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@AustinL0926
Yes, but it's something of a moot point since even if I confirm it, I can't really prove I was the one who did it.
So the role itself is basically affiliation-confirmed, you just need someone else to confirm it was you who used it?
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@Casey_Risk
Sure. Basically, my character isn't a real person, but calling them fictional didn't seem quite right with me, as people definitely believed they were real at some point in time. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs, but that was my thought process.
Alright, it makes sense that you’d specify a little bit more if that’s the case.
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@AustinL0926
My role is theoretically confirmable but very hard to prove it. but should be able to help town significantly if I play my cards right
Does confirming your role effectively confirm your affiliation or not? DD pointed this out last game and I think it’s worth considering for this one.
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@Earth
@WyIted
@Casey_Risk
@Owen_T
We’re clearly going to be waiting for a little while for Luna to confirm and even when he does, it’s not going to change the conversation much going forward since there aren’t any trends to consider. I’ll try to get some discussion going.
WyIted, Owen, Casey and Earth, all four of you decided to include information on your characters that wasn’t asked for. I’m not complaining since none of you narrowed it down all that far, but care to explain why you provided excess detail?
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@Lunatic
I think you’re the only one left.
Character Role
1. Casey Fic/Myth
2. Lunatic
3. Austin Real Somewhat Confirmable
4. Whiteflame Fic
5. Owen Real/“It”
6. JoeBob Fic
7. Earth Fic/“Male”
8. Wylted Real/Dead
9. Savant Fic
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@Savant
Seems like overkill since we have no reason to believe there's a theme split, and there are infinite characters to choose from as fakeclaims anyway. The odds of picking one already in the game are pretty low.
I get that perspective, though I’ll note that that depends on how you use them. At least the way I used them, the setup didn’t matter so much as just seeing if certain common roles were available as fake claims that matched my character well.
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@AustinL0926
Guess since Earth didn’t push for someone to go next, I’ll fill the void as promised.
I’m fictional.
Austin, you’re next.
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I’ll respect the order regardless, but offer to go after Earth.
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This should be fun. I’m glad I got the character I was hoping for from the two I submitted. Looks like scum will get a chance to ask about two roles over the course of the DP, so keep that in mind when we’re pushing for claims.
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@Savant
Actually, it was winnable. If you'd gotten me lynched, it would have been 3-1 after the NK. If Barney was still in the game, 2 votes would've lynched him, so your double voter would've clinched it. Game over. Austin's role would be a concern, considering he could reverse the lynch in either twilight phase, but there were opportunities.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
@WyIted
Yeah, I was bracing myself for a fight with Savant. Actually had a few ideas on how I'd respond, but didn't end up having to go there.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
@WyIted
I was right about the "I can role confirm" shit needing to stop though. I stand by that. If your role confirms your alignment that's one thing but come on. Just be normal, people.I think in a future game if I get to mod again than I will punish people for this belief. I usually like to set up games to punish town for what I believe is having a bad meta
To be fair, the only reason I was arguing that his confirmable role made me sus him less was because I knew what that role was and had reason to suspect he was town, I just didn't have good reason to reveal that information.
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@WyIted
Scum role copped him the same day you did and knew his role
Alright... that's confusing. I guess they really didn't see me as a concerning PR then. Didn't think I gave myself that much cover, but I guess they were reading into my response to Casey's claim and didn't believe I had an investigative role. I'll take it.
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@Casey_Risk
How on Earth did you get Watcher out of that? And for the rest of you, why did none of you point this out?
His decision to self-hammer came out of nowhere. I had wanted to discuss his read on you after we got a claim, but he made his call and it was over before I could address it. I do recall him saying that and I was confounded by it.
This time, I actually felt like I had a really good fakeclaim that probably would have worked out, if everyone hadn't sussed it for dumb reasons.
I didn't get the opportunity to detail the reasons I was sussing you, but yeah, I agree that the reasons others were giving didn't sit right with me.
I definitely feel like we could have made better usage of the Role Swapper in the end.
Up until the end, I was still considering JoeBob as potential scum who just used the Role Swap to make himself look townie, but the way he revealed it just didn't square with my expectations on that front. Definitely could've been used better, but hey, it at least made for some interesting sussing.
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DD definitely nailed Casey, though like I said in the game, I would've been willing to consider a lynch on Casey after he claimed since the role/character didn't make a lot of sense. I also just didn't buy Casey's explanation for why they targeted Savant. I actually thought they were behaviorally town in DP1, though others have disagreed, so that may just be my own personal blinders.
