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@ILikePie5
Yep. Going to end in a NL at this rate, but here we are.
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@AustinL0926
I think if you want the lynch on JoeBob, you're going to need to explain your reasoning in more detail.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yeah, I'm noting it as well. While I don't see much benefit for scum in joining a VTNL wagon, it was an awfully fast transition.
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The more I've thought about this, the more the VTNL makes sense. I understand that there's a difference between reaching LYLO and MYLO, but the difference between the two scenarios Barney describes is actually in what he omits from the first one: that we would likely VTNL at 4v2 (MYLO) and bring it to LYLO anyway unless we had good reason to lynch at that point. So there could well be a VTNL regardless of whether we do it during this DP or a later one.
The difference, as Pie has pointed out in a previous game, is in how much information we're likely to get. Scum can only kill so many and stop so many actions this DP, and especially given how little information about roles has been given out, they'll likely be shooting blind on some of those choices. Meanwhile, town stands to gain a great deal of information as a result of the NP, which can go a long way to inform the next lynch.
So that's where I say we go with it.
VTNL
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@Barney
Got a confusing answer about timelines.So probably I must die, but not guaranteed.
Didn’t see that, but point taken. I’ll consider your point.
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Also, I promised to post reads and then just didn't yesterday. I've already given some thoughts on Barney and Austin, don't have anything to add there. I've also talked about Casey, who comes off as a little stronger of a townread with their claim. I've talked about my views on Pie as well, and though I'm somewhere between a null and a slight scum read on him, he's claimed to be confirmable, so I'm not comfortable lynching him this DP. Anyway, thoughts on the rest:
DD: Null. His posts have most definitely been glorious, particularly his overlong rants that are just *chef's kiss*, but I can't say I've seen enough to justify putting him in either camp at this stage. It's a bit odd that he townread JoeBob, Casey and Owen without explanation and was opposed to calling for my claim for unspecified reasons. There's probably a basis for all this that hasn't been provided yet, but there's just not a lot to go on for a read.
Luna: Slight townread. I don't agree with his read on Casey, but I can see where he's coming from. His hesitancy to push for Barney as the default lynch comes off a bit townie as well, particularly since he hasn't yet confirmed (at least from what I've seen) whether his Hated status persists into later DPs, which should be pretty relevant if we're considering him as a lynch based on his role in any DP.
Owen: Null. This is really a balancing of his claim, which does seem off, and an early behavioral read I got on him. I'm not so much concerned with the whole "I win with the town" vs. "I win with town" situation, but I don't buy that scum would be the first to specify in one direction or the other. It's not a lot to go on, but it's the only behavioral hint I've gotten so far. It's also part of the reason I believe Barney is town because I don't think scum would have actively chosen to distinguish themselves by writing theirs as "I win with town", even though that ends up being a null issue in general.
JoeBob: Null. I'm still not quite sure how to read into his defensiveness of a post he never made, mainly because it's just a weird decision, particularly at a point where it had already been established that the difference between the two framings of winning with town was already a non-issue and no one had asked him about his framing up to that point. I can't tell if that was an effort to look more townie or just a mistake on his part, and he hasn't done enough posting since to clarify it for me.
Savant: Slight townread. Everything I'm seeing from him so far has typified his usual town play, though he's a little less antagonistic than I'd expect based on his previous play. He's been pushomg back against DD and Pie and has claimed he has a "hypothetically confirmable" role, so at the very least, I'd like to see how it plays out. I'm a bit baffled by his take on Owen's claim, but that doesn't really change my view of him.
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@Casey_Risk
I town read Owen right now, since they are putting more effort into posting than I would expect as scum.How so? He still hasn't said much of substance, and only gave any reads when specifically pushed to by Pie. His claim is also questionable in my eyes. The Dean scream is definitely iconic, but not what I would call a rant.
I was thinking the same thing. Owen did just claim "Howard Dean" and then posted the video where he lists of states where he's going before that iconic scream. The Howard Dean speech is kind of a rant if you squint at it, but it's mainly known for the scream rather than the rant itself, so the claim seems at least a little off.
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@Lunatic
@Barney
Okay so has it been 100% confirmed by barney that he is still hated at LYLO?I imagine it has to have been otherwise pie wouldn't still be harping on that point. If so I think we kind of have to lynch barney today even though I would hate to do that. The only other way I would be convinced off of doing it is if we had scum dead to rights and with 12 hours remaining, that doesn't look like its the case. But yeah it goes against everything in my being to lynch someone I feel is town just because of math but pie is technically not wrong.I would like barney to confirm this to me in case I missed it though. To be clear, I want him to confirm that he is 100% still hated at MYLO.
