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@MisterChris
I created a thread on the subject of " context ". I opened it up with that clip.
Notice how quickly it was derailed by theist BS Here>>. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5171-context?page=1
I have no confidence in anyone addressing these contradictions from the Christ himself. ( of which there are more) And if I have proven one single thing in all the time I have been a member here, is that CHRISTIANS do not like discussing never mind being questioned and challenged on these unreliable , contradictory and ambiguous half stories that make up these scriptures.
On the odd occasion they do try, but they almost immediately run into a brick wall of their own building. Here is a good recent example of a theist setting himself up for a great fall in just one post> #20 and here a few months ago>>#43.
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And mounting.
For the Lord has chosen Jacob for Himself, Israel for His own possession. Psalm135:4
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.....then the who put them into the mouth of the Christ?
Equal then not equal
John 10:30 " I and the Father are one".John 14:28 “ I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I" .
I judge then I don't judge
John 5:22 , 30. " Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just".John 8:15 " You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.John 12:47 " I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
I am my own witness and it is true. Then It is not true.
John 8:14 “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going".John 5:31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.
Man is not my witness. Man is my witness .
John 33-34 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved.John 15:27 "And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
Before the default excuse of "CONTEXT!" is raised, let me draw your attention to the fact that these verses are all from the same gospel.
And if they are not in "CONTEXT!" then anyone is welcome to put these contradictions into "CONTEXT! for us showing us all how they make perfect sense when they are read in "context" .
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The evidence just keeps mounting.
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the Lord has chosen you to be his treasured possession.Deuteronomy14:2
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@Polytheist-Witch
No sure what resurrection really means.
It is the belief that a person can be brought back to life from the "dead" after lying in a grave or tomb stinking and rotting for days, weeks months or even years. John: 43-44 & Matthew 27:52
Jesus didn't come back to life and keep living.
He did according to scripture, well for just over a month anyway.. Ask Thomas, he asked for real, solid and physical evidence of resurrection and by all accounts he got it ,John 20:27. yet Jesus forbid a woman to touch him at all. Odd Thomas would doubt at all in the first place though isn`t it ? Considering that he had already witnessed a resurrection before Jesus was killed?
His soul crossed over.
Can you explain how this happened?
I know several mediums who can talk to and see the dead too.
Only several people? There are millions that see and talk to Jesus on a daily basis, if you choose to believe them. Could you ask these mediums to ask Jesus would he like to return to my house so I could interview him, and get back to me on that?
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Actually i don't believe there are any contradictions in scripture,
But it is you that has highlighted the contradiction yourself. I didn't do that. And what you believe is irrelevant, it is the facts that count. And here, YOU have highlighted John's gospel contradicting YOURSELF and the Old Testament and now you have gone into backpedaling mode.
When I asked you for New Testament evidence YOU took the time to point out to me from the Old Testament>>
See above? You have told us that Enoch and Elijah went to heaven without dying, haven't you? And the Old Testament agrees with you, doesn't it ?
So one of them is wrong isn't it?
Look again at what John's gospel has to say>>> "
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
That is why I specifically asked you for New Testament evidence at #20
But I had an idea that you would ignore my request and reach directly for your trusty Old Testament. And the reason you did this is because you know perfectly well that there isn't a single case of anyone except Jesus going directly to heaven alive in the New Testament. Even Jesus died once before he is said to have "ascended to heaven", didn't he?
But this has backed fired on you spectacularly, hasn't it. Because by reaching for the OT YOU highlighted the glaring biblical contradiction. Not me.
but people continually take verses out of context or ignore what comes before or after it and disregard related verses.
Well then is all you have to do is, first, correct or at least explain away the biblical contradiction that YOU highlighted, and second, put it all into context so we can all understand it .
You have to explain why the bible says people went directly to heaven alive , and why the bible also says no one went direct to heaven alive except Jesus? And then explain how any of this explains Jesus` failure to return as he had promised his disciples he would do in their own lifetimes.
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Well Brother, what you may have come to expect from me and my questions is that I do show that all of my questions and other inquiries on this religion forum all arise from these ambiguous scriptures themselves.
And I believe here the scriptures are showing Paul to be duping his audience? Paul appears to make thing up as he goes along, just as many of the theist here do... often.
