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@AustinL0926
Yeah, that's why I called it sort of a SOP claim. For what it's worth, if anyone doesn't believe me and I scumread them back, then I would be happy to create a 1v1 where they hammer me (if they really don't believe me, they shouldn't have a problem with doing so).
We’ll cross that bridge if we come to it, though I don’t scumread your claim, even if it does come off as a bit convenient. Wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened to town.
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@Lunatic
Can everyone answer this:Is your character aligned with the Pandava's, or the Kaurava's or neither? Might be too obvious of a theme split but I don't see the harm in getting this information.
Mine also aligns with Pandava’s. That would make sense given the quote that Pie used at the start of the DP, since the battle in question pitted one against the other.
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@AustinL0926
supersaint. automaticly kill person who hammers me.
It’s hard not to see this as both a reason why you’re unlikely to be NK’d and as a means to push back on any potential lynches. It’s better that you mentioned it now, though, since it doesn’t come off as an excuse to shake off a wagon, so I see why you did it.
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@Vader
Alright, getting caught up on this.
Unvote
I’ve never seen the Victim before. You say that it redirects “a negative action” onto you from your target. Did you ask Pie what suffices as “negative”? I saw RB on the list, but also a killing action, which apparently doesn’t include the NK. Can you elaborate?
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@Moozer325
Offer still stands that if I get two more people on board I'll claim.
Not the biggest fan of a committed group claim. I'm hoping to get a couple of claims in this DP, but I'd like that to be driven by something other than just three people self-selecting to out themselves (you included). I'd greatly prefer getting more behavioral analysis through engagement more or, absent that, getting claims from those who are relatively inactive in case they largely take a backseat in future DPs.
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@JoeBob
This game is moving at the pace of a snail
Generally speaking, if you recognize that the game's slow, it's better to start engaging with people rather than just calling out how slow it is. Games speed up with more engagement.
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@Savant
My experience is that it’s not indicative of affiliation for him. That being said, being inactive is a good way to fly under the radar, so regardless of affiliation, his activity matters.
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@Vader
Alright, this lack of activity is starting to get a bit absurd given that we’re already over 24 hours into this DP.
VTL Vader
You’re the only one who hasn’t posted so far. Time to get involved.
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It's worth working with whatever information we're provided by Pie to whatever degree we're able, even if it only gives us hints on plausible characters and theme splits. He gave a verse from the Bhagavad Gita, which mainly features three characters by name: King Dhritarashtra, Sanjay and Pandu (though he's only asked after). In particular, the king seems to be a major character in the Mahabharata, so I wouldn't be surprised if he's in this game. Doesn't indicate a plausible theme split since the verse just covers the king's desire to know what is going on on the battlefield of Kurukshetra (it's going to be fun keeping up with misspellings of all these names). Maybe it is just as straightforward as one side vs. another on a given battlefield, and given that other major characters like Krishna and Yudhishthira were on the other side, there might be something to that.
Just some thoughts for now, don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole based on a single quote.
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@Barney
Zero meaningful activity, so a slight nudge to encourage the ball to get the ball rolling. Now we already have someone (me) being asked their motivation for an action.Plus, some inevitable but undeserved town cred.
Point taken. From everything I'm reading into The Mahabharata, there are plenty of characters in the text to draw from, so I suspect scum won't have trouble figuring out fake claims.
Also, surprised no one has mentioned it so far, but this part of the setup from Pie:
Mafia can ask if any two characters are in the game or not, and I will truthfully answer. Mafia can also ask if any two roles are in the game, and I will truthfully answer.
is also going to make it easier for scum to fake claim.
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@Barney
Oh my character claim is Shikhandi.Not that I think character claims are likely going to lead to any counter claims with this theme.
Any particular reason you chose to character claim this early?
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@Savant
Doesn’t happen very often from my experience.
It’s rare. I honestly can’t remember the last time it happened.
