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Fine, I'll get this party started by revealing my character, which doesn't do a lot to reveal my role anyway, because it's at least a little vague. I'm Disturbing the Peace, so I use a public forum to make a scene and/or inconvenience others. Feel free to guess at my role, you probably won't get it.
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@Speedrace
Also, best of luck at the tournament. Be interested to hear how it went.
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@Speedrace
I do have a justification, though it’s not terribly involved.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
@warren42
@That1User
@Speedrace
Oh wait, nvm, we learned recently your scum tell is playing passively and being non-committal... Hmm... I guess you can be town for now.
Lol.
Also, gonna tag a bunch of other people to get them engaged (hopefully).
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@Lunatic
Fuck
You
Lunatic.
Damn, that’s only 3 words, but they’re spaced like paragraphs. Think I’ll just have to take an incomplete on this assignment.
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Well, if there is a pause anyway, I might as well join this thing, since that is all I wanted before I rejoined.
/in
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@Intelligence_06
Based on who he’s faced so far, I’d say that that hasn’t been Undefeatable’s goal. Theweakeredge and MisterChris are both talented debaters in their own rights, and each of those debates is HoF worthy. It’s impressive to see someone step up to the plate and take on difficult opponents on challenging topics. Undefeatable wants to prove himself, not just to win. That’s admirable.
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@seldiora
I'm excited to see who will win this intense debate. Rumors say it's Whiteflame's longest RFD on DART so far...
Can confirm, longest I've done, possibly longest even including DDO, though Bladerunner would probably still have the longest of all time. Man was a machine.
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I'm a big fan of Trading Places and Nightmare Before Christmas, though calling them Christmas movies is at least somewhat uncertain.
The Muppets' version of A Chistmas Carol is the best version, and that would rate high for me.
But I'll make a recommendation based on something new I've seen this year that I absolutely loved. Klaus is a great animated movie and it deserves a wider audience. Seriously, go watch it, it's on Netflix.
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@Lunatic
I did enjoy the poem. So bad it's good.
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Lol, love it. Merry Christmas!
And yes, the Jews make up a small but mighty contingent!
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@LikeMagic
Yeah, I can definitely see some room for arguing that the ending could have better utilized what it had built upon throughout. I like that he was able to find his spark again, but it's only a matter of time until he's in the same rut.
It's hard to classify it as a Christmas or Halloween movie, exclusively. It definitely has pieces of both, but I'd say it leans into the latter more than the former. As for what it is, I'd just say it's a lot of fun and leave it at that.
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@LikeMagic
One of my personal favorite stop motion films, love the music.
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Generally have little interest in wading into this again, but I will say straight up that I think Magic had good reads based on substantive behavioral information. The problem, as I see it, is that that information applies just as well to games where I've been town. However, that might just be a misperception of my normal play, though a lot of people seem to agree that it is my normal. Maybe Magic is picking up on subtler cues and I do behave differently when I'm on a scum team. That would be enlightening for me, though I'm not yet convinced that I did anything that substantially deviated from my normal play, at least in DP1. Others did call me out on it, but it was mainly Magic, Bullish (who also doesn't have experience with me in forum play), and That1User. That1 is an outlier here, as she is the only one who has had experience with me who also read me as anti-town (mainly as TP), though whether that's the result of bandwagoning (I admit to doing it as well, and That1 does it a lot) or hypersensitivity after the game where Danielle and I were town is a different story.
Nonetheless, I fully admit that I could be wrong. Will be happy to get psychological intel on myself if that's the case.
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@ILikePie5
@Speedrace
I know, you'll both miss me in this game terribly. Hate to disappoint, but I'll catch the next one.
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Been through enough games back to back that I think I’ll sit this one out.
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@LikeMagic
Fine. You don't want to accept that the play I exhibited in this game is my normal play? That it's common for me to play this way as town? Guess that's up to you. I suspect we'll be at this point again in the next game we play together, and I suspect I'll be town then. Yes, being scum affects the way lots of people play. Maybe it affected mine, but clearly not so much that other people who have played with me many times noticed.