Quick recap: The bible has Jesus saying "No one comes to the Father except through me”. John14:6. We can accept that to mean through Jesus only.
But when we read Paul;
He says one can get to "the father"/heaven, even if they don't believe in Jesus and as long as they are married to someone that does!?
i.e. Paul says in 1 CORINTHIANS 7:8-16 that the unbelieving husband is acceptable to God because he is united with his wife and vice versa, and their gentile/pagan children are also acceptable to God.
" Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy ".
So here then it can be through the husband or wife that the "unbeliever" can get to heaven and not through Jesus only , according to Paul.
So while on top of John14:6 we have Mathew 7:13-14 telling us "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it", and Acts 4:12 telling us that:
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Paul appears to be inviting all comers even none believing husbands and wives!? And Paul was never an apostle!?
Do you see my point Brother?
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Jesus may as well have said I have come to unite ONLY the lost son’s of god because this is what they - "the lost sheep of Israel" - were according to scripture.
Jesus said : "You know what is written in the Scriptures. Doesn’t it read, “I said, you are gods”? John 10:34
Jesus could only have been referring to this :
Psalm82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Exodus4:22 “Israel is my firstborn son”.
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@ronjs
The word "likely" indicates that it is speculative, but Enoch and Elijah didn't taste death but were translated directly to heaven according to scripture.
I am pleased that it was you that brought that up. Like I said to you above, I didn't want anyone to accused me of "trapping" you. That is why I specifically ask you above for "New Testament" evidence and to consider John 3:13 before you rushed to answer.
And I appreciate and accept your comment in reference to those Old Testament characters. And I am pleased that it was YOU and not me that mentioned Enoch and Elijah (In Judaism there are others) because it is you that has highlighted that glaring biblical contradiction of John`s claim , haven't you?
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Now your task is to explain away the contradiction highlighted by yourself and why it is that Johns gospel appears to be contradicting the Old Testament. .....
and none of this goes anywhere in explaining why Jesus failed to return at the promised time.
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Another point is , did Jesus actaully lay down these prerequisites for a ticked to heaven, himself?
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@Soluminsanis
A simple argument for God's existence.....
...... would be for you to offer proof of his existence or for himself to offer some proof that he actually exist, like burning the problematic bush I have in my garden.
Yes I know, " Do not put the LORD your God to the test " Deuteronomy 6:16 & "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God".Matthew 4:7, but surely god knows we have moved on since the flood? Surely he must understand that we are no longer the superstitious, gullible, illiterate subservient beings of ancient times.?
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"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”. John14:6
What does this mean in its full context? Do I have to, for instance, believe Jesus died for my sins, or do I only have to believe in Jesus? Do I have to believe in the resurrection? Would it make me holy and acceptable for a place in heaven if I believed one or all the above?
John's gospel also says “ Jesus answered,“The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John6:29.
Is this implying that if I believe he was from god then I would go to heaven?
Could it be argued that Jesus doesn’t use specifics by saying “ No one comes to the Father except through me [and only me]”.?
What had all those millions of Jews been believing in before Jesus came along that appears to disqualify them a place in “heaven” with their “father” unless they all started to believe in him? Which we know that many didn't.
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@ fauxlaw,
And note that I am not insisting that you get off of my string.
Notice, unlike that vexatious litigant and braindead cretin ethang5, I didn't address any comment of yours and stayed well on topic. I wasn't disruptive and I have not posted irrelevant nonsense contrary to the topic, your topic .
Also note that I don't give two shites about your "ban" and if you wish me to stay off your thread then don't direct your questions to me personally as you have done so on this thread, your own thread above.#10 and simply ask me to stay away. I will request that you do the same. The balls in your court.
You too have posted on my threads lately, and I haven't complained although you have taken my thread completely off topic conducting your own debate with another member and carrying on a conversation that has no relevance to the theme of the thread, my thread.. Starting here #3 Added02.03.21 10:06PM with seven posts in all and it looks like you haven't finished disrupting my thread with your own private discussion either.
And remember you were carrying on the cowardly practice of posting on MY threads when YOU had ME on block. So don't push it.
I hope this will be the last time I will ever need to address you personally.
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@Mopac
Being in a monastery doesn't necessarily stop temptation either.
So how many beautiful women are in your monk house?
