Tradesecret

“Everyday people want things and are told to stop following those feelings. For example in court a man loves his wife so much he can’t stop following her around or texting her. The court says do it again and you will breach a restraining order. The man keeps doing this until he gets out into prison several times. Or he sees her with someone else. I am not saying it is easy to stop being attracted to someone but the fact is people do stop loving others for all sorts of reasons”

 

I assume that in this example depicts the homosexual as the criminal facing charges, and the “wife” as the other individual. The only difference with this and homosexuality is that, unlike how in this situation the wife is escaping  the husband, both parties want to be together, with the only thing keeping them apart being the court. In a loving homosexual relationship, both parties are satisfied, it isn’t as if one of them is the “wife” attempting to escape. To alter your example slightly, how would you consider a situation in which a man and his wife were desperate to be together, but as the court rules their relationship as “unnatural” they are forced apart. And not only this, unlike any ordinary law, if they break this one, they spend eternity burning in flames with satan. 

“Why would I want to stop loving my parents?”

Exactly, asking you to stop loving your parents would be absurd. Just like how asking a homosexual to stop loving their own sex is absurd. To them, it would be like me telling you to stop loving your parents. Their relationship, at least to them, feels as natural as your love for your parents. It isn’t as if they are feeling some sort of artificial love, or else why would they go to such an extent to protest for their rights? If homosexuals really could “change their minds”, do you not think they would? Gays get bashed up for their sexuality, any rational person who could change their mind would do so immediately. Clearly this is something coded into their brain. As such, why would God want to punish something which people cannot change, even if they so desire?

“Yet just because they don’t want to think they are abnormal does not mean they are normal. They might be but thinking it does not make it so”

We share common ground here. You’ll be surprised to find that I actually lean conservative. Though we have disagreements with the issue of homosexuailty, I can see where you are coming from, as your views are somewhat similar to my views on transgendered people. I believe that trans people should not be referred to as their chosen gender, as this violates my right to freedom of speech and jeopardizes common biology. Even though something is programmed into your brain, it should not be normalised, as you rightfully state. After all, encoded in the gene’s of men is violence which, even though “normal” should not be encouraged. However, this issue does not extend to homosexuality. Unlike the violent male who, through their “normal” behaviour will physically assault people, or the transgender person who through their “normal” behaviour force me to through out my year 2 biology text book, I can see nothing that the homosexual is doing to me which causes harm. They do not force me to change my language and they do not abuse people. They are just two loving people who, to put frankly, don’t need me busy bodying into what they are doing.

“I might find myself attracted to Mariah Carey. You might say ok you can’t help it. So does that mean I should accept that unless I can make her like me then my life is empty and meaningless? Or do I have a choice? Does the other person have to like me back? The fact is we choose who we are attracted to and we choose how we are going to deal with that attraction”

 
The reason your attraction to Maraih should be contained is because she doesn't like you back. Though you may be open to a relationship, she is not. Therefore, in order to prevent violating her rights, you should maintain distance. However, this is not the case with homosexuals. Both parties in a homosexual relationhip are consenting and want to be together. Using your example, imagine if you and Mariah were deeply in love, when some third party of whom you have never met asserts that you need to be separated. This would be deeply troubling.

 
“God’s love is reflected in his utmost value of marriage and family.  You have not commented on that. Because god values this so highly - it is why the sanction for breaching it is so heavy”

 
But surely God can see that these people are desperately in love and that despite their best efforts, they cannot change who they are. Surely if God is omnipotent, he can put some sort of awakening sign in the paths of the homosexuals which will make them realise that they are “sinning”. Surely God could teach them why they are “wrong”, instead of forcing them into a pit of fire.

