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@That2User
The myth is so well known I did not feel the need to mention it, it's implicit knowledge. I was thinking of the movie the whole time too.
So... the myth is implicit knowledge... but the execution itself isn't? Why report the latter, but not the former?
execution, i intended to be vague
So... this was an attempt to be vague?
Not sure what's vague about that. It's vague who you were talking about since, at least at this point, you hadn't mentioned the October Revolution or the resulting civil war, but I don't know what's vague about the how here. Execution and assassination aren't exactly far apart and, if anything, the latter term is a little more specific since it implies a political target, whereas execution could be anyone.
my death and the myth i survived plays into my role, i am so popular i am the beloved princess, if i die the next day is skipped
I do buy this role claim at least. It makes sense for the character. Still thinking on this.
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@That2User
assassination, execution, murder, shot to death, all these things describe my death, i am anastasia
First off, I really just don't like how you gave away so much information about your character instead of just responding to the request for a softclaim. I'm thinking its more anti-town than scummy, but when someone suggests a mass softclaim like this, unless you have very good reason to give more information (in which case, you should have given it before such a request was made, since you posted prior to that), you should respond directly to the suggestion and only give that information. That's true whether you're scum or town because giving TMI doesn't make a whole lot of sense in this situation. It's not hard to look up the dates and see where they align.
Second, you're talking about Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna, right? This is one of those few examples of Russian history that I actually know because I loved the animated film Anastasia and got engrossed in reading about the actual accounts of the person behind the character. It's frustrating that your accounting of her death doesn't mention the false reports of her survival, which are one of the main reasons she's such a well-known person in Russian history. There was a popular myth that she survived, that's the basis for the movie. I accept that it lists her as "shot to death," even though there is some disagreement over the how of her death based on how different guards say they perceived it.
So... yeah, going to need some time to think about this claim. It's one thing to give away more information than is requested of you, it's another to still be coy about your character when you're dramatically limiting the options of your own volition, it's quite another still to then claim and leave a gaping hole in the information you're providing. I'm tempted to get your role as well.
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@Vader
Are you a part of the Soviet Union history or from Russia history (anything before Soviet Formation and after the fall of the Soviet Union (so 1917-1991))???
I'd say that's a pretty fair means of softing.
My character falls into the history of the Soviet Union.
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Since this was in a broader context to start, but has since become more focused on individual users, I’m not going to delete the thread, but I will direct everyone here to avoid arguments that target specific users. You do not need to call out individual behavior to make your points about what should and shouldn’t be allowed on the site. You can call out what you perceive as a problem in a type of argument or how it’s presented, and people are welcome to discuss whether moderators should or shouldn’t take a given action, just keep it distinct from a callout.
Apart from that, there are clearly some charged issues bleeding into this discussion, but please try to keep it civil.
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Yeah, weak townreads on both Savant and Banana at this point, the former because he essentially gave up his character claim while trying to give a soft claim, and the latter because I don't think she'd try this as scum, at least not based on my experience on a scum team with her. That was admittedly a while back, but this still seems unlikely for her.
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Yeah… I’m not doing the hints thing without good reason this game.
Anyway, checking in. At my wife’s concert this afternoon, but I’ll be around for much of the day. Russian history isn’t my strong suit despite half of my family hailing from there. I’ll try to keep up.
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@Sir.Lancelot
I appreciate that Lancelot. Glad I've been a good influence!
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Don't think I can dedicate the time, happy to have Savant take up the mantle.
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@Barney
Happy birthday! But as a reminder, the warranty on those cloned bodies expires at 40, so you may want to switch to a newer model.
Was thinking about that, this one does seem to be falling apart on me.
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@Sir.Lancelot
I can validate the above. Turn 39 today. Thank you Lancelot!
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*sigh* Family Seder cancelled due to COVID (thankfully not the sick one myself). Still appreciate the delay to Sunday and look forward to starting the game then.
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/in, would prefer a start date of Sunday or later (Passover starts Friday, birthday same day, driving down to see family over the next couple of days)
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So the usual Mafia Championship is coming up. Gotta decide on someone to join to represent us. Info is here:
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@Vader
One other thing to bear in mind. The way this is written:
Because of this, you are the Godfather. You appear as Town to ALL investigative roles. You win with Mafia.
suggests the existence of multiple town alignment-investigating roles. I think your aim was to state that it affects a variety of roles, but when you say "ALL investigative roles," that suggests that it affects different roles that are present in this game. I think that's part of the reason Casey saw his flip as demonstrative of the existence of a Cop.