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@Intelligence_06
P1: If God exists, then we could prove that it exists outside scrolls of religious books.P2: The closest we have got to "objective proof" of god is just ambiguous things that could be done by a god but could also occur naturally, there is no direct and objective proof of god yetP3: Thus, at least to us here and now, God doesn't exist.CHECK AND MATE
A+1
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@FLRW
When asked the secret of his longevity, 91 year old American Actor Ernest Borgnine answered "I masturbate a lot".
Methuselah must have been ambidextrous with massive biceps.
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@Mopac
You have a choice when it comes to how you handle desires.Eventually, what once were strong desires lose their strength. I know that for certain.
I should imagine they do lose there pull and strength once it realised and accepted that being locked away in monk land prohibits you from achieving those desires and that any attempt to reach those desires is futile.... under those circumstances.
Are you suggesting that unless you lock yourself away from "the sins of the world" that you couldn't resist your desires, even after praying "lead me not into temptation" a billion times a day?
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@zedvictor4
zedvictor4, wrote:
@ethang5So you are saying that you are also a devotee of Allah?....That's very comforting to hear.
Seriously Vic, who can forget this?
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@ronjs
Some would not taste death, so it is likely some were translated into heaven without going through the dying process.
Really!? So you have evidence from the New Testament scripture that testifies to this being the case? I would hate to be accused of trapping you so please keep this in mind before you answer:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And he also said :
“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.
And then he also says:
“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.
Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.
These verses can only be accepted as any kind of truth when it is understood that Jesus is talking about the end of the age. He makes this perfectly clear when he talks of
"the signs"
Remember Jesus said these things only after being asked : "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" Matthew 24:3
It is only then that Jesus goes on to describe "the signs":
saying "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains".
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@SirAnonymous
No, I know perfectly well who said it. "You will be like God" was a lie told by the devil. Not just any lie, but the lie that convinced Adam and Eve to sin, bringing sin into the world.
Was it a lie?
And as I have pointed put many times here, that it was only after being "deceived" by one of these gods that we took on the attributes of these gods. i.e. we became like gods with all of their flaws and horrible habits of lying, cheating, stealing and killing... and some good habits. Although, after many requests for someone to do so, I have still yet to see anyone start a thread showing "god" in a good light after all the crowing about how great and and loving he is.
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil".Genesis 3:22
But don't expect "god" to shoulder any of the blame, will you.
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"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel", he says. Matthew15:24
This is the verse that has thrown Christians into biblical denial and caused them to deceive themselves for millennia , yet there is no room for misunderstanding this verse spoken by the god of Israel - to HIS people.
It appears that it is not enough that even Jesus's own sacred words aren't enough to convince the Christian that he has no place in the messiahs sheep fold when he, GOD, clearly says : " Only".
And neither do the words of the "god inspired"gospels. As mentioned earlier, Luke tells us:
"my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel".
Luke 29-30. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mathews gospel supports the supper comment by telling us :
Matthew19:28 - 29
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things,when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A close look at John's gospel shows Jesus reminding the Jews of "what is written" , but Christians are simply blind to the obvious. Today there is no excuse or reason for Christians to believe that Jesus was speaking about them, especially when he harked back to ancient scripture on the matter and what was written then.
The Church itself, the Roman/ Italian Pope Leo X had this to say about the gullible, "It has served us well, this myth of Christ." Indeed Poppa!
They - the church - obviously understood what Jesus - the Jew - himself had made perfectly clear when he said it was ONLY to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel that he had come to save and unite. It appears to have been a case of the ` not so blind, leading the deaf, the dumb , the blind and the stupid`.
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So it appears that these miraculous gifts that Jesus' disciples were empowered with weren't passed down to others as he had instructed them to do.
Matthew 10:5-8
"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give".
The way I read this is Jesus reminding the disciples that what they have “received” has been given without any cost to themselves, underlying the word “freely.” He then makes the point of telling them to give just as freely because of the fact that they are ministering according to his free gift, and not their own native abilities.
It appears that no one thought to point out the selfishness of the disciples to Pastor Bill and the wasted time and efforts of himself and his congregation when attempting by faith and prayer to raise child from the dead.