I would sincerely like an answer to this as well. Barney mentioned that he would ask about it and then never said what the situation was. Much as I'm pretty strongly townreading him at the moment, you and Pie are right that he's a liability to town if his role persists into later DPs, so if that's the case, he's honestly the default (if admittedly lazy) lynch.
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@ILikePie5
I still think you should character claim. No one has answered why they townread you.
I've said that I'm fine claiming, and while that is still the case, so far no one but you has called for it. I'm don't know why people are townreading me as I don't think I've done anything that warrants that view, but I'm also not going to provide my claim on the basis that you alone have asked for it. I will, however, note that it is odd that, so far, none of the "time travel" claims have been given. As such, I'll at least give a softclaim: my character is related to the anime series Steins;Gate in some way.
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I'm going to pick this back up again tomorrow morning - it's late and I need to get some sleep. I'll post reads early tomorrow as well so that we can hopefully nail down a lynch.
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@Savant
I'm catching up. I have seen some previous statements you made as regards how Pie views Barney for the late game, but apart from that, I haven't seen much explanation for what makes him anti-town. I've got my own thoughts, but my issues with him stem from how he has called for my character claim, backed off of that call when a couple of people said they townread me, and came back to it only to get similar treatment. My experience with him has been that if he felt it was worthwhile, he'd argue for what he's seeking, and the lack of attention on it beyond asking DD a question about why he's not seeking it doesn't sit right with me.
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@Barney
We have to stop doing this. People will talk.
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Fixed, put it next to Savant accidentally.
DASHBOARD
Player Character Role
Austin ⌛ will be confirmed by MYLO ???
iLikePie 🗣️ Possibly about mail in ballots
Disc ⌛ Went on a long rant as well. Well played.
Savant ⌛
whiteflame ⌛
Lunatic 🗣️
Casey 🗣️ "We'll Do It Live!" ???
Joebob 🗣️
Owen 🗣️
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@Casey_Risk
Alright. I'm willing to leave it at that, but we'll see what everyone else has to say about it.
DASHBOARD
Player Character Role
Austin ⌛ will be confirmed by MYLO ???
iLikePie 🗣️ Possibly about mail in ballots
Disc ⌛ Went on a long rant as well. Well played.
Savant ⌛ "We'll Do It Live!" ???
whiteflame ⌛
Lunatic 🗣️
Casey 🗣️
Joebob 🗣️
Owen 🗣️
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@Casey_Risk
I was referencing Bill O'Reilly's famous "We'll do it live!" rant. That's my character claim. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fXZj4Wy58Pk&pp=ygUcYmlsbCBvcmVpbGx5IGxldHMgZG8gaXQgbGl2ZQ%3D%3D
Yeah, I thought that was pretty obvious. Were you also suggesting a role claim or am I reading too deeply into your post?
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@Savant
Dude I said space our posts out so we don't look like we just talked about it in PM before asking here now it looks super sus.???
Pretty sure he's just comedically drawing attention to the fact that they posted within the same minute.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
@AustinL0926
I see a pretty clear character claim in Casey's post, which definitely fits a rant. As for the role, that's more opaque. I've got a couple of possibilities based on the phrasing and emphasis Casey used.
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@Casey_Risk
While I'm not in agreement with some of the behavioral reasons for sussing Casey, the lack of posting after getting two votes on them definitely doesn't sit well with me, especially since Casey has been online since Barney and Luna posted their votes. We're at 3 votes currently with Savant's post, so I don't mind putting Casey at L-2 to secure a claim:
VTL Casey
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I'd like to go back through the DP tomorrow and give my reads some more thought, but I do want to at least give some idea of who's in my own pile:
Barney's claim just doesn't strike me as something scum would risk. Combine that with the early softclaim of being a misogynist and I just don't buy that he'd throw this out quickly as a fake claim. Similarly, because he's supporting him based on his own role (no, I'm not going to start theorizing on what his role is) Austin comes off as town to me. I'm not sure he's as thoroughly confirmed as Austin would like to believe, but this at least strongly limits his role claim and potentially supports an existing townread claim, which I don't think Austin would do as scum.
Casey is a bit more of a behavioral based on how I've seen them play as scum as well as how their reads have comes across so far. I also just don't think Casey would be as likely to delve into discussions in another thread if they were working out a plan with their scum team. It's focusing outside the bounds of the game, but that's my read on it.