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@Earth
@Vader
@That2User
See above, do I have that right?
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I think I might get it.
Earth asked if you got a multi-shot of your role NP1. Vader told him he didn't. Earth took that as his role failing somehow, but his role only grants the extra shot the next NP, so he asked the wrong question.
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@Bullish
If that2 gets lynch anyway I would have NK'd earth. Then casey would have to choose to lynch between me and wylted. Casey said wylted was still in their PoE.
That’s right, WyIted would still have been alive. Possible, then. Not sure if you had another shot of your Strongman, but WyIted could have protected Earth. Then you’d have been fucked.
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@Lunatic
The vote train on moozer happened pretty fast, I was pressuring earth at the time, but why vote if its not needed lol. But still odd considering I had probably the best case against moozer pointing out that he didn't make sense as vanilla, I had written a pretty large post about it too. Definitely didn't feel like I was acting unsure on that one.
I’ll admit my reason for sussing you was weak and it sounds like it wasn’t accurate, but again, didn’t have a lot to go on for anyone. Bullish or Earth were my other considerations, so 66% chance of hitting scum if I chose randomly anyway.
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@Bullish
Do yall think I would have won if wylted didn't die
I don’t see how. If you kept Casey alive, you’d have to convince whoever else was left that the Dreamer result they got was fake. If you killed Casey, the flip would have put you right in the crosshairs.
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@Lunatic
To be clear, you said you tracked me because I posted mostly null reads on page 4 of dp1? I mean I clearly stated that the reads weren't going to be fleshed out at that point. 4 pages in... Yeah I would have done the exact same thing as town. And something about me waffling on moozer? I was fully ready to lynch moozer, he got hammered before it was neccesary. I just think those are very "I could have just as easily been town there reasons".
Those reads were a minor element. I thought it was possible that you were just that unsure. Moozer was the bigger issue, since you said you were willing to vote him, but waited in the wings to do so. I didn’t get the impression that you were just coming in late to it, though that may have been true. To be clear, though, I’d just thrown out most of my logical reads when Moozer flipped town and I didn’t have good reason to sus anyone who had voted him, so picking the person who said they were onboard and made me question him at all made the most sense to me.
Regardless, I opted to use the ninja that night, but had an argument with bullish who thought the strongman was a better use because "rIsK vS rEwArD". You know me, I am all for taking risks, but I still don't understand what the reward was there. I am not used to coming at odds with mafia partner on decisions, and bullish is very strong willed so I just caved and let him direct the night actions, but for the record, I argued that we should ninja np1 which makes the fact that I got caught on results even more frustrating.
Too bad, man. That would’ve given you a lot of cover, shame you didn’t go with it.
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@Lunatic
Idk how lucky it is to have a godfather role that literally protects against nothing, just to get tracked np1 cuz we can only use a strongman or a ninja against two protective roles and two investigative roles, with no roleblocker. Imagine getting caught when your in most people's town piles dp1 on results? Would either have been protected against, confirming town players, or caught on results. Wasted hours of time researching this theme just to be caught in the gayest way possible. Some bastard modding and poor town decisions resulted in the town loss here, but this heavily favored town.
The balance was clearly problematic, but damn man, there’s so much that does not make sense from what played out.
Also, yeah, it was a gutread that got you this time. Just had an inkling something was up.
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@Casey_Risk
WTF. I never would have believed that.
I couldn’t believe it!
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@Earth
How did the double nightkill happen then?
Strongman gone wrong I’m guessing. Both prevented your Doc from being effective and killed the BG. Bullshit.
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Put you guys at MYLO, which is the only reason that lynching That2 ended the game.
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Yeah… some fucked up elements all over this game. Fwiw, I targeted Bullish NP2, so his killing me was a must, just shouldn’t have ended WyIted as well.
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@Bullish
I was thinking casey could be mafia, but then it was revealed that that2 was motivated, which is the only explanation for the double NK.
Makes no sense at all.
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@Earth
I would be pissed of That2 received an action NP1 because that is contrary to what Vader told me.
Goddamn, lot of problems this game. The double kill on me and WyIted and that Luna flip wording as well.
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I think there were valid reasons to sus That2 based on how that flip is written in particular, but you had plenty of time to sort this out. Barely even any consideration of what could have happened.
