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In fact I want to re-share with you this:
The so called "case" against me.
No one was even going to read this, much less be persuaded by it.
I was going to use it to mislynch TUF DP3, but then I decided I could better claim that I was being set up for a mislynch by scum so decided that the DP would end more quickly without the noise caused by allowing TUF to still be alive.
In the alternative world, Sui votes for TUF (because he was sheeping me the game, which, frankly, was the objectively correct thing to do in every single instance) and then I and Oro would have hammered TUF.
There is no world where TUF remaining alive wins town the game.
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@Lunatic
Frankly, you would have lost as soon as Danielle voted for Sui, because the result would have been the same. I gave serious thought to keeping you in the game because literally no one was buying your "case" againt me.
lol
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@Lunatic
Back off of Oro. He just put his mother in hospice and his play was fine.
I was the most pro-town player in the game, and no one read your "case".
I night killed you because you broke the rules by posting game relevant content outside of the game in a Google Doc and Lucky wouldn't do it.
I suppose Lucky made the right decision, because the win is better this way.
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For me, though, this has been instructive as to how TUF plays his town meta. He does objectively and subjectively scum-prone things as a townie, and he has played like he was scum for most of this game. He has deliberately misrepresented information relevant to the last DPs, he has continually gone out of his way to grasp at straws to form "cases" on players whose behaviors were decidedly pro-town, and he has consistently failed to recognize pro-town behavior among town players on whose lynch his vote was placed.
Then, only when players who engage in objectively and subjectively anti-town behavior, like Ragnar, does he abscond from the wagon in the most self-evidently scum way I have ever seen. And all the while, he was town. That is insane.
I wasn't wrong about why Ragnar should have been lynched and Danielle wasn't either. If Danielle was scum, she should have done exactly what TUF did when Ragnar "claimed" whatever he was claiming.
And moreover, while Danielle acknowledged the potentially town reasons why Zaradi did what he did, the sort of gambit like he tried to pull is as anti-town as it could have been. Zaradi bread crumbing mason when Ragnar flips town cop looks inherently scummy, from an objective valence -- even though I was (and it turns out I was right) pretty sure that Zaradi was just trying to draw the night kill, which is consistent with his desire no longer to be in the game, as is evidenced by the fact that he replaced out.
So while that may have gotten me to question my read on Danielle, the fact that she didn't back down from Ragnar's lynch proves that she has to be town. That was the first time I suspected Sui was scum, and then the NK on TUF thereafter suggests to me that it has to be Sui.
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@warren42
I didn't even read TUF's case. Sui or Oro are the only remaining scum and, frankly, it looks to me like he is the only one who has been sheeping on all the mislynches that any one of I, Danielle, or TUF led. Oro's made a post in the last day phase or the day before that his mother is in hospice which is why I think he's less likely to be the remaining scum. He's been almost totally inactive the game, but he seems to have had a good reason for it.
I initially town-read Max and therefore you get the benefit of that read. You might be scum, but as far as I'm concerned it's most likely by POE that it's Sui.
If Danielle was scum she would have jumped off of Ragnar's lynch. She didn't, so she can't be scum. So she must be town.
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I'll post my explanation as to why when I can. Busy rn
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@Lunatic
You are deliberatley misreading what I wrote and it is transparent based on what the very quote you linked.
I town read him then and my town read on him didn't change until he replaced out. Then, it changed. But now, it sure as fuck looks like you think he is going to flip town and are trying to pivot against me.
I suppose that's because perhaps I've been on you in the past and you know I'm coming after you if he flips town?
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@Lunatic
That plus you already admitted you thought he was town when you voted him.
That is a fucking lie. I said that I don't see a way to read Zaradi's behavior other than as scum since it seems like he was caught. I am, however, now less sure in light of what you have done while he was at L-1 to make yourself look super-pro town just like you did right after Ragnar "claimed" when he was at L-1 ... presumably because you knew where that was going.
I am getting the feeling now that we just repeated history. This is now the second time you've been crying "LOOK HOW PRO TOWN I AM GUYS!!!!" before a decisive action.
