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@ILikePie5
So here’s the problem with this claim. Guard Posts don’t have a range themselves. You can click on other defenses and see a circle for their range. That doesn’t work for the guard posts. The troops in the guard post aren’t also clickable.
The way it's framed in my PM is that they can protect buildings out of range of other defensive buildings. I assumed that meant they had extended range, hence my paraphrasing.
The second part is also shady. Guard posts themselves don’t identify enemy troops. The troops part of the guard post attack enemy troops. There’s nothing to do with identifying them, much less before the enemy troops attack the base.
The idea is that they're identified before arriving at the base. I assumed that meant that the player could see them and know what kind of attack was coming.
You can deploy your troops far from the guard post on the opposite side of the base and the troops part of the post won’t come attack unless they are close to the troops themselves. Guard post also doesn’t make sense from an investigative standpoint. It’s a big stretch for an investigative role.
The post does mention the limited number of units as a basis for the limited use case. If they're a part of the range aspect, it's not mentioned.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Can you use it NP 1?
I'd rather leave that one ambiguous.
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@WyIted
When I made my jewdar claim, were you feeling like it was a soft claim for an investigative role, and if yes what were you thinking about that?
I didn’t think it was a soft claim. Came off more as something to gauge my response than anything else.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
assume that by limited use case you mean something like 2x uses or even nights or something of that general nature?
Along those lines, yes.
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@ILikePie5
Hmm. I don’t like this at all. I need to ask Luna something first
Alright, whatever you need to do.
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@ILikePie5
Guard Posts are defensive, they have large ranges, and are good for identifying enemy troops before they hit the base.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Whiteflame - No active scum hunting whatsoever. Though that is normal most of the time in DP 1 when combined with the initial reasons I had them in the lean scum category and the convenient timing of their reads post I feel comfortable leaving them here. Nothing has been done to move them up or down the list in my eyes.
I can't really argue with this since I've been relatively absent. I've tried to contribute to a larger degree when I post, but if you scumread me for the timing, I've already said what explains it.
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@ILikePie5
@Discipulus_Didicit
@WyIted
Alright, I'm back so I'm just going to claim since otherwise this is likely to end in my lynch:
I'm the Guard Post, and my role is the Cop. The role has a limited use case to it, though I think providing that information is net negative to town, so unless someone has a good reason for me to provide it, I'm going to leave my claim here.
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@ILikePie5
@WyIted
Like I said, I’m going to be busy for a couple of hours (thanks for the condolences WyIted), but I’ll claim if desired when I come back online later.
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Alright, I’m catching up on the DP at this point. Good to see Mharman’s involved now (props for also having a giant read set - good to know I’m not alone).
I wont be available for a couple of hours because I’ll be in services at my synagogue (unfortunately, a close friend of my wife’s passed away yesterday), but I’ll engage more when I get home tonight.
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@Barney
I want to hear the sob story. Tell me about your tragic backstory. As for me, I only need about $3.50.
But yes, I know that this is mostly based on intuition. Maybe the idea was to put the read out there to see how people would respond to it, or maybe it's just a gutread that is widely shared for some reason. Wouldn't be a first.
You've definitely managed to throw me for a loop on more than one occasion, so that tryhard attitude doesn't come across as readily anymore. There's value to chaos.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Whiteflame just happening to post a five paragraph essay less than 15 minutes directly following my scum read on him despite being absent up to that point (and you can tell he typed it out after my reads because he mentioned my reads in it) and Savant being the only person to post in the interim has triggered my tunnel vision.
I was on for a good half an hour or so typing that up, though I know you can't verify that. As for why I included a response to your reads in it when I started writing it earlier, that's because I'm a bit OCD about how I do them: I read through the DP, then as I'm writing up my thoughts, I'll check out profiles and leaf through each person's posts to see if there are any patterns that stand out. I got to your profile a little over halfway through and saw that you had posted your reads, so I incorporated them into my analysis.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Would appreciate a ping if you're going to VTL me.