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@Owen_T
I'll give this some thought, but a personal favorite resource that helped me in formal debate was this book by John Meany, a debate coach at Clarmont McKenna College. It's a very good breakdown of tactics in Parliamentary Debate, which should be broadly applicable.
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As for who could be his partner (noting now: Luna was online less than 20 minutes ago), based on Casey's result, we'd be down to three options. I'm good with waiting until next DP to interrogate those more. I don't think anyone in that group is a given to be town, but as I said before, I was townreading all of them going into this DP.
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@Bullish
Bruh I claimed cop after 1 person claimed vanilla, supa doesn't give fake claims afaik so how am I scum
I’m not convinced on you one way or another, but I will note this from the OP:
Mafia were not given fake claims but were given a hint about what to not claim. Mafia were also given a hint on a role that does not and does exist in this game
So, yes, like in my game, scum could have been informed that a Cop was not in this game.
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@Lunatic
Fine, I’ll just claim.
I’m Christopher Moltisanti. I’m Tony’s protégé. The PM mentions my paranoia, desire to prove myself, and stay ahead of threats. I am a dangerous observer and have discovered a connection between Adriana and the FBI.
So yeah, I’m the Tracker. I picked Luna because I decided to throw out my reads after Moozer flipped town and went with a gut read based on Luna’s decision to both hover around the lynch and his reads containing so many null views of players, which felt excessive for him.
He visited Pie. Going to need an explanation for that one.
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Alright then, sounds like we have good reason to believe Casey’s claim.
I think something strange is going on because I don’t believe there would be this many investigative roles. I’ll say straight up that I am also investigative, if not associated with alignment. I guess scum could have a lot of means to circumvent investigation, so it’s not a given.
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@Bullish
bro if u saw some1 visit pie we just lynch them, double especially if it's that2
I'll reveal what I know and how I know it before I call it a night, whether I get responses or not.
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@Earth
Can That2 fullclaim instead? Not that I trust you in particular.
I’m fine doing it as well. I understand having That2 full claim given Casey’s Dreamer result, though to be clear, I still have good reason to believe they’re town. I’m a little hesitant to buy Casey’s claim right now, partly because I agree with them that all 3 players are ones I was townreading by the end of the DP, and partly because it’s weird to have a Cop and a Dreamer in the same game. Still think there’s value in getting it.
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So, clearly, several of us made the wrong call on Moozer. As one of those who called him out early for the Vanilla claim, I probably should have heard him out further, but I would almost certainly have sussed him enough to push for his lynch at some point.
I’m willing to full claim, but before I do, I need clarification: does anyone want to state now that they visited Pie and why?
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Guess that’s the hammer. Nice to have another site mod in the driver’s seat on this one, always feels like I need to be on alert to close these down ASAP after the DP’s closed by forum post.
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@That2User
Paulie Gualtieri
Nope, that’s not my character.
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@That2User
whiteflame may be mafia if he is who i think he is...
won’t pretend to know who you’re thinking of, but if Moozer flips town, I’ll full claim at the start of next DP and we’ll work through this.
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@ILikePie5
Does this read like an edited Godfather PM to anyone else? I would 100% expect a Godfather in this game
I won’t pretend to know what he modified his claim from, but it still stands out as sus and his responses aren’t doing him any favors. Seeing a lot of dismissiveness combined with the “let’s just lynch inactives, they’re useless anyway” responses even after I started being more active. He has a narrative that he’s sticking to regardless of what we say, and it’s starting to come off desperate. I had him as my pick already, so I’ll just make it official:
VTL Moozer
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@Earth
I don’t see much reason to seek a full claim based on that. I have little reason to believe that the wife of the MC is going to be scum or that scum would be given her as a fake claim.
If enough people want, I can give my character as well, but I’m still struggling to see the reason I’m being sussed beyond PoE. If it helps figure this DP out, though, I’ll do it given that time is running down.
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@Moozer325
I town read WyIted for his usual behavior. I could see a Luna scum but it’s not likely based on what we have so far. At the time though, I wasn’t paying much attention to Luna so he could have been scum for all I know. I agree that with the others that you’re a good pressure along with Earth, so you might have been scum for all I knew. Of all of them Pie put me at L-1 for little reason, so he’s the one I scumread most on the wagon. I was going more in likelihood that actual reads though since DP1 reads are so flimsy.
So you're fine with the pressure on Earth and me for... what reason exactly? Lack of activity? PoE? It's unclear from this. As for the reasoning for why you're sussing Pie, I'd like something more than just him voting you last with "little reason" as a basis for scumreading him.
