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Where does precession begin?
I believe we had this conversation before or at least you have brought up the subject once before.
The Sumerians have this to say about the houses or as they wrote it "stations".
Lord Ea/Enki explaining to his first born son Marduk (believed by some to be the biblical Moloch):
Sumerian epic.
“When I on earth arrived, the station that was ending by me the station of the Fishes was named.! “the one that followed after my name title, He of the Waters, I called”!
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To remind us of what Pastor Bill says above that " Jesus has set a precedent" when he raised the dead. Pastor Bill and his congregation were attempting to raise back to life the dead daughter of Andrew and Kalley Heiligenthal's 2-year-old Olive Alayne.
One wonders which "raising of the dead" by Jesus Pastor Bill had in mind?
The most likely candidate of only three "raisings of the dead" performed by Jesus appears to be The daughter of Jairus.
But like many of these so called miraculous risings of "dead" bodies, there is a problem with this story.
Whenwe take closer look at the “dead daughter” story we can see thateither Jesus lied or he didn’t perform a miracle or both;
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, "My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live".
19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.
20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,
24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.
Matthew9: 18-25
So if the “certain” ruler’s daughter is dead _ her father would know the difference between dead and alive - , then either Jesus lied when he said she was only sleeping or Jesus was telling the truth and there was no miracle performed at all.
I don't doubt Pastor Bill will accept this biblical fact and neither will any Christian. But it is clearly there for anyone to see and read for themselves.
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@Tradesecret
Stephen wrote: are a qualified Pastor & tutor so I though you may know how god did these things . so who is more better and qualified to turn to than you? You actually lecture on the scripturesNo professor in any field or sphere pretends or purports to be an expert in every area of a discipline. [......................................................] NOONE is an expert on all of it. And no pretends to be. [...............................] No one pretends or purports to be an expert on every subject. I don't.
Do you even know what an "expert" is? . It refers to a person who is very knowledgeable about or skilful in a particular area, Reverend. That is you sin't it? Lets face it Reverend, you truly are an exceptional human being.
Your own claims concerning your very, very impressive qualifications in religion/theology and ancient languages have elevated you to the - go to man - I'm afraid Reverend. To say that your CV is just `outstanding ` is a very large understatement #57 . And this is leaving out all of the charity work and the " significant amount of time and resources that you put into trying to prevent abortions from happening".#64 And all this while juggling a farm too and your criminal law case work and time the the court room defending said criminals .#13 I apologise if I have left anything out.
I have found that in my own 40+ years of experience in this field that people just like you resort to the practice of claiming a higher authority on matters by spouting out their own qualifications and status in such fields as if it allows you to claim to be, or have, and higher authority over those that you deem to be less or even poorly uneducated on such matters . Indeed, you say as much here>>
Says it all really, and goes a long way too in supporting my point above.
I have found that people often resort to this type bragging tactic after finding themselves embarrassed and on the back foot far too often for comfort. It is as if they are telling me to shut up and go away because they some how believe that they are equipped with a more higher knowledge than I on such matters. Its a kind of lashing out but politely. I think there is a name for it these days.
There are lots of people on this site - who are able to attempt to answer it for you.
Is there? And do they have your impressive qualifications?
Stop the moaning...
Where have I moaned, Reverend?
And I have asked you that considering that you say god makes the lightening and thunderstorms #56, why would god make a tempest " furious quell" while he was asleep in a boat with his apostles and then decide to tell it to stop after being awakened by his terrified apostles in fear of their lives?
Here you are, Reverend
Jesus Calms the Storm Mark 4:35-41
35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care if we drown?”
39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.
40 He said to his disciples, “Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?”
41 They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!”
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So it seems then that not a single person alive in 1st century AD (or after) witnessed the Christs promised return in their life time as Christ himself says he would.
It was always going to be the case of apologists such as Peter making excuses to the gullible, ignorant and superstitious of time that would swallow his feeble excuses - hook line and sinker. Peter was a fisherman after all.
Christians always will without fail, scream and stamp their feet and demand that we must listen to what Peter the " rock" has to say on the mater when the awkward subject of Jesus' massive failure to return is pointed out to them. Yet the Christians most famous attempt at apologetics and waiving away of this prickly subject will always be to point to PETER and particularly verse 2 Peter 3:8:
“With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day”.
Interesting that Jesus makes no mention of this 1day = 1000 years but categorically declares that people living at the time of the promise will witness his return .
Is this yet another invention of the gospel writers attempting to to get out of a sticky situation?
When there are many verses telling us that we should listen to the voice of god, who is it that we should we listen to? Jesus's own words? OR PETER a man that tells lies - and that denied even knowing Jesus three times! Luke 22:59-62? PETER, that was supposed to be "keeping watch" over Jesus but fell asleep three times! that led to Jesus` arrest, trial and barbaric torturous execution? Matthew 26:40?
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Where was he?
Jesus said said to his followers that some of them would live to witness his return to earth:“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.
Jesus then goes further telling them which “signs” to look out for but this time including the whole “generation” and ending again with:
“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.
Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.
So it is clearly Jesus himself states that he will be seen again in that generation of that time and that it was to happen some time during the generation of those to whom he was speaking. It cannot be made more clear to his audience that this event would not be in the distant future, he told them that some of them who were there listening to him would still be alive to see it.
Even at his trial he told the priests and the council :“you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“” Matthew26: 63, 64. And the no show hadn’t gone nu-noticed by the people either:
2Peter 3:4 “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
Yet even allowing for all those Jews alive at the time of the promise and living another hundred + years, Jesus simply failed to show and keep his promise.
Does a single one of those he made the promise to mention his return "coming on a cloud"? It will be interesting to hear what Christians have to say about this abysmal damp squib of a failure to keep a promise, his promise.
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@Jasmine
Yeah, he saved her life.
That appears to be the case, doesn't it. So one has to ask then why didn't those priests and members of the council simply carry out out the death sentence regardless?