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I know next to nothing about the theme on this one - Indian texts are definitely not my forte - but I’ll be doing some reading during this game to try and address that deficit so I can at least be some help with theme analysis.
Also, my wife has a performance in less than an hour, so I won’t be on for a good portion of the evening.
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@ILikePie5
Lunatic did do that. He stated he was voluntarily roleblocked by a player and that the player was town. By the end it was obvious I was the person
…except that was more confusing than helpful. It made it sound initially like Luna was the one who confirmed you, then you later said you confirmed him, which meant you RB’d him and that… somehow confirmed him. How that series of events led you to townread him (and him you) was the missing element that I wanted filled, not the existence and confirmation of the RB.
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@ILikePie5
I guess. Honestly, I think waiting until you were revealed as innocent was a mistake, since it meant attention was split between you, Vader and Luna throughout much of DP2. At the very least, I think outing how the RB works would have helped explain why you were buddying each other from the start of the DP, which kept unnerving me.
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@ILikePie5
Thats true, but from a game perspective, getting your role hampered by town is very negative in the first place. Even if he did accept, he’s putting a significant amount of risk that scum can’t keep up with town actuons
Point taken, but given that the risk of refusal was being scumread, it seemed like he didn't have much of a choice in the matter.
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@ILikePie5
I mean it’s pretty towny to willingly be roleblocked. Still I gave the 10%. Gladiators are always town too so Lunatic would be the best option
I would've put the odds at 50-50 if I was in your shoes. Honestly, whether he was town or scum, he had every reason to accept the RB to have you townread him, especially since his partner could always carry out the NK regardless.
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In retrospect, I really wish I'd just gone for the Gladiator when I was convinced Luna was scum in DP2. I was really hoping to have it come in more clutch in DP3, but I should've known I was going to be the NK in NP2. At the very least, that would have forced the decision and put the spotlight on him, but I couldn't shake the doubt that something Pie had done had somehow town confirmed him, and since I couldn't get Pie to open up about it in DP2, I decided to wait.
Also, really wish Earth had been on to cast a vote at the end of DP2. We were so close.
Otherwise, it was an interesting game. I think with all the dual roles, it was a little swingy, and some of those pairings (especially the Flipped Tracker) were more than a little janky.
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@ILikePie5
Supa was GF so Framer, Lawyer, Tailor wasn’t even a question for me tbh. I wasn’t even thinking about that.He literally said your investigation couldn’t tampered with
...but Luna was a framer/lawyer. He was a JOAT and had both roles, so it was a factor whether you considered it or not.
As for tampering, I'm going to leave that one. It was confusing at best, conflicting at worst.
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@Lunatic
My sincere apologies about my behavior towards you dp2, obviously I don’t mean any of that. It was a last ditch effort to try and manipulate you. Honest did tell me he made a mistake by giving Barney the info that you didn’t move, and I really don’t know how to argue against that so I was pulling everything card out of the hat to try and dispute that. The Barney lynch was suppose to be an easy mis lynch but that complicated the hell out of it. So I got a little aggressive there to try and convince you to vote him. Hope you know I got nothing but respect for you.
After the fact, I figured that was the case, so I don't hold any ill will against you, dude.
Honestly, I was more frustrated that Earth hadn't posted a vote when given the opportunity. Hell, he was even online at the end of DP2, but didn't post a vote. We were that close to lynching you.
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@ILikePie5
The role was a little confounding, but I don't know if I'd call it bastard. Also, at that point, there was always the chance that your role would be manipulated by something, whether it was a Godfather, Framer, Lawyer or Tailor, so there was always room for error.
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@Moozer325
For what it's worth, I thought you did pretty well, a lot better than I did when I was starting out.
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@Lunatic
Excuse me for not bothering to read this post because it contained so much repeated bull shit that you've said over and over again to confirm your biases.
I’ll read this post eventually. Starting off by telling me that I’m full of shit is just the greatest choice If your goal is to convince me.
