Total posts: 6,549
Posted in:
-->
@CatholicApologetics
Apologies for the kerfuffle. I appreciate that you were careful to provide details of your PM while adhering to the rules.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Moozer325
Thank you for clarifying and good to hear it.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
I'd like to get confirmation from Moozer one way or the other before proceeding with any lynch, but I see your points regarding Casey.
Created:
Posted in:
Sorry, typing on my phone and missed a couple of words. I have more reason to be frustrated as town when someone outside the PoE pool gets themselves mod killed.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@CatholicApologetics
So, couple of things.
One, frustration is a non-unique problem. Regardless of the side I’m on, I'm frustrated because I want a good game and someone self-sabotaging actively undermines that. If anything, I have more reason to be frustrated when someone outside the PoE pool gets themselves mod killed.
Two, this view requires you to believe that I would actively volunteer my mental state from a previous game where I was scum as scum in this game. Not sure why you think I’d give away that information if I was engaging in the same thing this game as scum.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@CatholicApologetics
I really hope it wasn't. We had to deal with a modkill a couple of games back. It was a deliberate effort to sabotage the game and, speaking as someone who was on the scum team that game, it was incredibly frustrating to see even considering he was widely townread that game as you have been.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Moozer325
@CatholicApologetics
This is what I was told: "You are the Class Bully. You are the biggest kid in the class and thus can use your force to get the other kids to do what you want. As a result of this, all the other kids are afraid of you, and won't go near you. Thus, you are a Paranoid Gun Owner, minus the mafia. If anybody tries to visit you throughout the night, they will be killed, unless they are the Mafia. You win with the Town."
Please tell me this isn't just a copy-paste of your PM. I know you're new to this, but there's a reason people have been posting ChatGPT-rewritten versions of their PMs or summarizing their justifications. It's one of the basic mafia rules that we are not allowed to copy-paste our character/role PMs.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Casey_Risk
Ye can't help but butt in on other crew's chatter to correct 'em with yer famous line, "Well Actually...".
This sentence makes me think it might be real. It’s an extra detail that I wouldn’t expect from a fake claim. It’s still off for a Miller claim, but it makes the justification more believable.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Casey_Risk
If it helps, though, I could have ChatGPT rewrite my role PM.
Not every justification’s going to be a gem, though we have to have something to go on, and role and justification make more sense than focusing on character given the info scum has. Still, worth at least having another look at it, so sure.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Casey_Risk
I get that, and honestly, I probably should have claimed then. In the moment, I just wanted to focus on developing my idea, and then I was going to claim afterwards, but then Pie was pushing Wylted, WyIted was trying to push a quick lynch, and there just didn't seem to be a good time for me to give my claim until now. If I get sussed by the town for that, then I understand.
I think it's a given that your role claim would get sussed, so it's mainly a matter of how the claim looks. I think this response looks pretty townie, and I have a hard time believing that you would claim a Miller role as scum since that necessarily draws attention to you. It's mainly a question of how all that balances against the weird justification and timing of your claim.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
I think JoeBob is likely town based on that claim. Even before the game started, I figured that Jock would likely be in it.I think this actually a scum slip. How did Casey know Jock would be in the game before it started? Moozer made no mention of what the theme would be besides middle school. How does that translate into student stereotypes and further into Jock. Am I missing something?
I'm not as confident as Casey is that a Jock would be in this game, even given the claim of a Nerd is now on the table, but I can at least see why they believed there would be one based on their claim. That being said, it's sus that Casey acknowledged back on page 1 that PGO was an SOP claim and then waited until now to acknowledge the same about their own role. The justification is a little strange as well, but maybe that's just me being defensive of my own nerd identity.
That being said, I'm still catching up on the DP and have to wrap stuff up at work, so I just want to get out my initial thoughts now.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Casey_Risk
While I like that you're paying attention to those details, I wouldn't put it past Moozer to have some variation in his PMs.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Casey_Risk
See that? 'Town' is capitalized. Everyone else, is town capitalized in your role pm? It isn't in mine.
It's capitalized in mine.
Created:
Posted in:
I've had a busy morning, but I've had the chance to catch up. Surprised no one has posted a claims list yet:
Owen_T - Popular Kid (???)
IlikePie5 - Student
Casey_Risk - Student
Joebob - Student
Whiteflame - Student
CatholicApologetics - Class Bully (PGO, town-only)
Not sure what to make of the "Overly Friendly Kid" claim from Austin, though it seems specific enough (I think scum would just call them the "Friendly Kid") that it likely came from Moozer. I buy the Quiet Kid claim from WyIted, I've certainly heard enough of the statement "it's always the quiet ones" to get that, and especially since it's imminently confirmable, it makes sense. It's been widely accepted that Catholic's early claim and the nature of his claim make him a pretty solid townread and I agree on that front, particularly with his stating that the PGO only affecting town visits.
