Total posts: 2,481
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@secularmerlin
Telling me what questions to ask isn’t courteous at all.
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@secularmerlin
preserving human life is the goal
Why? (If nihilism is true)
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@secularmerlin
we should try to preserve human life.
That claim still requires proof (reward/punishment).
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@secularmerlin
For questions sake let’s use the word possible.
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@secularmerlin
See there is a difference between valid and possible.
What’s the difference?
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@zedvictor4
You can’t prove a negative (one of the many rules of logic) and nihilism is a negative.
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@secularmerlin
While I consider this a false dichotomy
My argument is that it’s not, unless you have another valid option.
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@secularmerlin
First however if you wish to continue having this conversation please complete the following syllogisms
Why what’s the point?
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@secularmerlin
You have created a definitional tautology instead.
How so?
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@secularmerlin
IF there is meaning THEN ???IF there is no meaning THEN ???
Reward and punishment.
No reward and no punishment.
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@secularmerlin
I've explained my axiom exhaustively
Uncertainty is a hallmark of the human experience. I am comfortable if not entirely satisfied with "I don't know" as being the most honest answer to mote questions than not.I understand that this can be difficult to accept.
Doesn’t sound like much of an explanation to me or to use your words an “actionable belief”(note, I know this isn’t the actual axiom but the axiom is what lead this quote).
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@secularmerlin
It is unfalsifiable within the context of this conversation.
If that’s how you feel then why are you so hell bent on asking questions about it?
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@secularmerlin
Just because I can’t demonstrate it doesn’t mean it’s not demonstrable.
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@secularmerlin
What’s the purpose of a question if the person asking tells you how you should answer it? Yet you want to accuse me of false dichotomy fallacy smh.
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@zedvictor4
Objective morality and nihilism are both suppositions....As such they can neither be correct nor incorrect.
Wanna support that assertion?
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@secularmerlin
Correction, for the sake of discussion I’m not claiming either (no matter how hard you try to force me into that corner) just acknowledging that only one is true.
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@secularmerlin
I’m arguing that either objective morality or nihilism is correct question is which one is it?
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@secularmerlin
conceded that there is in fact no objective morality.
You gotta a quote from me?
For the purposes of this conversation you have in effect argued that nihilism is true.
Correction I argued IF nihilism is true, keyword IF. My willingness to argue for the other side is what makes me a little more open minded than you.
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@secularmerlin
I told you that I do not self identify as a nihilist. At the beginning of the conversation.
Yeah well you also said this
you and I are both nihilists
And it isn’t the first time you’ve uttered something along those lines, nonetheless I never asserted yourself as a nihilist (don’t know why you brought both points up).
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@secularmerlin
I don’t, but if you wanna call yourself that 🤷🏾♂️ .
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@secularmerlin
If nihilism is logically necessary (and your argument so far supports that) then you and I are both nihilists.
No, I’m gonna have to stop you right there, you can speak for yourself but don’t speak for me, I am NOT and I repeat NOT a nihilist, and that’s regardless of whether or not nihilism is true. But if it turns out I’m wrong and it is true than I guess you were right all along and I’m just too OBTUSE to understand and/or accept it.
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@secularmerlin
And hey is the statement "morality is as cool as the Fonze" an opinion or not? Am I allowed to think that morality is as cool as the Fonze or not?
I don’t know, but even if I agreed regarding this example you haven’t said anything like this before when discussing morality, instead you said things about disagreeing with it and that’s not opinionated that’s just objectively wrong.
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@secularmerlin
Yrs they do or the statement there is no god requires no burden of proof
So you believe that statement requires burden of proof? Okay I’ll bite prove it.
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@secularmerlin
If you cannot prove it then you cannot meet your burden of proof that it is impossible.
Negative claims don’t have the burden of proof.
Why can't you (not me you) have opinions about morality?
Because it’s not an opinionated subject, next question.
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@secularmerlin
Prove it.
You can’t prove a negative, one of the many rules of logic but maybe you’re too OBTUSE to understand 😛 .
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@secularmerlin
I can have an opinion about a tree. The opinion is not a tree.
But in this case you CAN’T have an opinion on morality, that’s the difference.
