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@Lunatic
My post 277 was entirely about initial motives, not current ones. In fact, I'm actively saying that there's a problem with his current motives. So, apparently, we agree.
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@Lunatic
...Dude, the entire point of my #277 post was to try to make sense of the back and forth that I could barely make sense of in the moment. If you don't like it, that's fine, but that's what I saw. I can see how this played out for both sides. I can understand why each of you did what you did.
I also can understand why we wouldn't want this infighting to persist, and it looks like it will because neither Draft nor Elm is backing down. I made that clear earlier because, frankly, I'm done with this BS. While I generally don't like threats of forfeiting, I absolutely dislike efforts to tunnel someone in the first DP, especially when the someone that they are tunneling is actively threatening to leave the game. I'm frustrated by it. I see it as actively dividing town. I can understand why he's frustrated with Elm, but that's not an excuse for turning this DP into what it has become, which is largely just an opportunity for them to air grievances at each other. If you think it's scummy to want to end that, then I guess I'm scummy.
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@Lunatic
What do you think about drafter setting up the strengthened vig plan for failure and then literally backing out of it a few posts later? What do you think about his continued tunneling of mikal even though his main worry was mikal throwing, even though mikal has contributed all throughout the day phase?
Didn't even see this post before I started writing. I'm not a fan of this effort from Draft, and I do think it has anti-town utility, but I don't think he's scum. Still, might be a reason to lynch him by itself. I'm willing to consider it, but I'd like to hear from others first.
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Alright, I'm all caught up. I don't have any experience with the Strengthener role, but this strikes me as an odd circumstance because, at least as I read it, the Strengthener effectively nullifies any abilities that would attempt to block, redirect or protect against a given ability. That covers a lot of ground, but if the weak Vig functions as Lunatic says it does, then there's an additional element: just visiting him functionally nullifies his ability. Unless the Strengthener role either nullifies anyone's ability to visit him (it doesn't) or somehow covers for what is essentially a functional role block that doesn't come in the form of a specific role (I guess this is possible, but it would essentially have to nullify an element of the weak Vig, which... is weird), the issue with the weak Vig will persist.
So, how do I look at what happened here behaviorally? While I was myself unclear on what Lunatic meant from the outset, it appears as though he had reason to leave out whatever info he could about the weakness of his Vig role so that mafia couldn't exploit it by just visiting him to prevent the Vig NK. I understand that, though I probably would have done my best to just keep that hidden if it were me, since it's bound to be exploited now. I also understand Draft's frustration, if only because he didn't know about this element and, therefore, didn't know that there was a good chance that the Vig NK wouldn't go through regardless of Strengthening it. He saw the initial compromise as a promise that this NK would happen, and now he's unclear whether that can be upheld. I'm not going to condone efforts to lynch now that that compromise has been, itself, compromised, but at least I can understand where everyone's coming from. Doesn't really help me determine who to lynch, but didn't expect this to work out into an obvious lynch.
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@Greyparrot
Hmmm... wasn't familiar with that one. A bit odd, but it seems to fit his character claim. Unvote
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@Lunatic
Completely understand pursuing the GP claim for that reason, and yes, it sounds like we're on the same page for Speed.
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I'm happy to pursue a full claim from GP, but isn't this starting to get a little much if we also pursue Speed? With GP, we'd be at 4 full claims. At that point, it just seems excessive - we're just giving away free information for scum to use during the NP.
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@Lunatic
I'm already on him for activity, so I'll join for the claim.
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@Elminster
I gave you my whole thought process here, including that I am generally unwilling to lynch anyone in DP1. If you'll recall, Lunatic asked me what random lynch would I consider. I suggested you on the basis that I at least had past performance to go off of, though I preceded that by saying that it was a purely BS reason. I've only ever used my votes to push people in DP1 either to be active or to claim. You're welcome to go back and check. You might also remember that the instances where I've put pressure on you in the past have revealed me as town.
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*sigh* great... this is going to be another one of those games...
