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@secularmerlin
Now that we got that scenario out the way let me say that I’m not advocating that you stop caring (by all means care away) but why is it so hard for you to believe there’s validation for it?
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@secularmerlin
Well according to your hypothetical scenario you would be the monster and that’s a fact.
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@secularmerlin
So what if I said yes I’d agree with everything then what?
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@secularmerlin
Unless you have any support for these hypothetical questions, I have every right not to take them seriously, I don’t know.
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@3RU7AL
meaningfulness is objective.
I said this ONLY IF we’re rewarded or punished in some capacity, if we’re not then there is no meaning. But if you still want the demonstration if the former were true here it is.
It MEANS if you live this way you’ll be punished and if you live another you’ll be rewarded therefore you should live by the latter.
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@3RU7AL
Normally, both participants are expected to present arguments that support their claims.
What claim did make that I didn’t support?
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@secularmerlin
only I can determine what I personally find meaningful.
Then you’re gonna have to prove that meaning is personal, otherwise you leave me no choice but to reject your argument.
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@3RU7AL
personally find meaningful
Meaning isn’t personal.
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@secularmerlin
forming sound and reasonable arguments that is sufficient to meet your challenge.
So what did you mean by this?
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@secularmerlin
forming sound and reasonable arguments that is sufficient to meet your challenge.
Are you saying I did this? Why thank you.
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@3RU7AL
I don’t know but it probably depends on the action.
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@3RU7AL
Are you suggesting that even if I have no idea if a specific action will be rewarded or punished, it is still meaningful?
Meaning isn’t predicated on one’s ignorance.
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@zedvictor4
I think therefore I am refers to instinctive knowledge.
So what did you mean when you mentioned this in regards to God?
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Yay... false equivalences.
If you’re not gonna demonstrate your assertion then your argument is null and void.
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@secularmerlin
ONLY you can decide what is meaningful to you and ONLY I can decide what is meaningful to me.
Prove it.
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@3RU7AL
Please tell me what is meaningful.
You quoted the answer already.
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@secularmerlin
I could just as easily ask how you justify believing in meaning
No you can’t because I didn’t argue in favor of it I just argued what it requires.
Not making the claim that your preferred god exists EXPLICITLY does not absolve you of the burden of proof IMPLICIT in demanding I justify not believing in one.
EXPLICITLY > IMPLICITLY
The baseline reason not to just give up.
Which is?
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@secularmerlin
I don't find punishment or reward meaningfull at all.
It’s not up to you to decide what is and isn’t meaningful.
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@3RU7AL
Shouldn't I sacrifice my own eternal happiness to bring eternal happiness to as many people as I possibly can?
What difference does it make? Your mind seems pretty made up to me.
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@zedvictor4
Axiom....I think therefore I am.
How else am I supposed to take this?
e.g.- I think I’m a flying eagle therefore I am a flying eagle.
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@secularmerlin
I still care about what I care about
Then what’s the point of this discussion if in the end you’re just gonna chalk it up to this, regardless of your inability to prove meaning without reward and/or punishment? I mean it would’ve saved us a whole lot of time if you started with this as your premise because your loyalty to your stubbornness would’ve been more apparent. If you want to do you then I probably can’t stop you but the questions as to why you do them still remains, it’s up to you if you’re gonna answer the call, I hope you do at some point have a nice day ✌🏾.
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@secularmerlin
What is it you think I'm signing off on exactly?
Nihilism being okay you’ve simply said as much.
Your definition of morality is unorthodox
Before you said my definition of MEANING was unorthodox, morality wasn’t apart of my argument.
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@secularmerlin
You asked if I was ok with there being no meaning in the unorthodox way you describe it and this was part of my answer.
I asked AFTER you said you were okay, I just wanted to clarify what you were signing off to. What makes my description unorthodox? And I’ve yet to get an answer.
I'm not interested in arguing the semantics. Humans hold each other accountable for their actions including self accountability in many cases even if the universe doesn't right? Like we can observe them doing it. Putting each other in jail and other penalties.
It’s misleading to just say that without mentioning the other side we also wrongfully convict when we put in jail and other penalties and we also wrongfully don’t convict and other penalties under our system. Lastly accountability is meaningless in a meaningless life.
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@secularmerlin
I'm ok with human systems of accountability.
To some degree you can argue that accountability isn’t a system rather just a fact of life.
Also it doesn't matter if I'm ok with it or not.
Then why mention it?
I have to live in this universe whether meaning and morality as you define them exist or not right?
Not if you off yourself and get punished for it in the afterlife.
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@secularmerlin
I am totally ok with that
So the view that morality of any kind doesn’t exist your okay with? Are you sure about that?
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@secularmerlin
ignorance is a quality we share
Maybe but in the context of this discussion I’m not ignorant, there are some things in life you can know with absolute certainty, like in order to have meaning reward and/or punishment is required, if you can prove there’s meaning without those two things then I’ll fold my hand, otherwise my argument still stands.
a tiny fraction of the stuff ergo we are mostly woefully ignorant.
Tiny is subjective considering size is limitless, also that statement requires you to know how much “stuff” there is which I doubt.
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@secularmerlin
I am fulfilled and have direction anyway.
I never doubted your fulfillment, and there’s many directions, ignorance is one of them, have a good night ✌🏾.
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@secularmerlin
I say so what? I still do things and care about stuff so what difference does it make to me if there is meaning or not according to the definitions you insist on.
Then why do YOU INSIST on asking me what I BELIEVE? Is it because YOU expected a SPECIFIC answer?
I personally find things meaningful and that is absolutely a matter of opinion.
It’s fundamentally impossible to find meaning in something that’s inherently meaningless and that’s a fact.
