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...Alright then. Not really sure where to go from here, though now I townread warren.
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@Speedrace
Draft would have to announce that Supa had activated it. If he just announces that it is active, that’s a different story.
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@ILikePie5
The role was called "Agitator," but yes, it functioned the same as Troublemaker (not that I got to use it). That's part of the reason I'm suspicious. The role just allows for an extra lynch one time during a DP. That leads to two problems.
First, that doesn't line up with what Supa is saying, and he could easily have confirmed the role with Draft at any time. He claimed that there are two second lynches during two separate DPs, and claimed that one was private and the other public, which didn't make any sense, even after he tried to explain it. Now he's backpedaling on the claim, removing pieces of it that don't fit the actual role.
Second, contrary to his initial claim, he can't actually town-confirm himself. When I was the Agitator, there was a statement I could make during the DP that would actually activate the ability. For Troublemaker, it's activated during the NP, so even if Draft announces it during the next DP, it doesn't town-confirm him any more than it does anyone else. He can claim that he activated it, but that's about it.
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I've gotta go for now, but I'll keep my vote where it is at the moment. There's enough going on here that I'm not convinced I should remove my vote just yet. If this is a town role, it would be a shame to lose it, but it sounds like Supa might be wasting half the role even if he does have it just to town-confirm himself.
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@Vader
Never depending on how that player is. Grey and Pie are easy to read. Speed is somewhat easy but he's smart so he can get away with it. Harder players are drafter and Lunatic. Some don't even have a consistent playstyle to make them hard to read. There is no set amount
Look, I don't scum read you for this, but you did say that there weren't enough games to know MC's playstyle. That's just a weird statement. If you want to argue that you haven't gotten to know MC's playstyle well even with that number of games, then fine, but based on this statement, that has more to do with difficulty in reading him personally. I don't blame you for that, but you probably don't want to argue that you haven't been in enough games with him to know him. Just say that you haven't been able to nail him down in previous games. If it has nothing to do with number and everything to do with playstyle, then leave it at that.
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@Vader
You vote on the lynch in private. We lynch our first suspect, then the second lynch is announced. There are two vote counts
Alright... that's confusing. How is a private lynch accomplished when we don't know how everyone else is voting? How can we achieve a majority vote if we don't know how other people are voting? Is it just based on the person who receives the most votes? Will Draft contact us to let us know this vote is going on?
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@Vader
That still isn't enough games to know your style of play, sorry
How many games is enough to know someone's playstyle?
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@Vader
It would've been used to confirm me, but you can VTNL on it so if we didn't have any clear results we'd just do that
I mean, that's good to know, but a) your scenario that you just explained assumes a double mislynch, so your sudden interest in a VTNL use of your public lynch doesn't jive with what you just said, and b) it sounds like an absolute waste unless we are absolutely certain you are town after you use it. For now, let's focus on b). What happens when you activate your public lynch? Does Draft broadcast that it's available and it came from you, or do you just say that it's available? If it's the latter, what separates that from the private lynch? I really want to know how your role works.
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@Vader
Because if we mislynch here, it's 6v2, then it's NK, it's 5v2, then if we activate my role it's 3v2 if we mislynch. Worse if there is 3P
That's not really responsive to the main issue I have with how that statement jives with your claim, though you do respond to it later, so I'll go there.
It works in the DP, but I select in the night when to use it. So if I use it tonight, the next DP it takes effect
That clarifies why you need to wait until at least the next DP to demonstrate this, but I'm a bit lost on this. Were you going to use your public extra lynch for the next DP? For someone who is so concerned about a mislynch, you want to give two lynches to town that early, when POE is likely to be minimal? Does your role say that the extra lynch must be used? If it's public knowledge, how are we informed of it, and if it's the private lynch, what does that mean?
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@Vader
I can prove myself next DP but it could cause town to lose the game if we mislynch or not lynch potentially, so pick yer poison
You mind explaining how this earlier statement applies to your claim?
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@Vader
I put a vote on him because I thought he had slipped up and adjusted his role. Why is it bad for me to VTL when I think that's what is going on?
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@Vader
There has been a wagon on Speed and now me for a claim. Are you going to look for more claims? Please let me know what part of my behavior has been suspicious. I have remained consistent with the logic that looking for claims unless there's viable suspicious behavior. I have not heard why I am suspicious but that I am suspicious.