So, let's part ways with just saying that you figured something out that no one else saw. You brilliantly saw through something that I still don't think I was doing any different from my normal play. Either I'm scummy all the time, or I just can't read myself. You win.
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@drafterman
I wasn't paying full attention during that time, but when I saw what happened, I honestly was surprised I wasn't lynched.
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Anyway, I've already focused far too much on this and, as I result, I won't get through writing the RFD I had planned to finish tonight as is, so I'm just going to cut my losses and call it a night. Magic, you made the right calls, even if we disagree on the reasoning, so well done there. Feel free to heap more criticism of my usual play out there. Usually it comes from a place of being more constructive than this, but I always appreciate feedback.
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@LikeMagic
I don't think I did flip flop on my position, and I explained that my position was to get a claim, not a lynch. You didn't accept that, but it doesn't make what I said a flip flop. Readily backing down is, and I mean this seriously, awfully common in my play. It's not something I'm proud of. I've also been pushed into posting a lot. Again, not something I'm proud of. As for logical inconsistencies, that's basically the majority of posts I've seen nailing someone as obviously town or obviously scum, especially in DP1. They're all based on pulling at straws, and yes, in many cases inconsistent with what that same person said earlier. I was not alone in logical inconsistencies.
And yes, I did find it problematic that you were using the fact that I was away and had other things to do as yet another reason to scum read me. I'm sorry that I wasn't on to respond to you at 9 PM. It's fucking frustrating to have someone proclaiming that I'm somehow more guilty for having other things to do. You can say that it's just the cherry on top, but seriously, it was a bit much. And yes, I used the rest of my post to give my reads, weak and uninteresting though they are. Surprise, surprise, I'm still rather new to this, and don't produce the best reads early on.
My blanket response to many of your bases for scum reading me was the same: this is how I play. You didn't want to accept that as an answer from me, Speed, Lunatic, or MisterChris, but that was the answer I gave. If I had been town in this game, I would have given you the same answer. You want to call it scummy? Fine, then I'd be scummy no matter what side I was on. If I had been town this game, you would have had the same amount of reason to lynch me because I would have behaved exactly the same through all of DP1 and most of DP2. You have 4 people telling you this. If you don't want to accept that at this stage, then I guess I should just expect for you to have a lynch called on me every game we play together. That's bound to be fun.
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@LikeMagic
And I'll say this: that's my normal play, too. In DP1, I tend to shift around a lot. I've jumped from vote to vote and given reads without backing them up with votes before. It's not terribly unusual for me, and while that might seem scummy to you (and I could understand how it does), it's not any kind of stand-out performance from other games where I have behaved the same way as town. Didn't say I was a good player, not claiming to be doing this well, just saying that my normal poor behaviors aren't scum tells. They're just me mucking about.
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@Lunatic
I genuinely think tunneling him for the logic she did, made it ultimately harder to read whiteflame, since at that point he had to dedicate all his time to responding to analysis about his meta consistencies with someone who hasn't played in a single game with him lol. I think magic's tunnel vision on whiteflame actually made it HARDER to read whiteflame by proxy since we weren't analyzing natural responses and gameplay.
I'm right there with you here, especially after she stopped responding to my posts. If anything, I tend to reveal more when I'm asked to provide inferences on the game and put myself out there more. That tends to lead to at least some subset of players scum reading me, and even when that's inaccurate, at least it's based on some shift in behavior. Pushing a narrative that basically says "your normal play is scummy" just does more to prevent me from showing anything I'm doing differently.
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@MisterChris
Yep, and after I got outed, I panicked, as Lunatic said. Not my best play, but hey, we won that game.
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@Danielle
Regarding whiteflame's play, I see both sides. Magic was 100% correct the way she assessed his play. However it's true that whiteflame tends to play that way most times. Just because he plays that way as town (so ya'll are right) doesn't mean it isn't scummy (so she is right).
