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Like I said yesterday, I’m going to be largely offline for much of the next few hours (a combination of a long High Holy Days service, the luncheon to follow with my family, and a dinner later - yeah, Jews eat a lot at these events and this is one of the biggest). I might catch it if you tag me, but I can’t guarantee how long it’ll take. I’ve already clarified where I’m at currently, and I’ll check in when I get a chance, but do not expect me to be regularly available.
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@Lunatic
HELL no lol. Casey is confirmed town, should be him
I’m fine with Casey choosing the lynch.
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@Cerulean
I think your reads are fair and I appreciate the detailed thoughts. I don’t think you’re going to get Luna onboard with coalescing around my choice, but Luna is also sussing Pie and, based on his response to me last night, Earth is in his PoE. Not sure how many others buy into his view (doesn’t seem like it’s common), but if we’re going to pick someone, it may be better to choose a person who isn’t actively scumread by anyone. I’m good with that being you or Earth at this point.
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@Mharman
You, sir, have made my morning. Glorious entry post, oh co-pilot my co-pilot.
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@Lunatic
Well, I appreciate the response even if I’m still pretty confounded by it.
Alright, I’m out.
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Anyway, it’s late, and I’ve got Rosh Hashanah services in the morning, so I’m going to have some spotty availability in the late morning/early afternoon. I’ll check in early and respond where I can.
And yes, I’m willing to put my top scumread down as a vote for tonight so that it’s not even slightly unclear:
VTL Moozer
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@Lunatic
Still here btw. Patiently waiting until people are ready to lynch either pie or whiteflame. I've laid out my arguments the best I can on that front, so in the mean time I'll just be lurking. If you have any questions I can answer them.
I’m baffled by this post. Pie claimed a role that will apparently be mod confirmed, and I’m still the only player with an alignment-investigative role in a game with a claimed Miller, yet somehow we’re still your strongest scumreads? If you’re scumreading us behaviorally, fine, whatever. We’ve done that dance. I’d like to know how you reach this conclusion with the information you have about our claims, since you just seem to be entirely dismissive of Pie’s potential confirmability.
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@ILikePie5
@Cerulean
Looks like a string of questions (thanks for leading those, Cerulean. Blind spot on my part since this is the first game I’ve seen where a Silenced player had unlimited posting) led to Pie claiming that he’ll somehow be mod confirmed, in which case I’m fine waiting to see that play out. The lack of mod confirmation of his Silencing was iffy to begin with, though I had to get that demon out of my head.
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@Cerulean
I’m exhausted and I’m probably going to knock off shortly after posting this and catching up, but I wanted to make sure I addressed your point about Earth.
Last DP, at least early on, I could see him using the Miller claim because he has jumped on risky fake claims before. That’s still true, even if the Miller claim specifically isn’t something I’ve seen him go for.
Since then, his behavior just hasn’t looked like I’d expect for him as scum. He largely accepted that the default lynch would fall to him if there wasn’t a viable alternative, and his reads and focus this DP just don’t come off as similar to what I’ve seen from him as scum. I think if he was using the Miller claim as cover, he’s done a perplexing job of it.
Beyond that, given the apparent absence of other negative utility roles on town (I guess that depends on your perspective on Ascetic) and my having a role that allows me to get alignment info on multiple targets, I buy that Austin would have a Miller along with my role, though I don’t like relying on modpsych for these things.
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@Cerulean
I can explain later. I’d just say it doesn’t fit his MO as precisely as I’d previously thought
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I don’t have a lot of time left tonight to post and I’m pretty tired from what’s been a long day, so I’ll let others decide on getting Cerulean’s claim at this point.
For me, the lynch this DP is between Moozer and Pie.
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@AustinL0926
You’re right, we didn’t use it that game, though I know that it wouldn’t have been announced.
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@Earth
I've found three games that used a Silencer.
You've mentioned Middle School Mafia where I had it as scum, where Moozer did announce it.
The Time Travel/Rants Mafia had one on town with JoeBob, but it was overwritten NP1 and wasn't used.
Then there was the Clash of Clans Mafia game where, again, I had it as scum. It was not announced.
As for whether Austin would announce it, I'm still puzzling over that, but my inclination now is to agree with you that Austin wouldn't treat the two roles (Tree Stump and Silencer) this differently just because one requires the player to be dead for it to factor.
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As for my position, I'm not fully dismissing Banana at this point, but I also don't think that she would claim RB in the way she did as scum. We haven't seen her play scum before, but that would be a pretty brazen tactic. Maybe I'm wrong, but for now at least, she's not obviously in my PoE. I'd say the same is true of Earth. The early Miller claim still has me townreading him a bit. I guess he could have guessed at the existence of an alignment investigative role (they are common and this game almost seems to invite both such a role and a tracker role, given the nature of incidents like this), but I still think it's riskier than I'd normally see from him. He's at least not an obvious choice for me, in the same vein as Banana.
That leaves Pie, Cerulean, Moozer and Luna. Cerulean is a bit of a gutread at this point, since I don't think he'd go all-out trying to pursue Owen that hard if he was scum and knew suspicion would fall back on him. I'd like to see his claim since he's the only unclaimed player in my PoE pool who can talk.
