your comments about god that you say are against his existence and wondered why you didn't mention "pedophiles and evolution" in your OWN thread on the very same subject. Here.>>>>>"Proving god is a lie" author dimtim https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6079-proving-god-is-a-lieNot a single mention !?Stephen, that topic and this topic are perhaps close in relation to topics - yet they don't have the same focus or scope.
Opinion. And mine is that they are almost identical. They both concern the existence or the non existence of god. Like it or not.
This one is asking for arguments for and against god.
Yes and his existence . You have given your own thoughts and finished by saying;
" For me - it my subjective position that evolution proves god is a myth"#11 <<<< that, sunshine is YOU saying god does not exist.. so you see, YOU are talking existence of god and now pretending that you are not.
That one was directed towards encouraging atheists to stop using arguments that christians don't actually use.
Nope. You make it clear the the "us" & the "we" should carry the burden of proving that god does not exist. Do you see those words,? They are the same in this thread as they are in your own thread. So stop your bullshite.
Given that was the case, there was no need for me to use any arguments that were either for or against god.
But you clearly say the "we" and "us" should take the " bull by the horns" and prove god does not exist instead of demanding the theist prove god does exist.
That was your clear message and the title of your thread "Proving god is a lie" . You put the burden on we and us to "prove god is a lie"and this thread is almost identical.
it was to plant the idea that producing a strawman understanding of god was actually counterintuitive to proving god false.
OK. and that burden was put on "us" & "we" to prove god DOES NOT EXIST> And put on us and we by YOU!
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@Timid8967
Stop talking in circles - - your questions spring from a paranoia that I am someone else.
No, You must have missed what I clearly pointed out to you . See above post #29>.
"You must understand that my questions spring from what you say and have said, and not what I have said".
And who said I was annoyed?
Oh that is good to know your not then.
You really are just amusing the rest of us with your "off track" nonsense.
That is good to hear. I have more amusing "off track" stuff to talk about too.
And whatever I say or think or change my mind is my business - not yours.
Correct. But I am simply asking for clarity between what your old self has said in the very recent past and what it is now that your new self is saying and will be saying now and in the future.
I am prepared to learn and change and adapt as new information comes to hand.
You hadn't change in the first place, and any fool could see right through you.
You on the other hand - could never possibly change or learn anything new - you are unteachable
And what is it that you wish me to learn and be taught? The bible for instance, that you say should be put to the flame? I already know these scriptures inside out sunshine. But I wouldn't have if you had got your way , now would I? Or have you forgotten this already>>
why don't you start answering the questions of the string topic -
I am doing just that? And you don't like it. what you simply don't understand that you cannot just change your mind on some of the vile comments and anti religious stance that you have taken without explanation. AND Unless and until you do explain, then your old self comments will stand and keep coming back to haunt your new self.
The argument is about god - not about whether I am a fraud or not.
It is about god and it is about arguments for and against god. I have simply asked you questions concerning your comments about god that you say are against his existence and wondered why you didn't mention "pedophiles and evolution" in your OWN thread on the very same subject. Here.>>>>>
"Proving god is a lie" author dimtim https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6079-proving-god-is-a-lieNot a single mention !?
If you ask questions that are relevant then we will have a happy relationship, otherwise I AM NOT INTERESTED.
Of course your not. Your annoyed and kicking your self for things said past that painted yourself into a corner.
Listen dimtim; my questions put to you are completely relevant to this thread, weather you like them or not. They concern exactly the same subject matter and are on point with the subject matter.
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@Timid8967
Timid8967,wrote:. -->@BrotherDThomas You purport to be a christian. Yet your words don't match up.
Stones and glass house dimtim, remember that saying?
And your words are in complete opposition to what you purport to be be. What a short memory you have?
One minute your telling us that you do not believe in the bible and "Jesus is a Myth", next you are "wishing" my words would be "more easily agreeable" #25 with the scriptures that you want to see burned and eradicated from the face of the earth#8.
And you (as your new self) have the brass bollocks to challenge the Brother on how genuine his faith is!? fkn hypocrite!
Or has your "new self" decided that bible burning is a stupid idea and that the bible is best openly and freely discussed and ALL opinions, ideas and theories be discussed and
listened to ?
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@rosends
Literally speaking, the text never says that the world has 4 corners.
Just a thought ,Rosi, but wouldn't the believed "four corners" simply be referring to the points of the compass?
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@Timid8967
I never suggested or hinted it was a one is better than the other position. I merely produced two subjective reasons why god does not exist. I think there are many other reasons as well.And I have simply highlighted "pedophiles and evolution" as being YOUR reasons that you believe their is no god. ("among other things") is all I am asking?So are you saying that because of those two highlighted above reasons (and others) proves to you there is no god in your eyes? That is a yes or no question.Yes.I see and it is these and (other things) are how you go about "Proving god is a lie"? Yet I see not a single mention of "evolution or paedophiles priests"in your opening post in your own thread titled Proving god is a lie https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6079-proving-god-is-a-lieNot a single mention !?In fact, you do not mention "evolution or paedophiles priests" throughout the whole of your thread? NOT ONCE!!!Why is that?What you do say instead is, that it is the "we" & the "us" atheist and non theists, that should take the burden of proof for the non existence of god onto our shoulders. So I am simply wondering why it is that YOU in your own thread, and as part a YOUR OWN "proactiveness" and YOU taking the "bull by the horns"somehow forgot to mention "evolution or paedophiles priests" as part of the reasons that you believe and prove that "god is a myth and doesn't exist"?What part of I am going to put these words aside and start again, don't you understand?
Well you see, I have pointed out yet another inconsistency of yours that simply makes no sense. I want you to clear it up for us as your "new self".
And why you should be annoyed about it is something that I find rather puzzling? Are you now saying then that your " new self" is in disagreement with your "old self"?
Is your "new self" not interested in proving god is a lie any longer. And is your "new self" saying that the burden of proof is no longer on the shoulders of the atheist and the non theist to prove that god does not exists?
You must understand that my questions spring from what you say and have said, and not what I have said.
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