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@Barney
You should only be dropped down to MILO. So get one of them tomorrow, no matter the extensive lame excesses.
As the person who has been on this line a great deal of the DP, you don’t have to worry about me.
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Fine, fuck it. I’ve got dinner to make and I’m not going to keep checking into the DP to answer more questions and engage with all this more. I’m fine with bringing all this shit into DP3 if it means we can finally move on and get some answers. Still hate doing it, but at least it’s a lynch and, with roughly 5 minutes left, I can’t wait for Earth any longer. If I’m wrong about him and he flips scum, I’ll recalibrate next DP.
VTL Barney
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@Lunatic
When have you asked me any questions about my claim?WTF
So this game has been a big confirmation to something I already knew about you. You will board whatever train that satisfies your ego the hardest.
I stopped reading here. I’m tired of you just calling me out repeatedly for my ego, and I’m not going to engage with this shit. You want to believe it’s all about ego? Fine, whatever. If I’m wrong, you can call me out all you want in the Endgame.
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@Earth
@Barney
@Moozer325
I’d prefer that. He hasn’t responded to any of my questions regarding his claim and I honestly have no idea how he’s coming to so many conclusions about Pie. If we can’t get others on board for the lynch, though, it’s going to end up being Barney, so I’ve tagged everyone who doesn’t have a vote up. Better decide soon, we don’t have long.
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@Barney
@ILikePie5
@Moozer325
I’m caught up and this nonsense is giving me a headache.
Barney keeps talking about some claim that JoeBob had been confirmed guilty… I think by Pie, though I do not recall any such claim.
I do think it’s odd (and have expressed as much) that Pie has strong reason to believe Luna is town, but has also said that he has some means of proving himself next DP, but given the role setup this game, I can at least fathom some strange pairing of roles that cannot be used together or that would have been difficult to use together that could explain why Pie is doing this. It’s not a lot to go on, and I’d prefer that he just clarify his reason for townreading Luna and leave the full claim until next DP, but he seems adamant that he has to delay and if I don’t see a really good reason for that by DP, then he’s on the chopping block.
So… Moozer, I just can’t go with you on this lynch. He’s one of the few people who has claimed an absolute capacity to prove some very key elements of his role. I’ve got more reasons to pursue a lynch against Luna and Vader, neither of whom can confirm themselves and, depending on how each of them flips, could inform an easy decision next DP. Sincerely, Barney would be a better choice in my book for PoE at least.
We don’t have much longer in the DP. If we don’t make any progress toward a different lynch, I’m going to be hammering Barney at this stage.
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I’m headed into a movie soon, so I won’t be available for a little while.
For now, suffice it to say that I believe the argument that Barney would necessarily have obtained some information from Austin about why his role (whatever it is) failed, I just don’t know if I buy that Austin volunteered even more information, i.e. the kind of breakdown that would have included specifics on what other roles would fail that were largely distinct from his. If he had received that information, I don’t think he would have then failed to claim Motion Detector knowing that I would have townread that claim, nor would he have any reason to claim the attached RB. I still just don’t see it as the most plausible set of circumstances that could lead to this conclusion, and frankly, I don’t buy that he somehow intuited a lack of movement on my part. He would have had to receive that information from Austin.
So if he is scum, either Austin gave him just enough information to know that the RB failed, which makes me question why he would take the logical leap to saying that I hadn’t moved and then bank wholly on that leap for his claim, or Austin gave him way too much information and Barney, for reasons I cannot fathom, chose to only use a bit of it and give a claim that would inherently set off alarm bells to boot, given that it’s hard to see a town RB and think anything else.
I’ll vote later regardless and if he’s the only one we can execute a lynch on, then he’ll be my vote. He is still not my top choice, but we’re getting a lynch today, even if it is him.