They had absolutely no loyalty to Jesus. They had no reason to even address , ponder or take into account to what he said. They didn't believe who Jesus was and they were plotting to have him killed anyway. so why take a single bit of notice to him?
Jesus had also said he hadn't come to destroy what was written in law. Are you suggesting that all of a sudden these people suddenly decided to have a pang of conscience and decided there and then to disregard thousand of years worth of gods established law that they had been practicing for thousands of years?
So what do you believe stopped them carrying out the law of Moses? and their god?
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@Tradesecret
The poor widow in the temple by the way was being compared to the pharisees and other wealthy religious people
It wasn't a reference to the widows mite although she gave everything to the "poor", have you Reverend?
It was a reference to those priests that take advantage of the grieving and steal the houses of widows with a promise of a ticket to heaven and everlasting life.
"They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely."Luke 20:47
And there is Jesus telling everyone to give away everything they own in this world while sucking up to the rich influential and the powerful. Yet sponging off of "women of substance " in his party
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Firstly, we teach our congregation to read the Bible in context and not to simply take verses out of context.
I see so its all to do with these poor grieving parents, the faithful praying worshipers and the qualified Pastor with an impressive CV (just like you Reverend!) not getting the context. well it would be wouldn't it? What else could it be? So are you going to supply for us the correct context of the many that could be applied in this case as you claim at your quote [A] below?
Secondly we teach our congregation to have respect for God - he is not someone who you can simply put on a dancing string.
He is also someone that cannot be trusted to keep his word either, Reverend. And let me point out that in all these cases it appears that these sad grieving parents, and the congregation and the qualified Pastor, all had the greatest respect for Jesus, indeed Pastor Bill shows great respect when he speaks of the precedent that Jesus himself set and for others to follow. And didn't Jesus give his disciples the power to raise the dead?
"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give".Matthew 10:8
Thirdly, we teach our congregation that God answers our prayers with a yes or a no or a maybe. Sometimes God says yes and sometimes he says no. We cannot demand God do anything - why not? Because he is God - not us.
I see and in all these case he decided on "no". Do you have an explanation for that, Reverend?
Fourthly, I would never raise a go fund me page for any of my congregation - what a nonsensical thing to do.
Deary me. Are you telling us that raising money for the needy and desperate is unchristian, when there are countless examples of the scriptures telling us to give freely to the needy and the desperate and the poor?
If our congregations' members are sick - we tell them to go the doctor.
Why? Don't prayers work for your lot either? This is what James has to say to the members of your congregation:
James5: 14-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective".
Deary me , Reverend, are you saying James is talking nonsense?
The fact is - we have 4 medical doctors in our congregation and several para medics. We take medical issues very seriously. Yes, we pray - but this never means we don't let them go to doctors - or have medical advice. or medical attention.
So what is it you pray for in these circumstances.
In any event - we don't believe John 14 teaches what you are suggesting.
Which way is that?
[A] There are numerous other ways to understand it - and the fact that some don't is hardly an argument against the Scriptures - it really a message for more understanding.
Yes of course there is. There always is when these verses become problematic, isn't there.
It is of course a tragedy the story you have provided. And yet we see stories like that every day in life
It is and we do. With prayers all going cruelly unanswered. But seriously what can one expect when Jesus's own prayers went unanswered? Pastor Bill, even with all of his qualifications and impressive cv must have (like you) forgotten this bible fact .
- not simply in churches unfortunately but in civil life -
Yes well this thread is to do with the churches and the bibles tales of the power of prayer......... and the pointlessness of it all .
Education is a good goal - unfortunately not all families are educated well - especially in public schools. At least churches provide a network where people can see how children are doing.
Or not.
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@Tradesecret
I dunno - GOD does whatever he pleases. It is not for me to determine that.
Well you mange to attempt interpret most things in the bible and you are a qualified Pastor & tutor so I though you may know how god did these things . so who is more better and 2qualifide to turn to than you? You actually lecture on the scriptures. Could you explain then why god would cause a " furious squall to come up, with the waves braking over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped" and all on board were about to be thrown overboard and drown, then decide to calm the stormy seas just because the disciples had the audacity to wake him from his sleep complaining that they all were about to drown? Mark 4:35-41
Yet I am sure you can find some verses to answer your question so that you can then turn around and declare that the pastor reverend lawyer - whatever he is - is ignorant about it.
"There is a time for such things". Ecclesiastes 3:1
I have no idea why you find it necessary to do this.
Do what? Point out your own bible ignorance while you brag about all of the qualifications that you claim to have that allows you to be preaching and interpreting and lecturing others on the very thing that you obviously know nothing about?
Stephen, this is not a pissing contest.
I know.
It was NOT me who got you banned. Ask the moderator if you don't believe me.
The ban didn't bother me. It was unfair but it didn't affect me in the slightest. I stick by what I have said too. In fact it gave me time to prepare threads and... read them, you know, taking notes and things.
In other words, I never made a complaint.
I know,. stop flapping. I don't care.
I was and remain glad that you are back. Yet, this does not mean I enjoy your ad hominin attacks.
How am I attacking you?
Just stick to the facts.
I always do. It is you that ignores the facts, especially biblical facts.
In fact I can honestly indicate that I have ONLY once made a complaint while I have been on this site. ONCE. And only after I had repeatedly asked for the other person to stop. And it was not for you.
Stop it! I believe you. In my case it was some jumped up ne'er-do-well complaining on your behalf. How kind, thoughtful and Christian of him to do your complaining and thinking for you.
Anyway, would you mind addressing the above for me.
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@Tradesecret
Stephen thanks for that amazing post
It is isn't it! We have a qualified man of god, a Pastor no less, (just like you!) reminding us off the precedent set by Jesus himself. #1
Well now Reverend, you could try and explain to us why these sad grieving souls prayers weren't answered instead of sarcasm?