Yes, there has been a wagon on Speed, and I'm uninterested in joining it because I don't see anything that indicates to me that he is scum. If we get a claim out of him anyway, I might change my mind with regards to pursuing more claims. Right now, that's not the case, so here we are.
I think your behavior has been pretty overly defensive, both of yourself in some places and, more so, of MC. The quote I responded to earlier about it being an overreaction to a joke seemed entirely unnecessary to me, as there's no reason why any pursuit of a claim is necessarily wrong at this stage. You've been consistently defensive, yes, but that's reason enough for me to be on you. Also, since you've at least partially claimed (your role will somehow trigger such that it will become obvious in the next DP. You may have good reason not to provide more information, but I'm curious nonetheless why you would provide a partial claim at all if it's so important to hide it.
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@Vader
The only thing that doesn't sit right is whiteflame's response to a joke. He pushed a VTL on MisterChris then changed his logic after we called him out, thus changing his view. While Bullish is still pushing it, he isn't pushing a vote on Chris. MisterChris's aggression is weird, but I don't scum read it.
I mean, I guess you can call me out on this, but I read MC's initial post as serious and then re-read it after people drew attention to their perception of it being a joke. I often can't read sarcasm in posts, and I did not initially do so with his post. I didn't change my logic, but it was my goal to understand what he was endeavoring to do, and initially, I thought that was to partially claim and then shift his partial claim. That proved false.
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@Vader
And I said in this DP that I believe mass hunting for claims is idiotic in this game
We're not talking about a mass claim hunt. Getting one or two claims in DP1 is standard practice. You also talk about how important it is to get behavioral suspicions, but as of right now, you're the most suspicious behaviorally from my view (not saying much since there's little to base behavioral suspicions on at the moment, but that's DP1 in a nutshell). I'm not expecting to get a lot of info this DP, and I'm anticipating that there won't be a lynch given the split nature of the voting up to this point unless there's a scumslip to go by. That being said, the endeavor should be to make the most of this DP, and whether that's by getting claims or simply by putting pressure on people and seeing how they respond, it's worth the effort.
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@warren42
There has been nothing to pursue. There was an overreaction to a joke. That's as much info as there will be so farFor the record if Chris flips scum this looks bad for Supa, not sure about if Supa flips scum, I'd say it doesn't look good for Chris but not terrible
Was thinking the same thing. Seems more than a little defensive, and right now, I'm thinking it's worth pushing either Supa or Chris for a claim. Since I have less trouble with Chris at the moment (because I do see that I was just missing the joke when I responded), I'm going to go with Supa.
VTL Supa
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Favorite debate of mine on DDO: https://www.debate.org/debates/TT2-Expert-Final-U.S.-militia-groups-pose-a-greater-threat-to-our-national-security-than-do-FTOs/1/
My favorite debates on DDO. This could be a very long list, but I'll keep it to a top 5 that I can remember/find, in no particular order:
As for DebateArt,
Favorite debate of mine is split between my two debates with bmdrocks21: https://www.debateart.com/debates/765-is-israel-a-good-ally, https://www.debateart.com/debates/1235-firing-squad-is-the-best-form-of-capital-punishment
Favorites in general (again, no particular order):
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@Vader
Not terribly surprising. Doesn't make me scum read him, as this isn't terribly unusual for Bullish.
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@gugigor
Yeah, unfortunately this is a consistent problem with tournaments in general, and it's all the more obvious with live debate tournaments. Still, I think we at least have the opportunity to do some interesting debates, even if it's just with the people who are still around.
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@ILikePie5
Never responded to your #15 (aside from the choices of me and Speed), so I guess I'll do that now.
It's unclear what kinds of roles are at play in this game. There must be some investigator roles, but it's also possible that those only start to be active in later DPs or require other phases to occur. Be nice to get any info from anyone acquired via their roles, but if there was evidence that could be acquired during this DP that would help town, I think we would already have received it.
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@Bullish
Seriously, you seem to be holding onto this pretty hard. I'm the one who started that wagon and I realized my mistake as soon as I logged back on.
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@MisterChris
Well, guess it was a joke. Still watching you, though...
Unvote
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@MisterChris
Unvote
VTL MisterChris
Considering the flip on what your role's about, I'd like to see you claim what you actually are rather than this dancing business you're doing.
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@ILikePie5
Alternatively we can just collectively decide who to ask a claim from - I’d suggest Speed or Whiteflame
Gee, can't imagine why those two names come up.
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Like to get more people talking in here, even if we have little to talk about.
VTL warren
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@Danielle
In my observation, when someone wins a lot (and especially if they are undefeated) they become a target and people almost want to see them lose. I think a slight bias might even arise among voters who are looking to break a streak and "knock someone down a peg." So it's inevitable that the top dog loses eventually, unless of course they noob snipe or avoid tough debates / tough opponents.
Agreed, though you also have at least some people who seek to preserve that record, whether actively or subconsciously. I know I have a little bit of a bias towards greater criticism of my own choices when it comes to voting on debates that could break a long-running record, which isn't fair since I often won't demonstrate that degree of insecurity with a decision that supports a person with such a record. Then again, I'm always pretty self-critical when I'm writing an RFD, so maybe it's not as substantial of a difference as I perceive it to be.
I am in the mood to read (vote) or even participate in a thought provoking debate. Any takers or suggestions?
Hey, I'm always down to debate. Would be great to get more votes on either my live debate with blamonkey or my debate with Undefeatable, if you're up for it. I think both are pretty good.
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@gugigor
Comes with the territory. The more debates you do against more experienced debaters, the more likely it is that you will eventually lose. No debater is so good at such a wide variety of topics that they can hold onto a flawless record forever unless they decide to never debate again after they reach a certain point or just continually noob snipe. Ragnar's open to putting himself out there, as anyone should be, so yes, he will eventually find someone who defeats him.
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This is the dawning... of the Age of Aquarius... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajgeaOt_HTQ
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That was absolutely insane in the end. Speed did an incredible job!
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Well, for what it’s worth, I really was just exhausted of it and didn’t want to keep defending myself. Also, RL stuff (read: wife and family) drew my attention for the majority of the night. No matter whether I was town or scum, I think I would have responded similarly, though I’m realizing that the general tenor of my responses isn’t great. Oh well.
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@Speedrace
Not interested in giving everything away, but the first is jailkeeper.
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Also, since Bullish is posting now, unvote
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Well, I was going to stay off for the night, but I guess I'll have to claim now. I'm Don Young from Alaska’s At Large District. Apparently, he's the longest-serving member of Congress and has joined a wide variety of Congressional committees, so I'm the JOAT.
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@warren42
Well, at least you're here. I'll try to get Bullish back into this, but then I'm taking a break.
Unvote
VTL Bullish
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Alright, for activity, warren42 has easily posted the least in this DP. He also usually has quite a bit to say in his reads, and he clearly knows that the DP is on, so I'd like to know why he's been utterly absent, especially since he was on 3 hours ago and didn't say anything. At least Bullish has sporadically posted, though I'm wary of him as well for not doing his usual of... well, being bullish.
VTL warren for activity.
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@Lunatic
Alright, I can see you're really just trying to provide feedback. I guess I'm taking it a little personally when I should just be doing what I can to improve things. I'll read back through this phase, maybe I just missed relevant information, but for now I'll take a break from posting to do that.
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@Lunatic
YOU have the power the re-rail a wagon wherever you see fit. Be a leader, and steer us back if you think we're on the wrong path.
And we've previously established that I'm shit at doing that. It's one of the major problems with my play. One of these days, that might change. This was not that time.
So in your mind the grand solution is to do nothing and just wait for scum to out themselves?
I don't know how I can clarify this any better than I have. I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying that we don't push for a lynch until we have the information from the NP to give us some guidance. You believe a lot in behavioral tells, and maybe I should as well, but I don't yet, and I like to be able to see how things actually play out before assuming that someone should be lynched.
We set the precedent for inactivity in by being inactive in dp1 of bullishes game. No one taking the charge and leading anything, led others to act the exact same way, it was a problem that persisted the entire game, and we as scum let it happen, because why wouldn't we? I'm not gonna let it happen this time though, and if your town you shouldn't either. If you like no lynches dp1, that's fine. Im indifferent to the outcome of a lynch as long as everyone did their part in the day phase and there is plenty of content to read for investigators to sift to. If you don't lynch by the end of the phase that's fine, but you absolutely shouldn't have reads or have tried to do nothing the phase, and say things like "The whole day phase was bickering" when you could have created an alternative outcome.
Yes, we did set a precedent in that game, and it wasn't good. I contributed to that, as town, and that's a failure on my part. I'm happy to pick up activity in DP2 when we actually have some information to go off of, and frankly, that was the plan. If you don't want to wait for that, then lynch me. I'm honestly just tired of this back and forth, and I'm tired of being defensive. I'm also tired of constantly correcting you when you misquote me, as you've done here as well. If you're unhappy with my play, then that's not going to change because I pointed out why I did it.
I understand that you want to correct for what went so wrong in Bullish's game. I understand that I, like so many others in this game, was part of the problem there. And if you want to punish me for not making changes to my play to improve things, then I guess I'm guilty. Always appreciate the feedback.
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@Lunatic
Again, didn't say nothing happened. I hop on for short periods of time over the course of the day. I provide shit feedback because whenever we start to get into something that looks interesting, it seems to get derailed by a wagon on either Elm or Draft, and whatever consequences spin out from that. Shockingly, I don't want to add to those wagons and make the problem worse because I see them as problematic beyond the scope of this single game. I also don't think there's enough information on anyone else to push for a lynch, and I'm consistently wary of lynching anyone in DP1 for much the same reason. If you think that's lazy, then I guess I can't change your mind, but no, the attitude isn't the reason why town loses games. It's bad in later DPs to not push for a lynch, and I was pretty upset in Bullish's game that we didn't get a lynch in DP2. I think it's also bad in DP1 to push for a lynch with no or next to no information beyond some small behavioral tells. I think that tends to lead to a lot of mislynches.
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Who are they and why aren't you pressuring them then?
Because the only reason I tend to put pressure on people in DP1 is to get information, and at this point, I think we have enough information to be able to interpret what happens in the NP. Until then, I don't think getting more information does anything to further our cause, though it gives scum more known targets.
I wouldn't say all of it's been a pissing match in the slightest. Theres been a few posts here and there that seems intra personal between drafter and elminster, but to say there's nothing to behaviorally read into any of it is absurd. Also all the people posting between. It's willfully lazy to say there's nothing wrong, or that's just a convienent response to justify your lack of significant contribution.
Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I didn't say there's nothing to behaviorally read into the posts that have gone up, but enough of this has been focused on their infighting that I think it's entirely appropriate to call much of this a pissing match, and I think it's a little odd that you can claim this is 17 pages of grade A content that should afford me every opportunity to pick out scum. It's not.
Having played with you in just about every game recently I do not think these are common behaviors. You can and have taken stances on players with much less content than this.
Normally, when I've done that, it's actually sussed me because I tend to jump on and off of lynches, especially in DP1, on the basis of getting more activity or claims. Activity is above average, and we have more than enough claims. I'm not interested in getting more to interpret what happens in the NP. I've said this several times.
I didn't say contradictory, just fence sitting. You could go either way on him, and are generally seeming non plussed about either mislynching or policy lynching him. You'll go with the crowd right? Maybe not what you said, but your not really saying anything so that's the only interpretation I can make.
From your post #417: "I asked for reads yesterday and got a nothing post, and earlier today a contradictory fence sitting post." Yes, you did say contradictory. I started off nonplussed (appreciate your use of that term, btw), but I gave an informed decision nonetheless. I've straight up said on multiple occasions that I don't like lynching in DP1, and this is no different, but I provided reasons why I'd still consider it. I wanted to get other insights before voting because if I did vote, I would be seeking to lynch, something I've never committed to in a DP1 for a reason.
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@Lunatic
I’ve given you my thoughts on the major events of this DP. You can say all you want that it’s plenty of content, but it’s mostly been about infighting. I’d say at least half of this DP has been about Elm and Draft, and I have at least some reason to believe they’re both town. I think you are as well. There are also many who haven’t contributed much, and those who have have largely done so by hopping on and off lynches that others led, or leading a lynch that they never seem to care much about after voting. I don’t begrudge you your willingness to scum read me or anyone else, but I don’t have your willingness to lynch someone with the information we have in this DP. I’m just frustrated that so much of this DP has been anything but productive. You can call 17 pages of posts productive if you want, but so much of this has been either a pissing match or a set of distractions that I’d hesitate to call it that.