That's all I've got for now. I'm tempted to put Owen in my town pile, but that would largely be on the back of his mostly AI-generated post and being among the first to post "I win with the town" (it's harder to read those who followed him to that same wording), and his contributions beyond that have largely just been very short posts, so it's harder to read him as a whole. I need to do a deeper delve into everyone else, so I'll likely make a larger post to that effect tomorrow.
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@ILikePie5
I know we probably need at least one more claim, so I don't mind being the one to do it if you can get some agreement. I suspect I'll be tough to read regardless, but hey, thems the breaks.
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@Greyparrot
Just because improbable things have happened politically doesn’t mean everything is up for grabs.
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@Greyparrot
That’s been ADOL’s point: that it can happen. I accept that there are levers that could be pulled to do this. I do not accept that they are at all likely to be pulled.
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@Greyparrot
If you think this is really a probable outcome, for the judicial system to invalidate the citizenship for so many people going back so many decades and knowingly creating a huge crisis, then I guess we see things differently.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You implied "can't legally":
I disagree.
They aren't too late. There is no such thing as too late for reinterpretation of law (in US common law theory).
It's too late to do so without inflicting mass harm on a dramatic number of people in the US population. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it could feasibly be implemented.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
"isn't going to", "can't", and "can't legally" are three different things.
Considering I didn't say "can't" or "can't legally," I don't see how that distinction is important to the argument I'm making, nor do I understand how your long response to my point above this one engages with my argument. You're right, courts do apply decisions retroactively. I never argued that they didn't or couldn't in a wide variety of cases. I argued that it's pretty baffling to believe that they would apply such a decision retroactively in this case.
The notion that they would overturn the way the birthright clause has been enforced and then proceed to retroactively strip people of their citizenship going back 6 decades or more (the required time to include Kamala) and affecting what is likely to be tens of millions of people is, in my view, an exceedingly unlikely state of events. If you want to argue that it's plausible on the basis that the courts have applied other cases retroactively, be my guest, but I can't imagine there's been precedent for such a large-scale effort to render such a large portion of the country who, in a lot of cases, may only be citizens of this country, effectively citizens of nowhere.
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@Amber
I think the most charitable interpretation I can give your argument is that there is room for the Supreme Court to potentially change the standard by which the 14th amendment grants citizenship. Even if you're right and the implementation of the birthright clause has been bastardized and abused, it doesn't change the reality of how it's been enforced up to this point, nor does it change the fact that Kamala Harris was born more than 59 years ago and thus was born into a country where the clause had been enforced that way.
It's fine if you don't agree, but your interpretation doesn't change Kamala's legal standing. The absence of a Supreme Court case directly challenging it doesn't serve as support for your case on the constitutionality of the way the birthright clause has been enforced, either. I'm not challenging the merits of your argument because, unless you can somehow get the Supreme Court to take up this case, they're irrelevant, and even if they did, they're over 59 years too late to do so. The Supreme Court isn't going to retroactively deny people the citizenship they were born with.
So, while I think there are lots of problems with your argument, it's entirely besides the point because your argument in no way impacts Kamala Harris's status as a US citizen. You can be entirely correct and still her legal standing doesn't change.
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@ILikePie5
@JoeBob
So why haven’t you said it yet?On page 1 you asked me if I was with town, and I said yes.but by all meansI win with town
To be fair, he did say in response to me earlier that he had the same wording in his PM, he just didn't repeat that wording verbatim like he did this time.
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@Barney
And yes, thinking of hated as diminished value compared to just about any other role, is why I was willing to take things so far to get reads... Not that I expected people to hop on during the night.
I mean, you let yourself get to L-1 without saying anything after putting a vote on yourself. I believe your claim, but that was a very risky move that could have very easily ended in a lynch just because someone thought you still had a vote left. I don't think it would have helped with reads, either. Hell, this wouldn't even be the first time that you had forced us to push you to L-1 to get your claim.
That being said, I'm not going to lynch you solely for claiming Hated, at least not this early and without knowing if it goes away as the game continues. We can cross that bridge if we have to, but I think the claim puts a target on your back that scum generally would avoid putting there without good reason. It's only a town lean for now, since I could see scum making that kind of gambit. Earth and I were considering fake claiming Hated for Simon Blackquill in the Ace Attorney game, but the later it got into the game, the less feasible that was.
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@Barney
Figured it’d be something associated with misogyny given the note on your dashboard. The justification makes sense, and yeah, don’t get the short king element either.
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@Lunatic
@Barney
@ILikePie5
@Discipulus_Didicit
@Savant
Yep, I'm pretty dense. That's a role claim. I'd suggest at least someone unvote so he's not at L-1 anymore.
I think you might as well give your character and justification at this point.