Take the case of Pastor Bill and his attempt to raise the child from the dead through faith and prayer. Why wasn't his and the prayers of all of his congregation able to raise the child back to life? Especially in the light of Jesus clearly tells us :
"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it".John14:13-14
And the bible clearly informs its adherents to continue praying! And to “never give up”. Luke 18.
Why would it tell us that if prayer is as pointless as it has been shown to be in all of those three sad cases above.#1
I found it interesting too that the only thing that this Pastor and his church managed to "raise" was the $63,000 that came on the backs of these unfortunate dead children and their grieving parents. Is it only a coincidence that this seems to underscore what I wrote in relation to this practice of priests and pastors on your own thread here>> #42
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These poor desperate parents had asked for the life of their babies. Their only motive was LIFE! Jesus said : "I am the resurrection and the life"
They hadn't asked for the mortgage to be paid off. They sought help and didn't find it. They knocked on god’s door and it didn’t open,he ignored them all and remained as silent as the graves that their children were buried in.
John14:13-14 "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it".
What a complete and utter cruel thing to promise?
But this wouldn't have been the first time that god had remained silent when it came to such matters. This vile god even ignored the prayer of desperation from his own son as he too begged and pleaded through prayer for his own life.
Who can forget the pleadings of a terrified Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane? So terrified in fact that it caused him to suffer a sever bout of hematidrosis as he begged and pleaded in desperation and prayed not to be sacrificed.
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@Tradesecret
So it seems apart from you and the Brother, everyone else knew that I was seeking questions in an attempt to open up the subject, not because I was ignorant of the subject.
Stop it!
If this thread was intended as a discussion solely to discover what others thoughts were on the subject of which is more powerful "science or nature"? then it should be a question for this sub forum specifically created for the very purpose of discussing Science and Nature? >>>
Science and Nature https://www.debateart.com/forum/science_and_nature/topics
So tell me. Why have you created and posted a thread with Science and Nature as its topic in the religion forum? Don't tell me: `you completely forgot that there was such a forum available to discuss such topics '.
Let me refer back to my opening post.
Oh I read your opening post Reverend, where you asked " Who controls nature" ?
Tradesecret "Yet, who or what controls nature? Does science control nature? Does humanity in any of it advanced states control it? Does it control itself? #1 "
So "who" do you think controls nature Reverend?
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@Tradesecret
Yet, who or what controls nature? Does science control nature? Does humanity in any of it advanced states control it? Does it control itself? Science certainly might help to explain it.
Science is the study of nature. The power of science can be just as (if not more) awesome, powerful and destructive as nature. Read anything by Oppenheimer.
The force and power of natural disasters can no longer be used as a proof of god any more. Thankfully, those days are gone now. It must choke the church leaders that these common natural disasters cannot be used as warnings, threats and - I told you so’s – by the Pastors and the Priests to further their own ideologies or religion sand bank balance. And neither can disaster be used to con widows out of their houses with promises of tickets to heaven and an everlasting life.
Indeed it was much more simpler then in past times of ignorance and fear,when priests faced less doubt and opposition to totally control a persons daily life.
Thankfully Science has has shown us that these devastating occurrences are uncontrollable natural disasters that couldn’t be managed and coped with anywhere near as they can be today.
An earthquake would happen and the people would shake with fear. Many would run for their lives if they were able to. Thousands would be crushed to death or buried alive and finally suffocate to death. The thousands of dead bodies would begin to rot causing plagues and rampant infestation followed by even more diseases which in turn would kill thousand more. This is not counting those that may survive but with life time crippling injuries and deformities causing them to be outcasts. And the Pastors and the Priests would blame the population for committing one sin or another against god and would be told they would have to pay more for said sin with more lambs and doves bought from the temple traders at extortionate prices and handover any other hard earned worldly goods that they may have accumulated through their sheer backbreaking hard work done by the sweat of their brows.
There wouldn't be any rescue crews with heavy machinery, no ambulances or doctors to treat the injured or nurses on hand to receive the injured into high tech emergency units and no after care that science has provided for those of us lucky enough to be alive today and they would not have had the early warning systems in place either that we have today.
Indeed those Pastors and Priest of old were raking it in. The temple mount and the temple compound was a hive of commerce, with money changers making a killing on the exchange rate as pilgrims could only buy with money acceptable to the temple authorities and traders taking advantage of a bad situation (and good one’s) by selling only“perfect doves” and other live stock to the gullible for offerings to god.
There was also the “ransom” straight to the temple priests of the sanctuary, as god told Moses “all of them shall give a ransom for their lives to the Lord so that no plague may come upon them” Exodus30:11-16.
Is it any wonder those puppet priests didn’t want to give over this lucrative business to Jesus the interloper.
“The money from the guilt offerings and sin offerings was not brought into the temple of the lord; it belonged to the priests”. 2Kings 12:16
Nope,no doves and pigeons for the Pastors and the Priests, they only took cool cold cash, thank you very much.
Today thanks to our brilliant scientist we can look on in awesome wonder at the power of nature but without fear and guilt that we mere humans had caused god to be angry with us and that we had caused all those deaths and all of that destruction.
How the Pastors and the Priests must yearn for the good old days.
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@Tradesecret
I am afraid that you have got this just about backwards.
Pull the other one. Always someone else at fault isn't it Reverend?
I am not asking these questions because I do not know
This is what you asked ;
"Yet, who or what controls nature? Does science control nature? Does humanity in any of it advanced states control it? Does it control itself"?
But you didn't know the biblical verses that appear to answer YOUR questions should one choose to believe them or should we accept your usual customary excuse of " not remembering" when your bible ignorance is highlighted.
but rather to ask others to engage with the thoughts in their lives.
Yet don't mention your own thoughts.
It is an exercise in getting people to ask questions.
Don't make me laugh Reverend. You start crying and whining when I ask you questions and resort to getting others to compose replies for you.