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The telling thing about Christians denying the obvious is when we get to Jesus at the last supper and his instructions to his disciples to carry on and achieve the mission that he says he was sent to do: " "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel", he says. Matthew15:24
At this point he had already "blessed them" with the holy spirit to go out into the world and do their miracles as he had done;
"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Matthew 10:8". (odd that with these new powerful gifts not a single one of them recognise that Satan "had entered Judas" while they were filling their faces, isn't it? Luke 22:3. The world would have been a different place altogether,..maybe? ) .
Anyway:
we are at the last supper and Jesus makes them this promise:
Luke22:15-30
"my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel".
29-30. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, what can one say. Again this is a categorical statement made by Jesus the JEW, in a private meeting to twelve of his JEW disciples about who they were to rule over.
Mathews gospel supports the supper comment by telling us :
Matthew19:28 - 29
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things,when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Again we see , that it is to Israel that this promise was made to. Those that Jesus clearly tells us he had been sent to. Those that god called "My sons" and told them "you are gods".
Psalm82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Exodus4:22 “Israel is my firstborn son”.
Can a single Christian claim to be a god? Can a single christian claim to be a son of god?
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Well.
I expected more in the way of explanation as to why Gabriel's prophesy about the future of this "new born king" didn't come to any type of fruition IN ANY WAY at all.
Indeed, the out come couldn't have been more opposite and bleak. No money of his own. No home of his own. Tempted my the devil, Stabbed in the back by one of his special hand picked disciples and denounced three times by another hand picked disciple.
It's hard to say which was worse or more embarrassing to a "king" ; having to scrounge and mooch off of Mary and "many women" to support him or the scourging and nailing to the cross and piercing with a lance and the mocking while he hung on the cross caused by the betrayal of his own inner circle.
There is no mention of Gabriel explaining what went so terribly wrong, so I don't suppose I should expect anything in the way of an excuse from Christians who, after all, are not Jews.
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Those that are interested in these ambiguous and anomalous half stories in the scriptures may want to take note that the New Testament records the word "Jew" or "Jews" 185 times.
Of the four gospels John is the most prolific in his use of the word clocking up 70 times in all; whilst the other three only use the word 16 times between them, 12 of which are in reference to Jesus as "King of the Jews". Yes JEWS!!! now there's a surprise.
The book of Acts refers almost 80 times to "the Jew"; whilst we can some 27 time in the Pauls letters, in his Epistle to the Romans. That will Paul the self confessed murderer of Jews including women,Acts 22 and obviously forgiven and in paradise now . Interesting too that Christians have it that, Paul was executed without a single piece of biblical evidence to support this claim. Interesting too the Paul is martyred simply because it is "believed" that he was beheaded. No one knows when , where or why? And beheading of Christians doesn't sound very Roman does it? I could do a whole thread on Paul, he of many faces and the reader wouldn't be surprised to find that there are many different versions about his conversation or "epiphany"; that's to say Pauls change from being what ever he was claiming to be at the time to being a Christian.
That said, if anyone should take credit for the birth of this new religion - Christianity- way after the death of the Jew Jesus, that credit should go to Paul , and certainly not Jesus the Jew who would have been appalled that a whole new religious movement had sprang up in his name.
Anyway;
Elsewhere in the New Testament the word"Jew" is only mentioned twice and that is in the Book of Revelation. So the Christian should be elated that they are not included in the apocalyptic book of punishment and destruction intended for the Jewish audience.
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@ethang5
That was simply to warn you to stay off my threads as moderation has instructed members to do . DID YOU FKN MISS THIS FROM RAGNAR????
if anyone wants to be left alone by another member: The first couple steps are asking them to stop, and ceasing engagement yourself. #13 Ragnar
Stay off my threads ethang5. I don't want to engage you simply so you can bury my threads under your own brainless garbage. You are far too incapable of holding any type of serious discussion on matters that you claim to believe in and convinced you to become a christian. . You simply are not clever enough to comment on my threads.
This is the last time. I have asked you 5 times now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Christians have been deceiving themselves for millennia
Jesus himself makes it perfectly clear why he had returned to Jerusalem:
"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel", he says. Matthew15:24 Well who else?
Jesus was a Jew (of the tribe of Judah). And believed himself to be King of all Israel. All the 12 houses/Tribes of Israel were Israelites that had been scattered throughout the known world by the time of Jesus.
God said: “And I will make you a great nation”.
