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@Dr.Franklin
o? Are you saying that every one of the thousands that had witnessed this wonder worker in action were cowards? What would you have done , Doc? Would you have gone along to the trial and protest the innocence of Jesus and ask for his release? Its a simply question Doc?Is this even an objection or are you just curious? and they were there, it describes the women weeping as Jesus was getting killed.
You'er dogging the question , Doc. And the women weren't even mentioned as being at the trial. The women , strangely, wailed only after Jesus was relived of the cross by Simon the Cyrene who just happened to be returning to the city after a leisurely walk in the countryside- poor Simon. And a handful of women does not a multitude of ungrateful followers make, Doc.
Im curious, what does this prove? Does this prove that the Bible is false or that the Jesus story is inconsistent? What
I think it proves that Jesus wasn't as popular with the Jews as Christians like to imagine him to have been. These wonders and miracles were obviously not good enough for them to go along to the trial and ask, NO ! demand Jesus' immediate release, and they were there to witness the miracles and wonders, wasn't they , Doc?
Would you have gone along to the trial and protest the innocence of Jesus and demand for his release?
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@Bringerofrain
You are ignoring that it is a high context language
Oh stop it FFS! I am ignoring nothing. But I will ignore you if you carry on this bullshite.
Accept it, you are wrong. Jesus lied and I don't fkn blame him.
I have shown you what the word "secret" meant in ancient Greek. You have made up some bullshit and tried to tell us that " greek word translated to secret means "more detail"#15 <<<<< this is just absolute bullshit. I have offered you the ancient Greek lexicon. You have not even looked at it although I have highlighted the relevant word AND ITS MEANING for you and in its ANCIENT scriptural definition. It says exactly what I have said it means and as JESUS meant it . Take it or leave it.
HERE IT IS AGAIN>>>>
A1. Secret, Secretly [Adjective] kruptos "secret, hidden" (akin to krupto, "to hide"), Eng., "crypt," "cryptic," etc., is used as an adjective and rendered "secret" in Luke 8:17, AV (RV, "hid"); in the neuter, with en, "in," as an adverbial phrase, "in secret," with the article, Matt 6:4,6 (twice in each Matt 6:without the article, John 7:4,10; John 18:20; in the neuter plural, with the article, "the secrets (of men)," Rom 2:16; of the heart, 1 Cor 14:25; in Luke 11:33, AV, "a secret place" (RV, "cellar"). See CELLAR, HIDDEN, INWARDLY.
Do you see that ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ !!!!!!/ It say HIDDEN
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@BrotherDThomas
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@Bringerofrain
True, If he lied here, I certainly wouldn't blame him.
He did lie, and I do not blame him.
I just think in this context instead of saying secret it should have said something like.....
But he point blank said that he spoke nothing in secret, regardless of what you or the gospel writers think they should have said.
I don't see these things as contradictions though.
I said Jesus lied or the biblical authors put words in the mouth of Christ .
Just as it may have happened here where not a single christian has even attempted to square away what are contradictions spoken by Jesus himself.
Here, give them a go >>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5642-if-these-were-not-jesus-own-contradictory-words .....
I also think you're wasting your time arguing against people who would take the Bible in a very literal way.
Well. That is entirely up to me isn't it.
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@janesix
probably, but I don't remember. Why?
Because above you spoke of "God has attributes, like emotions that I can't comprehend"#11. To which I relied:
From my understanding humans are ten a penny and disposable to a god that doesn't flinch at the killing of children. Have you never read the 50 lines that make up the short sad story of Job, said by god to be "a perfect and an upright man"? Job 1.#12
i.e god shows absolutely no emotions when it comes to humans and his own ego, see Job 1..
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@Bringerofrain
You are still ignoring that this is a translation from greek
No I have addressed that point. You claim it didn't mean secret, you haven't told me what it means .
I asked you:
Well you tell me this; what did Jesus mean when he used the word "secret" ? John 18:20
You replied :
" In that context it means in a general way nothing was secret".
Jesus may well have been telling them that everyone knew what he was teaching and he hadn't hidden nothing and all was known and in the open "and nothing was secret" , but that wasn't true was it?
I have asked you what Jesus meant when he used the word "secret". So tell me what the word secret means in Greek. I know it simply means "mystery OR HIDDEN". i.e something that is a mystery and the key known only to the few is a secret if they are not telling.
The bible admits that Jesus taught " the mysteries " in secret. . Jesus admits to teaching secret things IN SECRET. Jesus lied. And who could blame him, he was on trial for his life.