I've already given my two cents on both Moozer and Luna, neither of whom have really changed for me.
...but I'm rethinking Pie a bit. I've largely read him as behaviorally town, but something keeps bugging me. This is what was said of Casey in the OP:
Additional Information:Casey may post today, but not vote. They will be flipped at the end of the day.
I realize this was due to a different role (the Tree Stump). I realize that it activated after Casey was killed, so Austin had to notify us, otherwise it wouldn't make basic sense why Casey could still post after being NK'd. That being said, it's a posted restriction on what Casey can do. It's a mod confirmation that Casey can post, but not vote.
So... where's the additional information about Pie not being able to post and only able to vote? I've seen several iterations of a Silencer role. I know that some of them don't alert town that the person is Silenced, but those usually come with the caveat that the target has a limited number of posts available, otherwise the whole purpose of leaving town in the dark and getting a potential lynch out of the gambit is basically gone. I've also seen other games where it was announced publicly, under which circumstance it makes more sense that more posts would be allowed. I'm not sure how much we should rely on a lack of mod confirmation since the circumstances are clearly different, but I'm also not prepared to take Pie out of my PoE right now.
I also generally don't like these reads. This isn't the first time he's indicated that he's got Earth and Banana in his PoE, and while neither of them is solid town at this point, I think they have more than anyone else to shift them in the town pile (see above). I'm scumreading Moozer too, but I don't get these.
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@ILikePie5
I take that to mean that your PoE pool is:
Moozer
Banana
Earth
If I'm correct, VTL me and unvote.
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@iamanabanana
I haven’t seen you post in a while, certainly not since I claimed. If you’re still sussing me at this point (note that Earth is a claimed Miller, which strongly suggests the existence of some role that investigates for alignment), I’d like to know why.
Also, putting this out there generally, but I don’t want this DP coming down to the wire. We may not have much in the way of investigative information, but there is enough to start piecing things together and people should be giving their reads so we can start to coalesce around an option or two.
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@Earth
Is your Legacy role that great that you will spam votes?
Seems more like a method of communication to me.
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@Lunatic
I'm so tired of this argument. If you somehow still think I'm scum with no other claimed alignment-investigative roles on the table and you're not sussing Earth, then I sincerely don't know what to tell you. At this point, it looks like you're banking on Cerulean to be the Cop as a means to explain this, so I guess we'll wait to see if he CC's me.
Only thing I'll correct:
You gave a nice list of games that conveniently left out the last one where I was scum and VTNL'd in the end
I meant to say "where I was town", which was last game.
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@ILikePie5
My guess is that I've joined your scum pool based on those last few posts, which makes some sense. I can at least believe that, if someone's going to sus me, it might as well be someone also sussing Earth.
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@Lunatic
I’d like to know: are you sussing Earth now? His role basically requires the existence of a alignment-investigative role. If someone else claims one, we can address that, but with this information, my being scum is almost contingent on Earth being scum, too.
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@Lunatic
@Moozer325
@iamanabanana
Fine, I'll claim.
I am Pan Am Flight 103, and I'm the Dreamer, as Luna surmised (and I assume others did as well - I wasn't terribly subtle about it).
The cause of my incident was a terrorist attack, and so post-incident, an investigation was performed, eventually resolving to multiple countries being involved. The two Libyans were eventually charged and sentenced.
Because the investigation found multiple agents but never located the mastermind precisely, I'm the Dreamer with a twist: I can select three people and learn how many in that group are scum. In case people are interested, my targets were Casey, Cerulean and Moozer, but it failed, so I don't have any info.
I'd prefer not to claim my legacy role unless absolutely necessary.
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@Moozer325
If you want my claim, just tag me in your next post.
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@Lunatic
I'm not going to be quoting blocks of text anymore. I think our back-and-forth has gotten to the point where it's taken over the DP, so if you want to try and convince someone else to VTL me or get Casey to agree with you, then you're welcome to do so and I will claim. I won't respond to efforts to get me to out my claim until then.
You gave a nice list of games that conveniently left out the last one where I was scum and VTNL'd in the end (and it's certainly not a first for me to refuse to join a majority lynch on DP1), but the point that makes the least sense to me is this:
You take a game where there is a consequence for mafia to be part of the lunch and they are both no where near the lunch and you don’t find that somewhat scummy?
What I don't understand about this line of argumentation is that it applies both ways. Town has the ability to choose one of three numbers. Regardless of who is scum and whether they were on the lynch, one of those numbers leads to the consequence of town being given information about them. So, when you say there's a consequence for staying on the lynch, I agree... insofar as, if there had been two scum on the lynch, the majority would have given more information to town. Doesn't mean it was always bound to be that way. Unless you can foresee two town members guessing there were four people in this game who would guess at two scum, I don't see how that follows.
Again, you cut me off before I could join any wagon when I actively promised I would make a decision at a specific appointed time. Cerulean pointed it out, too. The fact that you actively prevented me from doing so, with full knowledge of when I'd be back, doesn't make me sus. I'm not framing you as quick hammering, I'm stating that you literally didn't give me a chance to post despite there being time to do so and my stating I would be back to post. Quick or not, your decision prevented me from posting, and now you're claiming that my not posting makes me sus.