Created:
Posted in:
I'm trying to make progress reading through Barney's debate, so I'm going to make this my last post in this DP for the night.
If people want to push me for my claim, I'll address it in the morning. I'm fine with getting a couple more roles this DP and if mine has to be one of them, I'm fine with that. That being said, rushing this DP would be a mistake unless we have a solid lynch target, and I'm not as willing to treat anyone who character claims as more likely to be town given that scum has access to everyone's characters.
Created:
Posted in:
Can we get the pressure going on Wylted. We all know his refusal to claim makes zero sense and he’s trash at fake claiming.
I'm not the biggest fan of putting on pressure just to see if WyIted will put out a fake claim or not. I don't love his response to you (I think we should be assuming some scum manipulation, and RB is a common one), but I do think that if his role is even somewhat verifiable, that's worth considering before pushing him to claim it.
Everyone is just going to say student. Let’s start forming a town block with claims and keep moving.Right now I have Pie, Catholic, and Barney (reasons I’m not going to mention right now)
Yeah, that's why I posted earlier about how popcorn claiming isn't going to be effective this game. Are you fishing for another claim? I won't inquire further for now on why you think Barney is town, since that probably has something to do with your role.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Casey_Risk
Okay, WyIted is clearly having an OMGUS moment. There's only three people left at this point who haven't claimed to be a student yet, so I'm just going to ask them directly. I think I know how it's going to go anyway.Whiteflame, Barney, Austin, are you a student or not?
I was waiting on Barney since he was next, but I guess it doesn't matter much: I'm a student.
Created:
Posted in:
Much as I understand the popcorning, I do think that we should avoid popcorning characters claims. This isn't like Moozer's previous two setups. The LotR setup and the BotW game both had a very distinct set of obvious characters. Moozer could have gone a different direction with them and threw some into the scum pool based on some non-obvious theme split, but he didn't, which set town up to weed out scum by simply getting all character claims.
This game is different for two reasons. First and most importantly, scum have access to every character. They know what the theme split is, so if that split is adults vs. students, for example, they would almost certainly fake their claims. There's still value in restricting claims by finding out which camp everyone belongs to, but I think we should go into this knowing that scum already have an advantage in knowing the theme split. Second, while there may be some obvious characters that we would expect with this theme, I believe there are enough potential characters in a middle school setting that narrowing them down to the obvious ones might not be so clear.
In any case, I'm good with continuing the current popcorning, but I think we should take care before seeking more information beyond that.
Created:
Posted in:
I'm also at work, so I only have an opportunity to check in right now.
Also remember, Scum knows all the characters in the game, but not the roles or who has them.
Guess this game is going to be focusing on behavioral analysis and role claims.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Savant
Also, like Pie mentioned, be careful when you give your role claim that you’re accurate. I was scumreading you early in this last DP because it looked like you lied about your role, and while that wasn’t necessarily going to result in a lynch even if I was still in the game, it could very easily have swung the game against us.
Created:
Posted in:
GG. I think Pie and Casey covered it. Honestly, even if I had remembered that Luna had mentioned visiting Austin, I probably would have still scumread him based on the last minute change in who he visited NP1, though it would have given me pause because my theory relied on scum somehow RBing JoeBob and manipulating Luna’s visit.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
Well, if you’re actually town, I do appreciate your detailed thoughts. I’ll probably be dead this time around, so it’s MYLO after this. If I have a chance to post my own thoughts, I will.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
I character claimed way back in DP1. I'm Shulk.
Ah, my bad, I remember now. What’s the justification for Dreamer?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
@AustinL0926
@Owen_T
So I’ll point out that, even if we assume you visited WyIted instead on NP1, you’re still in trouble with your role claim. Let’s have a look at the list:
Dead players:
Casey- Perseus- Reflector- Town - Killed NP1
Wylted- Julius Evola- Dreaming God- Mafia- Lynched DP2
Lunatic- Brienne of Tarth- Brave Townie- Town - Killed NP2
Living:
Whiteflame- Arataka Reigen- Watcher- (targeted Luna NP1 [visited self], targeted JB NP2 [visited by Austin and Savant]
Earth- Dreamer - (failed NP1, NP2 dreamed of Savant, Austin and Owen)
Owen- Ear of Donald Trump - Strengthener (used on self both nights)
JoeBob- Iron man- Compulsive Interceptor (redirects actions to himself, targeted wylted np1)
Savant- Atticus Finch- Probate Lawyer (can confirm self if either WF or JB die)
Austin- Hans Niemann- Chess Grandmaster (predicts death twice in a row, gets role, chose JB DP1, Luna NP1, JB DP2, WF NP2)
Admittedly, I’m deriving Owen’s role from his claim, since he didn’t state it directly (that’s the reason you’re tagged on this post @Owen), and Earth hasn’t claimed his character to my knowledge (hence I tagged you @Earth). I don’t love that Owen chose to use a role that could have been pretty useful on himself, since that’s a waste, but that also comes off as a townie, if overly careful, choice.