If Zaradi flips town I am VTLing you for death tomorrow. Realize that.
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@Lunatic
Nah you fvckers had me at l-1 for hours.
Thank you for reminding me. I almost forgot that you were the lynch before Ragnar's bullshit.
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MOD:
First, POST THE FLIP.
Second, I NEED A RULING ON WHETHER PLAYERS ARE ALLOWED TO POST GAME RELEVANT CONTENT outside of this thread.
It seems inherently anti-town to allow that; and you have modkilled a townie for less.
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You are NOW endeavoring to capitalize on Zaradi's untimely departure/
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@Lunatic
I didn't read your case, but I don't like the fact that you didn't post it here. It means you can post, but then go back and edit it, post facto. This is especially relevant in view of the fact that you are claiming that you're going to be killed tonight; which suggests to me that you are trying to capitalize on the fact that, despite the fact that a viable wagon formed on you at least once in this game; I recall you were at L-2, you are not endeavoring to manipulate and capitalize on Zaradi's untimely departure.
That makes me think, increasingly, that you know he is going to flip town; and you are threfore scum.
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@warren42
That's fine. I don't think there's a way to really proceed with this DP without lynching Zaradi though.
I town read him and scum read TUF mostly off and on through this whole game, but the replacement is so scummy after what happened that there's nothing else to do.
I just like Zaradi and I like playing with him and that is why I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Have always had a soft spot for cute boys... (note he is 24)
But this can't be read any way other than that he was scum; so TUF is probably town
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If Zaradi hadn't replaced out, I would probably have continued to defend him because I did not then and do not now see how an informed player does what he did.
If Zaradi flips town, then I think who must be scum is becoming pretty clear as the day goes on.
Warren, please provide your thoughts on the DPs so far.
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VTL Speedrace (Zaradi)
Zaradi replacing out is inherently scummy.
Max is my other willing option.
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@Danielle
Unless Zaradi has a history of engaging in ridiculous shenanigans like that as town (I think Lucky has a reputation for doing that? Not sure) then everything he did was anti-town, period.
This is what he and Lucky do lol
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@Lunatic
Sorry. Yes, I am inclined to believe if Zaradi flips scum you have to be town.
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I am just going to say as well that I very much do not like the "like" feature because I can't see who is liking these posts.
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@Lunatic
You first. I have my thoughts and will post them, but you answer my question first.
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@Danielle
"Lynch all liars" aside, he would have to justify fake claiming a power role which could have caused another town power role to out themselves. Had there been another town power role (which vanilla Zaradi wouldn't know but have to assume) they obviously would have called BS on Zaradi's fake claim and it would have caused massive confusion in the day phase. So there would have been no townie utility at all whatsoever to fake claiming. Oh, and the mafia didn't target Zaradi so obviously they didn't think he was the doctor.
The theory that Mafia didn't target Zaradi assumes that Mafia had the capability to target him in the first place, which means they had a role blocker.
If there is a doctor, then there is also a role blocker, and if Zaradi was the doctor and scum blocked him then despite the fact that he would have been on Ragnar as the doc, Ragnar still dies.
Bottom line; scum have a role blocker, or they don't. If they do, they may or may not have used it on Zaradi.
It is possible Zaradi is lying again about having a power role, and he is a doc, which should mean that he should be tunneling you and TUF hard.
I am, though, having a harder and harder time seeing what Zaradi thought would happen because he has cast doubt on the reasons I initially thought he did what he did. So if he is saying I'm wrong then I don't understand what that was all about.
I agree with you on the anti-town utility; and that is why I was, at least conceptually, still 95% down with Ragnar's lynch. But the anti-town utility Zaradi created is less than that of Ragnar.
But TUF is playing differently today. Perhaps that's not because he's being tunnelled by both of Zaradi and I.
If Zaradi is scum and TUF is town then I'm going to feel like at least as much of a moron here as I felt like when trying to master the new technology of Discord.
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@Danielle
@Lunatic
Danielle, if Zaradi is scum, then is TUF town?