Anyone with even a basic understanding of greek knows the greek word translated to secret means "more detail" in one context and in the other supposedly contradictory statement the word "secret" is not even translated from the same greek word
You need to bone up on your Greek <<< with a capital G, my friend.
A1. Secret, Secretly [Adjective] kruptos "secret, hidden" (akin to krupto, "to hide"), Eng., "crypt," "cryptic," etc., is used as an adjective and rendered "secret" in Luke 8:17, AV (RV, "hid"); in the neuter, with en, "in," as an adverbial phrase, "in secret," with the article, Matt 6:4,6 (twice in each Matt 6:without the article, John 7:4,10; John 18:20; in the neuter plural, with the article, "the secrets (of men)," Rom 2:16; of the heart, 1 Cor 14:25; in Luke 11:33, AV, "a secret place" (RV, "cellar"). See CELLAR, HIDDEN, INWARDLY.
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@Soluminsanis
Clearly what Jesus told nicodemus WASN'T in secret, otherwise his disciples wouldn't have know about it and wrote it down
Jesus taught the same mysteries to Nicodemus in secret as he had done his disciples in secret. Read your bible. You will find the relevant verse in posts above.
otherwise his disciples wouldn't have know about it and wrote it down.
Well then we could adopt that attitude to the whole of the scripture couldn't we.
How do the gospel writers know the words spoken between Pilate an Jesus when there was only the two of them in the room?
How do the gospel writers know what the Devil said to Jesus in the "wilderness" when there were only two of them present?
How do the gospel writers know that Jesus taught Nicodemus the "mysteries of the kingdom of god" when they had met in secret and there were only two of them present ?
I could carry on in this vein but I would like you to explain all the above before I do so.
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@Bringerofrain
In that context it means in a general way nothing was secret.
Jesus was on trial for his life. He was being interrogated about what he had been teaching his disciples. There is no mistaking what he was being asked to reveal.
The priests obviously believed Jesus to have been teaching secret (mysteries) things, in secret. Which he denies.:
John 18:19-21
The High Priest Questions Jesus
19 Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.
21 "I said nothing in secret". <<< So we are clearly talking about secrets and secrecy.
Mark 9:30 talks about secrecy. Matthew 13:10-12 talks about secrecy many many times.
Jesus even admits at one point in the scriptures, refuses to reveal any secrets to them. And if you have read your scriptures you would know this yourself.
Why are you attempting to waive away the fact that all this is to do with Jesus denying doing anything in secret, when on many occasions the bible makes it clear that Jesus did things in secret al the time and strictly orders people not to tell anyone. In other words " to keep it secret".
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@Bringerofrain
What are the other possible interpretations of those translated greek words besides "secret".
Well you tell me this; what did Jesus mean when he used the word "secret" ? John 18:20
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@Bringerofrain
"Occult"simply means - hidden.
Something hidden is not for public view, it is secret. The scriptures clearly state that Jesus taught Nicodemus in secret away from public view at night only , under the cover of darkness. Therefore , Jesus was teaching not in the open, as he clearly claims to have done ( John 18: 19-21) but in secret. What he was teaching is irrelevant.
Jesus admitted withholding certain teachings from the general populace while teaching "the mysteries" to others. Matthew 13:10-12.
Jesus was forever telling people not to even mention his name or speak about him. Mark 3:12.
Jesus was forever trying to keep his whereabouts secret. Mark 7:24.
Jesus passed through Galilee because he did not want anyone to know where they were because he was teaching his disciples [in secret].Mark 9:30
The thread is not about what Jesus was doing or what it was that he was saying in secret, the thread is concerned with Jesus saying :
"I said nothing in secret".John 18: 19-21 when the "god breathed" scriptures tell us to the contrary.
So as I asked here about Jesus' own biblical contradictions>>>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5642-if-these-were-not-jesus-own-contradictory-words ..... I ask again, is Jesus lying or have the New Testament authors put words into the mouth of the Christ?
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@BrotherDThomas
Numbers 23:19God is not human, that he should lie,
So says the verse Brother. But it is clear that Jesus lied about being open and not doing anything in secret.
You will not get any pseudo-christians to partake within this thread
Well why would they, Brother. They are on a hiding to nothing if they attempt to explain away what is just a very clear lie concerning Jesus'secrecy? As I said. There are very clear examples of Jesus being secret on many occasions too that the Christian will have to explain away or put into " context" every single one.
For instance, the many times he does something and orders someone "not to tell".
Mark 3:12 But he gave them strict orders not to tell others about him.
And here>
Mark 7:24 He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret.
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@janesix
From my understanding humans are ten a penny and disposable to a god that doesn't flinch at the killing of children. Have you never read the 50 lines that make up the short sad story of Job, said by god to be "a perfect and an upright man"? Job 1.I'm not a Christian, and have no reason to believe God is the Abrahamic God.