It's late and I'm really tired, so I'm heading off for the night. I guess I understand the VTL since I'm in your scum pile, even if I don't really get why I'm there. I'll be around more tomorrow so we can cover it then.
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Sorry I've been absent for much of the DP so far. Had the day off, but a combination of keeping my dog calm as fireworks go off outside and taking my wife to the stables for a riding lesson (sincerely don't know why she did it in this heat) kept me busy.
That being said, I've read over the DP and I've got thoughts to get out before I try to sleep through this cacophany.
Wylted - Given his stated claim, I think it's very likely that WyIted is town. That being said, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that we've had a scum mason before (I want to say it was GP who had the role), and the Neighborizer doesn't look distinct, so I can't say that he's confirmed town. The timing of the claim is a bit off to me (he wasn't under pressure from anyone apart from Pie), and the role is inherently unconfirmable until DP2 given that it's an odd night usage, but given that the role at least can be confirmed, he's my strongest townread.
420-1776 - As others have already suggested, I'm tempted to see him as pretty townie for his responses so far, especially the statement that there's "one murderer" and not understanding a town slip. The way it's stated just doesn't come off as something he would be coached into saying by a partner, I just don't buy it. So at least behaviorally, he's town.
iLikePie5 - I've seen Pie pull pretty similar tactics as town and scum. He's been a little less aggressive this time around (I haven't seen him recruiting strongly for lynches or pinging more people to draw attention to a given post), but that doesn't strongly indicate anything for me. The post that draws my eye more than anything is #106, and while it is parroting a point made by WyIted about where attention has been drawn and why Savant has been focused on 420 over other players, I do think it's valid. The back-and-forth hasn't looked like buddying for much of this DP, so I'm slightly townreading Pie atm.
Savant - While I agree with Savant's initial post about people deriving too much from limited posts, I do think his focus on 420 over other players so far is odd. He shifts in his latest post to saying that he's just saying "it's a possibility," which seems like he's hedging more in his argument. I get his perspective that there's reason to get more posts and see if anything comes up that changes our perspective on him, but it's not just WyIted's intuition that is at play here. I'm still puzzling out his posts, but this seems very WIFOM-focused.
Discipulus_didicit - Null for now. It's been a while since I've seen DD play and I'd like to re-read some of his previous games. Not sure I get where his vibes are coming from or where his scum lean on me derives (I guess I did say Jew, you got me there), but his posts prior to his reads have been short and targeted and I think his early pushback on efforts to sus 420 make me townread him a bit.
Barney - I'm trying to understand the townreads on Barney. I see 5 posts so far in the DP, the first two of which are joke posts (I did like them), as is the fourth. The third post had some substance in the view that Casey being declared town by WyIted somehow gave WyIted town cred, and while I understand why WyIted might be prone to townreading that, I don't get why anyone else would. And the last post is just a perspective on whether claims do more harm than good. He's a null read for me atm, nothing here stands out.
Mharman - Absent so far. Null.
Casey_risk - The early post picking up the lack of a theme split still has me slightly townreading them. Not really sure what to make of their post about playing The Resistance with their grandmother, who I guess was feigning ignorance and scooped the game, but they're townreading 420 as well in spite of that uncertainty, so this is still a town lean for me.
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@WyIted
Why do you guys always do this. White nationalists are Jewish supremacists. They ascribe a lot of genius and will to power to them. They don't say these things in a positive way but it is obvious they are ascribing superior qualities to them, than they themselves possess. I wouldn't call it jealousy but more of a distrust of a higher consciousness they can't hope to understand.
Don't think that's how they see it, but I'm not going to push back on the belief that Jews are a higher consciousness. Anything that gets people to stop talking about the space lasers we definitely don't have...
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@Casey_Risk
Ah, I missed that. I guess I won't be focusing on a theme split at all then, though I'll still do my due diligence and see if it helps with assessing claims.