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@Zaradi
I am still waiting for your response to my earlier post.
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@Danielle
So you're letting one thing you read townish outweigh the 3 anti-town things he did?
Taking into account the whole day phase, you are convinced he's scum based on how he reacted to what he seemingly understood was a power role claim made by a player he town read?
I'm not saying I won't vote for him, I'm saying that my No. 1 VTL target yesterday hasn't said anything to get me to change my mind.
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@Danielle
I repeat: if Zaradi was vanilla, he had no reason to accept Ragnar's declaration of having a power role.
Yes, I agree, but Zaradi was town reading Ragnar independently of Ragnar's claim. Objectivley I agree. Everyting Ragnar did yesterday meant he should be lynched for reasons I've already stated. But Zaradi disagreed and Ragnar flipped town. Zaradi as scum should have jumped on that wagon at some point.
What's the alternative world; he hammers Ragnar and the cop flips town?
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@Lunatic
Most of your post above is circular and it does not now and has not changed my mind about Zaradi. You want me to VTL Zaradi and are implying that my disinclination to do that implies that I'm scum, which again is just a creative way to say "you disagree with me and therefore you're scum." You have not, in any way, dealt with the analysis I posted when I got up this morning because you are not considering, subjectively, what town Zaradi would or would not do and that is not going to get me to change my mind.
There are two possible worlds: one where he is town, and one where he is scum. I have already said why, subjectively, there is no world where scum Zaradi does what he did yesterday because he would have known that he would be exactly in the situation that he is in now with you and Danielle. It's too much WIFOM for me to believe it. I have also already said why, objectively, there is no reason why scum Zaradi does what he did because he would be setting himself up for the lynch. So you either have to believe one of two worlds: town world he just pushed the envelope by doing risky things, but scum world he is suicidally stupid because he would have understood the risk of being in exactly the position he's in now. And the issue then becomes, what is more plausible.
Objectively, I think Town Zaradi doesn't and shouldn't be doing what he did; also for reasons I've already said. It's a risky strategy, but as town he isn't going to be able to fully appreciate that risk until he's scum; which means he leaped without looking, and now you are trying to nail him to the cross for it. Subjectively, I can see exactly why from Zaradi's perspective he did what he did which was the first post I made this morning since. So I am thinking through this in a way very different than you are. I suppose I will have to spell it out more clearly in a subsequent post.
I agree Zaradi's conduct today isn't helping him; and if your claim that I am scum and helping him by buddying him today and setting him up for the lynch, then why on earth would I have allowed that move in the first place? I already said the three obvious reasons why it was a risky move and literally NO ONE IN THIS GAME OTHER THAN YOU was scum reading Zaradi, and the only reason you were scum reading Zaradi was because he VTL'd you (which is what you always do any time anyone VTLs you). So again return to Zarad's subjective perspective here: As scum, why does he willfully put himself in the line of fire, when he had absoutely no reason to do so, and it in no way AT ALL helps scum interests because of the obvious consequenses of what those actions would be? Again, you have to assume he is suicidally stupid as scum, which is why I don't believe it.
I am not VTLing Zaradi based on what you have said. I have not had the chance to really read the DP yet because of work stuff, but there is no way I am VTLing Zaradi based on the case you made against him which -- today as yesterday -- is just that you think his play is stupid and bad.
Give me a reason why the hell it makes sense for scum Zaradi to do what he did, and then I will consider but you have not done that. And those reasons should be different than what Danielle has already said because I've thought about that and am still considering. If you want to add on, fine. But don't just repeat.
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@Lunatic
ou thought Coal (and Dani for that matter) was going too far by digging for information and openly speculating about power roles right? It's the one thing we agreed on last day phase. But then you are suddenly okay with risking outting the other PR by going along with it? It's hypocritical for one thing, but then I don't think you really thought of the negative impact of what you were doing, because you could still potentially just claim ignorance to ever softing in the first place...
I agree with this statement, sort of. Accepting this logic requires me to reframe my entire read of Zaradi, but potentially that is necessary.