One of these things is not like the others. I can find very easy comparisons to known roles for everyone else, even if I’m wrong about the Strengthener. The only one I can’t find a comparison for is yours, @Austin. It’s a weird, difficult to obtain (seriously, twice in a row to get one one-shot role?!) and strangely limited (again, 24 hours? Why?) role that absolutely stands apart.
As for sussing Earth, I think your logic relies on WyIted holding it together through his frustration and actively tying himself to his scum partner, the same mistake Savant and Casey made last game that Wylted moderated. I don’t buy that he’d follow their lead and just out publicly that he visited his own scum partner to give him towncred. Wylted’s aim was clearly to give himself cover, and when it failed, his frustration was obvious. You’d have to believe all that was manufactured, and I don’t.
Not to mention, your timeframe for getting a message from Pie only makes sense if you sent him a message much later than you said you would. Pie posted at 11:54 PM, over two hours after you said you’d ask, and he’s consistently on top of his PMs when he’s online and moderating a game, much to his credit. You posted at 1:07 AM and gave no info. So either I buy that Pie got to it late, or you never sent him a PM. The latter is much more believable.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
I just realized I selected Wylted instead of Luna on NP1, so that's kind of idiotic. Probably should have double-checked who I actually selected but I was distracted last night :/I don't expect anyone to believe this, so just give me day to read through the past day and leave my legacy on who the last scum is so we can win this.Sorry.
If this is true, then your mistake is about to get you lynched. Oh well, we can mislynch once if needed, and you look scummy as hell.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
A) I waited 11 hours. You posted between then and now, after Pie had already posted, indicating that you had either did not ask the question or you asked and just didn’t give your answer.
B) Thank you for “confirming.” Guess you didn’t fully read my post, eh? If you visit your target, why didn’t you visit Luna NP1?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
@AustinL0926
@Savant
@JoeBob
@Owen_T
Alright, I’m tired, so this might not come out as coherently as I’d like, but whatever, it’ll do.
I’ll start with my claim. I’m the Watcher. It’s part of the reason I didn’t buy WyIted’s claim - not terribly common for both a Tracker and a Watcher to be in the same game - but I didn’t want to give it away if I could avoid it and we had a good case against WyIted regardless. Reigen’s good at reading people, so he’s the Watcher. Not the most obvious role for him, but the justification works well enough.
And now, results. NP1, I targeted Luna, who was only visited by Luna. I didn’t think it was a Lawyer role, especially after Luna claimed to largely town confirm me (seems he was reflected onto himself by Casey’s role, which was used on me), and given that Austin says he selected Luna as the likely one to die during that NP, we can assume his role doesn’t visit. Got it? Good.
NP2, I targeted JoeBob. I thought he’d be the NK target since he was blatantly town after all those negative interactions with WyIted. He was visited by two people: Savant, and Austin. Something doesn’t jive here. Austin’s role didn’t visit Luna… but did visit JoeBob? JoeBob says he used his role on Austin, so Austin could only have visited him if he used a role separate from his claim on someone and got redirected to JoeBob.
But, as JoeBob points out, the NK went through on Luna. So… what gives?
Well, this is the rub from JoeBob’s role (emphasis is mine):
Assuming no interference, any action that player did will be redirected to me.
What happened is simple enough: Austin used a role that interfered with JoeBob’s on JoeBob. He then performed the NK on Luna. That’s one way to make it look like you can’t have done the NK, and I like the effort, especially since it’s pretty obvious that JoeBob apparently wasn’t informed that his role was interfered with. I do recall that Pie is not prone to giving out that information (that your action failed) for non-investigative roles.
I’ll also point out that Austin has been online and even posted since Pie posted in here, meaning he’s almost certainly gotten an answer to his fake request for info, and hasn’t mentioned whether his role visits. Not that it matters - if his role doesn’t visit, he can’t explain where he clearly visited, and if it does, he can’t explain NP1 where he didn’t. I definitely got lucky with my choices of targets. Also, anyone else curious as to why his role has a 24 hour time limit to select a target each phase? Seemed weird to me to specify that rather than just giving him the duration of the phase or requiring a choice at the start of the phase.