Really though, I wasn’t too interested in who on that wagon specifically was scum, it’s just the idea of claiming at L-2 for no good reason that I was adverse too. If mafia can quickly grab 1-2 people and go hunting claims while nobody else is watching, then we’re just setting them up for easy fake-claims.
I mean... you did say that you thought there was at least one scum on your wagon earlier. Seems like something you should be interested in if you really believe that. I'm unclear, though, on why you felt L-2 was insufficient to give your claim, particularly when you're Vanilla. You had 3 votes on you for a while before that and a lot of attention was on you so that notion that this was just mafia manipulating the hunting of claims doesn't hold up, particularly if you're unclear on whether mafia was even on your wagon and your pick for the most likely scum on your wagon was last to join. This doesn't hold up with your framing above.
I’m not against DP1 scum hunting, but it shouldn’t be random. I wholeheartedly agree with what Casey said, we need to be following up on leads, not poking around blindly. It’s too easy for scum to get info, especially if we haven’t done any real soft-claims.
That's fair enough when it comes to the wagons on Casey and That2, but there were legitimate reasons for your wagon based on your behavior. Characterizing it as "poking around blindly" doesn't sit well with me.
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@ILikePie5
I did in Super Mario Bros Mafia I think. I think Earth was the mod and it had all villains or something
I believe you're right. I think you were the last to claim that game as well, so it looked more authentic given that you had a wide set of options available.
Well actually, my reason for voting you is twofold, first you hadn’t really contributed much, so I’m forcing you to contribute and post so I can (hopefully) get a better read than you.
So... is that the reason your vote is still on me, then? Because your other basis for voting me doesn't match with my response, and I have been more responsive. I'm not sure what more you're looking for at this point beyond a renewed set of reads.
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@Casey_Risk
Put simply, Pie claiming Vanilla in that game didn't come off as very suspicious to me, though in retrospect, I suppose it should have. Moozer claiming VT in this game, on the other hand, is very suspicious, especially after already having a lot of pressure put on him. I just feel like Pie would have come up with something better. Maybe I'm discounting Pie a bit too much based on that, but I also feel like their interactions do a lot to untie them, in particular #165-#170. I guess it's not impossible that they're paired, but I have a hard time seeing it at this point.
Considering Pie's only been null to me so far, it's not like I'm arguing that he's scum right now, but I wouldn't put the tactic of having his partner claim Vanilla after being pushed early out of the realm of probability. It certainly wouldn't be the only tactic I'd consider from him, or even the most likely one, but in a game by Supa where Vanilla roles are almost a given, it's entirely plausible. As for those interactions, I guess we see them differently. Pie puts Moozer at L-1, states a little later that it's odd he even has to do this, and calls out lurking. Moozer asks if he should full claim and then does. If much of Pie's interaction with Moozer had been earlier in the wagon, I'd probably agree that it unties them, but by that point, Moozer was almost certainly to be pushed to full claim regardless of what Pie did.
I thought I laid it out pretty clearly. It's largely a PoE thing, and I feel like you're one of the least town-leaning players in the game (along with Earth). Although I will say that I have liked your two responses to me tonight, so that does have me reconsidering things.
Fair to have me in PoE, but you did say I lean scum, so it seemed like more than just a PoE thing.
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@Casey_Risk
That was what Pie said, not what you said. Sorry, I guess the way I wrote that is slightly misleading.
All good, I was unclear on where that applied. I see you linked the post, makes sense.
Fair enough, I was going by memory rather than specifically rereading what you wrote in that instance. I still don't think either Pie or Wylted could be Moozer's partner, however.
Not really clear why you’re writing off Pie, even after reading through your posts about it a couple of times. You just said Pie wouldn’t advise this despite having fake claimed Vanilla in at least one previous game I can recall (I’ll have to look it up tomorrow, I’m fading fast). I get the read on WyIted being town overcoming any potential sus for defending the claim.
As for my claiming, I’m going to need some basis for doing that aside from just being null to you, which is all I can see from your reads absent the above discussion. You said at one point that I’m in “your lean scum camp,” but I didn’t see a reason after that apart from the hard bus argument. If you’ve got a reason to sus me, I’d like to see it before I claim anything. It feels doubly weird coming after my claim partly on the basis that there’s “momentum” when all of that momentum comes from Pie and Pie’s entire reason for pushing me is that I might be on a scum team with Moozer, who I have stated outright is my preferred lynch.
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