I suppose, sort of, I can see how scum Zaradi does what he did. I'm still skeptical, though. I can still see why vanilla townie Zaradi does the same thing; and I am still leaning in that direction.
I need to hear more from Zaradi, though, on why he did what he did. and what the hell he was tryiung to do and what he thought he woiuld be achieving.
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@Zaradi
So explain to me just what the hell it was that you were trying to do and why.
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@Lunatic
I am reconsidering this based on your post 77.
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@Zaradi
Of the power roles that were most likely, you were the only one playing like you had one; and of the most likely on that list I posted before, if you had that role then Ragnar didn't, which is why I didn't know what to make of what you were doing yesterday.
And then when I tried to figure out what was going on, you shut me down and then I figured that the reason you shut me down was because you were saying he was a mason with you; which would explain both why you weren't on Ragnar's lynch and why you were going after TUF all day yesterday.
But that all happened pretty quickly. There was a set of possible claims that Ragnar was making and I had no idea what he was saying. But I initially didn't think he was claiming mason, which is why I presumed that if you were breadcrumbing it had to be something other than mason.
Then you all but hard claimed mason, so I backed off of him.
And while you weren't being truthful, I still do not see why you would ever do something like that as scum.
But this question is strange. Are you saying you weren't trying to do the thing I town read you for?
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@Danielle
@Lunatic
If you two think I'm wrong about town-reading Zaradi, then explain why because I still cannot see how scum zaradi so blatantly and obviously puts himself in the line of fire to protect a townie who claimed a power role that, if scum, Zaradi would have understood. It just makes absolutely no sense why scum town read a townie power role the entire game and then put himself on the line to protect a town power role.
If Ragnar flipped scum then we would be lynching Zaradi but I do not see the logic in how scum Zaradi pulls that off. If scum, Zaradi should have been on Ragnar's lynch and then pulled off it loudly and dramatically after Ragnar's "claim".
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@Lunatic
If Zaradi was trying to draw the night kill was the drawback to him being forced to hardclaim? Also if he was drawing the nk, this was a horrible anti-town plan. If he was CC'ed by (the only other person it could have been who hasn't read up til now) Airmax, then his attempt to draw out a nk would have hurt town by drawing out the other PR...
This is a hindsight-based question. Zaradi was never going to hard claim because if he did that would have defeated the whole purpose of what he was trying to achieve in the first place.
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All that does is make Zaradi at least as viable a NK target as Ragnar; it doesn't confirm, at all or in any way, who has what role unless both are masons; which we now know was not the case.
I meant NK not NL. I need to edit these better... and will try to do so. I'm just kind of busy today.
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@Lunatic
I also was under the impression he was more likely hinting at being mason, I think most of us were; But what I mean by he couldn't have been the other power role, is because the breadcrum post was a little more than a breadcrum when he actually says "Because holy shit I don't think I can say it any different way without hardclaiming".
All that does is make Zaradi at least as viable a NL target as Ragnar; it doesn't confirm, at all or in any way, who has what role unless both are masons; which we now know was not the case.
What Zaradi did was negate the effect of Ragnar's claim, which, whatever it was, Zaradi believed. Objectively I still disagree with what Zaradi did, but my disagreement isn't the issue. The issue is what TOWN Zaradi thinks versus what SCUM Zaradi thinks. I just don't see the world where Zaradi does that as scum, knowing Ragnar is going to flip town.
The rational thing for scum to have done is kill one and roleblock the other.
Zaradi isn't, and can't be the doc, to the extent we have one, because if he WAS a doc then he would have been Doc'cing ragnar as per his activity yesterday, which means there is a role blocker, which means the role blocker blocked Zaradi, which is why Ragnar is dead.
That doesn't mean there isn't a doc, though. There might be, or their might not be; and mafia may or may not have role blocked that person; and even if they did, there's no way to know whether it made a difference because based on what was knowable last DP there were still very good reasons to be lynching Ragnar. That's what every town should have been doing.