After King Solomon had died, the Israelites divided their kingdom in two.The north became Israel with 10 tribes. The other two tribes in the south were called Judah. Jesus was of the house of Judah and it was to the lost sheep that made up all 12 houses (Israel) that he had specifically “been sent”to re-unite as Mathew15:24 makes perfectly clear.
In fact the bible tells us that “all Israel“ are “sons of of god”! And the praise of “all” of Israel doesn’t stop there; it goes further telling us that all Jews are “gods”!!!!;
Psalm82:6
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High. Exodus4:22 “Israel is my firstborn son”.
Not a Christian included or a Christian in sight. No matter how much one argues this biblical fact with a Christian, they will always deny it and attempt to reinterpret it and tell us - ‘what Jesus meant ‘.
It should come as no surprise to any atheist that just this one word “ONLY” becomes two completely different words - “all nations”when the Christian attempt to explain away and reinterpret this biblical fact of ‘what Jesus actually meant’. It is nothing more than an attempt to include themselves into the Jew/Israelite god sheep fold.
This of course is clutching at straws, these straws;
Mark16:15 KJV “And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature”, with Matthew 28:19-20 saying similar “all nations” ……….
………..which goes nowhere to explain why Christians are of the mistaken belief that Jesus “was sent to save them”!? Besides, Jesus also says this to his disciples: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew10: 5-6.<<that would be the lost sheep of the nations of Jacob/Israel and Jesus clearly making a distinction between those that are his “lost sheep” and those that are not.
One would think that Christians would have taken the hint considering that not a single one of the four evangelists, Matthew,Mark, Luke, nor John,even mention the words Christian or Christians!? And neither did Jesus.
And even after the death of Jesus the word is only mentioned less than a handful of times!!!
Acts26:28 and Acts 11:26, “The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch ” Syria where there were hundreds of thousands of diaspora (scattered) Jews and those verses were written in Greek nearly 100 years after the crucifixion.
And 1 Peter 4:16 “However,if you suffer as a Christian”, – (dates vary) 65- 85 years after the fact.
And of course it is common knowledge that Jesus failed in his mission to unite these 12 Israelite houses and even to this day they remain dispersed all over the globe.
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@ethang5
@Barney
if anyone wants to be left alone by another member: The first couple steps are asking them to stop, and ceasing engagement yourself. #13 Ragnar
Stay off my threads ethang5. I don't want to engage you simply so you can bury my threads under your own brainless garbage. You are far too incapable of holding any type of serious discussion on matters that you claim to believe in and convinced you to become a christian. .
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@ethang5
@Barney
if anyone wants to be left alone by another member: The first couple steps are asking them to stop, and ceasing engagement yourself. #13 Ragnar
Stay off my threads ethang5. I don't want to engage you simply so you can bury my threads under your own brainless garbage. You are far too incapable of holding any type of serious discussion on matters that you claim to believe in and convinced you to become a christian. .
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@ethang5
@Barney
if anyone wants to be left alone by another member: The first couple steps are asking them to stop, and ceasing engagement yourself. #13 Ragnar
Stay off my threads ethang5. I don't want to engage you simply so you can bury my threads under your own brainless garbage. You are far too incapable of holding any type of serious discussion on matters that you claim to believe in and convinced you to become a christian. .
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@ethang5
@Barney
if anyone wants to be left alone by another member: The first couple steps are asking them to stop, and ceasing engagement yourself. #13 Ragnar
Stay off my threads ethang5. I don't want to engage you simply so you can bury my threads under your own brainless garbage. You are far too incapable of holding any type of serious discussion on matters that you claim to believe in and convinced you to become a christian. .
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@ethang5
@Barney
if anyone wants to be left alone by another member: The first couple steps are asking them to stop, and ceasing engagement yourself. #13 Ragnar
Stay off my threads ethang5. I don't want to engage you simply so you can bury my threads under your own brainless garbage. You are far too incapable of holding any type of serious discussion on matters that you claim to believe in and convinced you to become a christian. .
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What is the best argument for/against the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus, and why?
The apostles didn't even hang around to witness Jesus die at his crucifixion. And the stories of the resurrection and who seen him first vary.
Of the four Gospellers Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they between them only agree on two points: that it was on the third day after the crucifixion Jesus’ tomb is found empty and that the Magdalene was one of those that made the discovery. On all other point all four disagree in their narratives.