God does not do things simply because people are desperate.  We do not have God on a string to make him do what we want him to do. He is no genie in a bottle at our beck and command. Your understanding of omnipotence is not the same as mine.  Yet, God has put the bible out to let people know it is wrong. He has put lots of Christians and others in the world to know it is sinful.  Why don’t gay people listen? Is it because God has not told them? No. It is because they don’t like being told what is right and wrong.  But don’t misunderstand what I am saying here – this applies to all of humanity – in almost every situation.  No one likes being told they are wrong. Human nature says – God is wrong. Or God does not exist.  
“Or other offences that might cause a breach in that covenant such as murder or assault or the death of a baby”
 

He also states “do not keep back training from the child: for even if you give him blows with the rod, it will not be death to him” (Proverbs 23:13) despite the fact that scientists have found that beating your children doesn't work in the long term and can make children more aggressive.

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Acts 2:22 Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 2:3  “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 3:13  The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

1 Corinthians 8:6  " yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Timothy 2:5  For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

lets see how they reinterpret these verses to suite their agenda.

All the above show that Jesus THE MAN is not a god and totally separate from god. They show Jesus simply to be "the servant of god" .

and to crown it all from the lips of the messiah Jesus himself;

Luke 18:19. WHY DO YOU CALL  ME GOOD? JESUS ANSWERED. NO ONE IS GOOD- EXCEPT GOD ALONE"  

YOUR UTTERLY DUMBFOUNDED USE OF JESUS BEING DIVINE IN POST #42: " Surely Mark's picture of Jesus walking on Water, stilling the storm, and forgiving sins all disclose that Jesus is divine"

The following passage stated by none other than Jesus, states with specificity that anyone that believes in Him can also walk upon the water, and do other miracles like Jesus performed, get it continued Bible fool?!

JESUS STATED: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." (John 14:12)

Therefore, in your simpleton pathetic quote above, Jesus is no more "divine" than others performing miracles that Jesus did IF they believe in Him, whereas this passage above blatantly states that Jesus is the SON OF GOD, and NOT the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, when Jesus  says "because I am going to the Father."  Understood Bible fool, or do you need further simple deductions?

Lets see em Reverend. In fact why do you not simply show all of these other verses where al the other gospels aside John say or indicate that Jesus is god? Think of the time we will save , Reverend "Tradey"

The other gospel  refer to him as being  only a "son of god" which is nothing more than a title of the times, and today as a matter of fact.  Indeed, the whole nation of Israel were said by god to be his own and special children.   Also Jesus is clearly called   the "son of man".  So who is making Jesus out to be a god?

This is your opinion. 

Stop being so bible ignorant!!!! Jesus is referred as being - a son of god,  before he was born.

In Luke 1:35, in the Annunciation, before the birth of Jesus, the angel tells Mary that her child "shall be called the Son of God". In Luke 4:41"

“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Mark14:62 and there are another 30+ verses that refer to him as being the "" son of Man"

Why are the other gospels silent on the matter of Jesus being a god? And doesn't all of Christianity rest on this ambiguous claim.

Well you state this.  You prove it. I deny it. But it is your assertion. 

I cannot show you what isn't there stupid! And  unlike many Christians, including you, I am not in the habit of rewriting these scripture.

Who are the "some" and which "secrets society" are you referring to?

So then do so, if your up to it, Reverend. But try and do so without invoking the supernatural. If you can.

But why would they want to give it here?

Because this is a religion forum where matters of religion are discussed and argued about.

You have not explained why they should give it - after all, it is you who wants to know the answer.

It is me that wants to know the answer Reverend. My, you are so sharp. And the reason being is that I can see no reason why a god needed to take on human form, and send himself to be crucified in a blood sacrifice at all when (1) God could see already mans suffering from where he was and (2)  he was already forgiving sin before Jesus anyway. I explained all this in the OP. So when you are ready I would like your explanation.

If you don't have one, just simply say so. I would rather you did this instead of you listing all of your qualifications as some sort of authority on the scriptures when I know you are anything but.

   And last time I checked, Matthew 7:6 still was a command.

  

Yes but this has nothing to do with tis thread right now, Reverend "Tradey".  If you would like to start a thread about Jesus' intolerance towards anyone not Jew, please do.

