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@3RU7AL
What leads you to believe you will enjoy eternal happiness?
The answer is in the question it’s pretty self explanatory.
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@3RU7AL
I’m fine with anything as long as heroin is left out.
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@secularmerlin
what possible reason is there to think that god(s) care about us or anything?
I said nothing of God in my last post.
And absent any concrete reason to think that any god(s) care about anything how does this help you avoid the trap of nihilism that you assume I must be falling victim to?
When did I say you fell victim to nihilism?
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@zedvictor4
Any implication was yours to make.
The only one making implications is you when you asserted that the mind supersedes reality.
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) GOOD = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) GOOD = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEN) HEROIN = GOOD
Heroin may equal happiness but happiness doesn’t equal heroin just like apples equals fruits but fruits doesn’t equal apples.
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@secularmerlin
how a being that defies description makes the universe less confusing rather than more.
Then I won’t argue in favor of a being, you asked me what I believe and I told you, whether or not I can prove it is a separate narrative.
“in order for our lives to have meaning we need to be punished or rewarded in some capacity otherwise it’s fair to question why do we care if the universe is so uncaring, after all aren’t we at our core extensions of the universe?”
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@secularmerlin
How can you say that if I can’t explain the concept?
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@secularmerlin
Now describe god as you believe in the concept.
What if I can’t, then what?
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@secularmerlin
I am under no more obligation to explain myself or justify my beliefs than you are
Yes you are because unlike you I’m willing to admit I can’t prove my belief.
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@secularmerlin
First you need to demonstrate a god
Excuse me but I thought the question is what do you believe not can you demonstrate your belief because if that’s the case I’ll gladly say I can’t and we can move on from me being the focus and we can shift it back to you.
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@secularmerlin
I believe that if theism is false nihilism is true and since nihilism is depressing and confusing to me that’s why I’m not a nihilist.
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@secularmerlin
I have repeatedly agreed to use your definitions over my own in the interest of clarity
Are you saying your definitions are unclear?
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@secularmerlin
We both have opinions about what is right and wrong
That’s not true an opinion cannot be right or wrong, my opinion that singer A sounds better than singer B is neither right or wrong.
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@secularmerlin
Sorry when did I say the world was subjective? You keep putting words in my mouth and I don't appreciate it.
Pardon me but when you said right did you mean objectively right or subjectively right?
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@secularmerlin
We both do what we THINK of as right. You demand to know why and I say I don't really know. That is an intellectually honest answer.
Except we both view that word differently you view it as subjective which requires just as much proof as my view that it’s objective.
I simply recognize that what is meaningful to me may not be meaningful to you.
What is meaningful to you means nothing if you can’t prove it’s meaning external from you.
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) BOOK = GOOD (AND) HEAVEN = GOOD (AND) BOOK = HEAVEN (AND) HEAVEN = HAPPINESS (AND) HEROIN = HAPPINESS (THEREFORE) HEAVEN = HEROIN
I was referring to this.
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@secularmerlin
I don't need the fear of punishment or the hope of reward to do what I think is right and you have as much as said that you don't either.
Now It’s your turn to take your own advice and provide a demonstration because you just used subjective right in your argument even though it doesn’t exist, also you misunderstood my Bible thumping Christian argument, take math for example you don’t need to be a mathematician to know 1+1=2 that doesn’t mean math isn’t logical.
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@secularmerlin
Why not?
Because another word is prevalent it’s called sympathy.
I'm sorry you don't get to equate not knowing where empathy came from with not having a reason to care about people.
“Why not?”
Indeed if you follow any line of questioning far enough you get to either I don't know
But how far did it get here? I asked why you sympathize and it stopped the conversation dead right there, that’s pretty suspect from a logical standpoint if you don’t know the answer to a question like that.
Please define impure as you are using it here.
Incorrect.
Not half as much as you are if you think you can know for a fact a being exists that you cannot demonstrate.
