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@Lunatic
Fair, but one of casey's abilities could also be a cop ability. That said does a miller exist for a 1x cop ability? Anyways I acknowledge that the reason for doubting your role is kind of bad to begin with, just that it seems town is pretty powerful with everything claimed so far, plus what we've seen in the grave. But like I said, ceru did say it was a role madness game and mafia could have counters to everything for all we know.
We know the Miller exists, so the question is not whether a Cop exists, but what type of Cop. If it seems odd that a Miller exists solely for the purpose of balancing a 1X Cop, then it would necessarily be even odder if the Miller existed solely for the purpose of balancing one of Casey's unknown roles, which would just be a hidden 1X Cop.
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@ILikePie5
Drinking the coffee and catching up this morning. I'll respond to a few posts, but I'm tagging you again to see if we can get that claim since I still haven't seen it.
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@Lunatic
I’m going to knock off for the night since I’m falling asleep in front of my laptop. I’ll post a set of reads tomorrow, hopefully after Pie claims, but I did want to address something missing from your read on me:
There is a dead Miller and I’m the only claimed Cop in this game. My role does certainly seem to have more to it than others that have been claimed/flipped, but unless Pie has been a Cop all along, WyIted’s flip should be a pretty strong consideration in whether you believe my role claim.
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@AustinL0926
Also, btw, if I'm scum I just claim a more powerful version of strengthener to make it look like Mharman had to be lying about his results and secure a winning mislynch. The only way I can reasonably be scum here is if I'm teammates with Mharman, which is... something I suppose.
I guess that's a fair point. I'll consider it.
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@Lunatic
Interesting. I've got thoughts on your claim, but I'll wait until Pie claims to detail them since I don't have a lot of time right now anyway.
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@Mharman
@AustinL0926
I realized I didn’t ping Austin on that last post, sorry about that.
It’s admittedly more of an attempt to parse what happened. If Mharman is telling the truth, then there’s a role in play from scum that manipulated his result. If that role exists and a Strengthener exists, then either the Strengthener cannot affect it (which makes its non-consecutive use seem unnecessary and the role itself underpowered given that scum have roles that will manipulate regardless) or it can and it failed to do so. If it’s the former, then the balance in this game is especially weird.
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@Mharman
Anyway, going to wait on the remaining claims for the time being. For the time being, suffice it to say that I’m not sure about Austin’s claim, either. It’s all the stranger given that the Strengthener role should theoretically have prevented any manipulation of your role, meaning that it shouldn’t have registered a fake visit. Unclear what scum could have done to get around that if he actually used it on you, or what the purpose of the Strengthener is in a game where it cannot address this situation beyond just preventing RBs (unclear anyone has an RB).
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@Mharman
As I hinted back in DP1, I'm Beneath the Skin by Of Monsters and Men, and I'm the investigative JOAT. The justification is that the band improved with this second album by getting more personal with one another, figuratively getting "beneath the skin" of their other members.
Gave my justification here. The album was the result of improved personal familiarity between band members. Not super obvious, but here we are.
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@Mharman
My gutread is that some manipulation occurred, which points towards either Luna or Austin as the lynch this DP. Hence those claims are needed.
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@Mharman
So, does whoever liked Post #3 want to show themselves?
I didn't like any posts. I'd guess it's WyIted.
I can see why a townie (or even someone spectating the game) would like Pie’s post. However, I would love it if that townie, if that’s who it was, said something.Anything to say? I can answer your questions. Or at least, I can try.
The options at this point are between scum having some means of manipulating the results you received or that you're lying about your role. I wish you had given the info about who visited you before Austin stated that he had, since that would have at least confirmed that you knew it without prior validation, but I can believe that scum have some ability to manipulate these kinds of results, it's just odd that they would somehow be able to manipulate how you see people who visit you. I haven't seen that role used before, but it's certainly not impossible.
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Alright, I'm going to just straight up claim at this point.
As I hinted back in DP1, I'm Beneath the Skin by Of Monsters and Men, and I'm the investigative JOAT. The justification is that the band improved with this second album by getting more personal with one another, figuratively getting "beneath the skin" of their other members.
I had two shots with it, one that allowed me to see the text of an ability used by the person I was targeting (used on NP1 on Earth, determined that he used his Doc role) and the other was a Cop role (used on NP2 on Pie, it said he was town-aligned - yes, that's how it was stated in the PM). The former is the reason I didn't sus Earth DP2 (sucks that he's dead), the latter was more of a gut feeling (sorry Pie) that I needed to get clarity on Pie. Unless there's somehow another Cop role in this game, WyIted's flip confirms my role.