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@Elminster
To clarify, I said that, gun to my head, if I had to choose someone now based on clearly random and poor reasoning, I might go with you. Didn’t say I was willing to lynch you - like my past games, I don’t have any interest in a DP1 lynch unless we have far better reason to FoS someone. We don’t, I doubt we will, and I see no reason to lynch you or anyone else at the moment. In fact, the only time I voted to lynch you was to gin up activity, and I removed the vote as soon as you posted.
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@Greyparrot
Unvote
Keeping this rolling to keep up activity:
VTL GP
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@WaterPhoenix
Unvote
Alright, I’ll jump in on Elm for activity.
VTL Elm
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@Lunatic
Yeah, I'm not planning to vote him out on that reasoning alone. He would have to commit some actual anti-town actions this round for me to seek that. So far, he's been fine.
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@Lunatic
Voting to lynch your partner, dude? Cold. Ice cold. I thought we had something.
As for who to randomly (read as: whatever BS reason we can come up with) lynch, always up for removing Elminster based on past anti-town behavior, but not much of a wagon on him right now. For the time being, I'll just try and stimulate activity from the quiet ones.
VTL WaterPhoenix
I know voting for Speed is in vogue, but I'd like to see more from you than just unadulterated agreement with GP.
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@Lunatic
Who is your scum buddy this game
It's you, dude. It's always been you.
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@MisterChris
Oh crap! Uh... I meant that I'm Ben Shapiro!
...
Unvote
...for now...
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@MisterChris
I for one can attest that I'm a town Dem.
Obv scum. VTL MisterChris
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@Vader
I dislike my representative
Wasn't familiar with mine. Imagine that I won't know many of them.
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@drafterman
Yeah... I'm not going to out myself for a chance to be "strengthened." I believe your claim, but all this does is paint a target on your back. Whether you're actively trying to do this for the sake of creating a target for scum or you're doing so with the aim of helping town, anyone who buys into this is actively reducing their odds of surviving the night.
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Hey everyone! So, where's the bunker we all go to in case of sudden insurrection?
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@drafterman
My condolences. It's hard to lose a grandparent in the best of times, even harder when you can't be there.
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@ILikePie5
...Maybe. You can put me down, but I can't promise anything just this second.
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Well, still, well played by scum, esp. Lunatic. Took me a while to suspect you, and you certainly played up your role well. And yeah, Draft, that was incredibly bad luck targeting both scum and missing the person who did the NK both times.
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@Speedrace
Yeah... honestly, inactivity in general really hurt this game. Having to deal with the absence of That1 early on and minimal response from Danielle made too much of what was actually happening in this game incredibly unclear. Not blaming Danielle (probably was IRL stuff), but it's frustrating when that's the way that scum flies under the radar.
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Well... that happened. Figured it was either Speed/Lunatic or Speed/Danielle after Pie flipped town, but clearly speed is not always scum. Just... you know... often enough.
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@MisterChris
#putthemouttopasture #sheepskinwallets #notmyhusbandry
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@Tradesecret
Yeah, you tell them! Those sheep have had this coming for a long time, particularly the black ones. Who do they think they are? Just because they grow wool and starred in Babe alongside a pig who could herd them, they think they own the place. About time someone said it. #muttonnomore #baaramnope
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@Speedrace
You did a very bad job of trying to die
I will admit, she normally does a very good job of that.
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@drafterman
Maf hasn't come forward shouting about how the game is over.
A good sign, though it was pretty clear that Speed is scum.
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@Danielle
Doc would have made sense for weed. Watcher makes some sense for LSD, enough that I'm not finding that terribly odd. And yeah, I suspect cocaine maybe a motivator.
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@Danielle
All good reasoning (though I was also willing to consider lynching That1User - we had no way to know whether it was a mislynch, and I was also on the Pie lynch), but I have too little information on you to make adequate comparisons. I don't think that the lack of attention paid to you up to this point makes you less likely to be scum, but I do think that Luna has done more to expose reasonable suspicions. That doesn't mean I'm willing to eliminate you from my POE, if only because I lack sufficient information to make a call on you.
To clarify, however, I'd probably lynch Lunatic before you.