Nevertheless, it is good to see you are back.
Stop telling lies.
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@Tradesecret
Yet,who or what controls nature? #1
More biblical ignorance from s/he that proudly brags to charging universities to lecture and tutor their students in all matters biblical. Matthew22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the scripture or the power of God".
Matthew8:24-27
Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping the disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”
He replied,“You of little faith, why are you so afraid?”
Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.
The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
Does science control nature? Does humanity in any of it advanced states control it? Does it control itself?
None of the above you bible ignorant fool. Because according to YOUR bible, it tells us that Jesus controls it!! Or is the bible wrong?
The question should now be- how could it be that a fully trained Pastor of all people could forget the " miracle "performed by Jesus calming the seas and the storm or forget that famous gospel song - Put Your Hand In The Hand - sung by the voice of god himself the late and great Elvis Presley?
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@BrotherDThomas
TRADESECRET,[.......................]YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE IS SHOWING ONCE AGAIN AT YOUR COMICAL AND LAUGHABLE EXPENSE IN YOUR QUOTE POST #1: "Is there a spiritual element to the forces of nature - or is it just basic science? And if the latter, why does it create such emotional responses?"The only emotional response you should have, is the sadness of your complete biblical ignorance upon who is the cause of said forces of nature! Unfortunately, your Bible ignorance has once again NO BOUNDS as shown below in just a few of many examples, where it is our serial killer Jesus that controls all of nature, and not science as you portend, you biblical Satanic fool!"He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses." (Psalm 135:7)"Under the whole heaven he lets it go, and his lightning to the corners of the earth." (Job 37:3)"Then Moses stretched out his staff toward heaven, and the Lord sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the Lord rained hail upon the land of Egypt." (Exodus 9:23)"Then Moses stretched out his staff toward heaven, and the Lord sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the Lord rained hail upon the land of Egypt." (Exodus 9:23)"His lightnings light up the world; the earth sees and trembles." (Psalm 97:4)Last but not least, lest we forget our ever loving and forgiving Jesus, as the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, flooded the entire earth and murdered innocent zygotes, fetus' and babies! "For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die." (Genesis 6:17)
It really isn't too hard to do is it, Brother? One has to wonder what it is that a qualified religious tutor actually teaches and lectures on at these places of high education & learning.
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Matthew7:7-8
“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
100 verses preaching the importance of payer;
“the parents believe healing comes from God and that they never expected their daughter to die as they prayed for her and summoned others to do the same”.A central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seeking medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced to six months in jail and 10 years probation in the girl's death. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/07/couple-sentenced-daughter-prayer-death
December 14 2019.
Church attempts resurrection of a dead two year old child, through Prayer
“We have a precedent” said Pastor Bill, “Jesus raised the dead”.
He said “there was no time limit on how much longer the prayers and singing would continue, but added that the child remained at the county coroner's office”.
Interesting that Jesus also commanded any one that followed him to:
“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give”. Matthew 10:7-8 .
They appear to have done everything by the book too:
“'Since that night, and at the continued request of the Heiligenthal family, Bethel Church has hosted prayer and worship gatherings which consist of singing and prayer,' the church said in a statement”.
Interesting it is that the bible informs its adherents to continue praying! And to “never give up”. Luke 18.
The baby’s funeral was eventually held December22.
What happened here ? “Ye of little faith”or the wrong faith?
It appears that the only thing “raised” during this whole sad sorry saga was $62,000 (“unforeseen expenses”don’t you know) via a GoFundMe page. I can hear Pastor Bill sermonising Acts 2:45 as I write.
Members of the Followers of Christ Church whose members rely on prayer and had prayed for their sick newborn baby instead of taking her to the hospital are charged with murder. “The infant died just hours after she was born”. This couple was expecting twins, one had already died at birth and they prayed to god and Jesus that the other would survive. It didn’t.
“Dale and Shannon HIckman, were convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to six years in prison for the death of their newborn infant.”
In all of three cases (and many more) every single religious grieving parent was denied what they asked for in their payers.
WTF happened!!?
Was it because these grieving faithful parents“babbled far too much” ?Matthew 6:7
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@oromagi
Do your nurse relatives suppose they are being unnecessarily duped in
No. They know they have been sent home or told not to turn up because " there is nothing to do" and that there are " more than enough hands on deck".
I am sure that after all of the world wide pandemics that you have lived through you may be able to tell us; are those makeshift Nightingale hospitals running at full capacity?
generally reliable.
Are they as reliable as the BBC?
Matron at a London Hospital: "We now have a wards full of children here".
Consultant at the same hospital: " This is simply not true and is irresponsible ".
'Simply untrue': London children's hospital consultant blasts 'irresponsible' nurse who gave BBC radio interview claiming she saw 'a whole ward of children' with coronavirus
- Paediatrician Dr Ronny Cheung blasted 'lies' around children with Covid-19
- He said there were not 'wards' filled with children suffering from coronavirus
- A matron at a London hospital claimed she was seeing 'whole wards' of children
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@zedvictor4
@Tradesecret wrote I tend to take the view.......All this seems consistent to me.....It all seems natural.@zedvictor4 wrote: There's certainty for you.
This is not forgetting that he now is admitting , :>
@Tradesecret wrote: I don't take the gospels as necessarily putting a chronologic picture either. #44
So although he is arguing about all this, in truth he cannot explain it away and doesn't necessarily agree that there is any "chronology" to it all. Well talk about leaving it open to interpretation!!!!!
I actually believe that there is a reasonable explanation for all of this.
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@BrotherDThomas
Hypocritical Christians talk about Jesus, pray to Him, supplicate to Him, tell others to join their faith, but their ungodly version of faith is far from the true teachings of Jesus the Christ, hence, they are blatant Satanic HYPOCRITES to Jesus’ teachings when they do not follow Mark 10:21 shown above! “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” (Mark 7:6)
Brother, as you have rightly noticed, none of the theist here have taken it upon themselves, to excuse and or explain away what appears to me to be Jesus' double standards.