Maybe I can’t demonstrate but at the very least I can give you a compelling argument and it’s in order for our lives to have meaning we need to be punished or rewarded in some capacity otherwise it’s fair to question why do we care if the universe is so uncaring, after all aren’t we at our core extensions of the universe?
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@zedvictor4
Me and nothing else.
That kinda does against your first premise originally you implied you can be anything you mind desires now you’re saying “nothing else”.
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@zedvictor4
It would be point enough for me.
But you’re not asking the question I am.
Primarily because that is how we are pre-programmed, and also how such messages are usually enforced when we are children.
But you don’t have to believe in those messages, you chose that.
A vivid imagination
Which definition are you referring to that matches that context?
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@secularmerlin
Why would one need to prove one's stated purpose?
“because I view it as God’s plan for us, so if you take Him out the equation (theoretically speaking) it’s reasonable to believe the activities you engage in serves no purpose”
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@zedvictor4
Why bother to try and prove anything to someone that does not value you....Just ignore them.
That’s not the point.
Such respect and devotion, and all associated functions and processes far exceeds the glib use of the label "love".
Fine, if our purpose is to simply exist then why do you have respect and devotion for others?
The word vivid has multiple definitions....So read you trusted dictionary.
Yes, but it’s only ONE context that’s being discussed.
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@zedvictor4
As I said people will find purpose in all sorts of activities.
We clearly have different views on the word purpose because I view it as God’s plan for us, so if you take Him out the equation (theoretically speaking) it’s reasonable to believe the activities you engage in serves no purpose, it might bring you happiness but then you’ll have to prove our purpose is to be happy.
But I'm sure that someone must value you, and hopefully some one values me too
Yeah sure but how do you prove to someone that doesn’t that should be the case.
Love is a label that we apply whimsically in response to all sorts of stuff
But that wasn’t the narrative is it? I gave a specific example of love when I mentioned your wife, I sure hope that’s not on a whim.
Focussing vividly on an unknowable religious ethos
Vividness isn’t unknowable.
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@zedvictor4
Is unnecessarily corrupting the purity of Secular's basic axiom.
The lack of theism is exactly what makes the axiom impure.
Axiom....I think therefore I am.
You’re overestimating the power of the human mind.
I am, therefore I create a GOD.
I am what?
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@secularmerlin
The ability to put yourself in another person's shoes metaphorically speaking.
There’s no metaphors in terms of empathy.
In any case it doesn't matter why I have this capacity. It still qualifies as the reason for some of my behaviors.
Yes it does, the reason itself can’t be “because I sympathize” if the question is why do you sympathize?
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@secularmerlin
If you are asking where this sense of empathy comes from we are back to I don't know
My point exactly (although I think you meant sympathy) you not knowing why you sympathize is an example of what I was referring to.
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@secularmerlin
reason you say everything you say, think everything you think, feel everything that you feel, do everything that you do
You never said you don’t know to this?
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@secularmerlin
What about what I've written has lead you to believe that I am impulsive or illogical?
Because you don’t know why you act as you do you’ve told me multiple times that you don’t know (I responded to more in my last post BTW).
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@secularmerlin
That doesn't mean that i am thoughtless.
Maybe I could’ve used a better word but your actions lack logic if you don’t know why your acting because regardless of validity I act as I do because I believe those actions serve a greater purpose (an afterlife).
isn't really in keeping with the actual teachings of most religions I'm aware of
I never claimed to be representative of any particular religion, I just have religious beliefs in a basic sense, I know I’m not perfect but I believe I’m right about that the very least.
In other words subjective
That’s simply not true, I gave an example of this in the other forum “I was subjected to this weather. That sentence has nothing to do with dependent on the mind for existence”.
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@secularmerlin
My examples leave no room for the supernatural. I think you have misunderstood somehow.
I was referring to your rape and murder examples, I view them as simple not complicated.
The conclusion that I don't think before I act? What exactly even gave you that impression?
Because when I asked you why you say everything you say, think everything you think, feel everything that you feel, do everything that you do you had no answer leaving me with the conclusion I came with.
