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Also, I could go so much darker. Yersinia pestis, Clostridium botulinum, Bacillus anthracis, and Mycobacterium tuberculosis are all really cool and far worse.
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@ILikePie5
Stomach ulcers? That’s dark man…very dark
Hey, it’s a lot more than stomach ulcers. It also regulates stomach acid production in most people (ulcers are relatively rare), which is also the reason why a lot of first world countries without pylori as regular microflora suffer more commonly from acid reflux.
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@ILikePie5
What’s your favorite bacteria?
Not an easy choice, but I’d probably go for Helicobacter pylori
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@WyIted
I need your opinion on some bioethics topic soon and I know bioethics is an interest of yours so please do not avoid the thread when I tag you in it seeing as you and maybe the pervert(ADOL( can speak intelligently on bioethics
I’m down.
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@WyIted
Not worth it from where I’m sitting.
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@WyIted
My last words were do not let mharman gas light you out of lynching him and yet he wasn't lynched
I get why you’re arguing this, but if we had followed your lead, the game would have ended. Just because it would have made you feel justified doesn’t mean it was the best choice.
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@WyIted
Probably. I don’t think I would’ve been the hammer since I was second-guessing my read on you, but someone probably would have.
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@WyIted
I will note there was more evidence against mharman than me and you fucks still lynched me
Technically, you lynched you.
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@Cerulean
Ah, that makes sense. Still, good on Austin for suggesting it. I knew Luna was protesting the existence of anti claim way too much, though it didn’t end up being a factor in Mharman’s result.
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But yeah, that two shot rewrite role was a lot. Really fucked with town results in a way I couldn't have anticipated. I guess there wasn't a mechanic against claiming, then?
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@Mharman
@AustinL0926
@Cerulean
Well, that was a trip. Good on both Mharman and Austin for figuring things out, and sorry to Austin for sussing you so long when I should have seen more signs against Pie. Still, glad either I won you over or, as the case may be, Luna pushed you away enough to make the right choice.
(It's unfortunate that Whiteflame didn't notice the lack of punctuation in his Night 2 result, which effectively outed Pie. That might have shaken up that last Day quite a bit.)
In retrospect, I guess that should have stood out to me, though it would not be a first for a mod to leave out punctuation by mistake. I might have sussed Pie as a result, but I don't think it would have convinced others at that point.
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I'll be a backup for now. Heading to a bar mitzvah next week across the country and that's likely going to limit my involvement mid-to-late game, so it might be best if I sit this one out.
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I meant to say "change my mind on Austin and on you." Tired. Sleep.
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@ILikePie5
In case you didn’t notice, WF just did a complete 180 on me, going from I’m not voting Pie today to Pie is kinda sus (after I chose you and Luna correctly as the townies). Quite convenient, no? He tried to buddy me all of today, and then just forsakes me and hard buddy’s you.
I'll leave off with a response to this.
You say it's convenient after acknowledging the obvious: that it's come down to you/Luna or Austin/me. And the reason is obvious: if I'm town, then both Austin and Mharman have had ample opportunity to hammer and end the game. From where I'm sitting, they're both town-confirmed for not doing that. So, yes, that single piece of evidence is reason enough for me to change my mind on Austin. That should be taken as a given. But, hey, you think I'm scum, so I guess the reasoning I would have as town doesn't matter, right?
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@Mharman
I'm going to head off. If you have more questions, I'll be available for a short while, but likely off in 10-15 minutes. Wherever this goes is in your hands at this point, Mharman.
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@Mharman
So I get the sense you’re hiding a third ability. No JOAT I’ve seen has just two.What is it and what is it called?
Surprised you're the first one who asked, figured this would come up sooner, but I didn't want to just out it considering the sus that I got for outing my Tracker late.
My third role is the one I already said I used at the beginning of the DP. My hope was to keep this one in reserve and use it tonight, but since I'm either the lynch or the NK, I'll just out it.
"I See It All So Clear": I'd receive a PM with the full text of an ability my target uses. It specifies that the choice will be the least incriminating assuming my target uses multiple abilities.
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@Mharman
@AustinL0926
Well, you've both now had every chance to end this. Testing that read I posted on you in particular, Austin. If this somehow turns around, consider my mind changed and my sus on Pie.
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Well, that's probably game unless Pie's scum. Been fun, guys.
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Alright, it's getting late and I still need to post some reads. No time like the present. I've said enough about Luna, so I'll shift focus to everyone else.