This is not to mention that in Mark's original believed to be the earliest gospel according to scholars and tell us Mark never contained the story of Jesus' resurrection but was a later addition by Luke and Mathew.
And Christians simply have to accept that; no one actually witnessed Jesus actaully being resurrected from the dead ritual, they only witnessed an empty tomb and an empty tome is proof only that the tomb was empty.
Anyway:
Who returned to the tomb and resting place of Jesus’ corpse? Take your pick!
“ In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre”. Matthew28:1 KJV
“Now when the Sabbath was passed, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome bought spices that they might come and anoint him”. Mark 16: 1-3 KJV.
“Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James and the other women with them”. Luke 24:10 KJV.
John mentions no one else but Mary;
“Now on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early while it was still dark”. John 20:1 KJV
Paul doesn’t mention the miraculous ascending into heaven event either, no empty tombs, no disappearance from the grave of the physical body,no physical resurrection, no physical appearances of a Christ who would eat, or that Jesus was elevated physically into heaven after a given time. To Paul the body of Jesus who died was degradable,weak, and physical.
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Firstly, we teach our congregation to read the Bible in context and not to simply take verses out of context. #6
Do you now. Well I find that claim simply astounding and unbelievable !! And on two fronts.
[1] When your bible ignorance is pointed out to you, your default is for us "not expect you to knowing everything" in the bible, and claim not to being an "expert", and you regularly confess to "not remembering" things written in scripture when you are caught in the act of showing your biblical schoolboy errors and bible ignorance.
But here you are once again crowing about being able " to teach the bible in context".
Tradesecret wrote: "Firstly, we teach our congregation to read the Bible in context and not to simply take verses out of context."#6
So how are you teaching them?
Do you suddenly put on your remembering trousers on and fall back on the high education that you received from all of the experts in the theological field that you were tutored under that you claim about here>.:
"Istudied and was tutored by academics, scholars, and priests andfathers from the Orthodox Church". #91
[2] And When you have been asked to and given the opportunity to put context into a particular biblical verse you simply refuse. Why ?
Why don't you set this thread straight by simply giving context to the verse in this sentence?
When the disciples were sent into the world blessed with the holy spirit, and the power to cast out demons the power of resurrection Matthew 10:8 had not they passed on these god given powers to other for them to go out and do the same? Or had they simply not obeyed the lords commandments which clearly says :
"Freely you have received; freely you shall give". ?
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@Barney
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@Tradesecret
Stephen No wonder you are such a confused person. Jesus is not saying - "don't put things away for a rainy day".
Those were my words as you perfectly understand, Reverend and not surprisingly have purposefully ignored the meaning of them and by doing so have once again shown your bible ignorance. You just cannot help yourself , can you?
I suppose you have once again "forgotten" the story of the married couple Ananias & Sapphira his wife. They tried to put a bit aside ` for a rainy day ` Reverend, and they - according to scripture - payed with their lives for doing so. Lets read it together shall we?
Acts 5:1-10 New English TranslationThe Judgment on Ananias and Sapphira5 Now a man named Ananias, together with Sapphira his wife, sold a piece of property.2 He kept back for himself part of the proceeds with his wife’s knowledge; he brought only part of it and placed it at the apostles’ feet.3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back for yourself part of the proceeds from the sale of the land?4 Before it was sold, did it not belong to you? And when it was sold, was the money not at your disposal? How have you thought up this deed in your heart? You have not lied to people but to God!”5 When Ananias heard these words he collapsed and died, and great fear gripped all who heard about it.6 So the young men came, wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.7 After an interval of about three hours, his wife came in, but she did not know what had happened.8 Peter said to her, “Tell me, were the two of you paid this amount for the land?” Sapphira said, “Yes, that much.”9 Peter then told her, “Why have you agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!”10 At once she collapsed at his feet and died. So when the young men came in, they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
So here we have none other than Simon Peter the apostle having money laid "at his feet" but wasn't grateful of the donation or satisfied. NO he expected that this married couple hand over ALL of the money from the land ?
This couple had given to the cause but had withheld some "for a rainy day" and paid with their lives for doing so.
So tell me , Reverend, was Simon Peter " only comparing the earth with heaven. The temporary with the eternal" ? #11
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So where was he.?
