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@iamanabanana
It's relevant to the theme of the game. Everyone in this game should be an Indian politician. There will be at least two people with politicians that are somehow outliers, which will result in a theme split between them and players who are a part of town this game. As Pie said in the OP, though, those two will also be able to ask him about the existence of certain other politicians and roles in the game, so we should expect that they will fashion some fake claims so as not to stand out. Part of our goal will be to suss out the fake claims from the real ones.
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@iamanabanana
Generally speaking, people tend not to roleplay in these games. On occasion, someone will do so in order to suggest what their character is or just for fun. It's never played all that big of a role in these games from my experience.
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@iamanabanana
I have played jackbox which has a game where you have to figure out aliens among your friends.
I've played that one too, I think it's called Push the Button. I'd say that bears more similarity to Among Us than Mafia, but both function based on the same basic premise: find the people who are undermining the majority in the game and either vote to lynch them or otherwise eliminate them. In a game with 9 players, there are likely two scum to find (sometimes there's a third party as well), and we'll have to figure them out by looking at their behavior and claims once those start rolling out.
Couple of things to bear in mind:
Usually a good idea to keep a tight hold on information about your character and role unless you have good reason to give them out (e.g. they're negative utility to town), though even that is often disputed. That being said, there might be efforts to push for so-called "soft claims" where you would give more generalized information that helps narrow down your character or vaguely indicates that your role is somehow confirmable (e.g. you can do something the mod will confirm or something unique to that role). It's not a given that you should do either of these things, just letting you know how this has played out in other games.
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Ended up crashing pretty hard last night, so my apologies for not posting more beyond my opening post. Seems like everyone's posted at least once since then, so props to everyone for being more active this time - I think it'll make for a more interesting game.
I would like to know if anyone's more familiar with Indian politicians, at least generally. I don't want to lean on theme analysis this game (I know I often do that, but especially when I don't know the theme well at all, I tend to do some research into the topic and set aside theme for a bit to focus on other issues), but if someone does have more insight, it would be helpful to know before we start getting claims.
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@AustinL0926
hopefully we get an active DP1 this time, the last few games were a bit underwhelming
Yeah, I’d really like to improve on that this game. It’s led to some hasty or last minute lynches that only harmed town.
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Hey, back at it with a (hopefully) working site! I know absolutely nothing about this theme, so this should be interesting. How’s everyone doing?
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@JoeBob
He talked about slowly moving off the site in one of his forum posts
Keyword there is “slowly.” Didn’t expect him to vanish.
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@Owen_T
I can reach out on Discord. He just vanished off the site for some reason.
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@Lunatic
did you protect me or moozer np2?
Protected Moozer. I didn't really trust your claim and figured there was a non-zero chance JoeBob might Vig you.
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@Lunatic
You did great btw thanks for the carry and sorry for doubting you
It's all good. Glad your Watcher claim ended up doing some good, even if it led to Owen's mislynch first.
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@JoeBob
YeaIn my opinion you were definitely town MVP, which is why I was glad when you targeted moozer to protect
Appreciate that. I considered just doing nothing, but figured Moozer was my strongest townread and might get some valuable results (he did, but no one believed him). Pie would probably have had your number if he'd survived, good choice for the first NK. He had Supa pegged before I did as well.
Although I am proud of thinking of that fake claim on my own, as it almost brought me to the win
It was a really good one, particularly after the Vesuvius flip. I didn't sus you at all for your character claim, so props on that.
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@JoeBob
we were actually told it before the game started
Makes sense. I figured scum were given at least some information and, absent fake claims, this seemed most likely.
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@JoeBob
GG everyone. That was a nice gambit on your part, JoeBob, though the big problem with your claim was that Vader's flip should have given a pretty solid basis for believing that scum had a limited pool of RBs. If I had survived into DP3, I would have sussed you pretty hard for saying you'd been RB'd, since scum would have been more likely to do that NP1 than to sit on it for NP2. Still, it wouldn't have been an easy choice, so well played.
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I was going to call it a night, but I guess the hammer happened.
Not much to say at this point, tbh. I still think it comes down to Owen and Luna, and if I had to pick one, it'd be Owen based on how he breadcrumbed his claim in DP1 and just that it's a strange role to give the dawn of an empire.
Moozer and JoeBob should definitely act tonight. I won't say who I'm going to BG and I won't suggest specific targets for either of you.
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@Lunatic
Actually I was only being asked for a range if I remember correctly and everyone was giving ranges I gave my full date.