Pie: Given the Cop result, I still townread him. Perhaps more importantly since I'm currently trying to get Luna lynched, the fact that he claims to have a negative result on Pie's movement also makes me think he's town. If this was a previous DP, I might believe that he was using this as a means to try and "clear" his scum partner, but I don't buy it at this point since it necessarily puts some sus on Pie when Luna flips scum. I just don't buy them as a scum team using this tactic. The Virgin role looks more null the more I think about it (unconfirmable, does not visit, relatively unimportant at this point in the game).
Austin: I'm of two minds about Austin. On the one hand, he does seem to be working with the same logic I'm using this DP, which makes me want to townread him. It might be buddying, but this seems like an inopportune time to do it, all the more so because either I'm going to be lynched or NK'd. On the other hand, I can see him hard-bussing his partner right now to get towncred. That plus the non-consecutive Strengthener claim (we can only verify a visit based on Mharman's result) makes me more uncertain of him, particularly as we have yet to see any confirmation of roles used that the Strengthener could counter. Maybe whatever resulted in WyIted's visit to Mharman wouldn't have pinged my Tracker if I'd Tracked WyIted, but whatever that was seems to have been the result of some other mechanic in this game and it's hard to see how a Strengthener fits into this one, or why it would have gotten a non-consecutive modifier if it does matter given that many of the roles in play are 1X.
Mharman: This is mainly a behavioral read, but I just don't buy Mharman as scum. Everything that happened between him and WyIted, and everything that has come up this DP as a result of it, reads as townie to me. It all comes off as absolutely baffled by a result that does not make sense. Maybe Mharman is just acting this out really well, but his decision to out his role at that particular point in time when there was already a push on WyIted just doesn't make as much sense coming from scum. The main thing that was holding me back from townreading Mharman is how WyIted responded to all this, and he had a very different take. While much of that has fallen apart, I can't dismiss Mharman first asking who visited Casey (something he wouldn't have known) or allowing Austin to inform him of his visit rather than verifying his own role by claiming he was visited by Austin first. That being said, given that he thought the DP was going to end just a short time ago (if he was scum, he'd be happy for it to end that way because it would end the game), I'm still more on town than scum with him at this point.
So yes, despite his agreement with me, I still believe Austin is scum.
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@Mharman
Pretty sure I did already, but I'll repeat it:
"I Can See Through You": Cop
"I'll Be The Hunter": Tracker
"I'll Be The Hunter": Tracker
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@ILikePie5
Still around. I just don't have much to add. Austin has been agreeing with me a good deal, so it would make sense if I was scum. The Mharman/Luna pairing is a bit looser, but I can see how you'd get there.
Even if I survive this DP, I'm almost certain to be the NK, so I'll post a new set of reads before the night's out to cover who I think is Luna's partner.
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@Mharman
In the meantime, I will note that one of you is buddying me.Please tell me why the other person is buddying me, and why you are not.
I guess if there’s one way I’m buddying you, it’s by calling out the likely negative utility roles in Casey’s JOAT, which you mentioned earlier. You aren’t the only one to mention it, but it’s an important aspect of why I find Luna’s claim about Casey’s role being “godly” suspect, so I’ve applied it as I felt was warranted. Wouldn’t call it buddying, but I could see it being interpreted that way.
As for Luna, I already mentioned I didn’t like this:
I'll drop the mechanical arguments since mharman doesn't wanna focus on it, and alot of it is just guessing what the mod would or wouldn't do and what roles do or do not exist.
He threw cold water on this argument largely because you said you were discarding it. He then said that he’d approve an extension based on your need for it, and has made clear that he was “not buying the either or situation between WF and mharman” (I think it was between WyIted and you, don’t recall a heads up situation between the two of us) and seems to imply that he always believed your result, making any extra discussion of WyIted moot (note: that certainty apparently didn’t lead him to post a vote last DP).
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@Lunatic
My point is that you are claiming a 1x cop, and that you are being a massive hypocrite in saying that one can't exist in caseys role group.
I said I wasn’t going to respond, but I’m going to call out straight up lies. I never said Casey cannot possibly have a Cop role. Not once. Several times, I’ve acknowledged it as possible. I have said your framing relies on Casey definitely having a Cop role. So, yes, the absolute claim has the burden of proof. Shocker, I know.
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@Lunatic
Well, I’d say that feeling insane reading these responses is mutual, but we both know it’s not. You and I both know that there is literally no precedent for a role like Miller to be in a game where it is only potentially fucks with a hidden role. That’s why, at every turn, you have refused to provide a single example of a game where that happened, yet you assert that it’s exactly what happened here.