Are we to believe that he did return but no one noticed? Not even the disciples gifted with the holy spirit, that enabled them to recognise demons and expel them and also raise the dead?
After all, no one seemed to have recognized Elijah when he had come ...........and gone.
But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."Matthew 17:12
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I hear yet again the deafening silence of Christians just rushing to defend yet another biblical anomaly.
The prophesy made by Gabriel (god is my strength) couldn't have been further from the truth. Jesus it appears was a sponger. He mooched and scrounged off the "women of substance" in his entourage.
Luke 8:3
"Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod's household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means".
What is means to be a "woman of substance".
Luke 8:2-3. "and certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna and many others, which ministered unto Him of their substance."
Definition of a man/woman/person of substance
literary
: a person who is rich and powerful
Yes he surrounded himself with the rich and powerful did Jesus. These women owned property too. For instance, his center of operations was in "the wilderness" at a house in Bethany. John 11
Yet the bible has attempted to push the importance of these devoted loyal women into the background or completely out of the picture altogether.
Indeed Jesus' own mother gets very few scenes in the story of Jesus once he is born. And of the few mentions she does get we find it is Jesus more or less telling his mother, she of the sacred womb - to FK off and disowning her saying : " “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” Matthew 12:48 . And does Jesus ever refer to his mother as - mother? No. he simply addresses her disrespectfully as " women!" John 2:4
Why is it that the church and or the New Testament authors are desperate to play down the important role that these "rich women of substance" played in the life of Jesus and how important they were to his movement and mission.? <<<That question is worthy of a thread of its own.
The point here is that Jesus inherited nothing as the angel of god prophesised he would and certainly not the Throne of King David.. the only thing that Jesus inherited was John the baptist massive following after John's death...... and that didn't age well either. Maybe it was John that was the rightful heir to the throne of King David?
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@Tradesecret
I am admitting my ignorance of it - although I know Stephen will delight in my ignorance to demonstrate how dumb I am.
Not at all, Reverend. I am though delighting in the fact that you are admitting your ignorance for once instead of defaulting to your usual claim of having simply "forgot".
Very refreshing. Now keep it up.
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@Tradesecret
And Jesus appears to have surrounded himself with rich men and women and people of influence?This is not accurate. Jesus was surrounded by both rich and poor people. He was surrounded by righteous and drunkards and prostitutes.
Bold statement , lets see if you can support it. Who in Jesus' inner circle were "drunkards and prostitutes", Reverend? And just for once, please let us se the BIBLICAL evidence.
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To whom it may concern
Regarding the suggestion that Tradesecret and ethang5 are the same user,
Sorry for the late reply. Just to set the record straight. I accused them of no such thing. I have accused them of sharing a password. I did this weeks before my ban and oddly at the time no one complained. I stand by that accusation and as I admitted at the time, I could never prove it. >>>> #78 Added12.23.20 05:39PM.
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We do have to question how it all went so fatefully and terribly wrong considering a messenger with a name like Gabriel (god is my strength) had specifically told this "virgin" girl that her son would inherit the throne of his ancestor, King David.
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For centuries now many Christians sects have been prophesying the "second coming" and one has to wonder why they even bothered considering Jesus made it clear at the time that some ( if not all) of those living at the time would witness his return.
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@BrotherDThomas
Uh, have you seen Tradesecret in other threads at DEBATEART
Not recently Brother. But in all fairness to him Brother, it may have something to do with his very heavy and demanding work scheduled. .. #63
It may be the case that he is at one University or another lecturing students and repeating those "biblical axioms"which you often highlight for him?
It could be that he is in court representing the Melbourne priest that was arrested ( I think ) last year for sexual misconduct? Or has that case finished now? Who knows? Anyway, The Reverend is a flat out busy man.
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And what happened with the "GREAT COMMISION"?
Matthew 28:16-20
"Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".
When the disciples were sent into the world blessed with the holy spirit, and the power to cast out demons the power of resurrection Matthew 10:8 had not they passed on these god given powers to other for them to go out and do the same? Or had they simply not obeyed the lords commandments which clearly says :
"Freely you have received; freely you shall give". ?
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@n8nrgmi
is Brother Thomas right about the attributes of Jesus?