You don't have to be a Christian at all to come to the conclusion that it might make for a nice world if we were all nice to each other.
But “nice” just like the other standards you mentioned are vague leaving room to be interpreted in any kind of way which is somewhat problematic unless there’s a God that defines that standard.
If it is not wrong to kill someone under the right circumstances then it is subjective by definition.
How so?
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@secularmerlin
Is your argument here that the only thing that makes you a good person is belief in some extra cosmic force waiting to spank you after you die?
No, what makes you a good person isn’t as clear cut to me as it is for other people, I find morality as a whole very complicated, my faith is based on things I find simple like the examples you used.
Anything that proposes that you know my mind or the content of my character better than I do myself.
I can only draw from information you’ve already gave me, if you want to dispute if it’s reasonable to come to that conclusion off that sample of information we can.
Should and shouldn't do what?
Generally speaking we should love and help others, and we shouldn’t lie, steal, or kill, this is all pretty basic stuff that I’m sure most people can agree on, it’s basic stuff like this is enough reason for me to believe I don’t have to be some Bible thumping Christian to understand these things are objectively wrong.
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@secularmerlin
What does knowing if there is anything after life have to do with thinking before you act in this life?
Your outlook on life will be completely different if you knew you would be punished or rewarded for certain choices.
I will thank you not to put words in my mouth
Pardon me but what did I say that was wrong?
You have yet however to explain exactly what you believe.
I believe we should and shouldn’t do certain things, and I can’t think of anything other than an afterlife that can validate that belief.
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@secularmerlin
This is both incorrect and insulting.
Sorry but what’s the truth? Because according to you don’t know.
you have no intention of discussing your position honestly
My position isn’t unique I’m a believer, that’s all I got.
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@secularmerlin
I know I don't have the answers.
You not knowing the answers to those questions means you don’t think before you act which is the epitome of ignorance (no offense) it is my belief that if you do some soul searching within yourself and find the answers to those questions your whole perspective will change, a massive paradigm shift.
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@secularmerlin
Your reason was unconvincing.
Could it be because you don’t know the answers to those questions?
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@secularmerlin
I'm claiming that no god is evident and that there is no reason to suspect that there is one until there is reason to suspect there is one.
I literally just gave you a reason did you just write that off?
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@secularmerlin
What reason is there to think that anything happens after you die?
The same reason you say everything you say, think everything you think, feel everything that you feel, do everything that you do. If a reason is all you’re looking for than that’s a start.
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@secularmerlin
I have no reason whatsoever to take any hypothesis seriously that proposes something that cannot be demonstrated.
How do you know it can’t be demonstrated? That requires you to know what happens when you die, how do you know?
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@secularmerlin
I do not believe in any god(s).
It’s one thing to say you don’t believe it’s another to say it doesn’t exist are you merely saying the former?
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Kinda does though
I was subjected to this weather. That sentence has nothing to do with dependent on the mind for existence (so much for “I wouldn't bother”).
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@secularmerlin
I understand that this can be difficult to accept.
It’s not but at the very least it makes more sense to consider yourself an agnostic not an atheist.
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@secularmerlin
That’s for you not me, I’m not trying to be hard on you but it seems to me that you’re attempting to explain your mentality but when I ask questions about it you have no answer, seems to me that you need to do more soul searching within yourself because you seem uncertain about a lot of things.
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@Double_R
*subject to*
Doesn’t mean subjective.
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@secularmerlin
I am not trying to win you over to this point of view, in fact I am perfectly willing to accept this reality at face value.
... Then what’s the point of this forum?
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@secularmerlin
Sight, smell, taste, touch and sound at least.
It’s kind of hard not to engage in those things and stay alive, are you sure that’s mainly what you meant?
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@secularmerlin
You can’t be so vague with me, what kind of experiences?
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@secularmerlin
And I’m saying if you don’t believe there’s proof validating your emotions then you shouldn’t have them.
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