I’ll take your word for it. It was later in the DP and by then, most of the given claims were individual years rather than ranges. You did give your year rather than a range, but I figured in part that that was a response to being placed at L-1.
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@Moozer325
I don't see a way that Vader isn't scum based on his claim and mine, but if he somehow flips town, Casey and I should be high on everyone's shitlist.
As for my perspective, Casey's been calling him out longer than I have, so I'm townreading them behaviorally. If I'm going to sus a Vanilla claim, it won't be Casey's.
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Both Luna and Owen claimed their years as late as possible (Owen about a day before Luna, but notably without any other claims in between), and while Owen did say that his role doesn't make much sense, it's odd to say that after having seen Casey claim Vanilla off of a relatively weak justification in a similar vein. Definitely stands out.
Good news: since JoeBob saved his Vig, we don't really have to know which of them it is. Could just shoot one and lynch the other.
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@Lunatic
@Vader
@JoeBob
@Casey_Risk
@Moozer325
Alright, as promised, I will divulge my role.
As stated already, I'm 1453 AD, the year the Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottoman Empire. The justification focuses on the defenders, who fought on despite being outmatched. Therefore... I'm the Bodyguard. I visited Moozer NP1 since I thought he'd be the target of the NK for obvious reasons. He was also one of my stronger townreads going into NP1.
This is what I meant when I kept saying I had a better reason to sus Vader. While this isn't exactly the same as an Elite Bodyguard, it's functionally a CC, since the only difference is that he's simultaneously a Bomb. The decision is between the two of us, and Vader's given plenty of reason to sus him up to now regardless, so I think the decision is obvious.
VTL Vader
That being said, before the DP is out, I still want Luna's full claim.
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@Owen_T
Hmmm... alright, a second Vanilla. I am not surprised by the event itself, which makes perfect sense given the year. As for the role, it's a substantially more important event than the birth of Trajan, so it makes a little less sense as a Vanilla claim. Not impossible, but less probable.
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@Vader
Yeah... I'm not arguing this with you anymore at this point. You know where you messed up and you admitted to it, but now you're suddenly claiming that you didn't make a mistake. This seems to just be your thing this DP, so whatever. Whenever Owen comes on and posts his claim, I'll address my other reasons for sussing you.
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@Vader
Like I said, you're overanalyzing a very simple mistake that does not mean anything. Beginning or end, why does it inherently matter? You haven't given a good reason as to why it matters. Answer, it doesn't.
See, it’s pushback like this that makes me more solid in my sussing of you. You know you fucked up. You have said so - that your claimed year is several years off from the specific event. Timing matters because no one else has done that. Moozer could potentially have claimed the start of building the Colosseum, and if he had listed its competition date along with it, I’d be sussing both of you right now. It matters because it’s wrong, plain and simple, and I don’t think someone who had their claim in writing for multiple days and knows about this particular structure, as you clearly do, makes that mistake.
It's a theory obviously, but if Owen claims or flips an affil confirming investigative, you wouldn't sus out Moozer. I back tracked because he was the only one claimed, not because I wanted to confirm. Moozer goes more into my scum pile at that point. Pretty basic-ish mafia logic
So now it depends on Owen’s claim… but not since Moozer’s in your scum pile as the only affiliation indicative informational claim on the table. You keep flipping on this, since you said he was a town lean 20 minutes ago. Nothing’s changed.
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@Vader
there is quite literally no difference in the beginning or end of construction that would deviate town from scum in a theme analysis
Not the point. The mistake in timing is the point, which you’ve already acknowledged is a valid reason to sus you. It was pretty flagrant, and your defense of it is kind of absurd. You seem stuck on a few side issues I mentioned that I’ve admitted were weak reasons to sus you.
I still haven't seen any major behavioral read to indicate me as scummy.
Already mentioned the decision to sus Moozer as concerning. Just because you’re backtracking on that now doesn't change that. I do think both the people you’re sussing make sense based on where things are at and your claim at least.
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@JoeBob
I find it scummy but I don’t think it’s confirming he’s scum. Last game I think it was? He didn’t pay attention to his pm and didn’t notice he was turned into a vanilla.
Suffice it to say it's a secondary reason for my sussing him, though the difference between last game and this game is that, in the former, he submitted night actions and just didn't check to see whether they were successful (which would have told him they weren't), while in the latter, he mixed up key details that would have been spelled out verbatim in a PM he'd have received several days ago.
as for the vig kill, I’d prefer not to say when im gonna use it, but it’s soon.