I didn't ask you if you were a Christian Jane. I asked you if you had read a short story about a god that Christians do believe in and worship.
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@Dr.Franklin
they were vastly outnumbered in the province ...................... that just my guess
So? Are you saying that every one of the thousands that had witnessed this wonder worker in action were cowards? What would you have done , Doc? Would you have gone along to the trial and protest the innocence of Jesus and ask for his release? Its a simply question Doc?
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@Dr.Franklin
You haven't explained why Jesus wouldn't appear to disbelievers today when he had done so to one of his own disbelieving apostles who he had "blessed" for not believing Jesus had risen from the "dead"?. SEE>>>John20:29I did, the disbelievers today show no effort to reach God, hence God will not reach out to them.
"disbelievers today" BULLSHIT!
Was this a perquisite to Thomas?. Thomas , he that had witnessed the raising of Lazarus from the dead, and then point blank refused to believe Jesus was raised from the dead with the caveat "UNLESS".!? He appeared to him didn't he? THOMAS DISBELIVED didn't he?!!
You haven't explained why Jesus don't appear today to the devout and believing mother praying and begging on her knees to Jesus for the life of her child when he had done so to a person that had made it his life's mission to hunt down and murder members of Jesus' flock including women?this makes no sense for a number of reasons your argument is all over the place, all you do is take scripture and add objections that dont really matter and can be explained by the easiest theology.
Maybe that is because you don't understand my question.
Let me put it as plain as I can for you.
Why can Jesus not do the same for unbelievers today and show proof of his existence?
BECAUSE!!!
Paul admits that he made it his life's mission to hunt down and kill and persecuted Christians as heretics . Acts 22: 4 and here Acts 8:1-3. PAUL didn't believe did he? YET Jesus, uninvited, and without even being asked by Paul, came back to earth after the accession and made an appearance to Paul .
So stop pretending that you cannot see the obvious point being made.
Jesus appeared and offered proof to a disbelieving Thomas and not once did he reprimand Thomas for being "of little faith" as he had done others that had doubted and disbelieved. Here Matthew 6:30: here Matthew 8:26: here Matthew 16:8: . And neither did Jesus strike Thomas dumb for disbelieving as had Zechariah. Luke 1:20
Play as dumb as you like Doc, but the FACT is, according to the bible, Jesus appeared to people that had doubted and disbelieved him, yet won't afford the same to even a BELIEVING mother begging and praying on here knees for the life of her sick child.
all you do is take scripture and add objections that dont really matter
I have asked you how is it that god is willing to appear to some disbelievers and not others or even those that do believe in him?
AND you don't know do you?
that dont really matter
It may not "matter" to you Doc, but I am sure that it matters to many a disbelieving and believing mother kneeling and praying to Jesus at her terminally sick child's bedside.
You simply cannot square the actions of your god , can you. You accuse me of being "all over the place" while ignoring the erratic and contradictive nature of your own god, Jesus.
Go away Doc. You have run out of excuses.
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@janesix
I don't think I'm smart enough to have created my own reality.
We all create another reality everyday, Jayne. The chair you are siting on isn't real, it is a creation of man. It didn't grown from out of the earth and it didn't fall from a tree. You didn't reach out and pluck it from a chair bush and it didn't crawl out of the sea. i.e it doesn't exist in nature but in your own created reality.
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@janesix
What can humans claim to have created or invented? Nothing.
No Jayne. We have had to create our own `reality `.
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@janesix
I assume, for no particular reason, that God has attributes, like emotions etc that I can't comprehend.
Not too sure about that Jayne. From my understanding humans are ten a penny and disposable to a god that doesn't flinch at the killing of children. Have you never read the 50 lines that make up the short sad story of Job, said by god to be "a perfect and an upright man"? Job 1.
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@Intelligence_06
And what about "gods agenda"? As per OP
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As a follow on from this thread concerning Jesus' own biblical contradictions where not a single Christian has taken on the challenge to explain here>> Titled:
If These Were Not Jesus' Own Contradictory Words....
....there is also the obvious blatant lie (one of many) told by the Christ himself that Christians will also have to explain or put into "context" for us.
Jesus is under arrest and is being interrogated at his first trial by the high priesthood where he claims:
John 18: 19-21.
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said" .
But is this true?
Answer, no, it isn't true by any means.