If you want to sus me for not being with you on the Owen lynch, go ahead. I'm sure people would love to know why my not being on that mislynch makes me scummy. I didn't say that I townread Owen. I did say that his confirmable role was the only one on the table and he shouldn't have been eliminated DP1 without at least demonstrating it. I get that we just played a game where a confirmable role was town, that does not mean we should assume a confirmable role is scum.
If you want to sus me for wanting to no lynch over lynching Owen, something I literally did last game as town for similar reasons, then, please, explain how that works. I don't particularly care if you think it's anti-town. It's literally in my most recent town meta.
As for Pie, I'm not making excuses for him and I don't know why you'd ask me to.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it: I made clear where I wanted votes to go with my reads. When I made a push on him early, you scumread me for it. When I took off the vote, stated that he was my preferred lynch for the DP (recognizing that it was not a firm read isn't waffling, and the post ended with me saying "So, yes, Moozer is my choice among these four" - again, weird that you're leaving pieces out), and then went away for a little over an hour, you're right that I had not yet applied my vote to him again. And now you're scumreading me for that. To top it off, you keep ascribing different degrees of aggressiveness to what these two VTLs would be, and weirder still, you're treating the early vote on Moozer (which I never said was aiming for a lynch and outright stated was seeking his legacy role and clarification thereof) as more aggressive than joining a wagon to seek a lynch. I don't understand that logic at all.
Name a recent game where I have pursued you this hard as scum. I'll wait.
Chess Mafia. People are welcome to reread DP2. Yes, the mathematician claim was good. You didn't vote me in that DP, but you mounted a similarly charged defense.
Beyond that, it's just very strange to read some of your responses. You voted me first thing in this DP after I made a negative post about you. If that's not an OMGUS, I don't know what is (note: I haven't put a vote on you yet, and I've said my vote is going elsewhere, so where's my OMGUS again?). Pointing out you haven't trusted me from the start doesn't change that. Pointing out that your softclaim somehow makes you town just because it was a pseudo-CC is a minor point in your favor, but there's plenty else that pushes me the other way. TBH, I don't know why you claimed, but I'd read it as trying to get towncred.
Both you and pie backed off of Moozer AFTER I had called you out on it... And I am not frustrated that you didn't have a vote on him
I backed off Moozer after he claimed his legacy role and puzzled over it for a while (I literally stated my reasoning here), but sure, go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back for drawing attention away from him. You've directly said multiple times that part of the reason you're sussing me is that I didn't post a vote. And why yes, I did actually provide substantial reasoning for why I was sussing Moozer well before the end of the DP. Just because it was written with uncertainty doesn't mean it wasn't made at that time.
There hasn't been any recent games for you to show stubborness, because you haven't gotten this much pressure this early in recent games where you have been scum. This is new territory for you.
Dude, people have pushed me for a claim in DP2 plenty, and I've given it as both town and scum. Where are you getting this? How is this new?
I'm sure you'll have plenty of responses. I could see a world in which you do all this and are town. That being said, there's so much out of context quoting here. You've taken to pointing out that I'm simultaneously so good at being scum that I can't be found out while stating all the ways that my behavior is scummy. You keep pointing to aspects of my behavior you think are scummy while ignoring the ways they clearly don't apply. I don't know if that's scummy, but it's weird and it's setting me off.
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@Cerulean
I suppose, yes. The interesting thing is that Moozer didn't bring any of this up at all when he was pushing Lunatic, right? If you think someone has a super powerful legacy role when they get chopped and that's why you're pushing them, you could just... say that, right? Ask out loud to the thread "Hey so does it look like Lunatic is trying to get himself lynched to anyone else, does he have like a good legacy role or something?"But everything Moozer was saying seemed to suggest he genuinely believed Lunatic was scum.
Yep, that's part of it as well. It was all just dropped on us in his first post in this DP.
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@Earth
I think you aren't reading between the lines. My legacy role activates upon my death, NK or lunch. If Lunatic mentioned his activates upon getting lynched, then that might be a potential slip.
My point is that I don't think he did. From what I've seen, Moozer stated that he thought Luna's role activated upon getting lynched. I haven't seen Luna confirm or deny that.
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@Cerulean
It doesn't seem like a horrendous chain of logic, if I'm following right. "Lunatic looks like he's trying to get lynched" -> "Lunatic has a role that benefits from being lynched" -> "Lunatic's legacy is something that is either able to or specifically triggers after being lynched." Granted, it's not right since the first part wasn't true, but it makes some degree of sense if you perceive the first step in the moment.
...except that the lynch train had long since fallen off of Luna and Moozer remained on it just the same. I also don't get where Moozer believed his role would activate on lynch. Those are the two aspects I don't get.
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@Earth
I'm not sure why you'd believe that Luna could use his legacy role if he was lynched.Hang on, where did Lunatic say this? Assuming mafia have legacy roles, they can only use them if they get lynched. My legacy role works when I die, lynched or NK'd.