And Zaradi knew, though, that Ragnar was the target and he also knew that drawing the NK meant that Ragnar might be able to post his result, which is obviously proving that he doesn't have a power role because if Zaradi was the doc he never would have made the post you identify above. He would have just doc'd Ragnar and there would have been no NK, because, again, Zaradi was never on Ragnar's lynch in the first place.
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@Lunatic
determining the zaradi dynamic is kind of more important.
Explain what you mean by this.
If Ragnar flipped scum I would be VTLing Zaradi for death. That didn't happen. Zaradi's actions don't make sense other than what I said, unless you have some alternative theory. There is an alternative theory, I just don't think it's plausible.
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@Lunatic
The only person I can think of who didn't opine after all of this happened is airmax.
Correct. Though that doesn't do much of anything in terms of his affiliation. I could prod him to be active by FOSing him like I did yesterday after we're 200 or 300 posts into the DP, but then he's going to respond to that the same way he did yesterday; which doesn't tell me anything new. It also isn't going to give me anything useful.
Max should opine, though.
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@Lunatic
BTW for this to have been zaradi's strategy it would also have required inside information that there was not another power role,
Wrong, because he never hard claimed either. He neither CC'd Ragnar, nor hard claimed. What he did was he breadcrumed (at least to me, is how I read it) that he was the other mason, Ragnar being the former -- which means he was at once drawing the NK, which means he isn't the other power role. Unless he knew he wouldn't be night killed; in which case you are probably town. But I don't think he knew that. Not based on how he played that yesterday. I think drawing the NK away from Ragnar was his intention; based on the fact that he believed Ragnar (which would be consistent with the fact that he was not, in any meaningful way, supprotive of Ragnar's lynch beyond just saying that he would only be willing to VTL Ragnar at the end of the DP for results).
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@Lunatic
Don't you find it kind of interesting that Danielle seems to just assume this is the second set up?
I do, for the same reason I led a lynch on you yesterday. So I am reflecting on that; but the reason I'm not pushing harder is because as scum Danielle would have had to know Ragnar was town, which means that she should have been off Ragnar's lynch as loudly and dramatically as she could have been if she was scum. The fact that she didn't hide from Ragnar's wagon tells me that she was reading his behavior (correctly), which is, again, why Ragnar's play is so irritating.
I still haven't updated my read on Danielle because I have to think more about it. I'm not sure that my read on Danielle has changed, but I'm not sure that it hasn't. She said she's going to re-read the DP from her new perspective with the flip in mind. I will assess what she posts, and indicate what impact it has. But she needs to react to the flip before I can say anything meaningful.
At the moment, though, again, I still lean town on Danielle because I just do not see the world where Danielle is scum and stays on the lynch. That is something that I don't even think Lucky would do. Maybe, but it would be inconceivable to me that anyone with an informed perspective other than the mason stays on Ragnar's lynch post his "claim". I will post more on that later on, as well, once others post their thoughts on the flip on this issue. But again, as I alluded to in response to Zaradi, once scum realized what Ragnar said and what it meant, they should have either gotten the fuck off that lynch or they should have been lurking to avoid the indignity of being forced to hammer who they knew was a town power role. So the lurkers are who I want to talk today.
I mean I fully buy that it is, but like you said, there's no obvious conclusion that it should be the second one. Also she never backed off the Ragnar read (even you reluctantly did), and she kept asking the other power role to "confirm" ragnar.
That's one way of reading her reaction so far, and it's one that I considered, and am still considering. But I'm still at the same place with the Ragnar lynch. I VTL'd him for death and I maintain that was the right thing to do based on everything he did and failed to do in the last DP, and that is why I see absolutely no reason why there's not a doctor in the game. Ragnar's being at L-1 wasn't just some accident, and the Doc may have (with ample justification) believed that Ragnar was fake claming because he denied town the chance to counterclaim him. Ragnar would have only been confirmed town following an unrebutted hard claim; in which case the doctor should have been on him; in which case he would be alive to post results today, assuming that the doc wasn't role blocked.
So my thoughts on Danielle aren't per se changing; but they're not per say not changing. Remains to be seen, I still lean town though.