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@WyIted
Okay time for a full claim. I am david Duke and my power is jewdar. Anyone else with any Klan claims that we need?
Guess that tracks with the Wizard... which you aren't claiming. Can't say I have anything to do with white supremacy, but hey, maybe there's something I don't know about these games.
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@Casey_Risk
Alright, good to be back in this. It was a great cruise, btw. Been years since I've taken a vacation that wasn't chiefly aimed at going to see family or friends.
Like I said in the sign-up, this is not a topic I know anything about, but I'll endeavor to keep up. That being said, I don't know why we're jumping to the conclusion that there isn't a theme split. Don't see anything about that in the OP.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yep, not too much going on here.
Life's been steady. Got a house, so I'm bucking the trend of my fellow millennials in that department. Also went on a cruise this past week. That was a blast.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Hey DD, long time no see. How have you been?
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Don't know anything about the theme, but I'm /in for that swing.
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@Lunatic
We'll actually be going through the Caribbean, heading down to Cozumel. It's going to be a relatively short trip, but should be a good time - traveling with my brother and his family.
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@WyIted
Thanks! We had a good time on a cruise about 4 years ago, worked out pretty well.
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@AustinL0926
Understandably. I wouldn’t hold it against you, but I’ll be on a cruise through to Monday and traveling on Tuesday.
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I’ll go with OG DART. FYI, if I’m going to participate in this one, it’ll have to start on Wednesday next week, so if you get enough people without me before then, just go ahead and run it.
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@Lunatic
GGs. Yeah my argument for Austin is that he doesn’t make mistakes like that as scum, obviously was wrong on that. Guess he is a human being too. It just seemed wierd for Austin to make a mistake like that as a scum because he has a track record of dominating as scum, so that’s why I didn’t buy that he was scum
Baffled me too, Luna, but I couldn’t find a way to square him being town after that. Just didn’t make sense anymore. Also, get out of my head!
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@JoeBob
true. for the past two times I’ve been scum I’ve just blindly followed what my scum partner told me to do without second thought. im gonna try not to do that anymore.
To be fair, it almost worked for us.
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Yeah… that went about as wrong for scum as it possibly could. I dragged out DP1 a bit because I wanted to see what Austin could come up with in response. What can I say? I liked watching him squirm.
As for JoeBob… yeah, that sucks dude. I think your only choice was to CC Austin’s game immediately, and absent that, you were always going to be scumread on his flip. Generally bad strategy to tie yourself too closely to your scum partner and this was inescapable the moment you guys decided to claim each other’s games. It gave you a brief out when we noticed there wasn’t a Mafia RB in your game, but wasn’t worth the cost.
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Fuck it. At this point, either Austin's going to get lynched this DP or next. If he's town, we'll manage this next DP.
VTL Austin
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@Earth
Okay, you guys are struggling. I can see I am town, so I'm voting Austin.
Seriously, dude, can you at least explain why you're voting? It's between you and Austin for the vote at this point and your just hopping on the lynch with this as an explanation is fucking frustrating.
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@AustinL0926
now I'm getting pushed for claiming in a way that I tried to help town despite not a single person explaining why I would possibly do that as scum.
See, it's statements like this that keep setting me off. You've acknowledged now several times that it was a bad move to make as town. You've also said there is no way you would make this move as scum because it's obviously bad. Ignoring the fact that I've given a set of reasons for why you might make this move as scum out of desperation, which I think are plausible, it nonetheless is strange that you're treating the anti-town nature of this choice as more town-leaning than scum-leaning. I think you would acknowledge that this was a bad decision either way. If you're town, it draws attention to you and runs counter to your stated strategy. If you're scum, it draws attention to you. The fact that you keep pointing out that it doesn't make sense as scum doesn't change the fact that it's a bad strategy either way.
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@AustinL0926
So what would you do in my situation where I'm being tunneled, likely investigated, leading to a mislynch and a waste of a DP? Idk wtf I was supposed to do here except leave Savant alone because anyone voting him must automatically be scum in his eyes.