And yeah, it was a mistake for Casey to claim they targeted Savant and get the kind of "that's accurate" response from Savant in DP2. I probably would have had it down to Savant by PoE (or at least had him in a very small pool with JoeBob), but that ended up tipping me off that something was going on there. I think you have to be willing to take a risk in that scenario and just say that someone who is townread didn't move. I would obviously have been a bad choice for that, but you don't want to tie yourself to your partner if you can avoid it. I know it's worked before with the Messenger gambit Austin and Savant pulled several games back, though I'd say we're a little more sensitive to that now.
Also, for anyone wondering, I held off on claiming because it never seemed necessary. Pie was never in serious danger of being lynched and he wasn't drawing too much attention, and people were generally townreading me, so I figured keeping my role a secret would at least give me some opportunity to act NP2 and find the right target. It was a gamble, but it paid off. Very much appreciate that Pie also refused to claim, made him look like he had a powerful PR.
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@AustinL0926
@JoeBob
@Owen_T
The writing is on the wall, let's end this.
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@AustinL0926
Wait, I'm actually a bit confused. Are you saying that Savant's ONLY ROLE was the role swapper? How would that be possible?
That’s the only role that came up, so up to the start of NP2, it was his only role. He chose to give up the role in hopes that it would throw town for a loop. Right now, he is most definitely the double voter.
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@Savant
Anyway, off for the night. Interested to hear what Savant will say about this one. Thoughts?
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@JoeBob
…what?it says pie is Donald trump
Remember how I just said that I can see roles going back in time? WyIted told me, verbatim, that "Savant had the same role at the beginning of NP1 and NP2", i.e. he might have a different role now, but he swapped their roles during NP2. I happen to know from NP1 that Pie had a different role, i.e. the double voter, which I guarantee Savant has now.
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Miswrote that. Meant to say "I would have at least considered considered lynching Casey based on their claim".
Still, that's game unless anyone has a good reason why we shouldn't lynch Savant at this point.
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Good job DD for taking out Casey, though if he'd just claimed, I would have at least considered him.
I'll start this DP by full claiming: I am John Titor. I softclaimed (it really wasn't that soft, tbh) that I was associated with Steins;Gate back in DP1 and said that my role strongly suggests the existence of a Role Swapper. That's because I can learn of past timelines. That essentially makes me a role cop with an additional twist: I can see both current and previous roles a player had.
I targeted Pie during NP1 (I was somewhat sus of him behaviorally DP1), hence I was pretty strongly opposed to his lynch by DD. I didn't think it was likely that scum would just be a double voter, and it looks like I was right.
So, I targeted Savant NP2. Casey had "cleared" him by saying that he hadn't moved, which seemed like a risky move that tied Casey to Savant, but was something I thought he might do. Turns out I was right. Savant is Donald Trump. His role is described as "the chaos agent," which is the role swapper. Easy lynch. If I'm wrong, lynch me next DP. Game solved.
VTL Savant
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@Casey_Risk
Not quite. I only get to see if my target visited anyone, not who they visited.
Point taken.
Savant was one of the three people I had a scum leaning on DP1, along with Owen and JoeBob.
Glad you didn't target either of them based on their claims. I'd say Owen in particular would've been a waste.
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@ILikePie5
He said it’s only for one day. It could theoretically be a scum role like the magistrate, but that’s why he’s in the lean town/null pile.
I think you'd have to believe that WyIted would give out a lynchproof role to scum, which they can activate at any point during the DP, for this to be true. I get the comparison to the Magistrate, but that role at least required some anticipation of a wagon forming since it was only usable during the NP, and couldn't be used on yourself (to my knowledge).
If anyone wants to CC it then I’m open to it, but now that he’s claimed Reporter, I’m moving back to null/lean town. The way he described it, it’s a Tracker, not a Reporter.
Yes, that's what I said. Given that no one else has claimed to have results from the NP, I'd say the lack of a CC isn't proof positive, so the lean town pile makes sense to me.
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@Savant
Given that scum have already messed with roles and might do so again, I'm not sure we should be pushing for everyone and their mother to full claim. I think there are probably general questions we could ask about DD's role before we make them tell us everything.
I'm not angling to get everyone's claim at this point, and though I'd like more than a softclaim from him, I'd at least be willing to consider an alternative if presented.
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@Casey_Risk
Alright, fair enough. I am the Reporter. I can target someone at night to see if they visited anyone. Last night I targeted Savant, who did not visit anyone.
So a Tracker, then. Given that Savant hasn't said anything about what he did during the NP, I guess this lends credence to him not having either used the Role Swap or done the NK, at least assuming he's not a Ninja.
Why target Savant?
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@ILikePie5
Help me pressure Disc please
I'm good with this.