Just two of many examples are:
We know for instance that Jesus met with a rich Pharisee named Nicodemus a "ruler of the Jews" in secret under the cover of darkness where it is said that Jesus taught him about the mysteries "of the kingdom of god". John 3:1-3
And there is the famous quote where Jesus admits to secret teachings for one section of the Jewish population while withholding such secrets teaching from others:
Hereplied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom ofheaven has been given to you, but not to them". Matthew 13:10-12.
Can the faithful explain these lies told by the Christ himself?
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So It appears then that the ungrateful Jews that had witnessed all of the miracles and wonders that are alleged to have been performed by Jesus had pleaded for the life of Jesus Barabbas a terrorist, and had preferred that their own saviour be executed? There has to be a good reason for this if this is what historically happened?
Not even the Pharisee who's daughter Jesus had brought back "from the dead" turned out show his support and appreciation for what Jesus had done for him and his wife.
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@zedvictor4
Yep. After telling me " You are an interesting poster.,#40 He apologised to me #41, then blocked me about 8 months ago. #42
Which is a shame, as this is a very interesting discussion to have, as long as you know the scriptures of course.
But most of those here that claim to have read the bible, never have read it for themselves of by themselves. , Vic.
I posed a very similar question on the this forum a few times, as I mentioned above #3. No one took it on at the time.
It looks like someone has simply rearranged my question and posed it themselves, and good for them. I will be interested in any responses, or better still, fact supported answers that this thread attracts.
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Just another way of posing my old favorite question that I have been posing to Christians for decades and on this forum since I joined:
WHY, did god create anything at all in the first place?
The bible itself offers only one single possible explanation for our own creation. Just one.
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@Soluminsanis
I am still struggling to see what it is that you are saying that Atheist are deceiving themselves about?
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@BrotherDThomas
How many people does the bible say the devil killed , Brother?Regarding the Devil, and I know I am preaching to the choir with you, the only people the Devil killed within the scriptures were the ten people all from the same family of Job. To make it worse, the killing was a side wager with Jesus' agreement and permission, just to prove a petty egotistical point regarding God's favorite pet at the time, named Job. That's why Jesus wouldn't allow the Devil to actually kill off Job, but what about Job's family or others, they are allowed to be killed in this bet! (Job 1:6-1)
Correct Brother, ten,,, children and all instigated and sanctioned by god himself.
So keeping with the theme of this thread, I am willing to accept that there is a god of the Christians if the author is willing to explain why and is willing to accept that "god" is willing to kill innocent children at the drop of an hat and for no other reason than a wager and with none other than Satan the great deceiver himself, and who "god" had sentenced to crawl on his belly to eat dirt for the rest of eternity!? Genesis 3:14
And the author also has to explain to me what was Satan doing just walking about and going to and fro on the earth after such a severe sentence that was supposed to be for "eternity".?
" And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."Job 2:2
Conversely, I don't have to tell you in how many MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of Jesus' Jewish creation, along with non-jewish people, have been killed by Jesus the Christ as Yahweh God incarnate! At times, they were unfortunately BRUTAL murders by Jesus, but I accept this Biblical axiom and try and move on the best way that I can.
No, you do not have to tell me , Brother. The comparison is stark .
And no matter how many times one reads the bible, Brother, you will never find a single verse where anyone prays for or forgives Satan. Yet I have lost count of the times the bible and god drive home the importance of forgiving and forgiveness. Will the author I wonder, explain why?
No one forgave Judas or ever prayed for him either. I wonder if the author is willing to explain that away for us too?
This also seems to have slipped the authors mind #24
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@ronjs
It seems that most skeptics are unwilling
It seems that you are a little short on replies and answers, yourself. #24
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@secularmerlin
That some end times preaching religious dissident was executed by the Roman government it is not unreasonable.
Correct. Especially one that had - by all accounts - accumulated a massive following and growing financial support from all quarters and that was presenting a threat to the status quo.
But this doesn't answer the questions, does it?
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@Dr.Franklin
I DID take on your question,
No Doc. You haven't. Is all you have done is ask a question of your own and in dismissive tones, HERE>>> Dr.Franklin wrote: " why should he reach out to you"? here>> #27 .
You haven't explained why Jesus wouldn't appear to disbelievers today when he had done so to one of his own disbelieving apostles who he had "blessed" for not believing Jesus had risen from the "dead"?. SEE>>>John20:29
You haven't explained why Jesus don't appear today to the devout and believing mother praying and begging on her knees to Jesus for the life of her child when he had done so to a person that had made it his life's mission to hunt down and murder members of Jesus' flock including women?
SEE>>>Acts 22: 4 “I worked hard and killed men and women who believed as I believe today. I put them in chains and sent them to prison.