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@Lunatic
I was seeking your claim at the time, as I explicitly stated. I was not, at that time, scumreading you. So, no, it was not the mere existence of an unconfirmable role that led me to sus you, believe it or not.
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@ILikePie5
The message you got from Austin wouldn’t have come if someone other than Earth visited you. If Barney is scum, which is likely, either he or his partner visited you
I wouldn’t call that confirmation, just odds on, but alright.
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@ILikePie5
The only thing that is confirmed is that Barney visited Whiteflame.
I mean… no? Did anyone confirm that? Earth visited me, Barney claims he did.
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@ILikePie5
What is stopping you both from voting Barney at this juncture?
Just… could you wait? I’ve been on here all morning and I’m still trying to process a good deal of information. If it gets near to the end of the DP and the votes are as they currently stand, unless I come to a very different conclusion than I am now, I’ll hammer.
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@Lunatic
Dude, I’m sincerely so tired of you mischaracterizing my argument that, at this point, I just want to drop it. None of what you’re saying here has been my position. I called out the issue with having so many confirmable roles earlier, and how that means not all of them can be town. I haven’t discounted behavior, either, but I do (and should) take results and actions into account. Just because you disagree with what I’m prioritizing in my reads doesn’t mean I’m dismissing large swaths of information, or expecting the game to solve itself, and sincerely, I resent that you think that’s my mindset.
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@Lunatic
I’m not going to get into the differences between how you posed it and how Pie did. It doesn’t make any difference at this point, so save it for the Endgame. I will, however, point out that I never said Barney was town confirmed. That was always your characterization of my position. The most I said is that I’m not voting him this DP because I townread him.
Also, this:
I’d like to remind you that neither me you or Barney are cinfirmable
is wrong. I’ve stated that I am confirmable, and not based on the Cop investigation. Just because I haven’t confirmed myself yet (neither has Pie), doesn’t mean I’m not confirmable.
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@Moozer325
I’ll vote for Vader, Luna, or pie if I know I have the enough votes behind me. I wouldn’t go for Barney, probably just because I think he has a pretty good claim, but change my mind by a means.
Alright. Right now, it's looking like the momentum is behind lynching Vader, so your wagon might be joined soon enough, though I'm considering it more deeply before pursuing it myself.
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@ILikePie5
I've been convinced for a little while that the scum team is either you and Luna, who claim to have largely confirmed each other, or Barney and Vader. PoE comes down to you four at the moment, with Moozer as a less likely outlier. So the flip should be informative regardless, particularly if Moozer uses his role.
I'll have a decision on this by the end of the day. I don't plan on letting the DP go by without a lynch, regardless.
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@ILikePie5
For now, I'm going to Unvote. I'd be willing to consider Vader as a lynch right now, so that's less of an issue. If I'm misunderstanding something about Barney, then Vader's flip and your claim would at least give me some basis for reducing my PoE. I don't think Barney is confirmed by any means, but I'd need that kind of information to give me more reason to push on him.
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@ILikePie5
I agree that that's at least a logical breakdown of how this could have gone down, so I appreciate your going through this carefully and analyzing the posts. I'm going to re-read this a little later and see if it makes sense to me then.
All that being said, I'm getting kind of frustrated by this side discussion about how you can confirm Luna without stating how you confirm him. You've stated this:
For now, I will state that based on everyone that’s claimed so far, Lunatic has to be town because of my role.
If that's the case, then I sincerely don't understand why you're holding back on claiming to establish that Luna is town. Maybe there's some other facet to your role that would allow you to confirm yourself as well and that hasn't been used yet, but it shouldn't prevent you from explaining how you are this certain that Luna it town based on the other aspect of your role. Luna keeps saying that he knows he was RB'd and that he can virtually confirm that the person who did it was town, strongly hinting it was you. Can you just confirm that?