VTL DD
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@ILikePie5
Pie, Barney, Casey, Austin <— Strong Town for nowOwen, Savant <— Null/Lean townJoeBob, WF, Disc <—POE
I'm fairly confused by this. Why is Owen anything but strong town given that he just confirmed himself to be lynchproof? JoeBob is an odd one, too, though I guess I understand how he could be in PoE if you believe he's pulling a pretty big gambit. I don't see how the claimed investigative role automatically places Casey in the "Strong Town" pile, either.
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@Casey_Risk
Apologies for not tagging you.
At this point, given that you are an investigative role, I don't think there's value in your holding back on your claim, since you are likely to be a target for scum during the NP no matter what it is. Also, who did you investigate?
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@Savant
Have Austin, Pie, JoeBob, and Barney all be confirmed town?
No, but I'd say they are all more likely town than not at this point. You fall in the same bucket, though less so than the rest tbh, since yours is more of a behavioral read. I've given my reasoning for all five of you already, but if you'd like me to revisit it, I can.
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Alright, just caught up.
With the lynchproof confirmed, Owen is confirmed town. A lynchproof scum would be absurd. So that leaves Casey and DD from where I'm sitting, and I'm good with getting a role claim from the former first.
VTL Casey
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@ILikePie5
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Owen hasn't been on in the last 5 hours, so we can't say that he's on but not posting.
And yes, I thought about the faking being Silenced gambit. I was planning to do that a couple of games back. There's always the possibility that scum have a Tailor or in some other way modified the flip.
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@ILikePie5
He may not be able to talk but he can still communicate via upvote or something like that.
Some Silenced people can post a vote once (that was the case with our Silencing role a couple of games back), but from what I've seen of the Silencer, it's most common that the target cannot do anything. I would think they could upvote (in which case, Owen, if you're reading this and you can't speak, you should be upvoting posts that suggest you could be Silenced - start with this post).
JoeBob could certainly be lying about it. But why switch with someone and then kill then as well. That’s a waste imo, but it’s still a distinct possibility. Also, Lunatic didn’t have the silencer before the switch.
It would be a pretty outrageous gambit, but the reason I believe something happened has more to do with the existence of my role than it does with JoeBob's statement or Luna's flip. That being said, my role only hints at something like a Role Swapper in the game (it does not specifically say that role), and even that isn't telling of what actually happened last NP, only that a role like this likely exists in the game.
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In general, I find it odd that we haven't gotten a single result or night action yet. Maybe Owen did something and just hasn't posted about it yet, but there are at least 6 town members left in this game (could be 7-2 or 6-2-1 at this point) and no one's claimed a single action.
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@ILikePie5
@Discipulus_Didicit
Much as I generally agree with you that being uncooperative doesn't look great, I think the response he gave you regarding why you were selecting him first over another person who has yet to claim is a valid one. Don't get me wrong, I'm townreading Austin so he's not exactly top of my list for a claim, but I think it was valid for him to ask at the time. Since then, you said that you were townreading Austin as well, so I think it's valid to put it back to Pie at this point.
I'm still fine with seeking a claim from Owen. He was on 3 hours ago and did not post despite having multiple votes on him. We might need to account for the possibility that he is Silenced (which I suppose is possible at this point, though that obviously makes JoeBob sus since he hasn't said he used it and therefore the only person who could have was Luna), but I'd like to see if he posts when he's next online.
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@Savant
@Owen_T
Participation alone would be nice, but I think a role claim is also in order. He's at 3 votes currently, so I'm not going to add to it unless he refuses to claim.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Alright that's all the deflection I need to hear let's lynch the sucker.
So is the idea to lynch Pie? Because I'm not down for that with a confirmable role, even if it doesn't confirm his affiliation. I don't love that he avoided answering your question, but that's not reason enough for me to pursue that lynch. I have other reasons to be against it based on what he has hinted at so far as well through his softclaim.
That being said, I have a similar PoE to you with the exception of Austin, who I'm townreading based on his saying that his role supports the existence of Barney's Hated. Maybe I'm just not in the same headspace as you and Pie, but Austin said his role is highly indicative of his being town and at least softclaimed something that suggests a Hated in the game. Savant says he's somewhat confirmable, and I agree that he's behaviorally above board.
So that puts my aim squarely at 3 people: Casey, Owen and you. We have character claims from the former two and nothing from you so far, but you're the least behaviorally sus of those three, so I'm open to getting a role claim from either Casey or Owen first.
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@ILikePie5
@JoeBob
Lunatic had already character claimed last DP, and JoeBob hasn’t confirmed that he has Luna’s character, which is odd. Why hide that?
You have a point. I had assumed I'd misread some aspect of his post and went back to it a few times, but you're right that he hasn't confirmed that his character is Luna's character. That is an odd omission.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I think you're right that the person who used it is scum. Pie and Owen won't claim they did because they've both claimed rants, and Barney's claimed Hated. Since all four of us have said we did not participate in the role swap, someone's lying, which leaves us with the matter of whom.