As for what we can do now, I recognize that the result I got on Pie could be manipulated, but for now he's my strongest townread based on this result. I'm against lynching him this DP at minimum. That leaves Mharman, Luna and Austin. Before I give my thoughts on who to lynch, I'd like to see full claims from the latter two. I'd also like Pie's claim at this point. Regardless of my result, there's no reason to hold back at this stage.
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@WyIted
Ah... guess you're right, missed that vote. Oh well.
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@WyIted
@Cerulean
Well, that isn't the hammer since I hopped off your wagon here. If someone else wants to hammer you in the time it takes me to come back, so be it.
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@WyIted
Alright. I do find it odd that scum would bitch about that particular result when the options were literally you have someone in chat with you or you don't. Getting roleblocked, successfully targeting Casey or somehow getting redirected to GP all result in the same outcome, and we know that no other redirection happened because you don't have someone in chat with you, so if someone complained, I'm not sure what the aim of doing so would be.
Going to take a break from this for now, but I'll think about it.
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@WyIted
I literally stated in this thread he called Casey by name so obviously they complained after that point
So you received the updated PM after you posted that?
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@WyIted
Why would mharman start by asking who visited Casey? My theory is that he was planning to claim watcher or something but changed his mind and then started to shift and who visited him.
That's one interpretation. Mine is that he knew people would lie responding to that, and followed up with the question about who visited him expecting some lies in response with the aim being that the second question would be where he turned the tables. Maybe he was planning to claim Watcher, but if so, his decision not to is perplexing. That would have been an easy way to secure a lynch as well.
The mod must have been bitched at for mentioning that my action on Casey was successful though no PM was necessary. That's the only reason he would correct it to "player targeted is dead" in the PM.
This is starting to get a little strange to me. So your argument is that scum had knowledge of the response that you received somehow, rather than Cerulean just realizing that he'd given you too much information and attempting to correct for that.
The original plan for mharman was to say 2 people visited Casey so if I flip innocent he had the other person to mislynch the next dp, he saw this wouldn't work so had to quickly and without much forfought claim he was randomly some sort of self watcher. Why else switch from asking who visited Casey to who visited him?
How did he come to this conclusion? Your argument has shifted now from this is MYLO to he was seeking two mislynches and mysteriously decided not to do it for reasons. As for asking about Casey, it makes sense if his focus was on you. You claimed to have visited Casey. He asked if others had visited Casey to show that no one else who claimed to be town had. He wouldn't have expected to get an answer in the affirmative from anyone who was scum, but it could be helpful to know that Casey had multiple claimed visitors vs. just one.
Also whoever bitched to the mod was online just prior to me posting what I did which just leaves I believe you and lunatic.
Still not clear anyone did this, and if they did, it's unclear that they had the kind of inside information that you're claiming they did about your PMs.
From everyone's perspective this should be 1 v 1 and anyone claiming it isn't should be sussed because no other explanation exists for mharman not only switching claims by asking who else visited Casey to then himself. It is simply not possible for their to be a role here that could trick him
I disagree that Mharman shifted claims. There was certainly a different direction I expected him to take based on his question about Casey, and Watcher was what I expected, but that doesn't mean that that was his fake claim and he changed it last minute. The question itself may have been softing, or it might have been a misdirect aimed at getting information about who visited Mharman himself by hinting that he wouldn't know. I can see him doing this as town, so while it's possible that he just fucked up and then changed tacks for no apparent reason, it's not the most plausible explanation from where I'm sitting.
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@WyIted
Not next dp. His gambit makes sense if we ate at mylo
I guess, I just don't agree that that's the only explanation - that there's some double-kill mechanic that scum is aware of and will use this NP. I understand how you got to that conclusion, even if I don't think it's the most likely reason for his claim.
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@WyIted
Keep in mind that as a Miller I know there is an investigative role. A lot of aus on me is a good reason to claim. Usually the cop gets 1 or 2 investigations in a game, even if they are not X-shot so I didn't want them wasting their shot on me so I have a good reason to just go ahead and tell them what their result on me will be.
I recognize that you had a good deal of sus on you, but you didn't have a lot of votes. The most votes it looks like you ever had on you was 2, so I wouldn't say you were ever pressured enough to effectively force your hand. If your goal was just to prevent a potential Cop from using their role, why wait until that late in the DP to claim?