I gave that at length already, but I'll do it again. If I believed I'd be a likely mislynch the next DP, I'd double down on my efforts to get NK'd, particularly with a claimed Cop on the board who is likely to be protected during the night. Softclaiming a confirmable PR would have been a better move since you could have drawn the NK. Now you can't, and I think you know well enough that just straight claiming Miller at this point was bound to get you lynched this DP or next, but if you're town and didn't think that, then discarding your effort to distract the NK still makes you virtually worthless to town while significantly moving you up the sus list at a point where everyone else is still split on their choices for a lynch. Not a great play.
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There’s just generally a whole lot of WIFOM responses I’m getting from Austin. I agree, this was a silly move if Austin was scum. It’s a silly move if Austin is town. It’s silly all around because it was obviously anti-town and defensive. No matter what he flips, the choice to claim this role this late reeks of desperation.
If he’s a desperate townie, then he misplayed his role very badly and is getting scumread for something he could have at least partially salvaged by staying mum about his role or softclaiming.
If he’s desperate scum expecting to be copped, then this is a last ditch effort. A mistaken one (there was always the chance that Savant would have copped someone else or been interfered with), but it is nonetheless an effort to shake both the cop and the lynch.
I sincerely don’t get how Luna so solidly believes that Austin must be town beyond just saying he expected more from Austin if he was scum. Difference between Austin’s previous games and this one: he didn’t have a claimed Cop with clear intentions to target him during NP1. Maybe there’s more to it than that. Maybe Austin would never do this as scum even under pressure. I just don’t buy it.
I’ll wait a bit before locking in my vote, but at this rate, Austin’s either going to be the lynch this DP or next, and I’d rather get rid of him and put the focus elsewhere next DP, whether he’s town or scum.
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@AustinL0926
I'll be honest I've been playing some live mafia on some other sites and you can usually get away with last-minute claims (e.g. in a 20 min DP claim 2-3 min before night). Probably shouldn't have tried it here though.
For a 20 minute long DP in live mafia, maybe, but we’re talking about a three day long DP and, specifically, the Miller here. It didn’t work, dude. Whether you knew it was going to fly or not, it’s obviously scummy.
I acknowledged that my claim harmed town. That doesn't mean it makes me scum (scum behavior is harming town while trying to hide it), and I've openly admitted to making a bad call. The problem is that scum are using this opportunity to force a mislynch by encouraging everyone to ignore behavior and let lurkers (which are openly harmful to later DPs) live and killing off active and townread players.
So clearly anti-town behavior, that you actively acknowledge is anti-town, is less important than lurking. I disagree, though this argument seems to be more about what makes the game more interesting and less about why we should scumread said lurkers. Not really a reason to shift targets so much as frustration with activity. Also, who started this wagon again? Was it scum? Pretty sure it was Savant, the claimed Cop.
Again, I know it's a bad call, but it doesn't make me scum and it's suspicious that Wylted suddenly thinks it is. Whiteflame, seriously tell me, what's the difference between me claiming now and me claiming early on? It's mechanically equivalent and I did it because I genuinely believed that hiding my role would have benefited town right up to the point where I thought Savant wasn't going to stop tunneling me.
I don’t think you need me to explain that. Claiming SOP would have made this look far less defensive. I’m almost certainly not alone in thinking that lynching claimed SOP roles is not my default. When it becomes defensive because someone thinks they’re going to be the target of the Cop, especially when that same person says their decision came from trying to bide the NK, that’s a different story. Whether you were tunneled or not, as town, at the very least, you could have made yourself a potential target for scum. You took that away the moment you claimed Miller and made yourself the obvious lynch target by being defensive and sussing people on your wagon who are there for obvious reasons. So yes, it matters, whether you acknowledge it or not.
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@WyIted
At this point, I’m willing to VTL him. If there’s no where else to get the final vote, I understand switching, but I hope we don’t go there.