Love that you keep ignoring the likely fact that a compulsive, 6 role JOAT had negative utility roles as though it’s necessarily true, and that you keep arguing that Casey necessarily had a Cop because their roles were just so obvious, despite the fact that you clearly didn’t infer the Cop from Casey’s role list.
Alright, now I’m done. If you want to last word, as you so often do, have at it.
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@Lunatic
THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR DOING THO. You are claiming a 1x cop. You are also suggesting that a miller exists for you, an apparent 1x cop. How are you missing this point?!?!??!?!
Apparently, one more response is necessary.
What‘a different - and I’ve said this so many times it’s starting to lose all meaning - is that the existence of a HIDDEN COP as the entire basis for the existence of a Miller role is the problem. Not the existence of ANY COP. Please, if you’re going to respond to me, at least respond to the whole point rather than cherry-picking words out that don’t help your case. Also, please note again, my case allows for the possible existence of a hidden Cop, it just doesn’t bank entirely on that being the sole reason for the Miller to exist. Again, can you find a single game where a Miller existed for solely this purpose? I’ll wait.
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Last thing I’m going to say in response to Luna. This behavioral sus is very WIFOM. Of course I’d kill Earth because he was sussing me because… I guess it was really bad when he called me out that one time for over specifying. Of course the back-and-forth where I hopped off WyIted’s lynch and considered whether to hop back the next day was all a ruse to… somehow look less scummy when he hammered himself. This all reads like reaching and he’s doing it while ignoring the fact that I wasn’t the only one on WyIted’s lynch, yet I was also clearly the most hesitant to stay there. And all this is especially convenient of a position for someone to take who was only lightly involved in the first two DPs.
And yes, of course he’d rather discard the mechanics of the game, the major points he has had no response for this entire DP. Note that mechanics are the only means by which he can make any sense of his case for using a Tracker role and for Casey having a Cop, but suddenly, that’s all secondary. Anyone else going to call that out? Because I will.
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@Cerulean
If people want an extension to think about this more, it’s fine by me.
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@Lunatic
This argument literally applies to you too brother. I get wanting to win, but the logical inconsistency here is very odd coming from you. Literally the only point you can make is that the dead 6x JOAT doesn't have the 1x cop ability which you have absolutely no way of proving, you just have to WIFOM bs a reason for them to buy it, but saying a miller can't exist for casey is a tough sell.
You keep trying to turn this point around on me, and the fact that you’ve managed to string this out as long as you have is a testament to how persuasive you are, but not how good the point is. You must be right that Casey had both a 1X Cop and a 1X Tracker, the former of which you couldn’t possibly know. Just because Casey had 6 roles does not mean that they had these two specific roles, and the notion that I somehow have to prove that Casey didn’t have them is fucking baffling.
It’s even more baffling to me that, assuming Casey did have these two roles, a hidden role (the Cop) was a basis for making a player a Miller. Again: has anyone ever heard of a single game where a hidden role on a JOAT became the entire basis for a negative utility role in that same game to exist? No one has answered this, yet Luna’s point is absolutely banking on it being true.
But since we’re doing this and I see no reason to change my mind:
VTL Lunatic
Ball’s in your court, guys.
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Well, I'm done arguing the points at this stage. I really don't understand dispensing with a basic mechanic like the existence of a Miller in the game without a known Cop, but here we are.
I'm ready to vote whenever, so if people want to set up a given order to vote in, I'm fine with whatever. I'll be around much of the day aside from a movie this afternoon.
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@Mharman
Certainly a weird tree stump
Yeah... it's a role that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If he had to be killed at night, fine, but the only purpose of the death not being revealed would be to introduce some uncertainty regarding the success of Earth's Doc or allow GP to fake claim BP, neither of which would have lasted any longer than it would have taken for GP to put a VTL on someone. It's doubly weird that the Tree Stump could be voted as the lynch. Never seen that before.
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@Mharman
So I notice Greyparrot didn’t say anything DP2, nor was he tagged by Cerulean.A tailor may be back on the table. I was suspicious of Greyparrot’s claim in DP1, it looking back, that doesn’t have to come from scummy motives.
The flip made clear why GP didn't speak in DP2:
If you are killed during the Night, you will not fully die until the end of the following Day. You will be unable to vote or use any Day actions, but you will be allowed to post as much as you want. You can be voted as the Day elimination in this state. Your death will not be revealed, nor will your role be flipped, until the Day ends.