Interesting, is it not, that we only became just like them with all of the aforementioned attributes, after being deceived by one of them. Genesis 3:22
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@Tradesecret
3RU7AL wrote: Are you indirectly killing those children by not devoting your energy and resources to feeding some starving children?Tradesecret wrote: #64 I devote a significant amount of my resources in trying to prevent abortions from happening. I also devote a significant amount of resources to programs which enable people to adopt children. I also devote a significant amount of my resources towards helping people who are left in homeless situations and are expected to be looked after by the government and its welfare programs.I provide resources to my local church as well who have significant means of assisting people in impoverished places around the world and locally.
““Watchout! [Sayeth the Lord] “ Don’t do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew6:1
How many times Reverend? >>
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.Matthew 22:29
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How could Gabriel get it so wrong?
Luke1:26-38
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”:
Depending on who one chooses to believe, Jesus’ ministry lasted one year(some argue three+ years) and in that time is all he seemed to have managed to do was attempt to reunite the lost tribes or “lost sheep” of Israel and failed, surround himself with rich zealots,and other rich individuals of power and influence, upset the ruling classes, say some philosophical sounding and bias things and inherited nothing but three nails, two bits of wood, a very thorny crown with a lovely view overlooking the Kidron Valley as he hung their suffering on the crucifix made from said materials.
This is far from a throne of any description isn’t it? Especially the “great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold.” of King David,> > > 1Kings 10:18 and all the tonnes & tonnes of gold and the tonnes and tonnes of silver that he couldn’t seem to find use for so had simply left just lying around in the street. > > >1Kings 10:27
What happened!!!!?
What had gone so wrong with gods plan to send a saviour Messiah that would unite the “lost sheep of Israel” and free Israel from the Roman yoke!? AND inherit the throne of King David?
Gabriel mentions nothing to Mary the mother of this very special“immaculately” conceived child about his failed mission on earth and of him suffering such a barbaric and violent death. Why did he keep this from her? And what about the- all of a sudden absentee“father”, Joseph? He seems to have been written out of the story altogether and less informed about his child god’s failed mission and barbaric early demise? Maybe Joseph had a visit of his own telling him to get out of town before the shit hits the fan? It is not as if he knew nothing of the “immaculate conception” or the birth is it?> > > Matthew1:20.
Even simple human doctors are compassionate enough inform the parents of children born with god given defects of what the outcome of their child's life is likely to be. But in this case we have a messenger of god no less, telling this chosen “virgin” outright lies about the fate of her son.
Why?
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Acts 2:43-45
43 "Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles".
I just bet they were. And the next thing you know.
44 "All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need".
Sounds like communism.
communism
/ˈkɒmjʊnɪz(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
- a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs
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Interesting it is that even Jesus` prayers went unanswered while his skin sweated blood brought about by sheer terrifying fear as he thought of the ordeal he was about to face, (Luke22:44). Yet, just like those grieving parents, he hadn't prayed for worldly "pleasures" or the "lustful things of this world" that James 4:3-4 speaks of. Nor had they prayed to have their mortgages paid off or holidays in Hawaii. In other words , they were not prayers for selfish desires and only a sheer retard and utter dunce of a cretin in denial, would deuce they were. No! Jesus, as in the case of those desperate grieving and faithful parents BOTH had prayed for LIFE from the LIFE giver himself. He that says :
"I am the resurrection and the LIFE."
"I am the bread of LIFE".
“I am the way, and the truth, and the LIFE."
"I came that they may have LIFE and have it abundantly".
indeed, once Jesus begins speaking about LIFE, there simply is no shutting him up from telling us about his love for LIFE and how we should love LIFE.
So wtf happened?
I wonder if the prayers of these sad , faithful grieving parents would be answered if they were to simply inquire of god - the giver of life- in prayer why it was their prayers to save and raise their children weren't answered?
There again what should we make of Isaiah1:15-17 that tells us god says “ When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood”.….Stop doing wrong”.
I wonder what it was that Jesus and these grief stricken faithful parents of dead babies had done so wrong not to be heard and watch their prayers go unanswered. What blood had Jesus on his hands? What blood had these parents had on theirs? Had not their sins been forgiven? Had not the "ransom" been paid?
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed." Isaiah 53:4-5
And to add to all of this confusion Matthew21:22 insists, " And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith".
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