How’s that for obtuse? You wanna get personal with me? I can go there if you want.
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@secularmerlin
I honestly can’t tell the difference so I’m gonna stick to my original response in #322
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@secularmerlin
thinking you may have room for improvement is an opinion rather than a human truism.
You’ve uttered yourself that we’re all ignorant to some degree, how is ignorance synonymous to perfection?
so whether objective reality exists or not we have opinions about morality.
Reality? Since when was the existence of reality in question? And you can keep saying morality is opinionated all you want, it doesn’t make it true unless you can prove it.
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@secularmerlin
I’d like to think so but I’m not perfect.
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@secularmerlin
There is no doubt that I have opinions regarding what is moral and so do you.
Prove it.
I'm getting a little tired of this merry go round.I don't have to prove that people have moral opinions
Then stop making claims you can’t support, people don’t have moral opinions if you’re gonna claim they do then yes you have to prove it otherwise you leave me no choice but to dismiss the argument.
It doesn't matter what is or is not the case for a nihilist since none of us identifies as a nihilist.
On the contrary it doesn’t matter what YOU identify as because as far as I’m concerned if I’m wrong in regards to reward and punishment then nihilism by default is correct.
And if so how does one go about thinking something is morally correct without being of the subjective opinion, right or wrong, they something is morally correct?
I’m willing to admit I probably can’t prove objective morality to you, that’s why I’m not entertaining this topic with you because YOU just like me can’t prove our side in terms of morals therefore for the sake of discussion it’s put to the wayside and you’re right that was for 3RU7AL.
Great! Excellent! Glad we agree. So I don't need any objective morality to self actualize or to determine what is morally correct
Don’t try to be slick, moral correctness and what YOU like is not the same thing.
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@secularmerlin
I am talking about my moral intuition.
You mean your “subjective” moral intuition. That’s in doubt so yes you have to prove it.
You would need to prove that some morality beyond human moral opinion exists.
Where was that in my argument, do I have to quote it again for you?
I don't need objective morals to determine what kind of world I would like to live in
When did I say you did? Please quote me.
doesn't apply here even if you are correct.
That doesn’t make sense how can I be correct if it doesn’t apply?
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@3RU7AL
But weren't you suggesting that "objective meaning" only exists (IFF) divine punishment and divine reward exists?
Yes but that doesn’t mean it’s subjective if the latter two don’t exist.
Without a perfectly unambiguous set of moral rules to follow, we must make our best subjective guess at what is morally correct (de facto subjective morality).
Not if your a nihilist.
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@3RU7AL
How can "objective meaning" be conditional?
It’s not if it’s true.
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@secularmerlin
personal moral intuition
You’ve yet to prove subjective morality.
I don't have to agree with the moral correctness of an action tocapitulate
How do you capitulate to a God you don’t agree with?
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@3RU7AL
That’s what I’m asking you, you’re the one asking the nonspecific question.
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@secularmerlin
Punishment is immaterial
That’s easy to say when your not being punished.
The approval of some god(s) is immaterial especially if they are completely undetectable unknowable and of unknown moral quality.
That’s not applicable to the discussion because the narrative was if that weren’t the case.
the fittest social animals are those that work and cooperate with others the best.
Or the one that’s the last man standing, nonetheless your argument isn’t applicable to your hypothetical scenario because if the goal was to kill as many people to receive your reward then most likely consensus would jump on it, I mean that’s not the message that’s currently being pushed yet we still have killers among us.
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@secularmerlin
u neither want nor need such validation.
As opposed to punishment?
It would not make me feel validated the way that being a free moral agent does
And you know this how?
and what's more would not stop me from being a free moral agent.
...Well duh? Validation should never stop anybody if anything it’s a reason to keep on going.
Lastly it’s easy to say the person you’ll be under circumstances that you already know but most likely if the hypothetical scenario were true it would be very difficult to maintain your code of conduct because people tend to be products of their environment and if your environment is wilding out then most likely sooner or later you will too because it’s survival of the fittest, kill or be killed and it’s a lot more difficult to care for people that want your head as opposed to people who reciprocate your feelings for them.
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