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I started watching Flash@Netflix but for some reason I don't expect to like it.
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@David
@Barney
@Vader
@MisterChris
Please add this write up for Ragnar:
"Ragnar has been my model for online debating since he handed me my first debate loss back in 2013. A US immigrant who served our country as a medic under fire in Iraq with the 82nd ("DEATH from ABOVE") Airborne division, Ragnar has earned my admiration and gratitude far above and apart from any website participation but I believe that history and strength of character is evident in his leadership here among our little company of madmen and malcontents. He is not just a paragon of persuasion, he is also an composer of crystal clear prose. He is not just a moderator, he is also moderate and fair-minded and restrained in wise opinion. After our losses in leadership late last year, Ragnar stepped up into the breach to preserve the legitimacy and quality of debates on this site and remains the strongest arch upholding the leaky roof that is our voting policy. In fact, he's just weeks away from becoming our all time top voter. For his humor, keen reason, good sportsmanship, even-handed leadership and easy friendship, Ragnar is most worthy of this elevation to DebateArt's Hall of Fame." -Oromagi
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How about email verification requirements and a reCAPTCHA?
Perhaps. I don't know how effective email verification is elsewhere but it certainly seems to be standard these days.
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no escalating, please and no taking things personally. It's all just poop on the chess board, making the pieces harder to see.
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@Lunatic
it's still a fact that one is definitely a lover since the other confirmed this.
This is false. They could both be SCUM taking a big risk.
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If you say that if X happens I'll think Y, then you give the mafia the chance to manipulate you.
Only if I feel bound by earlier, less informed reads, which I never do. Nor should any player. As I reminded TOWN last game, consistency is a SCUM trait, not TOWN. Consider also that if LOVERS are actually town and survive to DP2 they will likely be half of TOWN vote.
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@Lunatic
The thing here is you are basically telling the mafia what their optimal strategy with the night kill is. Now that this conversation is very loud and public are you going to change your mind in later day phases about this situation? If we are in day phase 2 or 3 and the lovers are still alive will you still want to mislynch them after we basically just told the mafia (assuming they are not it) that leaving them alive will look scummy?
If LOVERS are both TOWN and my statement of the obvious does not change SCUM's mind to kill the LOVERs than my statement had no impact.
If LOVERS are both TOWN and my statement of the obvious changes SCUM's mind and LOVERs survive, then I have done TOWN a favor.
If LOVERs are not both TOWN (as I suspect) then I have increased the likelihood that they'll be monitored.
As Emerson said, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. I never feel beholden to prior analysis in the face of good evidence to the contrary.
If LOVERS survive, we can hope some role verifies them . If LOVERS die, we can hope some role has evidence. Every alternative is WiFoM at this point, I just want TOWN to go forward with a wary eye on the LOVERS claim. You don't, apparently, for reasons you fail to explain. Why do you believe the LOVERS when we agree that their claim is anti-TOWN?
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@Lunatic
The fact that it's obvious is what makes it scummy.
Here we strongly disagree. I am of the opinion that TOWN should be able to state very, very obvious things without arousing accusations that we are giving shit away to SCUM. SCUM is always smarter than TOWN. TOWN has to operate in a more open-handed fashion, making sure the rest of TOWN is on the same page.
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If town, it gives Mafia ideas, and helps them mislynch the speaker for trying to build a case ahead of time. If mafia, it tries to build town cred.
Just stating the super-duper obvious. I am quite confident that Mafia considered the advantages of whacking two TOWN at once in a 9 man game long before I said so.
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@Lunatic
I feel pretty confident that the skittlez lynch is basically a free mislynch, and obviously the lover lynch would hurt worse if they aren't lying, which I don't think they are.
- so we agree that lynching MILLER or LOVER doesn't make much sense. You don't think either LOVER is lying, I think one of the two probably is but neither of has evidence. I have explained my suspicions but you have not explained your confidence.
Supa really fvcked us by claiming. In the off-chance one of the two of them are scum, I might lean towards it being supa by how panicked his outting was.
- We agree that Supa's claim was profoundly anti-TOWN. I have let this suspicious behavior inform my choices. You have not explained why you still think Supa is likely TOWN in spite of his anti-TOWN move.
it would probably be Oro for that "If the LOVERS survive NP1, I'm going to have a hard time reading them as TOWN." statement.
- I have explained that if Intel and Supa are merely bumbling town, then the likelihood of NK on them is extremely high. Therefore, if they don't die my suspicion on them increases. You say that's scummy but I just the call that the obvious consequence of claiming LOVER early.