I know I didn't visit mharman so I am not sure what the deal here is today. Behaviorally speaking I had a town read of him but mechanically, knowing I am town this makes him scum.I don't understand his gambit here unless he can obscure my affiliation upon death but I wasn't misdirected last NP because Casey's name was in my PM and I would be in a PM with mharman right now if I was misdirected.His results are wrong or he lied.
There could be some fuckery going on here, but if you actually used a Neighborizer, got confirmation that you were successful, but have no one in chat with you, then as I see it there are a bunch of options.
1) You're lying.
2) There's a hidden role at play in either your or Mharman's roles and it's modifying the result.
3) Scum have a role that's changing what Mharman's role is perceiving.
4) He's lying about his role.
At least for now, I'm ruling out #4. I don't think Mharman would choose to make this a heads up when, as you've said, circumstances didn't really require it - you were already being sussed. I believe his claim. I haven't heard of a way to obscure affiliation on death, but that's really the only way your flip doesn't put him in the crosshairs.
I know you've mentioned a few times that there's the possibility that the game ends next DP, which does exist, but that's not really going to affect what happens now. Someone's going to get lynched, so it's kind of a given that we have to accept that risk.
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Only skimmed so far, too early for me to fully read and get all this. I’ll unvote since it seems people are good with using the DP to have some discussion and I’d like to at least hear WyIted out before anyone hammers.
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@Lunatic
Is there mechanical POE that clears everyone but me and you or are you talking strictly behavior? If the latter I guess that is fair considering my absence.
Alright, last post for the night will be this response then.
Mharman threw down the gauntlet with his claim and started the DP off by VTLing WyIted, so based both on the result of his role and his behavior, I rule him out.
Pie has been on the WyIted bandwagon since the last DP. I wouldn't put it past him to do a bus like this, but I just don't see him sustaining it like this, so that is more of a behavioral read.
Earth pushing for a claim from WyIted last DP when he clearly wasn't ready to give one doesn't scream teammates to me. Again, more behavioral, but it's more based on likely team dynamics.
And Austin is more based on Mharman's results and my behavioral reads of him from the last DP.
Hence, we are all that remains. It's likely that reads on me are strictly behavioral at this point.
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Anyway, I'm off for the night. Looks like Luna's posting and I'd like to see more from him regardless.
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Miswrote that. I meant Austin's confirmed visit to Mharman
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Anyway, I assume this will end in a WyIted lynch at this point, which reduces the PoE pool significantly since he'll almost certainly flip scum. That makes Mharman obviously town, Pie town (he'd have to be bussing pretty hard, and while I wouldn't put it past him, I don't think he'd keep pushing it since DP1 like this), and Earth likely town. Luna's confirmed visit to Mharman suggests he's town as well, which leaves Luna and me by PoE.
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@Mharman
First off, good choice with NF.
Second, don't need to hear anything more than this:
My results? Last night I was targeted by Austin and Wylted. This means Austin is telling the truth and Wylted is implicated in a lie.
I guess it's worth giving WyIted a chance to respond, though at this point, it seems pretty blatant.
VTL WyIted
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@Mharman
Nah. Earth has no reason for such a misdirect. If they have no claim ready, it's a dumb risk. Clearly they didn't. Miller looked best in the moment to Wylted because he didn't have time to find something better- all he knew was that he was unlikely to get CC'd since no one SOP claimed it. That's why he chose it.No mafia team is putting Miller in their potential fake claims if they've spent time thinking about it. And since Wylted clearly didn't spend the time, I do not believe any teammate would have prompted Wylted to claim.
The more I keep thinking about the Miller claim, the less I like it. The timing of it was weird as well. WyIted has made a point of saying before that he doesn't think it should be an SOP claim, and if he had gotten it, I think he would have pushed back harder on claiming it, particularly if he wanted to be a target for the NK (I don't recall there being a lot of votes on him at any point, though there was a good deal of sus). As you say, the risk of claiming Miller went way down as we got later into the DP, so I can see why it might come off as a low risk choice at that point.
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@Mharman
Did any of you visit me last night? Be truthful.
Also no.
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@ILikePie5
Not risky at all imo. Easy fake claim.
I’d say the choice to claim that he visited Casey was risky, not so much the Neighborizer itself, since it necessarily draws attention to his actions as relates to the NK.
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@Earth
#38 rubs me the wrong way. I feel like an experienced (town) player shouldn't feel the need to clear up things that are "obvious."
Fair. I felt the need to be accurate about the framing of my statement, but I can understand why that would seem unnecessary.