This is entirely accurate. I'm not professing to be a good player, and my play often leads to people being suspicious of me out the gate. It's something I'm still working on, and I don't think I've got the right balance at all yet. Magic, if you see it as sus, you're not alone, but you're also wrong that it was uniquely suspicious when it's absurdly common to my play. It's my meta, and whether it works or doesn't, it's what I use in every game.
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@MisterChris
Appreciate that. Would say that Pie and Draft did more to make this happen, but glad I could be part of it. First time on a scum team (only been a Lone Wolf and a Mime before) and I enjoyed it.
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@LikeMagic
Seriously, look back at my previous games. There's a reason that Speed, Lunatic and MisterChris were all saying this is normal for me. You can call it scummy, but it's my normal play.
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For what it's worth, up through DP1, I would have behaved almost exactly the same if I was town. Much as Magic kept calling me out for it, that's just me, and many of you know that, so much as she was right, I wouldn't say I did anything clearly scummy in DP1. Could've seen you guys pushing a lynch in DP2, though I don't think I did anything to give myself away before the lynch on WP. Magic definitely had the right calls, but how she got there is a different story.
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I think it's pretty obvious at this point. No reason to drag this out with a clear CC on both the role and the supposed results of the role.
VTL Water
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Well, I guess Supa either visited scum or was killed by Speed. Glad to see a Hanukkah (technically just Jewish, but I'll take it)-themed character in the mix. Called it.
And of course, there's the inevitable VTL from Magic. Yes, because I had every reason to kill Speed, right? Not like he was making the case for me in the last DP or anything. Clearly, no one else on your list could have any greater likelihood of being scum. If you're so sure, then give us the other names.
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@oromagi
Anybody else want to weigh in on characters? Are we mostly movie and TV characters are there other seasonal aspects?
That was what I thought was going on here, though I'd include book characters as a plausible addition, given that Cindy Lou Who appeared in the book first (at least from what I'm reading - could be wrong).
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Just noticed the Elf on the Shelf claim. A little wonky, especially given that the tracker role is a strange fit. Plausible, but not obvious.
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@drafterman
FYI: I wasn't TP last game, I was Mafia.
Ah, my bad. I misread the flips for the Endgame, though it said you were a TP with DP3 Deathproof, but now I see that it didn't say whether you won with mafia. Must've been left out.
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Going to finally eat lunch and catch up on this while I'm at it. Happy to say that my experiment's working today, thought that might be more of a struggle.
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@LikeMagic
It's generally pretty rich coming from you to take the stance that, because my job gets busy for a few hours, that I'm somehow lying low and avoiding addressing the claims you're making. It's especially rich when you haven't addressed the last two posts I've made in response to you. If your goal is to ignore what I'm saying and pretend that that somehow justifies your reads of me, mission accomplished!
Let's just ignore the fact that I've been working on an RFD for a long debate on this site, a point that both Speedrace and MisterChris are privy to because I lost a great deal of that RFD last night and commiserated with them about it. Let's just ignore that I'm still relatively new to my position at a job I took on about a month ago, and am still working on moving into my apartment. Clearly, my lack of dedication to this mafia game in the face of all this is a massive scum tell. It's apparently also a scum tell for me to push for a claim and then back off before someone was needlessly lynched, despite being entirely consistent with my behavior in every other game. Also, apparently introspection is scummy. Surprised you haven't jumped on anyone else for that.
As for my reads, as per usual, I don't feel confident on any of them, hence my persistence on the VTNL. However, I'll give my takes.
01 Speedrace - reads slight town to me behaviorally
03 Supa - the non-CC'd Santa claim has me thinking he's town. The focus on questions regarding the specific identity of his Santa gave me a stronger inkling as to the theme, and I'm not convinced that there aren't other, distinct Santa claims in the game.