Game’s solved, folks.
VTL Austin
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
@AustinL0926
@Savant
Alright, I forgot that Austin had already voted so he’s already at L-1. At least one of you remove your vote, there is no reason to rush this DP.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Yeah, should be 6 players and 4 votes. That being said, let’s exercise caution here. No one put Owen at L-1, at least until I get my chance to post. I realize we’re at 5-1, but one mislynch is still MYLO.
Created:
Posted in:
I do request that no one proceed to a lynch before I give said thoughts. It’ll be worth the wait.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
So, it’s late, and the kind of post I’d like to make right now is probably going to come out garbled (nearing home at last). I’d also like to wait for an answer about the finer details of Austin’s role, hence the ping.
Long story short, I’ve got thoughts and a role to claim. Stay tuned tomorrow morning.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Savant
Now, thou art the Town Probate Lawyer. Each night, thou may'st visit a soul, and if that soul should meet their end during the course of the game, they shall be granted the chance to leave a final message—a last will, if thou wilt. When thou meet'st thy own demise, all such wills shall be revealed to the townsfolk.
Good enough for me. Thanks.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@JoeBob
So Whiteflame is confirmed town and Austin is almost certainly.This leaves Owen Savant and EarthOne of them is scum, and it seems we are seeking a role claim from Savant.
I think you can only confirm me via Earth’s role. My part in WyIted’s lynch strongly suggests I’m town, but he’s the only one that has given me any kind of confirmation, so you’d have to believe he’s not in PoE at this point.
As for Savant, his role claim has largely been given, even if some of the dimensions (how he confirms himself by selecting the correct target) remain obscure. I’d like to know about the visiting element before proceeding with him, but I wouldn’t mind his specifying other elements.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
@Savant
I'll ask Pie. Intuitively I think it probably shouldn't since I also do it during the day, but it doesn't hurt to make sure.
Alright. While we’re at it, Savant, does your role count as a visit?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Just landed, have a bit of time.
OH MY GOD NO ONE VISITED ME LAST NIGHTOwen, Austin, SavantI am the dreamer.
Yeah, you were telegraphing that pretty hard based on registering a visit. Couple of other roles it could have been, but this was my read. Glad you got a result, shame that all three are were already in my PoE.
Created:
Posted in:
Posting this before we take off:
Dead players:
Casey- Perseus- Reflector- Town - Killed NP1
Wylted- Julius Evola- Dreaming God- Mafia- Lynched DP2
Lunatic- Brienne of Tarth- Brave Townie- Town - Killed NP2
Living:
Whiteflame- Arataka Reigen
Earth- Fictional male (knows he was visited)
Owen- Ear of Donald Trump
JoeBob- Iron man- Compulsive Interceptor (redirects actions to himself, targeted wylted np1)
Savant- Fictional (can confirm self if either WF or JB die)
Austin- Hans Niemann- Chess Grandmaster (predicts death twice in a row, gets role, chose JB DP1, Luna NP1, JB DP2, WF NP2)
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
I’m going to be in flight again (oh joy…) for the next two hours, so I’m not going to be able to respond for a bit, not even able to catch up wholly atm. For now, I’ll say that Austin’s claim is interesting. Does your selection of a target count as a visit or no?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
@Savant
@JoeBob
As for everyone else, pretty clear JoeBob is town at this point, but it’s worth outing who you targeted in the last NP.
Earth is most likely town. I was questioning that when I saw that WyIted was lynched and flipped guilty, but given the rant he had right at the end, WyIted seemed indignant that a strategy that seemed foolproof had failed. Maybe they just did an incredible job setting all this up, but I doubt it.
Savant is more of an open question. Based on his claim, I’m going to need to see a character before I’m sure, but I’d like to know his night action as well.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
@Owen_T
Looking for full claims and night actions from both of you this DP. This should not require pressure at this point. We’re at 5-1, we need information to lynch, and both of you have been inactive enough that this should just be a given.
Created:
Posted in:
So we have about 12 hours left at this stage. I’d still like a full claim from Owen, especially after he started pushing for a full claim from Earth, who is widely townread at this point and has given a pretty solid softclaim that has been backed up already. I get that it’s backed up by WyIted, who I’m scumreading atm, but I don’t see any value in obtaining his full claim right now and the effort to divert attention from himself to Earth, Savant and now focusing on JoeBob reads as behaviorally scummy coming from him.