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@AustinL0926
@Savant
@WyIted
As I see it, a town Austin who is making this kind of play would know that straight claiming Miller at this point was a near guaranteed lynch. It’s practically a given. So assuming that he had suddenly realized he couldn’t shake the probability that he would be targeted by the Cop, the move that makes the most sense is to double down: claim a confirmable role and hope that he becomes the target of the NK. That’s the whole point of not SOP claiming that he laid out, and he’d know that being copped guilty effectively ends him, so he’d just be hoping to be killed first. More importantly, town Austin would very well understand why the wagon would shift onto him this strongly as a result of his claim. It looks bad. He knows it.
Scum Austin doesn’t have that luxury. He could pretend he was biding out the NK, but he also couldn’t risk hard claiming a confirmable role next DP if pushed, since it could easily be CC’d. He has to claim Miller now and hope that the behavioral townreads will carry him because, just like town Austin, he knows he’s dead if he is copped guilty. He needs some cover for that now because he’ll have none next DP. And scum Austin would also have every reason to sus the growing wagon on him in an effort to buck it instead of acknowledging the obvious reason it’s forming. It’s supremely weird that Austin has now several times acknowledged his mistake, but susses the impetus and continued growing of the wagon on him.
So, yeah, we’ve got roughly an hour and 20 minutes before the DP ends. I want to hear how these choices should yield a townread because I do not see it. I can understand a town Austin panicking and even outing his role this late, but actively sussing another player for being on a now obvious wagon just doesn’t make sense to me as town. If he wasn’t going to be lynched this DP, he almost certainly would be in the next one.
So before I vote, Austin, explain.
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@AustinL0926
My post was about it being a bad idea to claim SOP roles, right after someone asked for SOP roles to claim. Hence, I was hinting that I wasn't claiming my SOP role for a reason. Not really sure how else you interpret that.
I interpreted pretty straightforwardly: that you were giving your thoughts on SOP claims and whether they should be given. That’s true whether you had one or not.
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@AustinL0926
It would be one thing if I claimed my role under pressure, but I'm claiming here out of calculated risk-reward to help town.
I can call this move a lot of things. “Calculated” is not one of them. You’re guaranteed to be our lynch unless someone else proves clearly sus just because your role is unconfirmable and negative utility, but you’ve made it worse by selecting a uniquely bad time to give it.
Look I know I didn't play this very well, but I really hope you respect my play enough to know I wouldn't do smth so dumb as scum. I'm doing this because I think based on the way the DP's going, Savant is going to make a bad investigation call and it's going to blow up DP2.
If you’re town, you put yourself in a really bad spot and chose just about the worst time to claim. It’s as negative utility as you could make it. No I don’t believe you’d plan to do this as scum. I do believe that you might see the signs that you could be copped during the NP and try to prevent the damage before it happens. I don’t think at that point that it matters much whether you’re town or scum - you’re in the same boat regardless.
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@AustinL0926
@Savant
So I'll get out my thoughts now.
On the one hand, I want to read Austin as town for this because I think it's an incredibly bad choice for scum. This almost seems tailor-made to draw attention to you.
On the other hand... sincerely, what the fuck dude?
Claiming this late in the DP is necessarily going to lead to some sussing. You've effectively made this a "worst of both worlds" situation. If you viewed this as an SOP claim, you would have claimed it early. You clearly viewed it differently, as evidenced by you saying that an "SOP role will always lead to measurable harm for town because it narrows the POE". WyIted would probably have agreed with you... before you claimed. WyIted would likely have continued to hide it and hope that no one Cops you or that scum just kill you because they think you're a PR of some import. That's a risky move, but it could result in a major benefit.