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@secularmerlin
They are if you cannot be certain what form they will take or how one goes about following the rules to receive each.
You don’t need to know the “form” to know your being rewarded or punished, and how one goes about following the rules to receive each isn’t my argument, it’s just what YOU’RE concerned with.
I just don't see what specifically about a mindless universe equals nihilism.
Google is free if you don’t know what nihilism is.
Are you asking how I avoid the problem of soft nihilism?
Nihilism is nihilism there is no distinction in this case.
I just make up some shit and find meaning in that.
Isn’t that the definition of ignorance?
We seem to need meaning even if it is only something we are pretending to have.
Then why does it seem that way?
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@secularmerlin
believe in something so nebulous
Reward and punishment isn’t nebulous.
when you seem to imply that my life cannot have meaning (by implication when you claim that the only two possible positions are theism or nihilism) without being able to demonstrate any more meaning in yours
Whatever it “seemed” to you is incorrect I never said nor implied my life is more meaningful than yours, in case you’ve read me wrong there’s meaning in punishment as well.
So far the best argument I've really heard from you is that a universe without any god(s) would in your opinion be meaningless and confusing and upsetting.
If you’re gonna attempt to quote me than do it right, I’ve lost count the amount of times you’ve misquoted my argument, I’ve said something along those lines but I never uttered it as an opinion, I have no use for opinions that I can’t control.
the universe is under no special obligation to provide you with meaning or answers or comfort.
Then why aren’t you a nihilist?
You definitely get them in an observable measurable way from people
Prove it.
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@secularmerlin
How do you know there is meaning?
I didn’t argue there was, I just argued what it requires.
Still if you cannot prove that god agrees with your moral intuition (don't steal/don't murder/don't lie etc) and instead values only marital prowess
Why does the former require proof and the latter doesn’t? 🤔
I am not trying to solve any mystery by appeals to a larger mystery.
What mystery am I trying to solve?
you are still forced to use you own personal moral intuition to discern right from wrong.
Prove it.
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@secularmerlin
Firstly... that's it? Sorry because there will be punishment? Not sorry for stealing? Or threatening and possibly hurting people but just sorry that there will be retribution?
Sure you can add that in if you want.
Secondly... what punishment? From whom? If we as human beings do not hold this hypothetical bank robber responsible what leads you to believe he will be held accountable at all?
Because if not sorry it makes the action have meaning if he is.
Can you prove that Odin doesn't exist and that you must be more violent in order to be rewarded?
No because one of the many rules of logic is you can’t prove a negative.
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@secularmerlin
Please justify splitting hairs.
Their is no justification, good thing that’s not the case here.
Sorry for what?
Engaging in activity that can lead to punishment.
Seeking rewards?
It’s not rewarding if it can lead to punishment.
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@secularmerlin
It’s not because I believe they’ll be punished someway somehow if they’re not sorry.
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@secularmerlin
Because it details a consequence not a standard.
The standard is you should live in a way that avoids punishment and garners reward.
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@secularmerlin
It MEANS if you live this way you’ll be punished and if you live another you’ll be rewarded therefore you should live by the latter.
Why isn’t this “adequate”?
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@secularmerlin
You haven't explained how punishment or reward equals meaning. Please explain.
Yes I have, you’re starting a circle by asking me the same question twice.
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@secularmerlin
Great. A+ idea. Now how do you determine what is ethical?
I don’t always know.
someone(thing) judging you is not what actually makes an action ethical.
We clearly have different views on ethics so I suggest you demonstrate yours.
I have a personally preferred standard.
Personal preference isn’t demonstrable.
That when I ask about morality your answers usually contain something to the effect of don't kill, don't steal, don't lie.
That was before I said
“in order for our lives to have meaning we need to be punished or rewarded in some capacity otherwise it’s fair to question why do we care if the universe is so uncaring, after all aren’t we at our core extensions of the universe?”
This is my CURRENT argument not morality.
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@secularmerlin
Is your highest ethical priority your own personal wellbeing?
My highest ethical priority is simply being ethical.
I am not mocking you.
Then why’d you mention a cosmic hall monitor?
whether or not someone is looking does not have any effect on the ethical content of your actions.
Please take your own advice here, if you’re not going to demonstrate your definition of ethics then you can’t make an argument for it.
On a separate note I am starting to think you are conflating moral pronouncements for a moral standard.
What makes you think that?
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@secularmerlin
I do not consider something right or wrong solely based on how it would benefit me.
We clearly have different views on the words right and wrong so if you’re gonna use your idea of it in your argument then I request that you prove it.
I also do not consider something more or less correct dependent upon whether or not some cosmic hall monitor is paying attention.
Don’t mock me.
There seems to be no sufficient evidence to suggest you will experience anything post mortum whatsoever.
Then
“it’s fair to question why do we care if the universe is so uncaring, after all aren’t we at our core extensions of the universe?”
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@3RU7AL
Does this suggest you don't know if your life has any meaning?
No, it MEANS I don’t know if I will experience punishment or reward.
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@3RU7AL
What leads you to believe you will experience eternal happiness?
I don’t know what I’ll experience.
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@secularmerlin
What do punishment and reward even have to do with meaning?
It MEANS if you live this way you’ll be punished and if you live another you’ll be rewarded therefore you should live by the latter.
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@secularmerlin
“The answer is in the question it’s pretty self explanatory.”
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@secularmerlin
“in order for our lives to have meaning we need to be punished or rewarded in some capacity otherwise it’s fair to question why do we care if the universe is so uncaring, after all aren’t we at our core extensions of the universe?”
This is my argument.
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@secularmerlin
Unless you have stopped believing in one it is still pertinent to the conversation.
Only if I’m arguing in favor of Him which I’m not.
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