"SuGgEsT aN aLtErNaTiVe ThEn"
- You chastise yourself for not suggesting an alternative and then fail to suggest an alternative. Great.
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Fortune is Skittlez's foe, and frowns on him;
For he hath stolen a pax, and hanged must a' be:
A damned death!
Let gallows gape for dog; let man go free
And let not hemp his wind-pipe suffocate:
But Drafterman hath given the doom of death
For pax of little price.
Therefore, go speak: the duke will hear thy voice:
And let not Skittlez 's vital thread be cut
With edge of penny cord and vile reproach:
Speak, Ragnar, for his life, and I will thee requite.
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@drafterman
You know what reveals things? Lynches.
I don't mind lynching but none of the three claims seem like viable targets for the reasons I've given. We need someone else to target for some reason not yet offered.
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@SirAnonymous
@oromagi
For anyone still reading this far: BOOKMARK THIS POST. Several people talked about how such and such combination is unbalanced. Personally, I have been quite clear and vocal on this matter: YOU CANNOT DRAW ANY CONCLUSIONS ABOUT BALANCE WITHOUT KNOWING ALL THE ROLES. Looking at two roles and saying they can't be in the game together because that would be OP is bogus because you don't know what other roles exist that could balance it out. You simply don't know until you know what the Mafia can do and you can't know that until you kill them all.
I referenced drafter's caution at the top of my remarks. No need to repeat to me what I just said.
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@Vader
You also have to understand what gambit I'd be making if I was scum outing us a scum LOVERS. If any of us were to visit anyone and caught on camera, and then that lynch happened, and the other didn't die, it would be game over. This is a stupid hypothetical brought up. There is more risk than reward to claiming lover as scum than town
Yeah, like I said. Both SCUM or both TOWN seems far less likely in such a tight game than half and half. Half and half means that scum team has to keep one town alive to keep one scum alive which makes for a much more interesting and durable game than the explosive potential of same aligned LOVERS.
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@Vader
I didn't want to make it obvious we were connected
As I said, you could have claimed that you had a reason without saying why- that could include lots of possibilities and doesn't make an obv link. Or you could have said nothing.
What you did was make Intel more likely to be lynched one hour and then rode to his rescue the next hour. Very odd.
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If there are three scum and both LOVERS are actually town, then we are already at MYLO. I am going to assume that there are only two SCUM and that TOWN is heavy on PROTECTIVE roles or else one or both LOVERS are lying.
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@Intelligence_06
Why is it that if we suvives np1 it is less town? Do you kill two citizens or do you kill a governmental official if you want to effectively overthrow the regime?
because taking out two town votes in a 9 man game making it a 5:2 or even 4:3 in the first round game will be hard to resist. Even knowing that, watchers have half the usual chance of watching the right target, doctors have half the right chance of protecting, etc. But if one or both LOVERs are SCUM, scum won't harm the town LOVER and might even defend them against lynch (as Supa has done).
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essentially, we have two claims so far, MILLER and two LOVERs. Of these, I find MILLER more likely than LOVERs.
It seems like we have somebody claims MILLER DP1 fairly frequently in recent games. The fact that skit is following form only demonstrates that he's probably been paying more attention to games than he lets on.
The LOVERS claim is rarer and more suspicious.
- LOVERS can be TOWN, SCUM, or mixed. As drafter cautions, balance analysis mid-game is fraught but I still note that In a nine person role madness game, two TOWN lovers represent a vulnerable, unpowered quarter or even third. Two SCUM LOVERS seems even less likely- one lucky lynch on DP1 and the game might be over.
- But a TOWN/SCUM mix might make sense and certainly adds to the madness.
- But Supa explicitly says that his PM exonerates both him and Intel as TOWN. MafiaWiki suggests such disclosures are normal play.
- But why then would Supa FOS Intel in #105, 106. IF Supa is TOWN and knows for sure that Intel is town, he might defend him or he might stay quiet but why on earth would he be putting distance between them? Supa says, "major red flag" "slight scum read" and then an hour later he's saying he's my LOVER. A good TOWN player who wanted to preserve Intel might say "don't ask me why but I can vouch for Intel" or reveal nothing and argue Intel is TOWN but what possible advantage to TOWN could sus'ing Intel offer?
- perhaps because some LOVERS can have a TP wincon and Supa was thinking like SCUM?
Obviously, we don't have a lot of data yet and lynching an un-cc'd LOVER in DP1 would be mad but of the three claims so far I find Supa's least likely to be true. If the LOVERS survive NP1, I'm going to have a hard time reading them as TOWN.