The fact that you asked those questions tells me that you realize, now, that you were wrong about Ragnar's role and you're backing off of it. Maybe it's because you're worried I'm going to VTL you for death, but on the other hand you seem to be thinking about what happened last night in a way that is contrary to what I would expect.
As scum you have really no option other than to VTL me for death and try to manipulate others into building a wagon on me, based on some creative reinterpretation of what happened yesterday. I have some more thoughts on that too, that I will post after other people post their thoughts on the flip. But, you have moved yourself from the "VTL for Death" pile to the "I am willing to consider and explore your lynch" pile.
I know that if I lead the wagon on you -- which I absolutely could do, in the same way I did it yesterday and for at least the reasons I've already said -- I know what you're going to do, though, and that is going to piss me off. You're going to scum read me with some bullshit, ill conceived rant that is going to result in you and I dominating the entire DP which is going to give the -- many -- inactives every chance to lurk and avoid being pressured. That is at least as much negative town utility as the bullshit Ragnar pulled yesterday, so I'm not doing it for the moment. Do not misinterpret that as my saying I'm not suspicious of you, but I don't want this DP to go in that direction. If it has to the end of the DP, then so be it. But we aren't there yet, and I don't think I see a reason to start the DP in that direction because it's just going to create chaos.
So that is why I am not voting you at this moment. I want to see, as well, how you respond to other people in the absence of you thinking I am tunnelling you because I know how you're going to respond of I do that and I don't see the value in that.
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So to claim, or act like, anyone knew what Ragnar's role was, implies -- without doubt -- an informed perspective.
Note, the only non-scum informed perspective is mason, which is what I thought you were, for the reasons I stated above, which is why I unvoted Ragnar but only reluctantly. I suppose that wasn't clear above either -- that was a very stream of consciousness post written late last night.
That is still my current thinking though.
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@Zaradi
You and I are going to have a nice, long talk in the end game about a few things. I'm still digesting your post.
Indicate whether, if at all, your read has changed on TUF; and why or why not.
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@Zaradi
That's why, even if your misleading as to whether you were a mason still doesn't matter (which, given your play last DP, is an impossibility), because you were clearly bread crumbing that you had some kind of power role. So there's a world where I read your behavior as that you were actually trying to draw the NK by implying you were some kind of power role, potentially with some association to Ragnar (read: mason); in which case, what would have happened is that scum would have killed vanilla and not a power role and at least the cop would be alive. So even though you lied, the effect was pro-town; and that seems to be in line with your intentions. It didn't work, but it was probably the most pro-town utility thing that happened the last DP. Which is why I am having a hard time changing my read on you. If you are asking whether my read on you changes because of the results on Ragnar, I would have to be ignoring the intent and potential effect (even if you couldn't have known that effect), which would be the kind of thing I'd expect scum to do. I'm not a per se lynch all liars type. Sometimes town has to lie to prevent a greater harm. (While it's not relevant because it didn't happen, the more interesting question is how my read on you would have changed if Ragnar flipped scum. It is for that, and that reason alone, I was damn near certain you were a mason because I can never imagine scum pulling something like that to save their partner at L-1. )
As I said above, you were breadcrumbing that you were a Mason, or at least that's what I got from it, but you didn't do that before Ragnar's "claim".
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I am posting the Day Phase 1 here for my own records.
As well as these Notable Moments:
1. Notable Moment 1
2. Notable Moment 2
3. Notable Moment 3
There are others, but for this DP I think this is what's important.
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I amend this:
She is probably right, but the other possibility is that there is a doc and that person just didn't correctly use their role. So we are in one of two possible setups:
To say this instead:
She is probably right, but the other possibility is that there is a doc and that person just didn't correctly use their role (because they weren't paying attention, or because they were paying attention and scum read Ragnar despite his non-claim of a claim), or was role blocked.
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@Zaradi
Everything about this irritates me. I backed off of Ragnar's lynch because I assumed if you were town, then he must also be town. I town read you for reasons we both know, and I backed off of Ragnar because I trusted my town read on you.