This was a point made in response to Moozer. My point was that his entire strategy hinged on Luna's legacy role somehow being usable if lynched. Apparently, yours falls into that category, but my point to Moozer was that that is an odd assumption to have for someone else's role.
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I’m going to focus up on work until 5, so I’ll address any responses thereafter.
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All that being said, I know that means the scum team would be the same as last time, and I'm not banking on that. If I had to pick, it would be Moozer I'd lynch this DP. In spite of all the back-and-forth with Luna, I can much more readily see a world in which he was town than I could Moozer.
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@Casey_Risk
Whiteflame, Cerulean, I have a question for both of you. I want you both to take a step back and consider everything as objectively as possible. Who are your top scumreads right now?
You have really good timing, I was just starting to type that out.
It might be a poor assumption, but considering the info we got from Austin about Mafia having a JOAT (I'd categorize that as pretty weak info), I think we can at least assume that there were one or zero scum on the lynch. We know you're not scum. I don't believe Earth is scum, nor am I convinced on Banana, though given that she and Moozer apparently had the same target in Pie, that may complicate things. I don't believe Cerulean is scum (I honestly just don't buy that he'd go that hard on someone who was going to flip town, and his posts this DP have me at least putting him in null territory), which means Luna is my top scumread among those on the lynch.
As for off of it, that leaves me, Moozer, and Pie. I frankly just don't believe it's Pie. He's still only a very slight townread for me, mainly because I could see a world in which he is the target of multiple night actions whether he's scum or town, but the apparent Silencing points to scum activity against him. Maybe he's faking it. It's unusual for someone who is Silenced to have so many posts (usually, they're very limited in the number of votes they can cast), but I also don't think Austin's used this role before, so I can see him just getting an unlimited number of votes. So in part, I trust Pie's continued scumread of Moozer, and in part, I recognize that Moozer's given himself an alibi for visiting Pie that just rubs me the wrong way. I'm not sure why he'd townread Pie in particular.
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@Cerulean
Then you should have said something sooner? I thought he was scum giving up by the end. He was still up there even before you left.
I did say something, once in my reads and once in response to Casey about Owen. Didn't change anything, didn't expect it would since everyone seemed so gung ho about it.
I do have thoughts about the info we get. It's possible that the information isn't necessarily based on the consensus answer, but rather the proportion of correct answers. Thinking of it this way- if we got the right answer 5-3 vs. 8-0, we might get more information from that 8-0. So it's possible that 2 could have been correct, but because only half the game was on it, the info wasn't entirely useful.It might be worthwhile, this phase, for everyone to stack on a single choice. We let someone towny be the one to answer and everyone else bandwagons. The idea there is that either we get very useful information that confirms we were correct, or we essentially get worthless information that, at the very least, confirms the answer we picked was wrong.
It's worth considering. We can at least try to figure it out and see if we can get some insight into what the information we have indicates.
This is a very bad look for Lunatic, in my opinion. There were 40 minutes left in the phase. There's absolutely no reason to hammer that early when WF explicitly asked for more time, especially if you think it's wrong. It's just bad form.Do you need a timeline? Here's a timeline:424 at 8:52 PM: WF says he's starting a class in "about 10 minutes" (9:00 PM, presumably) and that he'll "be on that for an hour" (until 10:00 PM, presumably)495 at 9:57 PM: Lynch happens504 at 10:04 PM: WF comes back(Times are in my timezone, of course. The principle remains the same.)There was no reason to expect to come back and see Day already over because there would have been half an hour left. WF probably already pointed this out, but I'm a bit steamed about making an honest-to-god activity read because you couldn't bother to be patient.
Thank you. Sincerely, this has been so frustrating to argue about.
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@Lunatic
Bullsh1t. That wasn't my point at all and you know it. My point was that as town you would be more willing to look at moozer equally as being town. While I did use the word "passive" in context it meant something different as to what you are trying to spin it as. This is what I said:"Not nearly as passive as he usually feels to me, I feel like hes making a mountain out of a molehill with the moozer claim. It piggy backing off of pie who feels scummy to me, makes me less sure about him. Usually whiteflame is much better at catchign scum slips, this doesn't feel like a slip though on moozer part. I just don't like the read, and it doesn't feel like town whiteflame to me."This clearly indicates that I was scum reading you for not trying to weigh both options, something that I felt you would do as town. And I didn't use the word lazy at all. You adding that for a bit of mis-direction is amusing though.
You actually did use the word "lazy" here. You also said "opportunistic." So then your point was that I should have equivocated more on Moozer... but you're simultaneously frustrated that I didn't have a vote on him (which is where it would have been) at the end of the DP? Not helping your point.
Now that we know I didn't say the "lazy part" it makes sense yeah? You were super aggressive with moozer but not there for the entirety of the last day phase to push a case on him? Seems a lot like my theory about you trying to make town look bad by mislynching so you can cast blame on them, meanwhile you were literally posting multiple times during the last day. But just because I think you would weigh both the town and scum option of someone doesn't mean I think you would avoid making a decision entirely.