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@Lunatic
@AustinL0926
whiteflame is literally claiming 1x cop, when we already have a flipped 6x JOAT. Your telling me you don't think a cop ability exists in any of those 6 abilities, and that a 2x investigative JOAT exists along side a 6x JOAT?A cop ability could exist. But why is there a dedicated miller for a single JOAT ability that the user doesn't even know what it does?
This was a response to Luna but I got tagged, so I'm tagging him.
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@Mharman
I can’t dismiss the existence of a TP or neutral party this point, since it could be 2-2-1 and the game could still be on, I just don’t think it’s the most likely realization of that line from the OP, since all the flips and my Cop result have been town-aligned. I think the post about the game not being over came in response to multiple statements from WyIted about there being some mechanic to end the game last DP.
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@Lunatic
.
The case town can buy into is that a 2x investigative JOAT is unlikely to exist when theres a 6x godly JOAT
Why did you refer to Casey’s JOAT as “godly”? It has more roles, but I don’t see how that modifier applies. Casey didn’t know any of those roles. You’re the only one who claims to know one of them. As Mharman suggested, several of them could be negative utility, and it’s a compulsive use, so what part of this is “godly”?
Either way your admitting to crazy balance scheme that is just less likely to exist, two powerful JOATS with investigative abilities
That “scheme” or something similar to it is heavily implied from the OP, something you’ve addressed with a shrug so far. WyIted claimed and was likely punished for it. No explanation from you of where that punishment resolved.
Having two JOATs who do have the same investigative abilities and two JOATs who could have different investigative abilities are very different scenarios. The former is exceedingly unlikely, I agree, which makes your case for Casey having both of the same abilities I claimed similarly implausible. The latter is plausible, particularly with known manipulation thereof.
Like I said above it also mentions that your visit on np1 was unnacounted for when we know a manipulation role exists.
Again, all predicated on the notion that there must be a Bus Driver, and that anyone who visited Mharman couldn’t have used it (wouldn’t be a first for scum to be able to use multiple roles and visit multiple targets). By that metric, you could be the Bus Driver. Your visit to Pie wasn’t accounted for, either. Guess you’re leaving yourself out of that consideration as well, or are you going to claim that your presenting the option of a Bus Driver means we shouldn’t implicate you?
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@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
At this point, though I think there are other issues in play, this is mainly an issue of mechanics as far as I'm concerned. We can talk about anticlaim and the various ways Mharman could have received that result, we can talk about who was on what lynch for how long and what reasons, or we can just focus in on the key issue at play: the existence of WyIted as a Miller in the game and Casey's known hidden role, compulsive JOAT.
If you guys buy that it's a probable setup for a Miller to exist solely for the of functioning as negative utility to an unknown JOAT role (and, seriously, if anyone knows of a game where this kind of thing was used in a setup, please point me to it), then you're sussing me.
If you buy that a Miller could only exist in a game with a known Cop role somewhere in play, then you're sussing Luna.
So, yes, I think this is a 1v1 situation. Either he's right or I am at this point. I know we've gotten into long arguments before when we were both town, but this feels different, and I feel more confident in this situation than I have in prior ones.
That being said, it's not up to me. I've made clear what my view is, so it's up to all of you at this point. I'll respond to other questions, but that's my case at base and I don't feel a need to add to it further than you've already seen in my responses.
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@ILikePie5
Alright, I have like a minute and based on what I’ve read, here’s a question I would like everyone to answer because it will help move everything along:Does everyone here think I am town?I ask because from my POV, it makes the game clearer. If I am town, the scum line is exactly Austin/Mharman and Lunatic/Whiteflame. One from each of the pools. Everyone in this game is capable of bussing their partners and everyone has something going against them but I haven’t heard much about how I am scum. If we all agree that I am town, I can lead the town (will be hard cause my girl won’t let me use my phone, but I’ll sneak it somehow). I just need each of you to post your exact scum team and reasons why. I will analyze all the DPs. All the information, and make a post with my vote on Sunday at some point. Right now everything is so convoluted we don’t know who to believe, so I am proposing this.
I have the most reason to townread you based on my Cop result, it's pretty plain and simple for me. It's possible you're the Godfather, but given your claim (which would be particularly odd for someone trying to push a given lynch at LYLO), you're not acting as I would expect you to as scum. That being said, I know you've done this before. Despite being a very late claim in the Paper Mario game, you claimed Vanilla and you were the Godfather. I guess my gutread is that you wouldn't do almost literally the exact same thing (you're not claiming Vanilla this time, but it's still a role that can't be confirmed) and just so happen to be Godfather again. Outside of that particular scenario or one where you've been Lawyered at a very opportune time, I believe you're town, and at least for this DP, I'm banking on that.