04 Lunatic - reads slight town as well, behaviorally
05 oromagi - obviously town
06 drafterman - null. Had a bad experience with trying to push him in the last game when he was TP, and he seems a bit obstinate again, but that's not unusual for draft, so I'm withholding judgement.
07 that1user - null, though perhaps a bit too focused on the TP angle. I was one of the Mimes with Danielle in the game she's referenced, and I can understand being a little sus of that, so I don't blame her for considering that.
08 Pie - reads slight town on behavior. Haven't seen anything strongly convincing yet, and I've been fooled by Pie before, but his analysis has been pretty good so far.
09 LikeMagic - the tunneling isn't helping with my behavioral analysis of you, though from what I've been hearing, this isn't a first. The Hated claim balances out my concerns and makes me see you as null, but my lack of experience playing with you is probably not helping on that front.
10 Bullish - early tunneling and aggression from him isn't terribly surprising, given games we've done on discord, but my experience with him has usually not been this strange. He usually stays quieter when he's scum, but that's only been on Discord, and I suspect his play is a little different in forum games. I'm seeing him as slightly sus behaviorally, though I don't think that WP and Bullish are a scum team. It's probably one or the other.
11 WaterPhoenix - the stronger of my scum reads up to this point, though I'm always concerned about reading too deep into what WP says. It always feels like I'm attributing far more subterfuge to his actions, and that may be the case here. That being said, the business surrounding the innocent child and his understanding of the role doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and while that misunderstanding isn't itself scummy, some of his responses haven't helped his case.
12 MisterChris - null. Can't say much about him yet, but he's playing like normal up to this point.
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@LikeMagic
Look, if you want to call me out for not responding to a series of posts that do nothing to address the last response I gave you (I gave you two, you ignored the second), then go ahead. I don't feel much need to be goaded into anything by someone who has never played with me before and doesn't believe other people who tell her that this is my normal play. You want to see me as scum? Have at it.
By the by, I just caught up with all this and I'm working on a rather extensive RFD for the debate between MisterChris and Undefeatable, for which I've already stayed up much too late. Going to write down my last thoughts and call it a night. So if you want to call my going to bed a scum tell, too, feel free. It'd make about as much sense as the rest.
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@LikeMagic
So, my behavior somehow only makes sense if I'm mafia?
Please, feel free to go back and read any of the previous games I've played on the site, or ask anyone here who has been in games with me before. You'll find that their experience has been pretty similar to this one: I don't tend to get too involved in DP1, and where I do, I tend to follow others' leads. My behavior, and again you can ask anyone this, is ALWAYS introspective. I'm rather self-conscious about my playstyle regardless of the game I'm in, so thank you for pointing that out. Really appreciate leaning on that insecurity.
And great, so you'd rather lynch me on the basis of a behavioral tell that a majority of the people here could tell you is entirely normal for me than seek a claim. Guess you know best, despite not being able to convince anyone else that your behavioral tell is anything different than my normal. You talk about other people wasting time, but this is just absurd.
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@LikeMagic
I really don't get this. What part of my behavior is unclear? In no previous game have I ever sought to lynch someone in DP1. That was a given in this game as well. The only thing I wanted out of this DP was information. I pushed for it and got it, so I felt no need to continue putting on pressure and try to get a lynch off. It was never my aim to pursue a lynch, and as you said and I agreed, I don't want to reveal so many roles that we end up giving mafia way too much information to work with. If you somehow see that as inconsistent, then you're welcome to rally others around the cause and push for me to claim. You were the one who said that it was dangerous to give them too much information this early, but hey, don't let me stop you from being inconsistent yourself.
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@LikeMagic
I'm in perfect agreement. I think we have enough information, and that seeking more at this stage would be overzealous and could provide too much information to mafia. To some extent, I understand the efforts to push other people to act and respond to issues perceived in their analysis, but I would not seek another character or role claim, and thus,
VTNL
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@LikeMagic
I have reason to suspect everyone, so it was a matter of whoever was getting pushed because, as I learned the hard way in a couple of the previous games, playing passively gets us nowhere and trying to push a lynch that no one's going to join doesn't accomplish anything. That being said, Speed would usually be my choice as well. Too much experience with him as scum.