I wish I could say I have a clearer idea on that front. I'm townreading JoeBob, and I'm townreading Austin and Barney based on the latter's claim and the former's statements about his role pseudo-confirming it. They're weaker townreads, but I'd still say they're unlikely to be scum. That doesn't narrow the window as much as I'd like, but I think I'll get more from seeing more posts on Casey's and Owen's parts in particular. The former has only posted once since the DP started and the latter hasn't come on.
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@AustinL0926
I don't think we should view this as clearing for Joebob. If a role swapper is the only ability one of their members have, then it makes sense they would want to use it as soon as possible to get a useful ability for themselves. I was suspecting Luna was a PR with the way he played yesterday honestly.
So, if this is the case, I guess I'm wondering what the point is in having JoeBob out that he was the recipient of a different role. Scum could have treated this like a Janitor, except they outright received the role from Luna rather than just erasing knowledge of it from the game. So why would JoeBob draw attention to himself as that recipient?
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@Savant
Didn't we have 4 time travel claims and 6 rant claims? If the real number is 5 and 5, it's likely the role swapper claimed their role as rant-related to duck suspicion. I don't see the play for scum, but they could be third-party.
Literally just posted on this. I could see scum doing it, but it's not a play I'd personally make. Earth did it in our Recycled Roles game, picking a separate game from his own to throw off town. It was riskier then than it is here.
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Also, it's been bothering me since we got everyone's softclaims, but I still don't like that there are 6 rants to 4 time travelers. This would not be the first time I've seen scum decide to fake claim when there wasn't a theme split, and if that's the case, then both scum may have softclaimed rants. I don't want to focus on modpsych too much, but if that's the case, then my focus on the four of us may be misplaced.
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@Savant
Speaking as someone who did a similar gambit last game with your Magistrate, I don't think it's likely JoeBob would have overwritten his own role. Something else might be going on here (e.g. scum could just be claiming that this happened to make us townread him), but it would be a very strange gambit and they would have no way of knowing that some of us (at least me) have elements of our role that suggest the existence of this kind of role swapping. So yes, I'm pretty solidly townreading him.
Assuming we don't get a town member who claims to have done this (at this point, I don't think we will, since all three of the people who haven't chimed in have claimed rants), the Role Swapper at least is still likely among the four of us unless we're assuming scum faked at least one of their claims. I can't say I've decided who is most likely, but I think we need claims at this stage to parse that out. For now, I'm going to wait for more people to post and make a decision based on how others respond.
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@Savant
According to the info on Mafia Universe, not usually.
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From what I've been able to find anyway, the Role Swapper fits the bill, since they're able to flip two players' roles. I can't really puzzle out why scum would choose to Role Swap between Luna and JoeBob, since they obviously viewed Luna as a threat, though that is assuming that scum were the ones to use this role. It's possible that one of the remaining 3 players who hasn't posted yet this DP (Pie, Barney or Owen) will claim to have done it. In any case, whoever did likely did us a favor. Replacing a Silencer is likely to be a net positive for us.
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@Savant
I remember reading on a forum somewhere about a third-party faction that recruits members to that faction. Vampires or something. Seems weird in a time travel game, but that's the only case I can remember where someone could change another player's role.
I'm unclear on that myself. I'm doing some reading into potential roles that fit the bill, though it's possible WyIted made a sort of hybrid role for this.
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@Savant
He said he has a new role (which he won't specify), which presumably isn't Silencer.
Wow, I apologize, I misread his post. He said he used to be the Silencer, and whatever his current role and character is is unclear. It's possible that it is Luna's former role, since whatever Luna was apparently got overwritten.
I didn't change JoeBob's role, which means it was either you, DD, or Austin. Or JoeBob is lying (seems like a weird play, so unlikely).
Alright then. I also doubt that JoeBob is lying.
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The Silencer role is an interesting one. I'd hesitate to call it negative utility (I think that depends on who gets Silenced), but given how it could have been used (my experience is that it's not announced publicly so we'd all just have to figure out that someone cannot speak in the DP), I would have seen it as a pretty scummy claim. Probably for the best that you didn't use it, JoeBob.
On a related note, I believe JoeBob is town. I have a hard time believing that JoeBob would say that he'd become the Silencer if he was scum, and there are elements of my role that suggest something along the lines of what happened to give him that role. This could have been the result of a town role, but since we know that scum targeted Luna last night, the simpler explanation is that they have a role that automatically overwrites the role of a separate player they target (in this case, JoeBob). I believe it's most likely that whoever did it is in the time travel camp (he traveled to a new dimension, and I can't see how that has anything to do with a rant), which means PoE is between DD, Austin, Savant and me.
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