But hey, if you want to lynch me, go for it. I’m not particularly interested in addressing behaviors I do commonly and already know aren’t perfect for this game. At this point, any reads I give you will just be read as sus because they came after you pushed me to give them. I didn’t have reads yesterday when you asked for them, so I don’t know why you’re holding that against me. And I don’t know how I could be any clearer about how my posts weren’t contradictory. I clarified several times.
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@Lunatic
Also, hard to get past the fact that you called me out for providing reads under pressure, and now you... want my reads... under pressure? Yep. Nothing odd here.
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@Lunatic
If your busy, just wait to post until you can do more than just defend yourself then. Even now you hopped on just to defend yourself without providing a scum read of your own or any fresh takes on behaviors provided in the day phase.
This is absurd. You're calling me out for not having posted over the last couple of hours, and then you say I should wait to post until I have more information. And, apparently, that information requires me to provide scum reads that I don't have. Sorry, but I'm not going to provide you with a BS response that claims someone has somehow outed themselves as scum over the last couple of hours. I've finally finished reading through, and all I see is a lot of hell being raised over a statement from Pie that was, apparently, misunderstood. Sorry I wasn't here for that. Would've really livened things up.
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@Lunatic
Also, for someone who sees me as often indecisive in DP1, which I absolutely have been here, I'd like to know what makes you think this is any different. Taking independent action and pushing for lynches isn't something I've done in ANY DP1. I don't have solid reads for most of the people here. The only reads I provided so far are those that came from an expanded discussion that I barely got through reading before I was asked to comment in full on. As for figuring out who scum is, I don't think we'll manage that without seeing a NP play out.
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@Lunatic
Dude, I hop off for about 2 hours and suddenly I'm sus? Shockingly, yes, I do have chores to do over the weekend, and yes, this isn't up on my phone during every second of that time. I'm still trying to catch up on this SNAFU with Draft because the last three pages of this are brand new to me. How about you give me a bit to catch up before you accuse me of somehow being sus for having things to do that don't include constantly refreshing this page?
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@Elminster
If Pie is consistently reaching for justifications, then why would I bother concealing mine if I was scum? I feel that my character claim is tied pretty well to my role. Maybe that’s just me.
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@Greyparrot
Look back at my previous posts, I argued that we shouldn’t push any more claims this phase. Be happy to character claim at the start of DP2, but if either you or Elm somehow feel you need more information this phase, then I’d like to know why. Why are 4 full claims, more than we’ve had in any game I’ve played during DP1, not enough for you? Is it because you need more information to pick out the perfect NK?
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@Greyparrot
What is your character?
I think we have more than enough claims (four full claims, if my count is correct) for DP1. Not interested in providing scum with more information before the NP. They have enough targets already, don't need to give them another one.
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@Lunatic
Alright.
The way I see this is that there's little chance that you or Elm are on a scum team with Draft. This kind of infighting wouldn't be happening if that was the actual dynamic. I don't have good reason to believe any of you are scum, either. I find it hard to believe that you'd claim a weak Vig as scum, so I view you as leaning town. I similarly have a hard time believing that Mikal would threaten as he has if he is scum, though that's a tougher call. I view him as largely null.
As for Draft, I'm less certain. I think he's town based on the early claim, but I also think that could easily be a scum ploy to out a power role or two (which he got - wouldn't be surprised if one of the outed roles died during the NP). I still don't think he's scum, though that's largely a behavioral factor in general, since he normally tries to conceal his role up front, but that's just a gut feeling. Meanwhile, I view his actions as largely anti-town. Even if Elm flips scum in the end, this is not unusual behavior for him, and it's frustrating to have Draft lean on something he already knows is a sore spot that will illicit Elm's negative responses. If he is town, then he's ignoring the fact that this kind of behavior does more harm than good and has turned this DP into a mess. I don't know if I'd be willing to vote to lynch him over it within the context of this game alone, but if it means stopping this kind of thing in the future, I'd be willing to do it.
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@Lunatic
I haven't given him an excuse for his current behavior. I'm saying he has reason to be frustrated with not knowing the full state of affairs when it came to your weak Vig role. That doesn't mean, and by now I've repeatedly said this, that it justifies putting his vote back on Elm. I wasn't happy with that choice to begin with, and I made myself very clear in that regard.
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