First off, are you still "getting tired these days", or are you ready to defend Christianity's appalling attitude towards homosexuals? 

What is this attempting to do?

Read the verses. 

Taking a verse out of context

The term "taking a verse out of context" is very much misused these days. Unless you can tell me why Jesus "will kill her children with death. Revelation 2:23", or why he never disapproves of slavery "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:47", or why he loves torture "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18:34-35"

However, it also reveals how sketchy atheists are. And how desperate they are.   

Debate me then. I'm open to most theological topics. Possible topics. 

THBT: The God of the Christian bible likely does not exist. 

THBT: Homosexuals should not be punished by death for their homosexuality. 

THBT: Jesus has acted in immoral ways. 

There are few passages from John gospel only indicating that Jesus is god.

The other gospel  refer to him as being  only a "son of god" which is nothing more than a title of the times, and today as a matter of fact.  Indeed, the whole nation of Israel were said by god to be his own and special children.   Also Jesus is clearly called   the "son of man".  So who is making Jesus out to be a god?

Why are the other gospels silent on the matter of Jesus being a god? And doesn't all of Christianity rest on this ambiguous claim.

I have heard a few reasons as to why god is said to have become flesh and not once have I been able to understand why this "incarnation" had to happen and even why it  should  be believed.

The common shout from Christians is that god,  became flesh to understand "human suffering"  . But this simply cannot be in any way true ...unless we ignore the awkward fact that God as god, understood human suffering perfectly well?  And we know this because THE BIBLE says so.

 So let us first blow the "human suffering" argument out of the water by highlighting what god himself has to say on the matter while he is still god;

Exodus 3:7 The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering".

 So we see right away, that god didn't need to go to all the trouble of sending anyone in any shape or form and that he could clearly see (and we have to assume understand) that god was well up to speed on the matter.

Another of the reasons given for this "incarnation" is that  god as Jesus was sent to forgive our sins. Why?  And again this shite can also be blown out of the water by THE BIBLE! 

Isaiah 45:21-22. God as god says;  “Turn to me and be saved,  all you ends of the earth;  for I am God, and there is no other".

Jonah 3:5-10. " When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened".

So we can clearly read,  god as god on both these occasions was forgiving sins before he is believed to have "incarnated" as Jesus on earth. And as a point of fact, Jesus as Jesus was also forgiving sins before he was crucified so that blows the "crucified for our sins" clean out of the water too.

So can a single one of the Christian fold here give a valid and factual reason why god had to "incarnate" as a human being here on earth.

 Then don't !.  You have totally  ignored  the valid questions I posed you and have yet again derailed your own thread as Ethang often does when he cannot respond soundly. And YOU do exactly the same. So, congratulations, you have become just like the vile man that you often tell us that you have aspired to be all you life , if you  wasn't,  deep down, like the vile man to begin with. 

Tradesecret: wrote: "Ethang5 is a good friend of mine.  I have know him for a significant period of time. And if you think we are like each other, that is a huge compliment for me.  If I could be more like him, I would" .#76 

Then why don't you start a thread using what you call my lies and distortions as  examples of how you believe that people or I distorts the bible?  If you cannot do that, then it is you that is the liar, Reverend "Tradey" . Meanwhile I shall continue to create threads concerning my own thoughts, ideas and theories that  I have about YOUR unreliable scriptures. And I  expect one of your personas to come along and derail them for their own lack of genuine objections and rebuttals and bible ignorance.

Any updates upon you saying that I was the main runaway from addressing Bible ignorant pseudo-christians like you as shown in the link below FOR THE 7TH TIME YOU HAVE RUN AWAY FROM SHOWING THE PROOF OF YOUR CLAIM in the link below?! 

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6165-was-jesus-homosexual?page=10&post_number=226

Tradesecret,  how many times are you going to RUN AWAY from your unsupported claim as shown above, LIAR!

Instead you purport to feign anger at others for injustice, cruelty, and evil as you see it.