Again, you're calling me out for not posting a vote, which would have been inherently aggressive (especially since, by that point, I would have been trying for a lynch) while acknowledging that it was my "super aggressive" response to Moozer that set you off in the first place? Really?
So for you not to be scum reading ana the claimed roleblocker, I am guessing your "theory" is going to have something to do with a redirector being in play
I have a pretty strong behavioral townread on Banana, but I'm willing to at least consider her. Notably, I've been distracted today and my posts have been focused on you and whether I should claim, so I haven't had time for much else.
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@Lunatic
I don't see any obvious soft claim in that post. Also earth and casey have now both mentioned that your behavior was scummy by being there to vote right at the bell. Banana pointed out the scumminess with pie doing it, but it also had applied to you. Thats three different people who saw the same thing as me scummy. Just because they aren't voting you, you won't claim? Come on, even I claimed, when it was virtually only you asking me for a claim. Moozer hasn't even asked for my claim yet this phase. That's a bit stubborn. I can see not claiming dp1, I didn't because I wanted to bait a scum role, but then figured scum probably guessed my role anyway so I claimed this phase. The longer you refuse to claim while being scum read the scummier it will make you look.
Well, then you're not looking very closely at that post, especially since it comes early. If Casey wants my claim, let them call for it. Doesn't even require a vote because Casey can't vote anyway. Call me stubborn all you want, call me scummy for it, I really don't care.
I am not dismissing your wifom out of hand, I am dismissing it because it comes off as a poor excuse and I would have to believe in a million coincidences. My "wifom" actually has a well reasoned argument to it that points to suspicious behavior. For you to dismiss my wifom out of hand you have to admit that you are at fault for something. Being busy isn't a crime of course, but can you agree that it is very rare for you of all people to miss out on the end of a day phase like that? Or leave it to an hour remaining? Again my argument is complimenting you, because even if you had I know you would have been prepared enough to start setting up your lynch target way in advance. Moozer wasn't even a viable option for a lynch when you were suggesting it, and had little to no pressure. You were going to leave the day phase knowing you were busy to an hour remaining with no plan in place, just to lecture those who did vote, so a no lynch wouldn't happen. You don't see how that comes accross as scummy, or how you being there to vote immediately after the phase ends seems super convienent? And that you and pie (both the most active posters) both somehow missed the oppertunity to place a final vote, and then both convienently voted the exact same answer with 2 scum being on the wagon... There is no way your telling me these million coincidences aren't scummy, and that they happen to be just coincidences.
...Really dude? A million coincidences? We both know that's an absurd framing, let's not kid ourselves. There's literally only one coincidence you called out and I telegraphed it openly. Also, let's not kid ourselves about my "missing out" on the end of the DP. I was on for the end of the DP. I didn't "miss out" on anything beyond getting my vote in before you hammered. I didn't even "miss out" on "setting up my lynch target way in advance," something that you actively sussed me for doing. And now you're sussing me for not doing it? What? In this case, what you're doing is characterizing me as someone who would never do this as town and that I somehow would do this as scum. I don't think that's a compliment, personally, but what do I know? Also, I'm really so done with this "convenient timing" argument. I posted two hours ahead of the end of the DP giving the precise time I would be available. I posted as soon as I was actually available. I sincerely do not give a fuck if you believe me.
The alternative to me voting owen was a no lynch, which everyone freaks out about is the worst thing town can do dp1, cerulean went into major analysis of why last phase, austin made a huge point about it in the endgame, and its something in general people agree is not a good thing. Imagine the one time I did advocate for a no lynch recently was in the last game. And I was scum. Now I participate in a lynch with dwindling time and you are using that against me? Sorry for not thinking that is the strongest argument. Especially when you yourself, one of the most active posters, somehow misses the opportunity to set up a better lynch target but is there immediately after the lynch takes place to vote on austins quiz and immediately close the thread. Like for you to cast a stone at me when I was openly not even scum reading own, when you had every oppertunity for 3 days to establish who you thought could be a better lynch, is beyond hypocritical.
I know what Cerulean said. I know what you were saying and what everyone else said about not wanting to no lynch. That still would have been my preference over lynching someone with a confirmable role in DP1. As for how we positioned ourselves at the end of the last DP, let's compare. I gave an extensive set of reads and directly sussed Moozer. It was confirmed by multiple people, but you keep leaving it out of these responses. Then, I said I would be offline for a little over an hour. During that hour, you hammered, but somehow it's my fault that I only returned to place that vote on Austin's quiz. Whatever. Your position, meanwhile, was to largely townread Owen throughout the DP, but still willingly hammer him in the end. It's the fact that you weren't scumreading him but still willing to do that that sets me off. I don't see the hypocrisy.
This is probably the most hypocritical part of your ENTIRE post. First thing it ignores the entire premise of "Role confirmation =/= Affiliation confirmation" Which was the ENTIRE moral of the last game. Being able to confirm yourself doesn't mean you are town. I proved that last game and several people brought that up this game. His role wasn't even why I was town reading him, I was town reading him entirely based on behavior and saying things like "How can I avoid this next time" and all his pleas to not be lynched seeming exactly like how he was town in his first game and got mislynched. But the hypocritical part is you are now doing what you are accusing me of doing, using your town read of owen to get town cred yourself, only you have the added benefit of having conveniently been absent for the most important part of the phase that forces you into a decision.
So, let me get this straight. Because "Role confirmation =/= Affiliation confirmation" and we learned that lesson so well last game, the best choice we could possibly make this game is to immediately vote off the only claimed role confirmable player? Do I have that right? Also, my so-called "convenient absence" came well after I'd already said I was unwilling to vote Owen off. So, please, continue straw-manning me as though I'm somehow using my absence from the vote against you.
I have high standards for you as a player, because I have seen what you can do. I think you are one of the smartest mafia players we have on the site right now, and are more than capable of providing a strong case for a lynch on a player you want to get lynched, far enough in advance to you knowing you would be absent. Are you trying to tell me you wouldn't or couldn't do that? I don't think I am ignoring large swaths of anything.
*sigh* Again, I did provide my case for voting Moozer. It's there, in black and white, in a long set of reads that I posted last DP. I appreciate that you think highly of me, but why the fuck do you keep leaving out my reads and claiming they don't exist?
Tell me honestly. If I am scum, do you think I would be pursuing both of the hardest people to mislynch in the game, starting in day phase 1? You just saw me play as scum last game. Is my behavior in this game at all similar to that game, where I played it extremely safe every single day phase, and let town lead every single lynch on relatively safe targets to coast for a win? See where you are losing me is I know you see this, and you even mentioned town reading me for claiming a third role prevention role after two had already claimed. As scum I have a plethora of options to fake claim, not only do I claim without any real pressure, but I claim something that can be seen as scummy since there are other roles similar to mine in the game, and then I go on to pursue the two most active players in the game, and you have to somehow spin that I am doing all this with the intention to play as mafia the hardest way possible for literally 0 reason. And for all the talk about OMGUS its funny you are the one literally omgusing. My first post in the game I cast suspicion on you and pie, and I have been consistent with those reads all throughout the entire game. You actually town read me at one point, and seemingly only recently switched off of that town read when trying to use the owen lynch against me. If anyone is OMGUSing here, it's clearly you.
Let's not kid ourselves, dude, this is exactly what you've done in previous games. It is not new for you to push this hard on me. Just because you didn't play this way last game doesn't mean you've never played this way as scum. Particularly in games when you're being actively scumread, you try to put that effort down as hard as you can. To your credit, you're not being as rude about it this time, but this is hardly a first, and I'm seeing a lot of whataboutism (seriously? I said I was scumreading you early in the DP and literally your first response was to call me out and VTL me) in your responses that looks awfully familiar. And yes, I was townreading you last DP for your softclaim. Things have changed based on your behavior since then, and I don't think an Ascetic claim makes you look particularly clean.
I don't think this works out for you the way you are hoping it will. Being stubborn for the sake of stubborness doesn't really fit town whiteflame's MO. Even I didn't play it this hard, and had a clear reason for not claiming dp1. I never really cared about your claim anyway though, asking for your claim is for the benefit of you trying to do something to prove that you aren't scum. I was scum reading you for behavior. You claiming was for the help of everyone else in town reading you. If you wanna die on this hill of your own making that's on you.
See, it's responses like this that have me most on edge about you. You keep saying all these things I don't normally do. OK, I have a history as both town and scum. Where, as scum, have I shown this degree of stubbornness? Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not dying on this hill. That doesn't mean that your vote alone is going to sway me. If enough people want my claim, I'll claim.
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@iamanabanana
I'll add my vote to whiteflame. I don't see why he is any more special than the rest of us who have claimed.
Generally speaking, my tendency is to avoid claiming if and only if I have good reason to keep my claim unknown. It's not that I'm special, it's that I'm doing my best to help town and I think that claiming would actively hurt town. It's fine if you want to vote me anyway, especially if you don't believe me, but I'll point out that, as scum, I make a solid effort to draft fake claims early and often and I'm usually not this obstinate about claiming.
That being said, if I get a third vote, I'll claim.
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@Casey_Risk
I have a few thoughts on the situation. Tbh, I'm still not sure how I feel about you, but there's a particular reason I'm not scumreading you as hard as Luna is right now. That being said, I would actually like to know vaguely what you did last night, since you're willing to share.
I was roleblocked. My action failed.
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@Casey_Risk
Considering that you are the only town confirmed player who's still technically in the game, you're the one I want to hear from most on this issue. If you really want my claim, I'll give it. I'd strongly prefer to wait one more DP but, if you do need more information, I can provide specifics about what happened during the last NP on my end (which doesn't require me to full claim, though it further alludes to my role).
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Also, one more thought to add that I think everyone should take note of from Luna:
He called me out last DP saying that I was too readily voting Moozer and that I would be more likely to be, in his words, "passive" and "lazy." Now, he's calling me out for not having voted (again, said I would as soon as my class was done, and Luna specifically was responsible for ending the DP before then), which... I guess doesn't fit my MO anymore? Luna is clearly fishing hard to try to sus me, but he's actively being contradictory with it at this point, and he keeps ascribing a certain playstyle to me that seems to shift with the tides. If you guys are buying this argument (it's literally all over the place) and you can't interpret my claim from where I softed it last DP, I'll claim, but this is just ridiculous.