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@Lunatic
Interesting in whiteflames response, in regards to point number 1 he basically is scum slipping.There is a Miller in the game solely to act as negative utility to an unknown, compulsive, 1X role Casey hadThis is literally the role he is claiming, a 1x investigator, with a 1x tracker. Again, like I said in my analysis this is whiteflame trying to sell the existence of two joat's, one with 6 abilities, none of which can be investigative, for it is HE who is the actual investigative role. See the problem with this?
A. None of what you've said here follows from that statement. I said that your case against me necessitates that Casey must have had at least two hidden investigative roles - Tracker and Cop - and that WyIted's Miller role exists solely for the purpose of being negative utility to the latter.
B. My point was never that Casey had no investigative roles. I've said it a few times in different ways, but I'll state it concisely here: Casey could most definitely have had investigative roles, it just doesn't follow that Casey's investigative roles would necessarily be Tracker and Cop. Your case is reliant on those two existing among Casey's roles, despite not knowing what any of those roles are based on the flip. Even with my claims, Casey could have had anything from a Watcher to a Lie Detector that wouldn't have been CC'd by me.
His second point responding is more engagement around WIFOMing that the mod is engaging in bastard mechanics. He shames me for not discussing this with him more, but why would I? Bastard mechanics are the whole narrative upon which he is selling how things could have worked, why would I or anyone buy that cerulean, a first time mod who has gained respect as a player in this community would randomly punish town by fvcking with their results, over believing that a bus driver exists?! A busdriver is a fairly common role. He doesn't want you to believe this, because it's probably exactly what happened when he bus drove himself with wylted DP 2. He doesn't want you to believe this because then it clears mharman as a mislynch target and also makes austin look good, who he is also trying to paint as a mislynch target.
So the apparently bastard mechanic that was receiving widespread discussion across the first two DPs didn't warrant any response from Lunatic at any point before this? It didn't because there was no value in engaging in that discussion for Luna at that time. He now sees value in limiting the number of available options for how Mharman was visited by WyIted down to just being the Bus Driver so that he can implicate me, so now it's useful to argue that anticlaim mechanics are inherently bastard. Also, note that I've never - not once in this DP or elsewhere - dismissed the possibility of a Bus Driver. That's another very deliberate mischaracterization.
Trying to accuse me of lying about him being on the wylted lynch is funny. Yeah maybe his actual vote didn't get placed on wylted, but that doesn't negate the posts I pointed out. Wylted being impulsive as he was stole the ability for whiteflame to hammer, but whiteflame had every intention of doing it, so does him not actually doing it matter when he basically indicated he would in this post: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12102-albums-mafia-track-two?page=5&post_number=121"If someone else wants to hammer you in the time it takes me to come back, so be it."This was another easy mislynch for mafia that whiteflame was ready and willing to take advantage of after basically getting a free lynch on GP. Again I was on neither of these mislynches, and had plenty of oppertunity to be on either of them, and could have justified both as well. I was posting about my activity dp1, if I had a mafia partner pinging me I could have easily voted GP with little justification, and didn't because I generally wasn't caught up or aware of what was going on, something that mafia have the luxury of having a partner for.
So now Luna's changing his story from "WF has been on the lynch for the past two mislynches" to "he indicated that he might hammer if no one else did." Substantial shift there. As for Luna not being on either of these lynches, that's not particularly indicative of anything. There was significant momentum behind both lynches regardless of his intervention. Staying off the lynches because he was absent for much of the DP, even if he had opportunities to hop on both, isn't indicative of anything since he didn't push back on either lynch that I can see.
Whiteflame's story here stinks bad, and points in all directions of him being scum. I won't be on til later on today as I will be asleep, I imagine Whiteflame will use that oppertunity to control the narrative, but I don't really have much more to say about it anyway, so the fate of the game is in your hands, pie, austin, mharman. One of you is scum, but that's a problem for tomorrow. Today we should be lynching whiteflame. I am more than happy to wait until sunday to vote as per mharman, no rush here.
What I find interesting is that there are large swaths of my argument Luna just conveniently left out.
He ignores the fact that, in his narrative, the Miller only exists as negative utility to a hidden role we still don't know even exists, something I and, it seems, Luna (given his lack of response on this) have never seen in any game setup.
He still hand-waves away an element of the OP that several of us have drawn attention to over the entire game, just calling it bastard modding instead of recognizing that it's practically a given for there to be a mechanic - whether it comes from the mod or other players - that punishes character or role claiming. The only question is what the punishment was, though Luna doesn't seem interested in engaging with it.