Not expecting you to state it. I'm just stating what I think you should do.
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@Vader
I also don't want to harp on the bullshit beginning/end of the PM but does it really matter? Do you really honestly think that a theme would be as so minuet as this is about construction beginning vs construction ending. If it was dates, sure I fucked up and that should draw suspicion but to draw it because it was completed construction is a bit ridiculous and just being nit picky. Not to mention the date range was still right lol. I will wait to see what WF says to a more clear extent
It does matter when you’re the only one so far who has made a mistake on their date, one you only corrected after you were called out on it. This isn’t about theme (I’ve said as much now several times) nearly so much as it is the fact that you fucked up your claim. I don’t know why you think the range being accurate somehow gives you cover, and the fact that both you and Luna keep drawing attention to the range as though it does makes me sus you both.
I didn't shift my basis. I said that your character was important so it built your cred. You asked why I didn't consider Luna and that was because of inactivity. You had a combo of char + behavior analysis. If giving more reasons for not consider Luna is shifting, then sure... I "shifted" my analysis
You’ve removed and added elements to your reasoning when pressed rather than clarifying your reasoning up front. I’d call that shifting your basis for selecting me as a target.
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@Lunatic
I’m not insanely focused on theme atm, I’m trying to look into behavior more than usual.
Very little about what I’ve said regarding Vader has anything to do with theme.
Also as I mentioned earlier it is really wierd to me that supa was not on the wylted vote. Scum would have had every incentive to be on that lynch and could easily justify and defend being on it, and I know supa is very responsive via discord so if he had a mafia partner pinging him to vote I feel he would have voted.
Responsive or not on Discord, Vader’s just been absent for much of the DP. Again, not unusual for scum Vader. He’s done this before as scum and as town. Not being on a lynch doesn’t indicate either way for me, even an easy one.
Maybe I’m not understanding the slip, but didn’t you initially ask him for a date range?
It doesn’t have anything to do with the range. He gave a specific year, said that year was the beginning of the building of the Hagia Sophia, and was clearly mixing up the start and end dates for that particular construction. You don’t find that odd at all? I agree he’s gotten better as scum. I think he’s gotten better as town, too. That doesn’t make him mistake-proof in either, and this seems like a much easier mistake to make if you’re crafting a fake claim than if you literally have the text of your claim in front of you.
Like I said before it’s based on his interaction with Casey. Supa tends to buddy his scum partners so as scum it’s unlikely he would be bussing Casey and I find Casey to be likely scum. This can be revisited if I end up changing how I feel about Casey later on but I don’t think they are the same affiliation
I agree with much of this, I just don’t see Casey as likely scum.
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@Lunatic
So nothing about Vader’s year claim sets you off? I don’t really care if you’re sussing me at this stage, I’ve got my reasons to sus Vader and I intend to make a longer post detailing the why of it after Owen claims, but I find it strange that you chalk up his ascribing the wrong year to the event as townie. Vader has not always been careful as scum, you know that as well as I do.
As for NK analysis, I think that kind of WIFOM thinking always has some value, but there’s a limit. I pointed out that Pie was likely killed because scum thought he was the murder of Julius Caesar. Beyond that, Pie’s always been good at scum hunting and is often taken out early when he’s town for that reason. Doesn’t point to anyone specifically, nor does covering his reads necessarily do us a lot of good, but considering he scumread Vader as you yourself pointed out, I’m surprised to see you so willing to put him in your town pile based on weak behavioral analysis.
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@Owen_T
Speaking of, you were on an hour ago and didn’t post. Where’s your claim?
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@Vader
Yes. This is 100% my mistake but I assumed 537 was the beginning because I have a relatively good knowledge of it. Just saw the date and saw Hagia Sofia. Either way, I figured it wasn't a big deal because they are in the date range in
Alright, I’ll leave this issue alone for now.
Because you were active and since I had a townread on you, I figured you would be more help with the town because of consistent activity. No guarantee that Luna would be active.
Don’t love that you’re shifting your basis for choosing me as a target from character to behavior, but I’ll leave this for now as well. Once Owen posts, I’ll come back to you.
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@Vader
It was the one of 537. I get them confused. Either way not like I was lying about what I am. In my soft I was in the right date range
You got the beginning of construction confused with the end of construction? I believe that, I just don't believe that, if you had this year in your PM and the specifics of whether it was the start or the end of construction, you would then proceed to confuse them in your claim. Much more believable if this was a fake claim that you'd confused.