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@Danielle
It's honestly that I'm relatively null on both of you, while everyone else leans town. I don't see either of you acting particularly sus, but I also don't see any reason to set either of you into my town pile.
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@Danielle
Well, I believe you just hammered, so a bit late to unvote.
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@Danielle
Any objections?
None to lynching Speed.
Your claim makes sense, though it'd be easy enough to fake claim Oracle in general, let alone at this stage. As for who Speed's scum partner is, I think it's almost certainly not Draft, since he RB'd him in the last NP. I also don't think there's much chance that it's warren, but that's more of a lean. I agree that it certainly could be Luna, hence I read him as null in the last DP. Right now, I'm almost equally sus of both you and Luna.
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@Danielle
Dani please full claim. We’re at MYLO and you’re the only person who hasn’t.
+1
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@Undefeatable
We are all Sum1hugme... on the inside... and the outside... dude has so many alt accounts, he's practically running this site.
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@Lunatic
Alright, guess that makes sense, though it would be an odd choice for a scum role to give out gifts that grant roles to others, and especially to target town-leaning players early.
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Also, yes, I would like a full claim from Dani before hammering, but I have little doubt that Speed should be lynched this DP.
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@Lunatic
I find it interesting that everyone is so willing to dismiss the potential for this to be like dani/whiteflame or something
So, let me get this straight: I was NK’d, came back as Supa, who straight up declared his role, that role has been confirmed by 3 other people who each received different items, and I could still be mafia? I mean, wow, Supa would have had to do something insane for that to work.
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In other news, I gave Draft cocaine. I figured there was little chance that he was scum, and based on this RB appearing to have stopped the NK, that trust seems to have been well-placed.
So... we lynching Speed now?
VTL Speed
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@gugigor
Good ones tend to be focused on what effects harms and benefits to various sectors have and why that matters, mediocre ones tend to focus on numbers and whose are the biggest. I like them generally because they usually have pretty concrete impacts, though the good ones often go over my head. Mainly, people just need to make sure that they’re focused on why an economic impact matters, which is too often ignored.
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@Lunatic
If we lynch pie, you want me to over turn it or nah?
I wouldn't unless something comes up that makes someone more suspicious. I do see you as leaning town, so I'll leave it to you to determine if there is someone else more worthy of the lynch and make the call. It would confirm you, but at the moment, I don't think it's more beneficial to do that than to just pursue the lynch.
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@Lunatic
Tougher call. I'm unsure about Draft, but I have a hard time disbelieving his claim as much as other people have stated, so for me, it's between Speed and Pie. I agree with warren that the NK had to be between the two of them, and since neither of them have behaved scummily, I'm making my decision based on their role claims. Much as the vanilla claim is impossible to verify (and based on previous games, Speed would claim vanilla as scum), Pie's claim comes off as the oddest. The 2X rolestealer just seems incredibly arbitrary in terms of numbers of uses. His choice of targets is very convenient as well. I think it makes sense as a way to avoid attention since it seems like a ballsy claim at first glance, but the number of factors that make me doubt it are greater than those for Speed. It could also be both of them, but for now, Pie seems like the more likely of the two to be scum.
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@Lunatic
VTL danielle for a claim.
I'll join this. VTL Danielle.
At this point, we at least have narrowed the window of possible scum, but more info before we pursue the lynch makes sense. Hopefully this time, we can actually get a lynch off.
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@Speedrace
1. drafterman - roleblocker2. Danielle - hard town3. whiteflame (rep SupaDudz) - hard town4. ILikePie5 - 2x rolestealer5. Speedrace - vanilla - obv town6. Lunatic - 1x governor - lean town7. warren42 - tracker - lean townSo that leaves Pie and drafter, which also means one of my reads is off.Pie throwing in that 2x at the last minute is REALLY suspicious
Generally agree, though I'm null on Luna and you atm.
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@Lunatic
I pressured Draft pretty hard early on. Everyone else was pretty light, though my vote was on Pie at the end of the DP.
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As for who killed me, I have little clue. I was an odd choice of targets, given my likely role, at least this early on.
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