Did you know that Abraham and the righteous Lot's possessions were so great that they had to find more land? Genesis 13
And did you know that Isaac inherited his father’s wealth and riches and it continued to grow and to the point where the Philistines once politely asked him to move because he’d gotten all “too powerful” (Genesis 26:16). Isaac moved, but he couldn’t seem to stop accumulating wealth.
Jesus keeps rather quiet on these matters while telling others : "if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well ".Matthew 5:40
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Well you seem to ignore the word "child". It is a word for a small child but not a baby..............................
You are scrapping the barrel Reverend. And ignoring the BIBLICAL facts. Both these BABY boys, born withing SIX months of one another, were in danger. And you cannot explain why one was not given a warning while another is told to escape the country altogether which they did in the middle of the night, and not "years" later as you are now trying to argue against the facts of the bible.
"After the wise men were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up! Flee to Egypt with the child and his mother,” the angel said. “Stay there until I tell you to return, because Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt",<<< Do you see that.? they left that same night.
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@Tradesecret
Besides, Jesus had an advantage didn't he? He knew he wasn't going to die.You mean he believed in the resurrection?No. I mean he knew he wasn't going to die. And he didn't according to many scholars and one Australian scholar in particular.It is highly implausible that Jesus did not die on the cross.
You are entitled to believe that. Its a crying shame that you will never ever, be able to prove it?
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When did Jesus's ministry actually start Reverend? Was it before or after his baptism and receiving of the "holy spirit"? You don't know do you? And you don't want to know either, do you.I tend to take the view that Jesus' ministry began in Galilee - probably on an occasion when he read from the Isaiah Scroll. I don't take it that he begun it with his ordination. Nor in the wedding of Cana - or in the wilderness - or at his birth. Mark 1:14 indicates that it was after John the B was put into prison that Jesus began to preach about the kingdom of God. Matthew 4 puts both of these events closely together. Luke 3:20 reveals John was locked up. And that Jesus was about 30 years of age when he began his ministry.I don't take the gospels as necessarily putting a chronologic picture either. Their point was never about chronology. It was about Jesus. This is obvious from Luke where John is said to be imprisoned and then Jesus is baptized. Jesus was not baptised by John while in prison. And then after this Jesus is led into the desert.It seems natural to think that Jesus was baptized by John. He went into the desert. Jesus returned from the desert. He saw John again - and then went back to Galilee where he attended a wedding - John had not yet been put into prison - since Jesus time had not yet come, yet he had disciples - and then he heard John was in prison - his ministry commenced formally.
Well now you just can't make your mind up can you?
I don't take the gospels as necessarily putting a chronologic picture either.
But those three Gospels certainly indicate that Jesus had been baptised i.e. dove, holy spirt, voice of god etc etc. ...if John was in prison, don't they? And it matters not that Johns gospel leaves out the baptism . The other three gospels don't even mention the seven miracles that John's gospel tell us of, do they ? Not even the raising of Lazarus from the dead, why did all three of them leave out this miracle of miracles? . Going by your yard stick does this mean that none of the seven "miracles" didn't actually happen?
And it goes without saying doesn't it that Jesus couldn't have performed any "miracles" before receiving the "holy spirit"?
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:30 “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’
John 1:31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.”
John 1:32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
Well now even if you say that "you don't take the gospels as being necessarily in a chronological order" your answer then is you do not know where Jesus actually was at anytime after his baptism. Do you?
BUT John above it appears is giving his testimony i.e. after the fact, isn't he? The next day after the fact. and three days later ........>>>>>>>
I tend to take the view that Jesus' ministry began in Galilee
Well the gospels agree with you .
2-1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
John 2:1-11 King James Version (KJV)
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@Tradesecret
You seem to spend a lot of time pouring over other people's posts in order to ridicule and mock them.
Victim hood. Now we are back to the real whining and whinging Reverend.
Mock them? No . Not at all. Besides - "words are just words" according to YOU and "can't do anything". And you still, haven't explained how it is that words can "mock and humiliate" people when they are "just words and can't do anything"? But still you say my words that are only words, "mock and humiliate" you/people . HOW?
I go over peoples comments especially on my own threads for many reasons. But mocking and humiliating certainly isn't one of them. I think you can mock & humiliate and make yourself look silly enough without any help from me , Reverend. Just like you did here >>#8
Tradesecret wrote: So if Jesus is almost 2 ...............................STOP IT!!!
Jesus was just born when Herod ordered the death of children two and under. John was six months old and putting them both in danger. There is no getting away from it. You simply do not know you fkn scriptures . I have caught you cold AGAIN!!! dropping a great clanger and showing your own pure ignorance of these scriptures that YOU lecture and tutor university students on, yet know not the basic things of the life of Christ or the baptist John his "forerunner" who, the scriptures also tell us , doubted Jesus was the "messiah".. .Mary was told she was with child at the same time she is also told :Luke 1:36-4136 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child , and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. Do the maths, Reverend!!!!!!!!Why didn't god send an angel Elizabeth telling her that her that her 6 MONTH old only son, that would grow to be the greatest prophet that ever lived , was in imminent danger from Herod as he had done so for Jesus?I don't particularly care what you think Stephen.
I know. So now you can leave the thread . You have made your denials and I have corrected you with your own scriptures. Which categorically state that Jesus' mother Mary and John the baptist mother Elizabeth were with child at the same time . But YOU, with all of your qualifications and tutorage are refusing to accept what is written in the bible. NO ONE IS SUPPRISED BY THAT! , I can tell you.
I am not sure why you are focusing on this one
That's none of your business, Reverend. But there are a few reasons for me focusing on this and one is to watch the likes of you try explain it.