SEE>>>Acts 8:1-3 On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
You haven't explained how it is that some people are reprimanded for being of "little faith" while others are not. SEE>>>
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" about tomorrow :
Matthew 6:30: “ O ye of little faith?”
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they may lose their lives in a storm:
Matthew 8:26: “ O ye of little faith"?
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they hadn't any bread:
”Matthew 16:8: “ O ye of little faith",
Luke repeats Matthew 6:30 where the apostles are " "worrying" about tomorrow:
”Luke 12:28: “O ye of little faith?”
You haven't explained why is it that a person can be struck dumb for doubting and another is "blessed" for doubting as in the case of Zechariah. SEE >>> Luke 1:20
Just say you don't know Doc (if you don't) then go away and chew on those very poignant questions that you appear to keep avoiding and trying to bury.
And didn't Thomas "tempt the lord" when he demanded evidence of Jesus' resurrection from Jesus himself?
Why isn't there even a hint of a warning here about tempting the lord,!?
Why do "Y’all ignore" :
"Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah". Deuteronomy 6:16 ?
i dont know what you are talking about now?
You do Doc you just want to keep avoiding and burying the questions.
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@Dr.Franklin
are you asking why they killed Jesus?
Nope.
I am asking where were all those thousands of people that had witnessed his miracles and sermons, when it came to the crunch? Read post one, Doc. #1
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@3RU7AL
One of the most tragic things that can happen in a person's life is an unwillingness to pursue and seek out their Creator.What if they found a "god" that doesn't happen to match your personally preferred description?
10/10.. I think you know the answer to that, though.
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@BrotherDThomas
We know of the niceties that Jesus has created upon earth, but under the passage shown above, Jesus also created hurricanes that kill His JEWISH followers, and unfortunately, NON JEWISH people as well. In Jesus creating ALL, and I repeat, ALL things, then to name just a few, Jesus created cancer that has killed many, He has created severe birth defects, Ebola, Malaria, Pneumonia, and most importantly, the Covid-19 virus that has killed millions upon this earth at this time! As a TRUE Christian, I have to accept these facts shown herewith, whereas you as a mere pseudo-christian, can only "try" and apologetically spin doctor the facts above away.
Brother.
I find it a relief that there is at least in you one christian that is willing to face the obvious biblical facts about your jealous, child killing, warmongering god.
How many people does the bible say the devil killed , Brother?
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@Soluminsanis
One of the most tragic things that can happen in a person's life is an unwillingness to pursue and seek out their Creator.
Have you perused sought out your creator? Where did you look? Can you show the skeptic what you discovered from your pursuits of the creator?
Skeptics can't see God not because there's no evidence, but because there's so much evidence they have shut their eyes.
And you know this how?
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@ronjs
Man's own unwillingness to see the proof of Gods existence
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After all of the witnessing of “miracles & wonders” by hundreds of thousands of Jewish people and hundreds of thousands more hearing those wonderful sermons about selling your worldly goods to give “poor” and buy swords, it appears that the short minded and forgetful Jews still couldn’t recognise a “messiah” when they seen and heard one in action. Or could they?
The crowds, we are told were so desperate to watch this man Jesus work his miracles and wonders that they would climb trees to get just a glimpse of him or cut holes in the roof of the house just to get a better view and be nearer to him. Mark3:20 – Mark4:1 – Luke 7:11 – Luke 8:19 Luke 12:1. Thousands upon thousands had also travelled long distances too:
“many people came to him from Judea, Jerusalem, Idumea, and the regions across the Jordan and around Tyre and Sidon”. Mark 3:7-9
And it is said that just a glimpse of Jesus was enough to have the Jews“overwhelmed with wonder” and clamouring to greet him”. Mark9:14
So to say he was `held in high esteem` doesn't even cover it does it.
How then could it all suddenly be forgotten by thousands of people that had witnessed Jesus healing the sick and making dead people alive again on so many occasions? What about all those wedding guests that he had kept in booze all day, John2:1-11, had even they too forgot this “miracle”?
Where were the five thousand and the four thousand that had heard the sermons spoken by the “son of god” himself and who had fed every single one of them? Matthew 14:13-21, Matthew 15:29-39.
Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?" Matthew27:17;
“Barabbas,”they answered. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!?
Luke23:25 offers a little more information by telling us that:
“He released the man [Barabbas] who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, but he delivered Jesus over to their will”.
So these ungrateful Jews- those he had actaully been sent so save - it appears, preferred it that a murder was let loose amongst them to run the streets.
Why then did the multitude of Jews choose the murdering zealot Jesus Barabbas over the son of god and prince of peace Jesus the Messiah?Jesus after all, was the messiah allegedly prophesied about in the OT and recognise to be the messiah by non other than John the baptist,“the greatest prophet that was ever born of woman” Matthew11:8-11.