I disagree with Danielle's conclusion that there is no doctor in the game. She is probably right, but the other possibility is that there is a doc and that person just didn't correctly use their role. So we are in one of two possible setups:
1. Column A & Row 1: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5
2. Column C & Row 1: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Cop, Vanilla Townie x 6
Ragnar correctly identified that "if mafia have a power role, it is a roleblocker," because he knew that, as cop, those were the only two possible setups. He must have assumed there was a doctor in the game which was why he claimed.
The alternative worlds where Mafia has Roleblocker Power Role that were on the table last DP were, **if** mafia has a power role:
1. Column A & Row 1: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5
2. Column A & Row 2: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker, Vanilla Townie x 5
3. Column A & Row 3: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5
So that meant that Ragnar could have been any one of (a) cop, (b) doctor, (c) jailkeeper, (d) tracker, or (e) mason.
That was five possible roles. So to claim, or act like, anyone knew what Ragnar's role was, implies -- without doubt -- an informed perspective.
That's why, even if your misleading as to whether you were a mason still doesn't matter (which, given your play last DP, is an impossibility), because you were clearly bread crumbing that you had some kind of power role. So there's a world where I read your behavior as that you were actually trying to draw the NK by implying you were some kind of power role, potentially with some association to Ragnar (read: mason); in which case, what would have happened is that scum would have killed vanilla and not a power role and at least the cop would be alive. So even though you lied, the effect was pro-town; and that seems to be in line with your intentions. It didn't work, but it was probably the most pro-town utility thing that happened the last DP. Which is why I am having a hard time changing my read on you. If you are asking whether my read on you changes because of the results on Ragnar, I would have to be ignoring the intent and potential effect (even if you couldn't have known that effect), which would be the kind of thing I'd expect scum to do. I'm not a per se lynch all liars type. Sometimes town has to lie to prevent a greater harm. (While it's not relevant because it didn't happen, the more interesting question is how my read on you would have changed if Ragnar flipped scum. It is for that, and that reason alone, I was damn near certain you were a mason because I can never imagine scum pulling something like that to save their partner at L-1. )
From a scum perspective, there is no world where scum could do anything other than gtfo of Ragnar's lynch, and do so as conspicuously, loudly and dramatically as possible (Look how town I am! I see the light! So pro town! Not on the lynch! If you disagree with me no follow from me tomorrow!). Note, of course, you were never on that wagon in the first place, despite having every objective reason to be. Which is why I thought you were a mason -- which is why I was willing to back off of Ragnar in the first place despite my amply stated desire to VTL him for death.
The problem is that everything I said about Ragnar's play remains true.
Which is why there's still potentially a doc in the game, and, as well, potentially a role blocker. While you read Ragnar differently than I did, Ragnar was at L-1 and it took him claiming a power role for that to change; which is the most anti-town way you can play a power role. He wasn't counterclaimed, but no one could counterclaim because his role could have been any one of the five listed above. If he just said, "cop" and then NOT been counterclaimed, then he obviously would have had the doc on him; but Ragnar didn't do that. He made some nebulous power role claim that seemingly only one player understood it to mean what it meant -- who is today's lynch, and should have been lynched yesterday. Now the opportunity that has created seems to be defining his new strategy.
I also think after Ragnar's claim, for scum to remain on his wagon would be difficult to imagine because they'd be paranoid about looking like scum -- because they're scum. After all, once you know you're scum it's hard to forget about it, which is why slips happen in the first instance.
I state the above because I can see how a doc remains in the game (potentially) and that person either didn't Doc Ragnar for the same reason he was at L-1, or was roleblocked. I'm not going to speculate, openly or otherwise, on who that person is. It's obvious it's not you, but to the extent there is a doc, that person should still be protecting you because of what happened yesterday. But I think it's at least as likely that a doc was role blocked as it is that the doc just didn't protect Ragnar. So scum may or may not know who the doc is. They may have role blocked someone, but it may not have made a difference; which, again, is why Ragnar's play is very, very irritating.
So I think you know where I'm going with this and it's going to take a lot to change my mind, but I'm 95% set on who I'm VTLing today.
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