Well, we are all built different , Reverend,  and by gods grace, I am told. But I can rarely remember being angry and I wouldn't "feign " my anger . I wouldn't have to. I am on the other end of a keyboard so you wouldn't know either way, now would you.

I don't believe that I have ever been angry with you, I like you when you are the Reverend.  In fact I am trying to remember the last time I was angry with any member here:

Lets see. Ah, yes it was a vile comment made by the man that you aspire to be like; he said;

Ethang5 wrote: Why would any sort of jihadist keep me awake? Most of the world is not as run over with jihadists as England is. Only sheep or soldiers get killed by jihadists.   #144

Seriously Reverend, even though you tell us he " is a good friend of yours and aspired to be more like him, "  #76  Why would you aspire to be like such a vile person as he? 

And YOU a man of the cloth, too?  Of all the places you could have shown your reverence and diplomacy as a Pastor and a Chaplain, you ignored this completely!   It was me that had to remind this vile man that some of those "sheep" belonged to gods own flock. And yes I was extremely angry. He should have been banned for that comment but had only he had just returned from a lengthy ban for constant sexual harassment of a member.   You see, the man that you aspire to be like, well, he's also a misogynist too, you see.#17 Ragnar

To be clear I own all of my words. 

That will be  in reference to your comment that  "Words are words. And that is all they are". #45  Tradesecret wouldn't it?   Then why are you so disturbed by what it is that I have to say about the scriptures and by giving my "take " on them, if " words are just words"?

And lets not forget you have also said "The Bible is a book. It can't cause anything" .#3  Tradesecret

I might well wish I did not write all of them.

Well if I was you and insults aside,  I would be down right ashamed and embarrassed at some of the things that you had wrote about yourself . Fortunately, I am not. and I can assure you that my feet are firmly on the ground, Reverend 

When caught out with your words- you just say “I don’t regret them”. 

 That is not catching anyone out, you idiot, that is an admission coming from me , and made by me, I don't regret them. Unless you can find something in particular that you believe I should be regretful for, can you? Is there?

Stop being such a sad and pathetic person and start contributing to the topics in a constructive manner. Otherwise please leave the thread. 

I have and I do. If you do not wish to be challenged on your own comments then I can only suggest that you think really hard before posting anything else that you may regret. Because it is your own  lack of thought that causes you to paint yourself into a tight biblical and theological corner.

The only derailment here is responding to your ridiculous lies and distractions.

Then simply do not respond. It really is that simple Reverend. 

 I would though like to request that  in your LAST and FINAL response to me to simply put up links to where I have deliberately lied about anything.....if you can.

 So now you have been made to realise that the sermon on the mount isn't quite as "unique" to Jesus  as you first  proclaimed it to be. You have now shifted the/YOUR meaning to that it was only Jesus' "take " that you were talking about.

Ok, how do you know what a mans "take " was during the time and place and society of the ancients from two thousand years ago?

Or are you know simply going to put words into the mouth of the Christ himself and the mouths of the bible authors?

I did see the distinction. It's far too narrow for my preference. I'm choosing to disagree with that distinction. I think you said negativity is about refraining to punch someone and I believe you've missed the persistent influence of pessimism in my life.

I think there's a new way in which you can harness negativity in your life. One, that you can use the "hopeless" aspect of it as a motivation. Two, that you can cherish your loved ones knowing full-well that they might permanently disappear the next second. On the other hand, positivity merely inflates the illusion of life and masks the inadequacies of it. I'm not convinced, I still think all religions have essentially the same golden rule. 

Interesting it is , Brother that the Reverend tradesecret protests that he isn't some one I accuse of sharing a password with. I too didn't say that he was ethang or dimtim. I think the lady/man protest too much. I also believe those other names s/he has thrown in are simple red herrings to disguise that fact.

I did suggest some time ago that I am of the belief that you and ethang share a password Note; that is not to say that you and he are the same person(but who knows?). I got banned for my trouble. But I still stand by that statement.https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6388/post-links/275293