It's one of the biggest and most well known structures in the Byzantium and was one of the crowning achievements. This is just wrong
I'll give you this, I was just throwing it out as a smaller reason.
Either way, I was protecting because of character.
So, what about my character made you think I had to be in this game? Luna has the fall of the Western Roman Empire, but you weren't considering him. You didn't consider any of those who had claimed their roles early. Why me?
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@Vader
You. It was a toss between Pie and you. I chose you since your char and role seemed pretty likely to be in game for what I am assuming to be the theme
...I didn't claim my role.
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@Lunatic
I don’t expect you to really respond to being in my POE lists, it’s kind of baseless and based on gut feeling and my natural skepticism of you.
Honestly, I'd sus you if you weren't at least a little skeptical of me, so no problem there. Not much to say on that front. Hopefully my claim will clarify things a bit.
However I am interested your thoughts on Casey as a whole, your thoughts on whether both scum were on the lynch, and your thoughts on two killing roles with Vader and Joebob.
I haven't talked about Casey since DP1 where I was sussing them a bit, but the more I've seen of Casey's behavior, the less I'm sussing them. A large part of that is Casey's sussing of Vader (I don't think Casey would start bussing their partner that early), who I have good reason to believe is scum for a variety of reasons, among them:
He's one of two date claims about building something and for some reason only claimed the beginning of construction, while Moozer claimed completion
The Hagia Sophia is a far lesser known structure and is an outlier among existing claims in terms of importance
He didn't claim his night action along with his role for some reason despite being actively sussed by multiple people and...
...oh yeah, his date is wrong. I looked up the Hagia Sofia. Construction began in 532 AD. Construction ended in 537 AD. Don't think anyone else has the wrong year for their event claim, but hey, could be wrong.
I have one other big reason why I'm sussing his claim, though I'll wait for Owen's claim before I put all my cards on the table.
I buy JoeBob's claim, though he'll have to use his shot at some point to confirm himself. He has another night to prove himself, I'm willing to give him that.
So right now the choice for partner is between you and Owen. I think I know what Owen's event is, and I think it's more likely to be him based on how thematically aligned your and my events are, but that's where PoE leaves me.
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Alive:
JoeBob - 64 AD - Great Fire of Rome - 1x Vigilante - NP1: None
Casey - 53 AD - Roman emperor Trajan born - Vanilla
Vader - 537 AD - Hagia Sofia construction begins - Elite Bodyguard - NP1: ???
Owen_T - 27 BCE - ???
Lunatic - 476 AD - Fall of the Western Roman Empire - ???
Whiteflame - 1453 AD - Byzantine Empire conquered - ???
Moozer - 80 AD - Colosseum complete - Alignment Checker - NP1: None
Dead:
Wylted - 79 AD - Mount Vesuvius eruption - Diary Writer
ILikePie - 49 BCE - Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon - Motion Detector
I'll wait for Owen to claim and Vader to fill us in on what he did before I claim my own role. For now, suffice it to say that while I have my disagreements with Moozer's choice, I don't think he's scum. It's a weird move for scum to just abstain from using the role when he could be using it to direct focus to other players. I've got other reasons, but while some of his choices could be scummy, he balances out to town behaviorally and his claim leads decidedly town.
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@Vader
Additional question: who did you target with your role NP1?
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@Vader
He's talking about the two dead players. The Pie's Motion Detector is an informational role, and WyIted's is informative only after he dies, so technically there have been 3. Only one, Moozer's, is alignment-indicative.
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@Vader
I feel like one of the info role has to be scum. I actually am sort of leaning Moozer. The only reason I could see him not using his role is if he's scum and tryna to get to L-1 to "fake" he got a guilty. Seems sus to me
So... you're sussing the only claimed informational role? I don't like Moozer's reasoning, but that would mean he's fake claiming a role without a specific name (Pie and I have put a name to it, but he didn't claim one) and the only one that indicates alignment so far (Owen or Luna might have one, not ruling that out). I don't buy it.
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@Vader
This is pretty stupid and I’m positive scum are on this trainBut I’m 537. The year which the construction of Hagia Sofia began. I am an Elite Bodyguard where if I protect the NK, the attacker dies as well
Interesting. Justification?
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@Earth
There aren't exactly a lot of players around.