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Jesus we are told above had "blessed" Thomas for doubting his resurrection and asking for proof.
It appears that the Jesus himself understood that us mere mortals need proof and had no problem what so ever with providing it to the unbelievers of his day .
Take this story from John 4:46-52.
Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum. When this man heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and begged him to come and heal his son, who was close to death.“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
The royal official said, “Sir, come down before my child dies.”
“Go,” Jesus replied, “your son will live.”
The man took Jesus at his word and departed. While he was still on the way, his servants met him with the news that his boy was living. When he inquired as to the time when his son got better, they said to him, “Yesterday, at one in the afternoon, the fever left him.”
Why isn't there even a hint of a warning here about tempting the lord,!?
Why do "Y’all ignore" :
"Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah". Deuteronomy 6:16 ?
Why do "Y’all ignore" the fact that Jesus drives home the fact that - "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Matthew 4:7
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@ronjs
It seems that most skeptics are unwilling to see the proof (evidence) of Gods existence
[A] I have never seen a single piece of evidence for the existence of the god that Christians believe exists. Are you claiming such a god exists?
and mainly ask questions that are not relevant to the subject,
In your opinion, is questioning the reliability of the bible relevant to the subject?
because, i think, they really don't want an answer
Well that is where your totally wrong in my case. I would like all of the questions that I have concerning the bible, answered. Would you like a short list or a long one?
Also there is the problem of [A] above.
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@secularmerlin
Atheists: what are some qualities that you like about religious people?
I have found that some of the qualities religious people have are as great or as good as the qualities as those of my irreligious friends and family.
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@Dr.Franklin
no he didnt fail miserably,
If you, like me accept that there was indeed an historical Jesus, then he clearly failed at his mission to unit and rule over his CHOSEN people the Jews and died a miserable tortuous death for his efforts. In his own words Jesus explains who he had been sent to and why. He failed.
While he was here he lied and contradicted himself or the gospel writers are simply inventing stories about him and putting words into his mouth..
See here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5642-if-these-were-not-jesus-own-contradictory-words
Jesus has no reason not to show himself considering he showed himself to the unbelieving murderer -Paul - who admits to killing and imprisoning members of his own flock including women.Acts 22: 4 - Acts 8:1-3
You have ignored the fact that Thomas refused to believe Jesus was resurrected yet was "blessed" not reprimanded for his point blank refusal to believe without physical proof ( which Jesus clearly then offeredJohn20:29 without an argument ) yet won't answer a prayer from a devout christian mother begging and pleading for the life of her child.
Now I ask you again, either take on my questions in this thread or leave it . If you don't have any answerers at all then say so and leave. If you had no answers to begin with, then you had no business on this thread in the first place, did you.
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Deuteronomy7:7-8
It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Yes , I remember reading how the Lord brought all of the Christians our of bondage in Egypt.
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@3RU7AL
“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”This seems like a perfectly reasonable request for evidence.
It does. And in Thomas' case, Jesus also must have thought so too as there was no reprimand about daring to "tempt the lord god". Matthew 4:7.
Jesus must have waived the rules in Thomas' case. Anyone else seems to be punished or reprimanded and snapped at for being "of little faith"for having the audacity as to ask Jesus for evidence and because they had the utter nerve to "disbelieve".
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@secularmerlin
It is so good to hear that you have NEVER EVER DONE ANYTHING WRONG AND DON'T HAVE TO APOLOGIZE AND WON'T APOLOGIZE AND IT IS ALL THEM.
I don't know how you have come to such a conclusion about me from my explaining to you my own experiences with the Christian faithful and what it is they have faith in.
Regretfully, I have done wrong and I have been wrong. But oddly Christians never seems to see themselves as ever being wrong about the bible being wrong, contradictory, ambiguous and riddled with anomalous half stories when it comes to their own beliefs and the faith they hold in their own ancient scriptures. In my own experience they are always wrong, they can never face the facts and never apologize when proven to be wrong. Faith, I will concede, is powerful thing. And I have never set out to even attempt to change someones faith. I have only ever questioned that which the faithful have faith in.
is to ask why they believe it and take the conversation from there.
Yep, that is exactly what I do in the case of what it is that Christians have faith in.
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@secularmerlin
Perhaps the better approach, assuming you know what they believe at all, is to ask why they believe it and take the conversation from there.
That is all I ever do. I ask the believing Christians questions about what it is they believe in. i.e. I ask them question concerning their own subject of belief.