And watching YOU deny what the scriptures ACTAULLY do state is for me, a wonderous sight to behold.
The narrative of Jesus' birth and his escape to Egypt is not required to take place in the same month, week, or even year.
You are again denying what the scripture actually says:
"After the wise men were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up! Flee to Egypt with the child and his mother,” the angel said. “Stay there until I tell you to return, because Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt",<<< Do you see that.? they left that same night.
This was right after the wise men had departed they were told to flee and they did, NOT A YEAR or two later. So stop your nonsense, you are making yourself look silly AGAIN.
It wouldn't make any sense to risk the life of a new born king of the JEWS and gods only begotten son, one more minute than was necessary, WOULD IT Reverend!???
Both baby boys were in danger from the time Herod issued is order.
You always seem to forget that when Jumped up people like you, characterized by an attitude of qualified and learned superiority, try and explain any of these scriptures your explanations will always raise more questions that you also cannot answer..
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@Tradesecret
Besides, Jesus had an advantage didn't he? He knew he wasn't going to die.You mean he believed in the resurrection?
No. I mean he knew he wasn't going to die. And he didn't according to many scholars and one Australian scholar in particular.
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What data are you using to justify this claim?
I posted a vid and it is irrelevant where it came from. I am not claiming the information is reliable. I will say though that I have no reason to dismiss it out of hand.
Critical care bed usage in 2020 is LOWER than the three year average!!!!!!!!!!!!
and yet you have now offered 3 Parler vids from 3 different hospitals
I have and all of them showing not a single sign of them being "overwhelmed" " or at "breaking point" . Yes, I got you argument that this is what they are "supposed to look like during a pandemic", I am just not buying it.
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Proverbs 8:21. bestowing a rich inheritance on those who love me and making their treasuries full.
He certainly looks after his own.
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@oromagi
Did you get your initial information from the NHS web site or their twitter page?NHS daily reports (and many other details) were sourced from the NHS website
Ok. I am not surprised then by your pro comments.
But let me tell you this. Nursing runs in both my wife's and my own families. At the moment we have family members; nieces and daughters- in- law that are fully qualified nurses. During the first lockdown when hospitals were said to be " overwhelmed" , one of our daughters- in - law and two of our nieces were put on a two day week for the whole of the lockdown period . And there were at least four weeks where they were told not to go into work at all.
And that "11 story" building you spoke of is mainly labs, class rooms and lodgings . With a small out patients on the ground floor that is closed.
Critical care bed usage in 2020 is LOWER than the three year average!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Full to the brim and in crisis?
Princess Royal Hospital, Bromley.
Croydon.
Gloucester
Strange how all three of these hospitals are said to be "at breaking point" yet hardly a soul around in any of them.
Critical care bed usage in 2020 is LOWER than the three year average!!!!!!!!!!!!
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@FLRW
See a pattern here?
I do. I dedicated a whole thread to the "pattern".
here>>
Dying and Rising God/Jesus myth
This contradictory problem of rich men and giving away of one's hard earned worldly goods is more of an issue with me than dying and rising gods myths.
What do you make of it?
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@Tradesecret
It was because this was the only SOLUTION to the problem of sin.
Which came about via the gods. Once a chunk was taken from that fruit, we became "just like the gods"
He did himself what he knew no one else could do.
Stop talking rubbish. People put their lives on the line for others all the time.
Besides, Jesus had an advantage didn't he? He knew he wasn't going to die.
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Matthew 6:19-20
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
So putting things away for a rainy day is pointless , according to god-Jesus. And one could suppose that would make sense if the end was indeed, nigh? 1 Peter 4:7
I wonder then why is it that members of his "chosen people" were showered in riches beyond the dreams of any poor widow that has had her house stolen from her by the deceit of Chaplains, Priests and Pastors in "fancy robes" ? Luke 20:47
If we take just one example: Solomon. The list of his riches is simply mind boggling,it really is. Just one visit from one foreign dignitary earned him:
1 Kings 10:10- 29
10 And she gave the king 120 talents[of gold, large quantities of spices, and precious stones. Never again were so many spices brought in as those the queen of Sheba gave to King Solomon.
11 (Hiram’s ships brought gold from Ophir; and from there they brought great cargoes of almugwood and precious stones.
14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents,
16 King Solomon made two hundred large shields of hammered gold; six hundred shekels of gold went into each shield. 17 He also made three hundred small shields of hammered gold, with three minas of gold in each shield. The king put them in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon.
18 Then the king made a great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold. .................
21 All King Solomon’s goblets were gold, and all the household articles in the Palace of the Forest of Lebanon were pure gold.
Don't laugh , but 21 >>> "Nothing was made of silver, because silver was considered of little value in Solomon’s days" . Apparently, silver to Solomon , was as common as "stones on the ground".
23 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. —articles of silver and gold, robes, weapons and spices, and horses and mules.
27 The king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones,
Well if that one example didn't make your eyes water then nothing will.
Jesus tells us that: " it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."Matthew 19:24
He instructed a man that was rich to give away all his worldly goods to "the poor" Matthew 19:21 <<< again, what would be the point of the poor having this rich mans hard earned wealth if the end was nigh?
And Jesus appears to have surrounded himself with rich men and women and people of influence?
So we see on the one hand , Jesus telling everyone else to give away everything, while on the other he has rich friends and says nothing about the obscene wealth of Solomon, one of his own chosen people.
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@Tradesecret
Why do you keep calling me Ethang?
I do!? I am sorry. It must be that you are achieving your own aspiration of reaching his level of ....communication and wishing to " be more like him". Or have you forgotten what you wished for.... and in writing , Reverend? Here you go>>>
Tradesecret: "Ethang5 is a good friend of mine. I have know him for a significant period of time. And if you think we are like each other, that is a huge compliment for me.If I could be more like him, I would" . #76
I will be honest, you quite took me aback when you told the whole forum that, seeing that only a day before, the figure of all your aspirations was telling us that anyone killed by jihadist were " sheep" , as if they asked to be and deserved to be slaughtered. #154. Anyway, I hope that clears that up for you. OR didn't you write post #76 Tradesecret? It has you name on it?