For all you talk about my attempt "to control the narrative," you certainly don't seem interested in engaging with my main points.
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@Mharman
So I’m looking at Casey’s role a bit more. I kinda overlooked this, but the role being compulsive definitely makes this negative utility imo. In fact, all six of these could be bad for town. The lover and silencer are pretty obvious, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the other four were likewise given that they’re all compulsive and Casey doesn’t know. Could be a pick your poison for Casey.it is possible that some of these roles actually help town. Regardless, I wonder if any of her roles had something to do with my results on Wytled
Missed this post. I hadn’t given much thought to Casey’s other roles or the compulsory nature of their role. It’s possible some of these were negative utility, but it would be a shot in the dark to try and guess which one could have been used which way, and even harder to say who Casey used it on and what the effect was.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
I’d like to point out just a couple of the fundamental assumptions you have to buy for me to be scum from Luna’s explanation:
- There is a Miller in the game solely to act as negative utility to an unknown, compulsive, 1X role Casey had. Remember, it was Luna who started this whole conversation sussing my Cop claim by questioning why there would be a Miller for a 1X Cop. Looks like he has come around to an idea that’s far less certain and, to my knowledge, has no precedence in any game. If someone can point to a game where someone had a bunch of 1X hidden roles and a negative utility role was created just to counter one of those roles, I’m all ears.
- That there was definitely a Bus Driver. Luna keeps pushing this argument that there must have been a Bus Driver in play and that that’s the only explanation for why Mharman got his result. He conveniently skipped out on engaging in any discussion of anticlaim or other mechanics that could be in play until this DP and hand-waves away an important part of the OP as either bastard modding or so basic that it didn’t require mentioning. The Bus Driver is one mechanic that might explain the result. It is not the only one, and the fact that WyIted basically full claimed before DP1 ended indicates that he was likely punished for doing so.
- You would have to believe I was on both lynches. This is the most blatantly false part of Luna’s narrative because, and I encourage everyone to check this, I was not on WyIted’s lynch when he self-hammered. I had a rather long discussion with WyIted after hopping off his lynch, only for Earth and WyIted himself to seal the deal. Anyone wonder why I was townreading the Miller aspect of WyIted’s claim back in DP2? I was trying to be subtle about it because I hadn’t used my Cop role yet, but I had the most reason to townread his Miller claim, which is why I was so hesitant to go ahead with the lynch. If you want to scumread me for being on GP’s wagon or because Earth thought I was sus for over clarifying a post, be my guest, but this is Luna isn’t even Luna grasping at straws. It’s just straight up lying.
Meanwhile, what does Luna have in his favor? Claiming that Pie didn’t visit NP1. Setting aside the chance that they’re just scum partners and Pie’s the Godfather (not my theory atm), Pie had already softed his claim at this point, he had already stated that he hadn’t visited Mharman or Casey, Luna or his partner could have used a Stalker or Role Cop to determine this, and even if none of this is true, he could have just taken a risk. Results, including mine, were bound to be scrutinized and disbelieved this DP and we already know there’s been some fuckery based on Mharman’s results from NP1. He likely would have just pushed a different explanation for what happened if Pie had said he visited. The risk of being wrong was negligible at best.
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@Mharman
I made the decision to claim a different role after Earth’s flip revealed his role to see if anyone else would claim TrackerFeels quite convenient
It was my call to hide that aspect of my role and see if anyone would bite. Guarantee Luna wouldn’t have claimed to use a Tracker role if I had been forthright.
If Lunatic is scum, who would his teammate be?
Austin’s my current. I think Luna’s putting some stark distance between the two of them by pushing back on anticlaim. Also, note that Austin hasn’t responded to any of Luna’s points against anticlaim, which was a theory Austin presented. They have had more interactions this DP over the Strengthener role, but I could see that being staged. I could see a case for either you or Pie, but those both seem significantly weaker.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
At this point, we need to start giving clear reads.
I think I've made clear enough that my top choice for a lynch this DP is Luna, though I'd like to give him time to respond in full. The Gravedigger role is now impossible to verify and obtained a role identical to one of mine. If it was the Cop, I could at least see a case for saying that the existence of the Miller makes more sense with more shots on the board, but having two 1X Tracker roles on the only two town JOATs would be some lazy modding and I don't buy it.
Pie's easy enough with my Cop result. If you believe that Luna is town, then he has a Tracker result that supports his role not being an active one/his not having committed the NK in one NP. I realized in the shower that I was a little much in seeing this as a reason why Pie might survive the NP. If we do hit scum and survive this NP, it'll be 2-1, so unless we collectively decided to NL at that point, it doesn't really matter if scum have access to an NK or not. So I don't see why he'd benefit from this as a fake claim beyond it just being unverifiable.