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@Speedrace
Not usually the biggest fan of economics topics, but this one looks good to me. I'd be up for it.
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@Username
I'd say that what's sad about it has more to do with failing to recognize good speaking style alongside good content. Too little of debate these days is focused on how well someone performs, and while I agree that focusing too much on performance art is a problem, I'd say that the balance of content and performance is something that should be prized. I think we lose something when debate becomes too technical and too fast for most audiences to process. It may be inevitable for many, but I don't think that it should be.
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@Bullish
why did u answer for Lunatic. How would u know his reasoning.
Because I read the back and forth and gave my interpretation of what was going on, though I did not profess to know his reasoning. I simply said that Danielle mentioned it first, and Lunatic's questions were actually aimed at determining what her statement covered. I generally like to set the record straight where I can because I don't like to let an accusation fester. Feel free to look back at previous Mafia games, I do this all the time.
Why would u ask if speed softclaimed? If he wanted town to know he softclaimed he'd tell us. Otherwise you're either 1) letting mafia know Speed softclaimed, or 2) ur sucm trying to fish for a claim with no pressure.
I didn't ask if he softclaimed. I said that I was uncertain whether he did or not. Both of those scenarios are absurd. If I was scum, why would I seek to let mafia know that Speed did this in open chat instead of in the mafia chat? Also, that's a pretty poor performance if I'm fishing for a claim from Speed. Not sure how you thought I would somehow get him to claim by implying that he might have already softclaimed, but that seems like awfully weak reasoning. I was trying to generate a list of all claims on the table at that time. Speed corrected me, noting that he was joking instead of softclaiming. I accepted that and moved on. I don't understand why you are reading into something that just displays my ignorance, but nice tunneling.
would ur wife approve
She would probably be fine as long as we're careful and eat outside. She's more nervous about the pandemic than I am, but she still takes risks.
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@Bullish
Not sure what words sound sus, but you do you.
Haven't gotten food with Mikal yet. In general, haven't done a lot of traveling recently (partly due to COVID concerns and partly due to still working on setting things up in the new apartment), though I still mean to get out there one of these days.
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@Vader
I don’t base it on anything you’ve said, just on the pursuit of information. I’ve learned from previous games that we stand to lose a lot by limiting available information because we’re simply to nervous or uninterested in getting a claim for whatever reason. Call it overcompensation in the other direction, but my experience with Draft in your game is a large part of the reason I’m doing this. Will be happy to pursue a claim from him later for the same reason, but for now,
Unvote
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@Speedrace
Alright, figured it might just be a joke, but I'm scrutinizing everything.
I think at least a partial claim would provide some information to go off of for the next DP. Doubt we'll be lynching anyone in DP1, but I see some value in being able to better interpret whatever happens during NP1.
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So, just to summarize what we have so far:
Oromagi: Cindy Lou Who - Innocent Child
LikeMagic: ??? - Hated
Might also be a soft claim from Speed, but I'm unclear on that one.
I'm in agreement with Draft on this one. Don't think that getting rid of someone just because they claim Hated makes a whole lot of sense, especially at this stage. Have seen Hated scum before, so that is very much a possibility, but I don't have any behavioral reads on Magic yet.
Since I'm all for getting more information this phase, I'll throw in on the effort to get Supa to claim.
VTL Supa
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@Vader
Just curious about why you are asking about tailors and stuff in game? Asking because there was no implication of anything and it seemed kinda weird it was the first thing you said. Just curious though
The absence of tailors in this game was first mentioned by Danielle in her opening post. Lunatic just sought to clarify what she meant.
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@MisterChris
I can do the 24th, but it would have to be by 6 PM EST at the earliest.
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