So if Jesus is almost 2 ...............................
STOP IT!!!
Jesus was just born when Herod ordered the death of children two and under. John was six months old and putting them both in danger. There is no getting away from it. You simply do not know you fkn scriptures . I have caught you cold AGAIN!!! dropping a great clanger and showing your own pure ignorance of these scriptures that YOU lecture and tutor university students on, yet know not the basic things of the life of Christ or the baptist John his "forerunner" who, the scriptures also tell us , doubted Jesus was the "messiah".. .
Mary was told she was with child at the same time she is also told :
Luke 1:36-41
36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child , and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. Do the maths, Reverend!!!!!!!!
Why didn't god send an angel Elizabeth telling her that her that her 6 MONTH old only son, that would grow to be the greatest prophet that ever lived , was in imminent danger from Herod as he had done so for Jesus?
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@Tradesecret
I see you are going to continue on in your nonsense.
Highlighting biblical discrepancies, contradictions, anomalies and biblical facts is not nonsense . You are simply struggling to explain them away. And YOU!! a qualified Pastor and Chaplain, trained and tutored under some of the great biblical minds of Orthodox Church. #91.... according to you?
I notice again that you have AVOIDED completely my question to you. What are you so afraid of?
I have answered your question, you just don't want to see it, OR - going by your track record of blinding biblical ignorance, - you cannot see it.
When did Jesus's ministry actually start Reverend? Was it before or after his baptism and receiving of the "holy spirit"? You don't know do you? And you don't want to know either, do you.
LOL LLOL LOLL
LOL-ing like an little school girl won't ever make you right Reverend.
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@Tradesecret
You should take some time and read it.
I did, Reverend ethang.
Now let me tell you this , your pointless word salad doesn't go anywhere in explaining away Jesus's appearances elsewhere, when he is suppose to be in "the wilderness arguing with Satan for 40 days"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now let me educate you further. Jesus' ministry didn't start until - after - his baptism and receiving of the "holy spirit" by John the baptist "the greatest prophet that ever lived".
That^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Reverend, is a clue to where YOU are well of the mark.. Now get you thinking mitre on, Ethang.
These scriptures are a classical mess , you just have to admit it .
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@Tradesecret
But you are ignoring that BIBLICAL fact that John wasn't much older than Jesus when Herod ordered the massacre of all children under the age of two. .Not true.
You are ignoring the bibles account of events. stop being so ridiculous.
Mary was told she was with child at the same time she is also told :
Luke 1:36-41
36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child , and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. Do the maths, Reverend!!!!!!!!
Why are you being so so ignorant of these facts. This is something only ethang 5 would insist on doing?
You don't read very well.
THAT WILL BE YOU ETHANG5!
Mary was told she was with child at the same time she is also told :
Luke 1:36-41
36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child , and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. Do the maths, Reverend!!!!!!!! THIS WOULD MAKE THE BAPTIST SIX MONTHS OLD AT THE TIME OF HERODS ORDERS MAX!!!!!!!!
so why did god send an angle to the mother of the greatest prophet that ever lived and warn her of the dire consequences that her SIX MONTH OLD baby was facing??
Just admit it ETHANG5. You don`t know, do you.
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@oromagi
Did you get your initial information from the NHS web site or their twitter page?
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@Tradesecret
you don't read my posts
Oh I do. But you are ignoring that BIBLICAL fact that John wasn't much older than Jesus when Herod ordered the massacre of all children under the age of two. . This is typical of theist/ YOU trying to rewrite scriptures.
it is a waste of time communicating with you.
Then don't.
I always make you look stupid anyway if you don't embarrass yourself before I get the chance to . You don't know your scriptures. You have proven that to be fact on many occasions now. And you have the brass balls to charge universities to lecture and tutor their students , now that is well worth a LOL!!!
You need to prove John was in danger because he was in the region of Bethlehem and was under 2.
The bible does that. SEE ABOVE. Mary & Elizabeth were pregnant at the same time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. If Jesus was in danger then so was John "the greatest prophet", born just months before .. Your wriggling is simply creating more questions Reverend. Herod had heard of the birth of Jesus. He then ordered the massacre of all boys two and under the age of 2. >>
Mary was told she was with child at the same time she is also told :
Luke 1:36-41
36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child , and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. Do the maths, Reverend!!!!!!!!
AND
If John and Elizabeth wasn't anywhere in the region then YOU have to explain why the Jesus family didn't simply retreat to where John and Elizabeth, Mary's cousin, went to escape the sword of Herod, instead of fleeing the country altogether travelling 4031miles, pregnant and on a donkey to Egypt ????? now off you go,
You can't do either of those things - back to the drawing board Stephen.
Stop being so fkn ignorant. I have shown you that the bible does show BOTH those things. Or is the bible wrong?
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@Tradesecret
you are desperate.
Nope. That will be you Reverend. Your just a little shy of the facts here .
Come on produce the verse - quote it and don't add your brackets.
Can you explain "after" in those verses? Can you put context to them considering that you believe that I am wrong.
You know I am right -
I know you are wrong.
They are contradictory and you simply cannot explain them away .
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@Tradesecret
LOL @ Stephen.....................................I reject your interpretation of the term elohim here to refer to gods.
Yes of course you do. But this is not the actual point that I am making, as you well know. Whether it be god or gods plural, the story doesn't change. does it. We were made in his image and only became like THEM, HIM , OR THE US plural that is clearly mentioned. , AFTER taking of the fruit. for which you offer no context, again.
And are you suggesting then the the bible has been misinterpreted?
You can go and argue it with the Hebrew Scholars..