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@Lunatic
So Whiteflame still hasn’t claimed yet, just provided a bunch of wifom about why he missed the vote. Nothing changes the fact about how he was convienently there to be vote either way, and why he let the day phase go so long without letting giving a final thoughts and analysis post beforehand if he knew he was going to cut it close.Pie is going to avoid claiming I guess by faking being silenced.Wf needs more votes. Also I think it’s funny he’s actually fossing me for not omgusing moozer. It’s ironic considering how many people were accusing me of OMGUS last day phase without fully understanding what OMGUS was for whiteflame to say it’s scummy that I am not doing that lol. Yeah moozer is being an idiot but he isn’t this aggressive as scum, I literally just played a scum game with him. Also I still buy his role with all the role prevention being in the game. He’s not town confirmed but until I have a reason to not suspect the two biggest fish right now, pie and whiteflame, I’m not gonna really focus on anyone else. Earth banana moozer and cerulean all seem townier than whiteflame and pie do.
OK, so let's start with the obvious:
I'm not claiming just because you have a vote on me. If people want my claim, they can push me. I will say, I softed my claim last DP, so people are welcome to look back at post #420 (nice, didn't even plan that) and see if they can figure it out.
As for this post, I just love how this works. So your argument is that I'm engaging in WIFOM when your whole argument is exactly that. I'm responding to your WIFOM accusations. Nothing you've said so far about my behavior makes me inherently scummy, and I'm noticing that your efforts conveniently leave out large swaths of what I actually posted last DP (including an extensive set of reads and a specific person who I thought should be the lynch) to focus on the one thing I didn't do, and notably, that that one thing was what you, specifically, cut me off from doing. Like, sincerely, what did I have to do to satisfy you here? Post a vote on a non-existent wagon?
Also, what even is this final paragraph? I gave specific reasons for why I'm sussing Luna that he's just strawmanning at this point. I'm not going to address a bad faith response that doesn't even engage with my points.
Also the distinction between people who voted two scum vs and you and pie is that you weren’t on the lynch or any lynch. Both you and pie were the largest posters in the game and had no reason not to have had plenty of time to vote. It therefor seems intentional that you didn’t vote on purpose so you could cast stones at the lynch that happened by voting two scum being on it knowing if there wasn’t two scum on it, it would mess with the results and Austin would give us less information. Cerulean and Casey both participated on the wagon and if they are townies have the right to be suspicious of the wagon. The first thing you did when you came into dp2 Whiteflame was say it’s wierd people voted for Owen as if there was really another option besides no lunching at that point. It makes your lack of participation on the lynch even scummier. Again I fully think town Whiteflame (even if busy) is prepared enough to set up his final vote I’ll advance. The way it went down just makes it look so shady.
Great, more WIFOM. Because Pie and I weren't on the obvious mislynch and hadn't actively voted for someone else who definitely wasn't going to be the lynch, we're somehow sus. Luna jumps through a lot of hoops here to try to find a way to make us look sus. I'll note that if we were on other lynch wagons, it wouldn't have changed this calculus (literally, it's exactly the same whether we're on a wagon or not), so Luna is now scumreading us regardless of whether we voted or not. At this point, nothing would have satisfied him beyond us being party to this obvious mislynch.
As for voting Owen, I'd made myself perfectly clear when I gave out my reads and in direct response to Casey. In both cases, I said I was unwilling to vote Owen. If had gotten to the end of the DP and Owen was the only viable lynch, I would have preferred to no lynch despite what literally everyone was saying. It was a bullshit lynch on a person who at least had a confirmable role, notably something scant few people have claimed to have. You can justify it all you want on the basis that we had no other options, but don't blame me just because you made an obviously bad call.
Also, this is one of several times you've done this and I'm going to call it out directly: this is not the first game you've tried this tactic of saying how you have certain expectations of my behavior and then call me out for not doing them. Hell, this isn't the first game you've ignored large swaths of what I posted, or where you've pushed back this hard on me sussing you and then proceeded to OMGUS me, notably all behaviors I've seen you do specifically to me as scum.
Time for you to claim man
No thanks.
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@Moozer325
I found this from Austin on the first DP post:Each player's role has two parts - a regular role, and a legacy role. The legacy role will activate on death if and only if that player has met an activity requirement - 25 posts in the previous day phase.I took that to mean that it also activated upon lynch. Of course, Lunatic has stuck with the shtick, so I’m just very confused at this point.Like I said, I pushed it too hard. I would have joined the Owen wagon but by the time I got back on he had already been hammered. I know that’s a lane excuse, but it’s all I’ve got.
...except, presumably, that's not what your PM says and it's not what people have been saying about their legacy roles when pushed. I get that it's possible based on the OP alone, but you have more information than that with regards to when these things tend to activate.
I have no idea how I'm reading this, but this reasoning is just off and I'm surprised I'm the only one bringing it up.
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@Lunatic
Time for you to claim man
Could you give me a second instead of acting like a broken record? I said I'm working and you're still pinging me over and over.