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@JoeBob
OHHHHHI didn’t apparently, that’s on me. The closest thing I got was me saying yes to pie asking if I am with town.
Yep. Not sure how to regard this atm, seemed a little unnecessarily defensive, but I could see you doing that on either side.
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@JoeBob
Because I don’t see a difference in the two. I check for my role and character, and my justification when someone asks for it. I don’t check for the little things like grammar and wether there is a “the” in a sentence.
I think you're missing my point. You just claimed that you "said win with The town". You didn't. I can't find a post where you stated that. I'm not questioning the accuracy of your grammar, I'm questioning why you'd say you posted something when it's clear you didn't, then defend that nonexistent post.
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@Barney
While I appreciate the rant, I don't think Cartman-ing is helping us. I don't believe anyone on your wagon is willing to lynch you based on what you've said so far, but you'll have to give us something to work with.
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@JoeBob
mine also says thatalthough I said win with The town because I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, but clearly these people do.
I agree it's not a big deal. That being said, I can't find a post where you said that you win with town or win with the town, though I did see that you responded to a question from Pie asking if you were town. Not sure why you'd claim you did something you didn't actually do and then say that your actual PM says something different.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Alright, looking back through the posts that makes more sense. I just saw a wagon forming on Barney and thought the initial reasoning for it at least seemed off.
In any case, my experience with Barney is that he's pretty intransigent when it comes to claiming regardless of the side he's on, and while I don't think we should use that decision to scumread him, I also don't think we should let him slide under the radar simply because that's his meta. I'd at least like a partial claim from him - I don't like that his response to pressure was just to vote and then later unvote himself.
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Alright, I'm going to have to push back on this. Maybe the rest of you have "you win with the town" in your PMs, but I don't. Even though my PM was cut in half, my initial post says verbatim:
"You win with town."
So unless we have a good reason to VTL that goes beyond the assumption that WyIted was consistent in his PMs (he obviously wasn't), I'm not going to join this wagon. That being said, I'm not opposed to getting a claim since we need at least a couple to inform a lynch this DP. Barney has already voted for himself and is now at L-2, so hopefully he'll just claim.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Close call, just saved yourself a big rant there.
Damn... guess I'm not worthy.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Because spam posting is generally not a basis for banning someone unless it's absurdly over the top, but thanks for the note.
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Wait, I just looked back at Disc's posts and he said his role is time travel related. Updated for accuracy. Apologies for the error.
DASHBOARD
Player Theme Char Power
Savant Time
ilikepie Rant Possibly about mail in ballots
whiteflame Time
Lunatic
Casey Rant
Joebob Rant
Disc Time Went on a long rant as well. Well played.
Austin Time
Owen Rant
Barney Rant Misogynistic
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@Greyparrot
I've deleted two instances of you repeating one of the above posts, namely this one, since you just repeated the same post tagging or not tagging someone else. Please refrain from spam posting.
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@Barney
Given that there's no theme split on this one, we'll need to scrutinize claims pretty closely. I'll update Barney's Dashboard (appreciate that you're on top of it):
DASHBOARD
Player Theme Char Power
Savant Time
ilikepie Rant Possibly about mail in ballots
whiteflame Time
Lunatic
Casey Rant
Joebob Rant
Disc Rant Possibly third parties in elections... Err, wait, time travel. Lengthy rant about time travel?
Austin Time
Owen Rant
Barney Rant Misogynistic
So, at least on first look, I'm noting an outsized number of rants (6 rants to 3 time travelers). Given the lack of a theme split, I doubt there's much need for scum to fake claim, but that seems peculiar given the even number of votes.
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Also, weird question: anyone else only get half a PM? WyIted has since given me the rest, but people should make sure their PM is complete and they know their role.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Also, epic rant. Love that commitment.
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Well... I had no idea the DP was up for the past 3 hours. So there's that. I guess everyone got to this before me.
Anyway, I'm time travel.
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@Lunatic
If I can get through at least one of the debates I've been asked to vote on before this starts, I should be free enough, so if we can start early next week, I'll be good to go.
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@Savant
No, I would have voted whiteflame and reloaded constantly while being prepared to submit an "Unvote" on my other device. If Earth and Austin had attempted to hammer, they would be confirmed as the scum team. Otherwise, WF is confirmed scum. The reason I would vote WF and not Austin is that I've used that trick on WF before and he wouldn't fall for it twice.
I honestly figured as much. You're right that I wouldn't have fallen for it if you'd done it the other way around, but yes, I expected you to VTL me. You're the only one I was pretty certain would be on me from the outset, just thought I could convince you to vote Austin in the end.
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