And I may well do if it were that I were to be talking about anything Hebrew. But I am talking YOUR god/s as in the Christian scriptures ,Reverend. and you are offering no context. why is that?
I also don't take the view that words here image and likeness is referring to how humanity looked or even acted. Nor do the Hebrews. And neither does the Christian religion.
Of course you don't , regardless of what your own scriptures clearly state. And still no context.
God is invisible.
Not according to your scriptures. Didn't Jacob actually "wrestle" with god? Did not Moses spoke to him "face to face" ? I am sure there are at least 15 other examples of god not being invisible.
And you keep ignoring that your god clearly states in `his`(or their) or "our" "image".
Hence - to say it is used to describe what we look like is absurd and inconsistent with all of the understandings of it.
Then simply put it all into context. What's your problem?
You still have not back to us about John.
I have.
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@Tradesecret
God created people very good.
We were created in the image of the gods. " "Let us make mankind in our image," , Therein lies another dilemma for you Reverend.
And I suppose it can be accepted that the image is one thing and the being is another. i.e. we looked like the gods but didn't act like them.
But notice very closely Reverend, that is was only AFTER the bite of the "apple" that we become `LIKE THEM `. "The man has now become like one of us". And began acting just like them.
But I know that YOU are going to ignore all of the ramifications that this implies. And won't even attempt try to explain the "context" .
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They are overwhelmed and bursting at the seams.
Yes so much so they are dismantling some of these relief hospitals
AND maybe all of the staff and patience at this other overwhelmed hospital are all out celebrating new year
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@Tradesecret
One wonders why you bother keep coming back to this site with your dilemmas.
One has to wonder why YOU can never satisfactorily explain away these glaring anomalies . Especially you, Reverend , with all of your years of study under all those learned orthodox scholars and academic . You did tell us that you : " do understand Orthodoxy. I studied and was tutored byacademics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the OrthodoxChurch". #91
Yet you have never ben able to explain a single one of these biblical anomalies.
The barren woman - who gives birth to life is an extremely beautiful picture of God' power.
Irrelevant. It is a rehashed story. And you keep assuming that "barren" only means unable to have children because of assumed old age. Well it doesn't. It can also mean too young to bare children and it can also simply mean that the woman has no children - yet.
beautiful picture of God' power.
And see #1 above , I did predict the possibility of YOU that you would invoke the supernatural . >>" The questions surrounding John keep mounting up and they cannot be explained away without the theist invoking the supernatural ".
no angel came to protect John the Baptist is most likely - because he was not in danger -
He was a first born!!!
since he was over 2 or he was not in the specific area of Bethlehem where the soldiers of King Herod were sent.
Try as you may that won't work. Didn't a single one of those scholars and academic teachers of orthodoxy tell you that John the baptist couldn't have been much older than six - eight months older than Jesus? Mary & Elizabeth were pregnant at the same time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;
Mary Visits Elizabeth
Luke 1:36-41
36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child , and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
OR ARE THE GOSPLES WRONG AGAIN!!!
Either provide excellent reasons why God did not need to send an angel to protect John - a first born and "greatest prophet that ever lived" or simply admit that this is yet another biblical anomaly that cannot be explained, by even YOU with all of your qualification, or anyone else for that matter.
he was not in the specific area of Bethlehem where the soldiers of King Herod were sent.
You don't know where he was. But let me just remind you again because you seem to have already forgotten that Mary visited Elizabeth "in the hill country of Judea" . Bethlehem was in Judea. read the verse , Reverend.
Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men.
lets try this one Reverend:
Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
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@Tradesecret
We all know what Mark said. That is not the issue.That is exactly the issue. One gospel is telling us that he immediately went into the wilderness and stayed for 40 days. While another say he was wandering around just days after and yet another says he was making sure wedding guests got themselves drunk .Its your dilemma reverend, not mine. Do your research.Well actually Stephen, I have no dilemma. It is you who had inserted stuff into the John passage which is not there.
Oh you do have a massive dilemma. You just do want to address it.
Again, let me repeat - Mark states that Jesus went immediately into the desert. John does not tell us when Jesus' baptism was.
John's gospel tell us how long AFTER his baptism it was, though doesn't he. " the next day after " AND he also tell us where Jesus was on the THIRD DAY too: "And the third day ".
Stop making stuff up.Are those biblical verses wrong then? That is a yes or no question.The verses you quote from Mark are not incorrect. Your addition of brackets with the insertion of baptism in John is incorrect. It is not there.
Square brackets. Learn your English.
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen, how do we put up with ethang5's complete Bible stupidity at times?
It's not too difficult. I must admit that at times quite enjoy reading the theist explanation/s for all these never ending biblical anomalies, Brother.
The instruction is clear :
John 20:16- 17 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Yet just a few verses later it can be clearly read:
Jesus then goes even further and implores "doubting Thomas" to:, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing John 20:27.
Clearly showing a contradiction from the Christ himself.
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@rosends
Seems the qualified and religious educated theist have chosen given you a wide berth, rosends. But you're not too surprised are you.
I like Lawrence Gardner's take on the - I am who I am - quote in his wonderfully well researched book - Genesis of the Grail Kings.
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@Tradesecret
We all know what Mark said. That is not the issue.
That is exactly the issue. One gospel is telling us that he immediately went into the wilderness and stayed for 40 days. While another say he was wandering around just days after and yet another says he was making sure wedding guests got themselves drunk .
Its your dilemma reverend, not mine. Do your research.
Stop making stuff up.
Are those biblical verses wrong then? That is a yes or no question.
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@oromagi
What was the "Public order offence" she is alleged to have committed?
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@Tradesecret
Stop making stuff up.
Are those biblical verse wrong then? That is a yes or no question, Ethang
Keeping in mind that while he was said to have been at those other TWO!!!! locations, he was supposed to have been in the wilderness for 40 days at the same time and immediately after his baptism .
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness".
13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mark 1:10-13 King James Version (KJV
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