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@ILikePie5
So I've been slammed with work this morning - a colleague from The Netherlands is here and we don't see them very often - but I want to get a clear indication of what's going on.
It's clear you have some restriction on your posting and, from what I can tell, it seems that you're Silenced. It's unusual for someone who is Silenced to be able to post more than a couple of times. If you are unrestricted, please VTL the target you think is most sus and unvote. If you are restricted in some way, don't post in response and I'll come back with some analysis of your posts so far later.
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@Earth
I'm sussing Cerulean too. I just think it's kinda odd you would ask wait to wait til the very last moments for you to post your thoughts before the hammer. Why? There wasn't much time left, so what were you planning on accomplishing?
Why is it becoming a trend for people to mischaracterize what I did at the end of the last DP?
I was very clear what my thoughts were. I wrote up an expansive set of reads and gave my reasoning for my preferences many hours earlier. If you want me to quote those posts for you, I can. I was also fairly clear that I was busy a lot of the day yesterday, hence I got out a lot of my thoughts when I could.
Yes, I waited (and ended up not having time to) put my vote down on someone, and I’ll note that the reason for that was, in part, that no one else was putting a vote down on Moozer. Many of you moved on from any consideration of his lynch for reasons I still don’t understand. I’m not going to start a wagon on someone who clearly isn’t going to get lynched in the waning hours of the DP. So I’ll ask you: why do you feel I’m sus just for not applying my vote to a nonexistent wagon?
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@Earth
And you are silenced, I presume?
Looks like it. That would explain why scum didn't kill Pie.
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@Earth
@Lunatic
@Casey_Risk
I'm having a hard time understanding why Earth and Casey both seem to be buying into what Luna's saying because it's pretty baffling. Luna's straight up ignoring that I said I was coming back before the end of the DP, even gave a clear indication of when I was coming back and what I would do when I did return (I straight up said I was leaning toward a Moozer vote and that I was unwilling to lynch Owen DP1), and that he hammered anyway. If I "didn't want to be implicated in the lynch" as he says, then I planted my flag with well over an hour to spare.
I got online and posted the moment my class was done. You can believe it or not, but I gave you guys a heads up. Also, I find it absolutely baffling that people are scumreading me for posting after time ended. Many of you, particularly this group of 3 people, know how careful I am as scum and at least Luna knows how closely I monitor scum chat because I've been scum in several of his games. In what world would I miss Discord messages and just post in response to a much earlier question from Cerulean? Can someone explain that to me?
Also, let's be clear about this: four people said that there were 2 scum on the lynch. It wasn't just Pie and me, it was Cerulean and Moozer as well. If you guys are going to spend time sussing us like this over our decision to say there were that many scum on the lynch, then explain to me why they aren't being sussed equally.
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@Lunatic
Alright, let's move onto whatever this is.
Starting with an OMGUS vote. Love that. I'll get to this when I get another opportunity in my morning.
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@Moozer325
Okay, right off the bat I’ll clarify what the heck was happening last DP. It struck me early on that Luantic was acting very weird, almost purposefully scummy. I thought about a possible Jester, but then I saw that the game was “a classic 2v7” and I took that to mean that there were no third parties.The only option was that Lunatic was trying to draw the lynch on to him because he knew he had a really good legacy role. I’ll leave it to him to see if my prediction was right, but I’m about 90% sure about this one. I wish he has tried to draw the NK instead, but that was his call.I trusted him enough as an experienced player, so I went along with it. I figured that we we’re almost certainly going to get a mislynch DP1, and if we are already going to mislynch, it would still be nice to get a good legacy role out of that.In retrospect, I definitely pushed it too hard, but what’s done it done. Like with all of my screw-ups, you don’t have to agree with my reasoning, but I didn’t do it out of pure stupidity.
So, I'm going to start with this... and honestly, I don't even know what to make of this post because I can't understand your thinking.
You have stated that you have a legacy role that activates on death, likely after an NK. I know that's how my legacy role works, so I'm not sure why you'd believe that Luna could use his legacy role if he was lynched. It also just generally doesn't seem like something Luna was trying to do. I thought he was behaving pretty scummily as well, but if he was actively trying to draw the lynch, he could have done much better than he did. All that aside, when you saw that no one else was joining you on his wagon, I'm not sure why you'd continue to pursue it. What's the point if you're not even able to execute said lynch?
I don't know why anyone, particularly Luna who is the subject of this, hasn't responded to this. It's particularly baffling since Luna has chosen to go after Pie and I again this hard as though Moozer just isn't here.
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In any case, it's late and I'm going to bed. We'll pick this up tomorrow.
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@Earth
I can understand that given how doggedly Cerulean went after Owen, though in fairness, I don't think he'd do that as scum given that he'd know the flip would implicate him. I have greater reason for pursuing Luna's claim today, given the timing of his hammer (a short while before I said I'd come back) and the fact that he said beforehand that his only reason for sussing him was that there were three role prevention roles. He hedged a lot in his last post, saying that he saw him as town, but that he was the best of a set of bad options. Seemed like he was giving himself more space from the end result.
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