Mharman is an open question based on whether he's pulling a mighty gambit to great effect. It wouldn't have been the most obvious way to secure a lynch on WyIted, and it necessarily drew attention to him after WyIted's flip. His response this DP makes me townread him behaviorally, and that's consistent with what I saw from him before.
That leaves Austin. The claim is a little sus to me in general, since we haven't heard of anyone being clearly redirected (if WyIted had been, he would have recruited Mharman) or RB'd. I think we would have seen something along those lines if there was a manipulative role that could be affected by a Strengthener. I had a strong townread on him earlier, but I'm no longer convinced. It's not a strong sus, but it's stronger than I have for Pie or Mharman at this stage.
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@ILikePie5
If I was scum, I would kill the Investigator (ie you). Unless you’re scum, I don’t die tonight. I also soft claimed my character on first page of DP1, and had every possible claim open to claim
I don't think it's plausible for you to die tonight in any scenario, but point taken on the softclaim and available choices.
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I won't be on til tonight to really respond to anything in depth here, but you realize how much of a stretch that is to say that is a CC when casey was essentially a JOAT right? Also even if we were to buy that it was a CC, you are doing this at MYLO so it should be completely taken with a grain of salt. I am not going to argue what you thought caseys role sounded better as, I was told by the mod it was a tracker plain and simple, so debate in that area is pretty pointless.
I've claimed a JOAT myself, and the notion that Cerulean would choose to include two different JOATs with the same role certainly isn't impossible, but the idea that he'd specifically choose to give Tracker to two separate players seems a little dubious, especially considering all the other roles he could have chosen as alternates along similar lines (e.g. Watcher, Motion Detector).
I expect that everyone's going to take this with a substantial grain of salt, and it should be. That being said, what the role actually was is a minor point from my post.
If all we are "clearing" you off of though is the existence of a miller, but you are also arguing that the mod included bastard mechanics like "anti-claims" it's interesting you are dead set on believing its not bastard but willing to use the logic that a miller can't exist without more than a 1x cop (which is essentially what you are), and potentially essentially something casey has in my example I used that you tried advocating againt.
I said there's good reason to believe that some system is in place to punish claiming. It's right in the OP, and I already addressed why I believe it exists - I can't see any response here to my reasoning on that front. Also, you were the one who said "does a miller exist for a 1x cop ability?". I never said that a Miller couldn't exist with only a 1X Cop. All I said was that it indicated the existence of any Cop, and that we can't know that Casey had a Cop role. I also pointed out that it's even more dubious to argue that a Miller exists solely for an unknown role Casey might have had.
Anyways I don't like WF's claim, but I am not going to omgus him, I'll sleep on it and post later tonight. I am still unwilling to dismiss what's going on with the busdriver thing.
Guess I'll see how you respond to the above about my claim and Casey's flip. I'll note that I didn't dismiss your Bus Driver argument.
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
So I’m going to level with everyone at this point:
The role I used NP1 was not as I described. I made that one up. I am the Cop, but my other role was the Tracker, and I Tracked Earth to Austin during NP1. I made the decision to claim a different role after Earth’s flip revealed his role to see if anyone else would claim Tracker.
Luna didn’t quite do that, given that he claims to have gotten his Tracker role off of his Gravedigger on Casey, and it’s possible that Casey did actually have a Tracker role and there are just two 1X Trackers in play. That being said, my current sus is on Luna. I don’t buy that there are two Trackers. A Watcher and a Tracker, maybe, but replicating this specific role doesn’t make sense to me. I also didn’t buy that the role he claims he used, "I am the truth from which you run", was a Tracker role. I thought Lie Detector or even a Cop, which would make more sense to duplicate given the Miller. Mine is listed as “I’ll Be The Hunter” (for context, my Cop is listed as “I Can See Through You”).
I’d like to discuss this before we start voting, but consider my vote effectively on Luna atm.
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@ILikePie5
It’s basically the soundtrack from the movie 3 Idiots. He mainly used the movie as the justification (I genuinely think Ceru watched the movie with the justification he wrote) with the main character Rancho having a big impact on everyone that he went to college with including his professor and fellow students. He helped each and everyone of them become a better version of themselves even though it was at the expense of never seeing them again at least till the ending. Because of this, I am the VirginMy ability is called Aal Iz Well: If I ever die in the night, all kills the next night phase will be blocked.