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I should say “fortuitous if you are scum” - it’s obviously not fortuitous if you’re town.
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@WyIted
Alright. Suffice it to say that, though the Neighborizer claim has me on edge, the Miller claim seems plausible and overly risky enough that I buy it. The decision to claim that you visited Casey seems… fortuitous given that you now have expended your 1X role, which was the only way to confirm you. It’s also a risky claim given that you’re outright saying you visited the NK’d player. I think you’d potentially take both these risks, but the latter seems particularly unnecessary.
Anyway, appreciate the responses. I’ll think on this a bit.
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@WyIted
This would be easier if you’d posted a set of reads DP1, since I’m not sure where you’re coming from with putting Casey in PoE. I’m also unclear on why certain people aren’t included. Maybe walk me through how you came to this pool.
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@WyIted
This is such an odd fusion to have you be both a Miller and a Neighborizer. What’s the justification for the latter? And why were you scumreading Casey?
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@WyIted
The role is Miller but I have a 1x neighboring with it as well. I used the neighboring on Casey as inconvenient as that is.
Going to need some clarification.
So when you said you were the opposite of the opposite of the Miller, you meant you were just the Miller? Why phrase it that way?
While we’re at it, what do you mean by neighboring? Was this a Neighborizer role where you could recruit people to a private chat?
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@Mharman
@WyIted
By “everything” I mean what your role is called, what it does, the justification for it being paired with Michael Jackson’s Bad album, the lyric paired, and how you used your role, if it has any active components.
I agree with Mharman on this. You need to be forthcoming with all this info this DP.
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It is what it is at this stage. If he flips town and people want to scumread me for pushing him, I get it, but this was the call that made the most sense to me.
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@ILikePie5
I can see a case for Earth, don’t have much of a solid reason to read him. WyIted is a tenuous read as well, so I could see a case for shifting to either of them, but like you said, not a lot of time left.
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@Mharman
They’re both pretty behaviorally sus to me. Weird to say that, though I understand WyIted’s claim less, I’m leaning towards GP as the lynch still at this point. Just the lack of responsiveness and weird pushback doesn’t make a lot of sense, and I’m not sure what to make of his shift to townreading me.
My position on WyIted is more over what he’s hinting at than anything else. Maybe I’m basing this too much on the plausible existence of an investigative role, but at least his role seems to rely on something else being in the game.
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@AustinL0926
As for pushing me on the lynch because I’m passive, all I can say is the same things that you’ve already heard. I get that it was in response to some sussing from GP, but I pushed him without a wagon, which isn’t something I do as scum in any game I can remember.
That being said, I’ll claim if enough people push me. Limiting claims is a given this game based on the OP, but if it’s to prevent a mislynch, I’ll do what I have to do.
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Alright, took me a bit, but I’m caught up.
I don’t really get WyIted’s claim. It seems really weird to keep saying it this way, though I guess his intention is to strongly suggest and hope scum doesn’t get it. It’s a roundabout way to do it, but it’s also not what I’d expect from him as scum, I just don’t really know what to do with it. Regardless, whatever it is, it appears to affect investigations in some fashion, and my gutread on the claim is that it’s townie.
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@Mharman
You will receive a role based on your album- it might be related to the history, the meaning, the literal words, or other aspects of the album. No players will be Vanilla.Found this in the sign ups thread. Its relevant to two different conversations
Point taken. It’s plausible based on that phrasing that it could focus on a single song. I’m still wary of GP for other reasons, but the claim at least makes more sense now.
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@Greyparrot
@Mharman
I guess the lyrics are just the name of the ability.
I’m not sold on this yet. My justification doesn’t focus on the lyrics of one of the songs on my album, but on the band and what went into the album as a whole. That being said, if he was going to pick a song to focus on, the title track makes the most sense.
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@Greyparrot
Alright, guess we’re waiting then.
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@Greyparrot
And the justification for the Tree Stump?
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@Greyparrot
You got a response from Mharman when he posted his vote on you. If he and I aren’t enough, then I guess we’ll have to wait until we breach whatever threshold you believe is required.
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@Greyparrot
Sorry if I Lolled at you. It just seemed like an obvious Omgus from my pov.
The issue isn’t that you “lolled” at my response, it was that you just completely ignored the reasoning and have since ignored virtually every response you’ve received detailing why you’re getting sussed. If you want to call it an OMGUS, be my guest, but you’ve had lots of chances to respond to the substance of it and you haven’t taken any of them.
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