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Also, at this point, I agree there are far too many informational roles for all of them to be real. We have:
JoeBob's Flipped Tracker
Earth's "chess engine" (i.e. 1X Cop)
Lunatic's catalogue of role tampering
Barney's Motion Detector
Vader's Even Night Voyeur
We know JoeBob's and Earth's are real. We don't know about the other three, but I have better reason to buy Barney's Motion Detector (he stated it outright earlier) than I do either Lunatic's unconfirmable role or Vader's largely unconfirmable role. Even if you don't agree with my view on Barney, at this point, scum is at least one of those three, if not two.
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@ILikePie5
I hate this claim. For one it overlaps with a claimed town. “Black pieces” include Pawn which Savant already claimed. Second the role itself is an even night Voyeur. This is really different from everything that’s been revealed. Every role has a weird mechanic attached to it. JoeBob was a flipped Tracker. Savant had 2 roles. Earth has a unique role. I have a unique role. Lunatic has a unique role. His is just even night voyeur. Third, he said he could confirm himself. How would a Voyeur be able to confirm themself if they mistarget or are conveniently interfered with. Furthermore, role confirmation is not equivalent to affiliation confirmation. My only concern is the fact that he soft claimed this in DP1 with the reason for voting JoeBob—if someone can point me to that, I may reconsider.
Yeah, Vader's claim set me off a little, too. It's not so much that other roles contain those pieces, though that's part of it. The fact that it's the only claimed role that has a use case of "Even Night" or "Odd Night" stands out. I already mentioned that his claim that he could confirm himself with this role doesn't make much sense - his result wouldn't be at all likely to confirm him. It's also not a dual role. Every other role that has been claimed or flipped so far (minus Luna's, though he might have a second role he just hasn't outed yet) has some other role attached to it.
I went back through DP1 and I didn't notice any softclaims from Vader that suggested Voyeur in DP1. Maybe I just missed it, though even that could just mean that he came up with a fake claim early.
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@Moozer325
Not really what I was hoping to see, since that's just creating a different wagon. Both Vader and Pie have claimed that they can confirm themselves next DP, and admittedly, it's going to be difficult for Vader to confirm himself with that claim (his reporting the Voyeur's results won't outright confirm his role or affiliation). What are your thoughts on this back-and-forth regarding Barney and Luna?
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@Moozer325
I can virtually guarantee that Pie isn’t going to be the lynch this DP, so having your vote on him is a waste. You should at least be reading through the last two pages and reconsidering where to place your vote.
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@Earth
You should really be weighing in here at some point, especially since you’re the most town-confirmed person in this game. You appeared to put PoE down to Luna and Vader a while ago. For me, it’s between Pie and Vader, but I’m scum reading Luna at this point.
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@Lunatic
No no no. My issue isn’t that the nod is doing something wrong, my issue is that your reading way too much in to nod psyche in order to create a perfect world for Barney being town to the point where your actively ignoring all the points against him in the hope that the mod gave you a free answer. That’s lazy, and not how I like to scum hunt first of all, and like I said, you are just looking way too hard into something the mod said anyway to crate a perfect world where Barney has to be town. I dont under your motive for doing this if town.
...So you're calling me out for reading into mod psych, but one of your two "variables" you provide ascribes not just a mod psych to Austin, but a specific decision on his part... I'm sorry, how am I supposed to read this? You would have to assume not just that Austin is ready and willing to respond to players, but that he'd provide information specific to PMs sent to other players on request.
Also, I'm really not sure why you're still on this. I haven't talked about mod psych in a while. In fact, in my last major post on this issue, I threw out mod pscyh entirely. At this point, the only elements I'm considering are those that involve a: what I knew, b: what I claimed I knew, and c: how Barney's role and action somehow include key details that I left out. It's awfully strange that you're calling me "lazy" when I detailed specifically how this played out. Meanwhile, your response is "well, he must have gotten it from Austin." How is that absolute shot in the dark not lazy? Hell, how is saying that Barney just somehow guessed the information I left out not lazy? Sincerely, this is some of the weakest logic I've seen from you in any game.