What you did gave away any potential benefit and instead necessarily draws attention to you. You say that you've been trying to make yourself look townie in the hopes of avoiding being Copped. Well, this claim does the exact opposite. I could have made some sense out of you claiming under pressure when Savant had a vote on you and there was a wagon forming. It would have also been bad timing, but at least I could understand that your efforts to not claim a POE role had just blown up in your face. It makes a whole lot less sense when there's no wagon on you and Savant is actively sussing other players. It's defensive and clearly, as you state, an effort to ensure that you are not the target of investigation.
All that aside, dude, while that "breadcrumbing" post certainly indicates your thoughts on claiming POE roles, it's not at all indicative of your being SOP yourself or of your being the Miller. I get none of that. So, I'll give you a bit of time to explain yourself, but you just jumped to the top of my scum pile for this.
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Ugh, this is really frustrating.
I just got home and I’d like to type out my thoughts on my computer after I’m done handling a couple of things here. I know there’s not a lot of time left, but I’ll detail my thoughts ASAP.
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@Lunatic
And considering I just got out of a mafia champ game where two / three scum were coasting along I am a little more suspicious of coasting players atm. For the record we didn’t lynch one scum in that game. It was brutal
That's rough dude. I know we've had some instances of it here, but it's particularly brutal in a game where you have to keep up with so much to have so many arguments and finger pointing be directed at town.
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@WyIted
Let's do the joebob lynch. I am on board and it just feels like the lynch that is viable but not as easy as the rest with no clear indication of why it would be the least easy other than scum influence
Behaviorally, I understand where you’re coming from. I’m not as certain when it comes to his claim. At minimum, I see some reason to give him the opportunity to confirm his role, so I’ll need to think about it.
As a general rule, though, just because a lynch is coming off as more difficult to get through isn’t going to make me more likely to get on it. You can chalk it up to scum influence, but I’m not so sure.
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@AustinL0926
-First, let's agree it's pretty unlikely for either of them to be fakeclaiming. Even if we assume it's possible, the risk-reward ratio doesn't make sense. In the best case scenario, they simply get a different game with no increase in towncred. In the worst case, they instantly get lynched DP1. Especially in the chaos of everyone pressuring for game claims early, I find it highly unlikely that one of them chose to take this risk.-Mafia roles on Joe's game: Actress, Watcher, Ninja-Mafia roles on Earth's game: Roleblocker, JOAT (Rolecop/Strongman/Janitor), TrackerJoe's game doesn't have a roleblocker, so he can't be covering for his own role. It's possible that if he was scum, his buddy would be covering for him instead, but this seems unlikely, since in case of any Joe flip then that would implicate the few games that have a scum roleblocker.
I think you make a pretty good point, at least on the JoeBob front. If he doesn't have reason to cover for an RB during the NP, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that he'd fake claim an RB.
I will point out, though, that Earth is more prone to taking big risks with his fake claim. He did so last game with the JOAT role. I think he'd be more likely to take a bigger risk than he did with his claim this DP (the JOAT meant he could be CC'd on four different roles), but it's not impossible that he'd take this direction with it this time around.
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I’m going to think about it for a bit and make my decision later. This is an opportunity for both JoeBob and Earth to contribute to the DP in a way that will hopefully tip the scales.
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@Lunatic
I’m in a similar boat. I hate to be pushing this hard on inactives - frankly, it comes off as lazy and it has resulted in a lot of mislynches in previous games - but when the most active players come off as town based on their behavior, it’s hard not to default to them. I still don’t think we should discount Casey, and much as I still think Moozer is the scummiest based on the limited behavior we’ve gotten, I really don’t want another claim at this point. Hence:
Unvote
Among claimed players, like you, it’s between JoeBob and Earth for me. Gut read says JoeBob by a small margin, since his behavior is out of sync with previous games. The Commuter claim stands out more, but my read on the town RB is largely the result of WIFOM atm.
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@Savant
Moozer was lying though, so the game wasn't actually used. And no reason Bookie couldn't have been recycled twice.
Maybe, though I think even that fake claim would be unlikely to be replicated, particularly if he was scum.
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@Lunatic
I think he discussed fake claiming BG, though could be wrong.
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