I get it. Just saying it’s worth putting out feelers.
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@Earth
@Owen_T
That's because I've had nothing to contribute but fluff.
Even fluff would be better than not contributing at all.
It's become apparent the Luna isn't going to be active much if at all, so not sure what we should do about that.
Earth can seek a replacement (that's why I'm tagging you, Earth - if Luna's only going to post once every 3 days, I'd really rather not turn him into another WyIted situation where he just gets lynched in absentia), but there's not a lot we can do about it other than tag him and hope he'll come online.
Nor has there been any activity from Vader this DP yet, so it's a little weird to me that WF is calling me out instead of either of those two.
I already said that Vader is the priority claim before yours and why. I also said why I'm prioritizing your claim over Luna's, but that his full claim is still needed. Both of them were tagged, but neither have been online, while you were. It's DP2 and I don't want to succumb to inactivity just because a couple of people aren't around for long stretches of time.
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@Moozer325
But the thing is that it only gives you a little info on two people, not a lot on just one.
I wouldn't call what I listed "a little info". It's different, but it's not inconsequential.
Your role would tell us if your targets were on the same side or not, which would at minimum reduce our PoE.But that's not for sure. I wanted to maximize the use of it. In retrospect, yeah it's a bit risky, but I stand by my decision. The choice was to use it then and not get much, or risk not getting anything to get lots more.
I'd like to understand this response because I just don't. You're saying it's not for sure that it would reduce PoE. Why not? The result tells you something about the two people you are targeting, regardless of what it is, which does have an effect on PoE. I spelled that out and this was your response:
Right, but if I waited, the role gets upped to a definite Cop, not a maybe cop.
This leans on someone else to provide information that locks someone in as town. Maybe you were hoping JoeBob would shoot someone (doesn't seem like it from your response to Casey), maybe you were hoping for some other alignment indicator role to give that info, but it was never guaranteed and looking at the info we have so far, it still isn't. What's more, now your odds of targeting someone who is NK'd have gone up significantly, particularly if you're targeting a town-confirmed player, so it's become more probable that the role will fail because your target is dead even if you aren't interfered with and you survive NP2.
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@Owen_T
I really don’t like that you’ve hopped on and offline at least two times by my count without posting. Just because we’re waiting for a claim from Vader first doesn’t mean you can just lurk until he does.
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@Moozer325
If it was a normal affiliation cop, I would have used it, but since it’s weakened in a certain way, I decided to wait at least 1 NP.If I used it just right I can make it a cop really, I just need someone that is town confirmed, or at least very town likely. I didn’t see anyone who met that description I enough for me.
I really don’t love this explanation. Your role is not a weak Cop, since a Cop only gives us info on one target. Your role would tell us if your targets were on the same side or not, which would at minimum reduce our PoE. If you’d gotten a clash, we would have one scum member down to a coin flip at worst. If you’d gotten both on the same side, being able to rule out two people as likely town (possible you’d pick both scum, but less likely) would still be a big deal.
As for getting someone town confirmed before you used it, that seems entirely unnecessary to get useful information. The best you could get is town confirming one person, and that assumes your other target is rock solid town. I’d say that’s not as useful as your role could be, or in this case, could have been.
I really have to ask, though: didn’t you think you were a plausible target for the NK? Were you just banking on being protected two nights in a row to make use of this?
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@Moozer325
I’m sincerely unclear on this. Why didn’t you use it? What’s the point of holding onto it right now, especially when you were a very plausible target for the NK?
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@Moozer325
Alright. Hope you were more active during the NP…
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@JoeBob
His role and character seem legit, im simply sussing him slightly because of inactivity, although I get what you mean
Well, considering that you're almost certainly going to use your Vig this NP (both to confirm your role and because it's plausible that you'll be the target of the next NK), I think you should be considering all of this.
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@Casey_Risk
I'm busy at work right now (working another 12 hour shift, kill me now), but I'll post more when I get on break.
Ugh, I feel for you.
For now, I sus JoeBob a bit for not using his vig and sussing Moozer, who seems pretty town to me.
Considering everything else about his claim, I can't say I sus him. I also expected him not to use it. I think whoever is scum made a mistake not targeting him, though.
Also, I expected Pie to be 44 BC (when Caesar was assassinated). Crossing the Rubicon makes sense, though.
Wanted to see if someone else mentioned this. I was under the same impression, and I think that's why he was killed - they probably thought he had a role more valuable than Motion Detector.
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