Alright. I could see this being a fake claim given that it’s an excuse for you to survive the next NP despite being townread by two results, but as I said before, I’m trusting my Cop result on you for this DP, so I’ll think about this more later.
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Anyway, I'm going to hold off on posting more thoughts until I see Pie's claim.
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@Lunatic
I kind of half ceded this point already, so it's not really worth debating, but it is technically possible for a miller to exist for a 1x cop. I'll give you the point though that it's probably unlikely.
Noted.
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@Lunatic
I think that leans into the realm of bastard modding, and I am not really sold that is the way it was meant to be interpeted. I figure it is more of "you don't wanna claim your character because mafia might have a role that can effect character claims" or something rather than an invasive mechanic included by the mod.
If that was how we should have interpreted it, then it need not have been said. That's a given in virtually every game. It seems odd that Cerulean would actively delineate this alongside mechanics like a TP or hidden flips if the aim was just to say "scum can take advantage of your claims." This has also been a subject of active discussion since DP1, and much as the anticlaim mechanic is something I'm just learning of this game, it seems commonplace in certain modding communities from what I've seen.
I think the wording of "mechanics" is what is causing this paranoia, but like I said above, I'd assume that was a player role like, lawyer, framer, tailor, something like that rather than something the mod would just randomly include to punish town arbitrarily. Otherwise town would have abilities that should counter mafia inherently, again bastard, and I really don't think that is what ceru meant by any of that. Maybe I am wrong, but It seems like a bigger stretch to believe the adverse.
It doesn't seem arbitrary. I'm sure the mechanic would have affected scum if they had claimed up to this point, whether that means granting roles to town players or giving hidden roles to scum that undermine them. I get that that requires more of a mod hand in the process of a developing game, I'm just not convinced that's inherently bastard. That being said, depending on how it's used, I can see how it might lead to problems. If more people had claimed and there were a bunch of hidden/extra roles in play, I could see that getting absurd.
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@Lunatic
@Mharman
The only thing that doesn't make sense is if austin strengthened you, your results should have worked past a manipulation role. So, either he is lying, you are lying, or for some reason cerulean doesn't allow strengthener to work on your role. Which is why I am having him ask ceru how is role works with yours, but I imagine if he was scum austin would just lie about the answer here anyway. Still worth asking I suppose and we can evaluate that based on the feedback. But if it comes down to one of you lying, I am leaning you being the townie here, because for one I think you would have understood the bus driver stuff better if you were scum, seeing as it's like the only thing that explains your actions here. And secondly, because you made a huge point in the last game we played about how you don't like taking big risks like that as mafia, and in the end you were right and town. That would be a major mix up from this game. That is still wifom reasoning, but at the end of the day that was a pretty ballsy move of you if you were scum, and part of me doesn't see you doing that. Something isn't lining up with austin though, unless I am just wrong about how strengthener works.
I've become less and less sure of my read of this situation as the DP has gone on, especially given that the role in question is passive and the method of manipulation isn't obvious. For now, I'm assuming that a Bus Driver could affect results in this way, though as Mharman said, I think we can't discount penalties for claiming as somehow affecting this. Recall this line from DP1:
There may be any or all of the following mechanics present: Third Party/Neutral alignments, abilities that hide/alter the flips of the dead, and abilities that punish character or role claiming.
I think by this point, we should be assuming that at least one of these is in the game. We haven't seen any altered or hidden flips, so I'll rule that one out. That leaves TPs/neutral alignments (haven't seen any, but it's still possible), and abilities that punish character/role claims, which is where this whole theory about anti-claims stems from. It's not a given that that is part of the game, but given the lack of TP/neutral flips, I'd say it's the most plausible.
We know that WyIted basically gave away his role DP1. Maybe he thought he was being clever with that whole "opposite of the opposite of a Miller" nonsense, but I'm guessing that Cerulean took that as a role claim. He also claimed his album, Bad, in DP1. It would not surprise me if the punishment were something like "WyIted now has the hidden role of Sleepwalker, which automatically visits another player independent of his Neighborizer visit". I know this is spit-balling, but this is also in the first OP:
There are mechanics in this game that may cause Night feedback to be incorrect or missing.
That definitely includes the Miller, but I don't think Cerulean would have included this specific bit of information just to let town know that a Miller is likely in this game, especially if there's a Tracker role also in play. Maybe this is meant to point to the existence of the Bus Driver and it was used the way Luna described, though even that could be a "punishment" inflicted by granting scum an extra role to use during NP1 based on WyIted's or GP's claims.
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