I started a thread asking how a person becomes a Christian by choice? Hardly a single one could tell me directly how or why they became a Christian. It seems this is a prickly subject. If you'er interested >>>
I have always maintained that the greatest question anyone can ask a member of the faith is - why did god create anything in the first place? Wasn't he happy in his heavenly abode being among all of his heavenly angelic creations? This too seems a prickly subject for them to discuss.
The great deception of claiming some great deception
I have also a thread on Christians deceiving themselves and it appears they want to avoid that prickly subject too and would rather discuss something else rather than the theme of the thread. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5621-great-christian-deception
why they believe it
Theist simply do not like being asked awkward and inconvenient questions about what they believe in and the scriptures in particular.. It scares them. See their latest avoidances of the facts here >>>
they don't know what the "will to be done " actaully is although they repeat this mantra a billion times a day >> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5282-thy-will-be-done
They don't know what gods "plan" is >>>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5332-can-christians-prove-god-had-a-plan-for-us-all
And they deny what is written in their own scriptures, when it is convenient for them to do so.
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@3RU7AL
Interesting that I find yet again that it is the theist that is struggling to even approach the questions but instead choose to take the easier rout of talking about "faith" and what the Book of Mormon has to say while ignoring the fundamental questions of the op.
Jesus would rather show himself to a persecuting murderer of the followers in his own flock than to the devout member of his own congregation praying for the life of a child. And Paul/Saul wasn't even a disciple of Jesus or an apostle before his Road to Damascus moment. Read for yourself > Pauls past life Acts 22: 4 . Read how Paul destroyed the church and dragged women from their own homes and imprisoned them: > Acts 8:1-3. Yet he gets to have a one to one during a personal visit from Jesus himself.
And in spite of all he is said to have witnessed with his own eyes, and all the times that Jesus son of god himself had spoke about his resurrection, Thomas can be celebrated for disbelieving Jesus was resurrected from the "dead" unless he had physical proof!? Isn't this "blaspheme"????
“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”John 20:24 ?
Is this not "testing god"?
What ever happened to ;
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Matthew 4:7 ?????????? It appears that absolutely nothing happens if we question and tempt Jesus. Well, not if your name is Thomas.
Compare the reaction by Jesus to Thomas' complete lack of faith to the scolding he gives to his other disciples for simply worrying about things that mere mortals do naturally worry about :
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" about tomorrow :
Matthew 6:30: “ O ye of little faith?”
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they may lose their lives in a storm:
Matthew 8:26: “ O ye of little faith"?
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they hadn't any bread:
”Matthew 16:8: “ O ye of little faith",
Luke repeats Matthew 6:30 where the apostles are " "worrying" about tomorrow:
”Luke 12:28: “O ye of little faith?”
Interesting too that John the baptist also "doubted" Jesus. Matthew 11:3
Jesus doubted his " father ". Matthew 27:46
At #4 fauxlaw has suggested that Thomas was "blessed" for his doubting attitude and demanding proof.
Yet when we read of Zechariah's doubting reaction to the news that his "barren wife" was to have a baby he was struck dumb for his doubting and disbelieving.
" And now, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time,you will be silent, unable to speak, until the day these things take place" .Luke 1:20
There is absolutely no reason why Jesus should not afford us doubting theists the same proof that he afforded the doubting Thomas or the murderer Paul. It would be a little price to pay being struck dumb for the gestation period of nine months if it meant Jesus showing up and putting the world to rights.
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen,..................As I have said many times before, there is nothing worse for a TRUE Christian like myself to have a Hell Bound Atheist explicitly show me that my JUDEO-Christian Bible contradicts itself!
Brother, it appears then that Paul, the once persecutor and murderer of members of Jesus own flock including women has shown the unbeliever that there is another rout to "the father" other than the single and only path that Jesus claims there is, at John14:6
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So can the theist say if or not that Jesus made these contradictory statements, #1 or were they words put into his mouth by the gospel writer that had forgot what he had wrote?
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@Dr.Franklin
Why isn’t Jesus willing to show the disbelievers today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be treated any different from Thomas –a disciple - and Paul a disbelieving persecutor and murderer of early Christians?if you put in no effort to know Jesus, why should he reach out to you?
I have been researching the bible for decades now Doc, The New Testament in particular. I found Jesus . I know what he was. I know his intention, I know his claim and I know who he ONLY came to reunite and rule over. He failed miserably.
Now try answering the questions Doc, or simply go away.
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Another big fail by the angel of god, Jesus and the bible.
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Y’all ignore that Jesus told Thomas that he was blessed for seeing and believing, but that the greater blessing is had by faith when not seeing. .