Just the same, I’m going to Unvote for now as I think we have to coalesce around a lynch and this is not helping that effort. I still think it’s more likely that WyIted is scum than JoeBob for reasons I’ve already expressed, so that’s where my vote is going:
VTL WyIted
If he flips town, we can verify his result and that will help inform the next lynch and any further information we get is likely to be manipulated. If he flips scum, that moves the needle.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
Okay thanks. I know your already on Wylted but what do you think of the Evola claim, do you think there’s any world pie makes that guy town? If so why? I just kind of glanced at the wiki I don’t know a ton about him
I don’t know a whole lot about him either, but the choice is on brand for WyIted, who I think would choose an… unconventional hero. I also genuinely don’t think WyIted would fake a character claim in this game because I don’t think anyone has incentive to do so.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
I already gave my character: Arataka Reigen
Created:
Posted in:
It’s been a rough night. A flight that should have been an hour and a half ended up being almost 6 hours long. Flight made circles before getting rerouted because of the hurricane, then finally got into DC way too late to catch our connection. Now we’re 24 hours delayed from getting home.
All that is to say I’ve read the posts, but I can’t retain anything aside from it still being JoeBob vs. WyIted. I’ll catch up again tomorrow morning and see if my thoughts have changed.
Created:
Posted in:
Heads up, I'm going to be on a couple of flights in a few hours, so I'm likely not going to be posting until late tonight after that.
In the meantime, while I am absolutely fine with the lynch being between WyIted and JoeBob at this point, I think there's value in seeking more information. The lack of activity from Owen and Austin make them particularly relevant for this from where I'm sitting, but no one else seems interested for some reason. Can someone else explain their thoughts on this? We don't have that many role claims at this point.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Lunatic
I think you've laid out the case well. One thing you didn't mention is that scum were able to ask about two roles. That places their claims in a distinctly different light.
WyIted as scum could have asked about the existence of a Tracker in the game. It's a ballsy choice for a question that eliminates any risk on the claim. His choice of target might be viewed as confirmation, but as soon as Earth confirmed that he had been visited, it strongly suggested that Earth didn't visit anyone (I'm going to avoid speculating on the "why" of that on the off-chance that scum haven't figured out his role yet), so WyIted had a relatively safe way to confirm that he had visited Earth and claim that he hadn't moved. In general, WyIted's responses to me came off as opportunistic, since it seemed like he was trying to use my argument - that I'd at least be less likely to scumread the person who visited Earth if they outed this DP - to his advantage.
As for JoeBob's Compulsive Intercepter, while that's obviously not the type of role he would ask about directly, it does come off as the type one might come up with if scum asked about a role and was told that it was in the game, since it's a relatively safe claim. The problem with that is, if scum came up with a somewhat convoluted role like this and then saw the flip from Casey, I have a hard time believing that they would then just decide to go ahead and claim it. It's not like JoeBob just rocked into this DP and claimed quickly, he took quite a while to consider it and says he asked Pie about the role, both of which initially had me on edge about him. I'm not sure what he was uncertain of or what he asked Pie that resulted in his belief that the role is "more useless than i thought", but what that time didn't change was his willingness to claim the role. Maybe he is scum and he just resigned himself to claiming it, but that doesn't explain why he'd then proceed to contradict WyIted's claim, which necessarily puts him in the crosshairs if WyIted were to flip town. It's just a weird position to put himself in as scum.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Possible. Casey gives Wylted a shield. Wylted targets me. Joebob targets Wylted and his action is redirected to himself. I get visited still.
So, while I think this scenario makes some sense, I do have to point out some of the aspects that make me question it.
First is the obvious: this requires two different people to have targeted WyIted. JoeBob claims to have targeted him, and I guess it's a toss-up whether Casey townread WyIted enough to give him the shield. It's not an impossible scenario by any means, but I doubt it's the most likely one on the table.
Second, it's just a weird interaction happening here. Pie would have to allow for the possibility that Casey uses the shield on someone, redirecting all their roles back to themselves, including a role whose purpose is to redirect roles... to themselves? You could argue that Casey's shield redirects the action of someone external to the target while JoeBob's role targets someone with the aim of having their role used on himself, so there is a distinction, but I just have the hardest time believing that Pie would needlessly complicate a game with two redirection roles and refer to one of them as "Compulsive Intercepter" while just having the other be a straightforward Reflector. Maybe this is too modpsych, but something's off here.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Owen_T
I am the ear of Donald Trump
Alright, that explains the weird softclaim, though it doesn't move the needle since the character claim basically tells me nothing. Going to need that role claim.
Created: