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@Casey_Risk
Sorry, I mistyped that. Yeah, I meant you. I made the same mistake not too long ago and it made me rethink how I was approaching later DPs. Worth considering as much information as you can, even if you feel pretty strongly that one person is scum.
I’m glad you participated with us, and I hope you’ll do so again in the future.
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@Savant
Barney voting himself made me laugh because Austin and I had a whole contingency plan of me pretending to try to hammer myself but Austin unvoting a second before I posted. Basically, to convince everyone I couldn't be scum.
Wouldn't have worked on me, but it probably would have made some of the others hesitate.
Honestly, I just hope we don't pull this "this player gets a pass through DP1" nonsense again. They said the same thing last game when you and I were scum, though they ended up voting you because you were more behaviorally obvious. You did better behaviorally this time around. Love that Austin was basically saying "yeah, my scum partner will reveal himself behaviorally as scummy if you give him another DP." I thought that was a pretty ridiculous argument.
Also, it would really be nice if BK didn't throw over the table because he was bored in DP2. He was doing pretty well in DP1, which makes it all the more frustrating.
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@AustinL0926
I thought it was reasonable enough. You and Luna were obviously targets, Casey a PGO, I needed to scumread Barney, and I was pretending I hadn't read the last few pages of DP2 so I could say I thought BK spewed Joe as scum.
Yeah, I don’t know how he was thinking about it, but JoeBob would have been the ideal target if you were town given what you said before. Just didn’t make much sense to me to pick Savant over him. I would have understood not picking Luna on the off chance that I’d be RB’d.
Tbh I was gambling that Casey and Joe would buy it and that Luna would be too busy at work lol.
You definitely got Casey. Hell, you even had Barney convinced there was nothing he could do to defend himself.
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@AustinL0926
@Savant
Were you online during dp3, and if so, when did you realize it was definitely Austin and I?
As soon as he posted that wall of text. The fact that he used his role on you was confusing, but not obviously scummy. The long and detailed explanation of why Barney was scummy came off as way too much for something that was relatively obvious and that Barney had already admitted to doing. The subsequent vote didn’t help - jumping on the lynch that quickly with any odds of a quick hammer wouldn’t make sense for a town Austin who would have spent at least some time talking this out with the most townread player (Luna) before securing anything.
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@Savant
Bit of a mystery to me as well, but Austin backing me up probably helped with that.
I had a strong feeling he was scum at the end of the DP, especially given how much he was backing you. He was much less obvious in DP2, so I reconsidered my read, but he would have been in my PoE come DP3. Not that that would have mattered.
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@ILikePie5
You had it figured out perfectly in DP1. I was astonished that town lost this game. Literally a doc, 1x BP, , Bodyguard all died. And the bleeder doesn’t get lynched? That’s gotta be criminal
Yeah, I sincerely couldn’t tell you why it was consistently an uphill battle to get Savant lynched.
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This was really frustrating. Something seemed to go wrong at every single day phase this game: the no lynch in DP1, the fucking baffling play from BK in DP2, and the rush to lynch Barney in DP3.
It’s especially frustrating because I was calling for a lynch on Savant early and, unlike last game, it was just universally decided that he should get to survive the DP despite the CC. He got passed over again in DP2 and virtually everyone ignored him in DP3 in favor of the easy lynch. I understand that we got distracted by BK in DP2, but I still don’t get the strong desire to let Savant reach DP2.
In DP3, no one questioned why Austin used his role on Savant, a player he’d been scumreading in previous DPs? I understand scumreading Barney after his role blew up in his face, and I definitely get Austin and Savant’s rushing it, but I sincerely don’t know why both Barney and Chris rushed to a lynch (come on, Barney, you could have fought at least a little before just voting yourself). At minimum, people should have interrogated the actions of players instead of jumping on lynches.
It’s especially frustrating because I was calling for a lynch on Savant early and, unlike last game, it was just universally decided that he should get to survive the DP despite the CC. He got passed over again in DP2 and virtually everyone ignored him in DP3 in favor of the easy lynch. I understand that we got distracted by BK in DP2, but I still don’t get the strong desire to let Savant reach DP2.
In DP3, no one questioned why Austin used his role on Savant, a player he’d been scumreading in previous DPs? I understand scumreading Barney after his role blew up in his face, and I definitely get Austin and Savant’s rushing it, but I sincerely don’t know why both Barney and Chris rushed to a lynch (come on, Barney, you could have fought at least a little before just voting yourself). At minimum, people should have interrogated the actions of players instead of jumping on lynches.
All that being said… yeah, Austin played this one pretty well. I don’t think he was ever going to be lynched ahead of Barney after that total role block overlapped with his own role - never would have known to expect that.
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I’ll consider it. Put me in backups for now.
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@Best.Korea
Thanks for putting 4 votes on me and basically not letting Lunatic confirm himself.These town failures are epic.
I mean... three things.
One, Luna submitted his vote to Moozer ages ago. It doesn't matter if we all VTL'd you now, it would still take priority.
Two, it's five votes to lynch, so it doesn't matter anyway.
Three, none of this matters towards how we view Luna. You put so much stock in demonstrating roles and none in behavior for some reason. The kind of bussing your talking about here would be possible whether he demonstrates his role or not, and we already know that Moozer is prone to giving out weird roles, some of which could go to scum. So either Luna is confirmed now based on the fact that he got you to out yourself as scum, or he'll never be confirmed no matter what he does.
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@Lunatic
I am just fucking with Bk here lol. Moozer should confirm his lynch soon
All good, love the mind games.
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@Lunatic
Could be. Would it even matter? I guess you could spin that I bussed BK but if I got him to admit that he was scum that’s about the most town confirmed thing I could do without a role lol
It doesn't change how I see you, but it does mean I should at least be shifting my vote to make sure we execute this lynch at some point. Just don't want us to become complacent and assume the DP's over if it isn't.
Just in case:
Unvote
VTL BK
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@Best.Korea
I wouldnt be surprised if austin gets role blocked next np as well. Yeah, so far, you confirmed only 1 player, Earth, who happens to be dead because you refused to protect him.
You have a weird concept of "confirmed." You tell yourself that, I guess.
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@Lunatic
Btw BK… what if I told you I was bluffing this whole time? That not only am I not the King role, I’m basically a killer. And I got you to admit you were scum? XD never reveal your affiliation til the fat lady sings!
Is that really true or are you just having some fun at this point?
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@Best.Korea
You cannot confirm that he used his role and that mafia didnt just role blocked or faked it, but sure.
At least two RBs, one of which resulted in you being basically confirmed scum, but it was "role blocked or faked"? Sure. Let's go with that.
Luna dies before next dp.
I wish your partner good luck with that.
And who will he message, exactly? Who is left?Yeah, I can see this is gonna go wrong for town, but oh well, it would have been even worse if I played right.
Pretty sure he'll figure it out. Austin is capable of picking a target who is likely town and likely to survive NP2. He's also pretty widely townread at this point, and your response here seems to confirm that that's how we should see him, so thank you.
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@Lunatic
Let’s be honest behavior plays a lot more into Poe here than role confirmation. Bk was big on pushing role confirmation and look what he turned out as. I don’t need every player to be role confirmed for me to be able to investigate if they are guilty or not
True enough. I suspect I won't be townread behaviorally by everyone, but I do think behavior should be a substantial factor. It's going to be more difficult to use as an indicator with Casey or JoeBob because of their relative inactivity.
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@Best.Korea
Well, at least you've saved us waiting for Moozer to confirm you're guilty. I don't know why you're continuing to post about how we'll never figure this out - I guess that's a choice.
Regardless, we now know that scum was most definitely given fake character claims. BK's Mipha claim came in well before mine and Earth's, so he clearly knew the character was available before making the claim. From everything he has said so far, I think we can safely say that BK wasn't given the Doctor role as a fake claim, so it's still possible that scum has received two fake character claims.
That being said, Barney has already confirmed himself through the use of his role and Luna will be confirmed as soon as the DP ends. Austin will likely confirm his role during the NP, and though that remains to be seen, I'd say it's unlikely at this point that he's scum. That leaves Casey, me, JoeBob and Savant. I agree with Luna that Savant's behavior with BK doesn't scream "scum team," so I'm not as solid on his lynch given BK's impending flip. Hopefully, I'll die during NP2, reducing PoE a bit so that you guys can narrow this down.
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@Lunatic
True, either way, even less likelihood for third roleblocker, or that the roleblocker was roleblocked
Might mean I actually get to use my role this NP.
Honestly I like the claim. It seems to fit with moozers style a bit more, and the fact that he was confused about the justification makes sense to me, I felt that way on a few of the roles from LOTR. It's also why I am kind of buying Austin's role too. The wierder the role, the more easier for me to buy it. Same with yours. Hoenstly another point to why BK's simple role of 2x doctor strikes me as scummy.
I don't think Barney would go out of his way to claim this role after you already said you'd submitted your decision to Moozer, and I just don't think he'd risk claiming an RB as scum. Maybe that's a bit WIFOM, but like you, I buy the claim. As for BK's 2X Doc, I did notice that he claimed it after Earth claimed the 2X Cop, so he could have been coasting on that a bit. That being said, there was a Cop, so there being a Doc doesn't seem out of the question, at least insofar as simple roles go.
If you are scum you played a good game. I totally town read you behaviorally. But we will get you next phase if so.
Honestly, at this point, I hope I'm right and scum don't have an RB so I can use my role. With BK as the lynch, I'd just prefer to eat an NK so that we can reduce PoE a bit instead of losing a solidly townread player because I know everyone should have at least some doubts about me.
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@Lunatic
Also, just to be clear, Austin’s role failure might have been the result of Earth’s death rather than an RB. It would fail either way.
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Alright, so I’m just kind of baffled as to why Barney decided to wait this long to claim with a role that:
a) would have short-circuited a lot of this discussion about the existence of a double RB, and
b) would have restricted the lynch options significantly better if we had known about it.
Well, I guess better late than never. It’s a crazy claim, and I’m not convinced it’s real, but here we are. The die has been cast and we’ll see what happens.
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@AustinL0926
It's fine dude. I let it get to me and didn't respond particularly well myself, so I apologize for that, but like most times there's arguments in Mafia, I moved on when we shifted to the next DP.
And yeah, still considering my read on BK. Going to reread his posts tomorrow.
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@Lunatic
There’s no need for an immediate vote, but a lynch is happening this DP and you’re the one who’s going to execute it. Would appreciate your thoughts.
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@Savant
Suffice it to say that I’m not immediately jumping on the lynch wagon for BK. Vote’s staying where it is until I come back and reread these posts.
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@AustinL0926
Ok but can we talk about BK's goddamn atrocious behavior for a sec? Completely ignoring arguments, admitting to doing so but not caring, and attempting to lynch a confirmable player? Like wtf?
Yeah… I don’t really get it. He keeps talking about how the game is solved and jumping to conclusions I can’t follow. I’m going to take a break from this for a bit and read back through some of these posts.
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@Barney
@Best.Korea
@AustinL0926
I'm still not sure who is the likely scum partner for Savant at this point. Austin's in my PoE, but I don't think he's an auto-lynch by any means going into the next DP if Savant flips scum. I'd like to get Barney's full claim (sincerely don't know why I'm the only one who is asking for it - several other people claimed to be confirmable and they have all given their roles) before even considering a second scum.
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@Savant
Well at least one of us is a town member, and neither of this are buying your pseudo-cc theory. We can't both be doing WIFOM.
Yeah... I'm not continuing this argument. Yes, it's likely that only one of you is scum. The other doesn't see it as a CC for reasons I don't understand. That doesn't affect the lynch choice, so I don't know why you're still arguing. All the rest of us see it as a CC, even if you genuinely don't.
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@Savant
Does this not contradict "JoeBob as scum would have every reason to push the perception that you are scum as well."
So... you're admitting that it's WIFOM thinking either way? Good, glad we're on the same page.
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@Savant
So by this logic, why am I not pushing JoeBob?
Because revealing he's town means you're the obvious suspect the next DP.
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@Savant
Now you're getting it. If JoeBob is town and WF's theory is true, then he should be insisting the claim confirms that I am scum.
See, now this is WIFOM. JoeBob as scum would have every reason to push the perception that you are scum as well. The difference is that scum JoeBob would have a partner who is pushing him to do just that. But, hey, that's WIFOM too.
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@Barney
I think we shouldn't lynch anyone until after Lunatic gets on to explain himself.
I agree. I'm treating my vote as a placeholder. I'll remove it if needed to ensure that Luna can cast the deciding vote.
In case a lynch happens while I'm at dinner, I did some calculations and I can promise (to like 95% certainty) that either Whiteflame or Best.Korea are scum, and with 100% certainty that the other is town.
I suppose it's possible that BK is scum, though I have a hard time believing it, mainly because of his character claim. I'll consider it.
Also, is there any particular reason you're still keeping your claim in the dark? You're the only one without a role claim atm.
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@AustinL0926
Can you name a single contribution Joebob has made this game other than the CC? This is exactly how he played in Battlebots Mafia, just lurking and occasionally making a fluffpost or sheepvote.
He was fluffposting a lot more in that game. If anything, I noted he was a little more active than usual, chiming in at various points to look more involved. I'm not townreading him for his inactivity, but I also don't see him crafting a role like this out of whole cloth or having a scum partner (whether new or old to this) give him advice to create and use it.
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@Best.Korea
The case for lynching him hasn't changed because nothing about the NP affects it. Either JoeBob or Savant are almost certainly lying. No one is questioning that you're telling the truth about not being able to use your role, so it's just a question of whether I'm lying. Killing me leaves open the question of why there's a pretty clear CC between JoeBob and Savant that will only go addressed when one of them dies. Killing Austin addresses none of the contradictions and oddities, so I don't see him as a viable target. I give JoeBob some edge over Savant for the CC. So, I'll put my vote back on him, like it was at the start of the last DP:
VTL Savant
If Savant flips scum, we know JoeBob is almost certainly town and we move on. If Savant flips town, JoeBob and I are obvious suspects.
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Also, to be clear, I don’t think Austin should be the lynch at this point. At minimum, he should get an opportunity to prove his role. It’s either me or Savant.
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@Best.Korea
At this point, if it helps PoE more to lynch me, then I’m fine with it. Like I said, my role’s almost certainly useless at this point, particularly if scum have two RBs. I’ll likely be a target for one of those, but that’s about all the utility I have.
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@Savant
At this point, I don’t see reason to keep arguing this with you. I think you’ve undercut your own logic for pushing the lynch on me several times, but I’ve said all I have to say on the matter.
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@Best.Korea
Savant and austinSavant and whiteflameWhiteflame and austinJoe and whiteflameJoe and austin
I honestly don’t understand how you’re getting it down to this subset. I understand leaving Luna out because he can theoretically confirm himself during this DP (and should). I don’t agree with the assumption that it can’t be Barney just because he claimed that he’ll be confirmed by next DP. I agree with not lynching him until then, but he should still be in PoE now.
Also, I sincerely do not understand how anyone could think that, after all the sussing I did of him in DP1, Savant and I are a scum team. If you sincerely believe that’s a plausible scum team based on our behavior so far this DP and last, then nothing I could have said or done up to this point could change that because I’ve been about as blatantly divisive with him as anyone at this point. If you think that’s all staged, then my lynch was a given the moment I claimed my role.
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@Savant
You’re calling me out for doing this because I could have done it laterWhen did I say this?
“Any scum could come up with some excuse for lying later claiming it was helping the town.”
You’re arguing that I could lie about my claim in a later game, so I should be punished for this lie now. Seems straightforward.
Making it easier for scum to fake claim and then not commit to said claim later.
Again, how am I harming town in this game? You said that you could understand my lying about my role if the benefits outweigh the costs. They do for this game, so it was justified by your metric. If your goal is just to punish people who lie about their roles, then that’s not scum hunting, that’s just enforcing your preference.
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@Savant
If we 100% knew you were town, then yes. In this case it just seems suspicious. Any scum could come up with some excuse for lying later claiming it was helping the town. So if we buy this it sets a super bad precedent.
You’re calling me out for doing this because I could have done it later… sincerely, is anyone else reading this? You’re acknowledging that it’s no help to me now if I am scum. I said I was RB’d. I wouldn’t have moved and I still would have failed if I was just a normal BG. So my decision to state it now makes absolutely no sense if I’m scum. If it’s bad precedent to point that out, then I guess I’m setting it, because this is absurd.
If whieflame's not the only one insisting on this, then maybe there's a case to be made that the benefit outweighs the cost. I still think that the odds of luring a scum are outweighed by the confusion it causes though
What’s the cost to town? Please, explain this to me. I’ve laid out the benefit. What harm did I do to town?
Isn't this just a WIFOM argument
You’re not addressing it for some reason, but sure, it’s a bit WIFOM. I suppose it’s possible that I went out of my way as scum to both divulge the entirety of a role claim when I didn’t have to (I already claimed I was RB’d, so the result would have been the same) and specifically said there was nothing else that could explain why my role failed after two other people had claimed to be RB’d. I guess if you assume that I decided to put myself into the “pseudo-CC” pool (as you put it) for no apparent reason, then sure, it’s WIFOM. Either I did all this because I wanted to clarify my role for town to explain what could have happened and why, or I did it because I just decided I wanted to be scumread. Seems legit.
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@Best.Korea
I don’t mind being on the chopping block at this point because, frankly, my role failed and likely will continue to fail now that I’ve stated it. That being said, I don’t know why you’d start with me after I outed this claim. In what world does it make sense for me, as scum, to tell you that I know I was RB’d and not manipulated in any other way? You and Austin already saw that as a potential CC before I even posted. Why would I go out of my way to explain my role as a basis for why I could not be manipulated or prevented from using the BG in any other way? If you sincerely view that as scummy, then I’m at a loss.
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@Savant
How is lying about your role not anti-town? Otherwise, scum could just claim they lied about their role whenever they are counterclaimed.
I literally just explained that: the effect of the role was the same (I take the NK), but the means by which it is achieved are different, e.g. cannot have my target changed. In other words, no effect of lying on town, potentially strong effect on scum. So, again, explain to me how this decision was anti-town.
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@Savant
How is nullifying night actions not role-blocking?
When it’s done by any number of other means. Do you want me to start listing other roles that aren’t “Roleblocker” that could still result in a role failing? I can do it when I get home if that’s what you want.
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@Savant
…so, I’m confounded by this response. You’re saying that it would have been beneficial for town for me to give my actual role instead of biding out roles that manipulate my movement? In what world is that the best way to act as a member of town with this role? In what world does it make sense for me to actively give out information that only serves to help scum determine what does and doesn’t affect my night action? Please, explain how it wouldn’t have been anti-town as hell to give away that my role could only be stopped by RB?
Also… sincerely, I don’t get this “pseudo-CC” nonsense. I guess we’re all just assuming that there can’t possibly have been two means by which scum could nullify night actions, then? That’s a “pseudo-CC” now? I understand that it’s unlikely, but a pseudo-CC it is not.
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@Barney
@Best.Korea
So, two things before I explain what I did.
One, I think we shouldn’t jump to the conclusion that multiple people were roleblocked. Based on what BK said he was sent - that his action was unsuccessful (the same thing I received in my PM from Moozer) - we know that both of our efforts failed. Austin hasn’t framed it that way, but I’ll assume he received the same message. That could mean three RBs, but not necessarily. Austin’s role should only work on a living player. Earth died, so it didn’t work. Probably not an RB. I’m not sure what other actions could result in BK’s action being unsuccessful, but I know for a fact that I was RB’d.
And that leads me to two, my role is a bit different from what I claimed in DP1. I claimed BG in the hopes that scum would try to manipulate my role (e.g. redirect me). It’s not quite the same as a BG. The way it works, as Moozer has explained it to me, is by automatically redirecting the NK to me. I don’t move, I don’t pick a target. So that role can only be manipulated by RB, at least as far as I can tell based on my questions for Moozer.
So that leads me to believe there are likely two RBs that were used during the last NP, though it’s possible that BK’s role was otherwise manipulated to make it unsuccessful. If you’d prefer to lynch me to confirm all this, then I guess that’s going to happen because I’ve just revealed something that will necessarily make me the target of future RBs.
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@AustinL0926
That's odd... because I was also roleblocked last night. I guess I'll have to trust you in view of your role, but scum having multiple roleblockers would be very strange.
Did Moozer specifically say that you were roleblocked or did he say you were unsuccessful in using it? Because Earth died. You would be unsuccessful in delivering a message to him by virtue of the NK.
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@Barney
I didn’t visit anyone. My attempt to use my role was unsuccessful.
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@AustinL0926
My action was unsuccessful as well. This is starting to get ridiculous.
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Well, this was certainly one long DP1 to end in absolutely no lynch. So yeah, I'd say we misplayed here. I think the main issue was that we were relying on Luna to make the final decision, and Luna was relying on us to coalesce around a single lynch, which we never did. For what it's worth, I don't think Chris is scum, so it might be for the best since that was the only option that enough people were considering to get a lynch.
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@Best.Korea
I'd prefer not to follow a written set of instructions from this DP that scum can manipulate (nor should you or Earth, for that matter), but I will decide how I'm going to use my role to the best of my ability.
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@Best.Korea
As for what you just posted, I honestly don't understand the logic. I understand that there almost certainly are not 5 protective roles in the game. I understand that PoE puts me in the potential scum pool. I don't understand how PoE or anything Austin has said makes me scummy, and frankly, I don't think we can write off Austin as scum just because he has a role that allows him to send messages to others even after he confirms it. I also don't really know why you're writing off Barney at this point. Just because he's claimed a main character and stated that he can eventually confirm himself doesn't mean that he already has.
So, yeah, I'll VTL Savant since he's the only person I'm actively scumreading at this point. Doesn't seem like a lynch is happening anyway.
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Damn. 21 minutes? I completely lost track of time on this DP.
Don't think we're going to wrangle a lynch at this point and I doubt Luna will pop on before the end of the DP to unilaterally decide it. If people are around and want to make a call at this point, let's make it. Otherwise we let this lapse without a lynch and hope for the best.
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@Best.Korea
You have somewhat convinced me that whiteflame is a solid lynch. I am fine with lynching him or casey this dp. I dont think Joe can be scum, so two scums are most likely whiteflame and savant.
First off, you have nothing to lose by giving me a NP to use my role. If I fail, as I very well may even if I’m not RB’d, then kill me next DP. There are several other people here who are absolutely useless to town now that they’ve full claimed, but I guess if you want to reduce the number of targets scum has to manipulate this NP to get their NK off, be my guest.
Second, of all the plausible scum pairings, why would you pick me and Savant? I’ve actively scumread Savant over much of this DP even as everyone else has written him off as a lynch this DP. I have bussed my scum partner before, but I’ve never tried to start a wagon on my scum partner, especially when there was active disinterest in the pursuit.
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