See this cherry picking of what you are willing to believe is kind of baffling for someone who doesn’t believe in luck or coincidences when they don’t match his confirmation biases.Your argument must be then that me and pie are scum buddies and came up with this elaborate plan way before knowing that Barney would claim roleblocker. Remember all this interaction was bread crumbed before Barney ever claimed. That’s some incredible luck right? Oh wait, you don’t believe in luck do you?
Cherry-picking... huh. Alright, I'm realizing I didn't get to your claim yesterday. So, let's talk about that.
So, if I recall, this post contains the entirety of your reason for believing that there's an RB in the game, one who is not Barney. If there's something else, please, let me know.
You've got a role of Mathematician. Setting aside that it's the first role we've had that designates a person as the role and just assuming that it's accurate, there are a bunch of things that don't make sense to me. You state that this is a passive role. You state that you receive a number of actions that are interfered with during the night in some way, shape or form. Fine.
You then say that you were "consensually roleblocked last night"... so you actively courted an RB last DP? Where? When? How would you know you were roleblocked when you've claimed a passive role? You say that "I am considered an active role," but I sincerely don't understand that. What part of your role is active? What part can be roleblocked? Did the roleblock result in your not receiving results during the last NP, or is there some other facet to your role that can be roleblocked, and if so, what is it? You then say that there are some unknown "circumstances regarding the roleblock" that suggest it was one specific person who used it. What circumstances? How does that confirm anyone? If there's good reason to believe that Pie is town, which you seem to be suggesting, then the fact that you've taken this long to explain it is just baffling. You seem to be asserting that you and Pie and confirm one another. So do it. Confirm yourselves. Stop beating around the bush with a weird claim and just out what happened and why you believe that confirms Pie. Telling me that you "bread crumbed" this interaction doesn't tell me jack shit because I still don't know what the interaction was. You could have just as easily planned to bread crumb as scum or as town, and claiming an RB role existed in the game before Barney isn't luck, it's just timing. Good or bad.
And yes, I am starting to read you and Pie as scum buddies at this point. Thanks for pointing that out.
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@Lunatic
I just find it funny that you ignore any variable that could mean barney is scum
I'm literally asking you to explain what variables you see that could explain these results, and your response is to rub in my face that I didn't think of them. Why?
So your answers come down to:
Like maybe him asking the mod how a role like yours would work and whether it would count as a visit. He could have gotten the same answer as you from the mod before claiming his result.
The mod could have offered up essential details of how a role he specifically defined works such that he effectively received the same information the person who used it got... then he sat on that information for much of the DP, only choosing to reveal it under great pressure later. I guess if we're assuming bastard modding to the extreme where everyone who asks receives a detailed set of information about how a role works...? You were so dismissive of the mod actively giving information that could solve the game, but now you're talking as though Austin's giving that information out to everyone who asks.
He could have been lucky in guessing that it didn't count as a visit.
That's an incredibly lucky guess considering he had no basis for making that call and none of what I said during the DP before that hinted that my using it didn't count as a visit. Almost any other choice would have been a far safer bet, but you want me to believe he just lucked into the perfect guess with the greatest degree of risk?
Your are dis-regarding him way too easily.
I'm not disregarding anything, that's why I'm making a big fucking deal out of this and asking you, specifically, what could explain it. So far, despite your claim that there are "a million ways barney could be scum," I'm not seeing a lot of explanations for this series of events.
What do you think about the two town roleblocker thing?
I'm still not clear that there are two RBs. Both you and Vader have mentioned this. The only explanation I've seen for why there must be someone other than Barney who has an RB is the somewhat confusing breakdown of the Mathematician role you mentioned before, and I'm not sure how much I buy of that to begin with.
Anyway, this is my last post for the night. I'll come back to this in the morning, but I still lack a good explanation for this series of events.
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