Well I had guessed that it was inevitable that the matter of faith would be mentioned. But how could the point of faith have been" ignored " when the intended meaning to John20:29 is, as I clearly point out above, about faith. Paragraph 5 #1.
Yet Jesus mentions nothing to Thomas about his lack of faith on such a miraculous and momentous occasion! . Not a single word. Yet Jesus is quick to snap on other occasions when it come to the lack of faith among his apostles. For instance, on at least three occasions Jesus reprimands his apostles concerning their lack of faith.
It appears that "Y`all ignore" :
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" about tomorrow :
Matthew 6:30: “Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?”
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they may lose their lives in a storm:
Matthew 8:26: “And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they hadn't any bread:
”Matthew 16:8: “Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?
Luke repeats Matthew 6:30 where the apostles are " "worrying" about tomorrow:
”Luke 12:28: “If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?”
All the above seem reasonable things for a mere mortal to be concerned about yet they are reprimanded by Jesus for their lack of faith. Thomas on the other hand -who should know better - because he seen a "dead" man being raised to life with his own eyes - receives no such reprimand. Nothing. Jesus, in this instance it appears, simply tells Thomas to stop being silly and invites him to put his fingers in his wounds. No, there isn't any "O ye of little faith" directed at Thomas, instead, to have a lack of faith on this occasion seems to be a cause for celebration!
"Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen"
This kind of faith>> Jesus cried: " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"?
why would God appear to you with your indifference?
Only "indifference"? Why would god himself appear to someone that had made it his life's work to hunt down and murder Christians?
Paul Tells of His Past Life
Acts 22: 4 “I worked hard and killed men and women who believed as I believe today. I put them in chains and sent them to prison.
The Church Persecuted and Scattered Acts 8:1-3
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
I can only assume being "indifferent" towards Christians and Jesus is a much more serious offence to god than hunting down and killing and imprisoning members of his flock.
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Example:Thomas, a disciple of Christ.
Thomas had witnessed with his own eyes “miracles” performed by Jesus such as raising - back to life, the dead 4 days old rotting corpse of Lazarus the friend that “Jesus loved” and wept over. (No mention of Jesus ever shedding a single tear over “the greatest prophet" his cousin John the Baptist).
Jesus, Thomas’ rabbi , is crucified, dead and entombed. And then,depending on which version we choose to believe, Jesus first appears either to, Mary, or some Marys’ or Peter or Cleopas etc? But suddenly, Thomas,on hearing about the once “dead” corpse of Christ walking around and being alive again, refused to believe Jesus is indeed alive after the crucifixion and after laying for three days in a private tomb belonging to a rich friend in private walled garden..(Joseph of Arimathea obviously won’t be entering into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:24).
Thomas did not believe it was truly him despite being told, twice!, prior to the incident by Jesus son of god, that he would rise again in three days.!? And despite his own witnessing of the miracle of miracles the“raising of Lazarus”?. Why follow a man right up until his death, hanging on every word of all his preaching that he will rise from the dead, then suddenly, and without explanation, refuse to believe what he was being told by Mary, or the Mary’s or Peter or Cleopas or anyone? There is no indication given before this time that Thomas had any reason to disbelieve or “doubt” his master god/Jesus.
Oddly, when Mary – the first to see him- tried to touch Jesus on seeing him in the private garden owned by his rich friend, he refused her,but when Thomas required physical proof Jesus invited Thomas to touch him and feel the wounds in his body, as to offer physical proof.
As is usual with these ambiguous half stories we are never told what happened there-after and we are simply left with Jesus saying: , “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”.John20:29.What does that actually mean? Can we only take that to mean believed through faith alone and without a single piece of hard physical evidence?
The point is, why doesn’t god extend and afford the same privilege of proof to humans alive today?
Those today that doubt gods/Jesus' existence are no different than Thomas,requiring physical proof and he was a disciple of Jesus himself. If Thomas had been born just a year on from the crucifixion, or even living today, would he be refused a place in the heavenly paradise because he would not believe for the lack of physical proof?
Is it too much to ask and question? I am often accused by Christians of“mocking and humiliating” them (all untrue ), but at least I am not killing them. Yet Paul made it his mission to seek out and destroy Christians although he was born after the death and accession of Christ. Then one day, without even asking never mind believing, in a flash he got a visit from god himself !!!!!? Again, how this happened also varies depending on who’s “gospel truth” one chooses to believe, but it was an appearance by the lord god himself, all the same... according to the bible.
Why isn’t Jesus willing to show the disbelievers today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be treated any different from Thomas –a disciple - and Paul a disbelieving persecutor and murderer of early Christians?
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And mounting.
“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6
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