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TOWN Claim Role
3. oromagi . .
8. SirAnonymous .
6. Lunatic .
7. MisterChris .
2. drafterman .
SCUM
UVC
skittlez09 - Intelligence_06 , drafterman (2/5)
MisterChris - SirAnonymous (1/5)
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Chris says he is going to make a bigger post in the morning, so no need to rush anything.
So Chris is giving you updates where?
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right now? MisterChris
If I am remembering correctly he was chatty town two games ago and quiet scum one game back.
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DDO has reCaptcha but it does not weed out much spam as far as I can tell.
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@Speedrace
And by maybe I mean yes lol
Thx,
I happy I'm not imagining it but I understand that we can't look to drafter's list now as a standard for this game.
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@Vader
->@RagnarJust remember: Supa told us he was a lover in the Civil War mafia instead of a sibling. He then failed to correct the error in fifty pages.
I don't remember this. Can you confirm this?
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@Speedrace
@oromagiI could have sworn I saw a "all roles are from drafterman's list" statement but now I can't find one. I'm I just deluded?I distinctly remember that too!
Is it possible you posted this and then changed?
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@Vader
just lovers
did you chose your LOVER?
were you chosen by your LOVER? or
were you both assigned LOVER before the game?
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@Intelligence_06
@RagnarDrafterman has basically all kinds of roles that are usable. Most games use drafterman's list.
Including your ROLE of LOVER this game?
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@drafterman
I don't remember seeing such a stipulation.
thx
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@Intelligence_06
It says in my PM. You are both town
Can you confirm SupaDudz here?
Are you able to PM each other?
Did you approve Supa's outing your role?
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I could have sworn I saw a "all roles are from drafterman's list" statement but now I can't find one. I'm I just deluded? There are important differences between Drafter's LOVER and MafiaWiki's LOVER
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Ragnar's reads look like Chris's mafia analysis and oromagi's debate arguments had a baby, but I don't think that's significant.
Without confirming or denying anything I'd just like to make it clear that I'm the daddy in any such arrangement.
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@draftermanIn fact, I'll hammer the first person to get to L-1 (that isnt me)I wouldn't recommend that strategy if the person at L-1 is someone you town read.
+1 I call that the least town remark this game (tho its early)
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TOWN Claim Role
3. oromagi . .
9. Ragnar .
8. SirAnonymous .
6. Lunatic .
7. MisterChris .
2. drafterman .
SCUM
UVC
skittlez09 - Intelligence_06 (1/5)
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@Barney
-->@oromagiNice recipe for breadcrumbs!
ssshhhh. no breadcrumbs allowed
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Ingredients
8 oz. sliced stale white or wheat bread
tsp. salt
tsp. pepper
Directions
- Preheat oven to 400 degrees F. Place bread on cookie sheet and toast 10 to 15 minutes to dry out. Cool completely.
- In food processor with knife blade attached, pulse bread with salt and pepper until fine crumbs form. Add flavor variations, below, if desired; pulse to combine. Store in tightly sealed container at room temperature up to 1 week or in freezer up to 3 months.Italian: Add 1/4 teaspoon each dried oregano and rosemary, and 1/8 teaspoon garlic powder.Mexican: Add 1/2 teaspoon chili powder and 1/2 teaspoon ground cumin.French: Add 1/2 teaspoon dried tarragon and additional 1/8 teaspoon black pepper.
- VTL Supadudz
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Personally, I'd prefer to play very balanced games in which every player has a good sense of the game's limits and possible scenarios. The more PRs, the less confidence players can have in their analysis and the more the game becomes a crap shoot. I think more VANILLA favors more strategic thinking.
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Details are still coming in but so far everything I've seen relates to one doctor with a history of performing unwanted procedures to maximize government payouts. I've heard several accusations of sterilization for racist or political effect but I consider that charge unproved right now. I note that this story broke on the same day that AG Barr called his own administration's COVID lockdown (some Federal aspects of which his office is in charge of prosecuting) the worst civil rights violation since slavery. I would suggest that we castrate the Attorney General so that he has an opportunity for real-life comparison if I thought that fat toady had any balls to cut.
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I don't think there's any question trumpists will surrender all prior moral objections to appointing justices from four years ago and demand an appointment before January. What if Trump manages to bring the election outcome before the court (a la 2000)?
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Because croc is cop. Nobody gives a plausible explanation for how croc summoned the wherewithal to claim cop DP1. If you can’t explain, them he is very likely cop. Everybody seems to agree that croc always plays scummy therefore playing scummy is no indicator.
I’m amazed nobody even wants to wait for cops report
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