whiteflame

I appreciate that, thett. This community has meant a great deal to me over the years, even as members leave it. That we've endured tragedies like this at all, let alone more than once, is at once depressing and heartening. I've received support from people on DebateArt and those who left debate behind ages ago, and thankfully, I have lifelines in my life who can help me through this.

Many of you probably won't recognize this account. I had to dig back through The WayBack Machine to find his account, but I still remember my debate against Ajab and the discussions we had all those years ago. He's also one of only a handful of people that I stayed in contact with well after leaving DDO. We spoke with some regularity, despite the fact that he lived in Pakistan, half a world away.

Unfortunately, that ended early this morning when he died. I know his death hit me hard - he was in his mid-20's, and while that alone is a tragedy, he was also a person who had been through a lot in his life and persevered, someone who was thoughtful and passionate, loving and caring. I won't go into details about his death, but his family and friends will miss him dearly. For everyone who knew him or wishes they could have, we are all affected by this loss. Rest in peace.

Yeah, I called out the first one, though I probably should've sussed it more.

It was more the niche nature of the show that set me off. Vader might have lesser known shows like this that he both likes a lot and views as having one or more of his favorite characters, but it seemed impossible for this show to be among them. Also, you should definitely be careful about giving out named roles like that, especially after I say that I suspect That2 was Erza. Became pretty obvious. I know that was a desperation move, but it burned your partner.

I’m with you on that. It works as a way to make town second guess themselves a bit, but the silencing specifically didn’t swing me either way here. Maybe it worked for other people?

And hey, I actually called that scum would have “used” the silencer role on themselves to make them look townie. Didn’t know I nailed that.

It really was a good set of claims you crafted. I felt like all of them made sense, though I ended up thinking that Kamina would be the Motivator before he outed as Watcher. Sabo was a good choice for that. And yeah, I tunneled Austin a bit hard, focusing too much on responding to him. Still working on that balance.

Heh, glad it paid off. Admittedly, I would have scumread Crystal if he claimed, so I’m somewhat glad that didn’t happen. That being said, I really should have seen through Wylted earlier. You had him pegged, and my main problem was that I was second guessing myself on Wylted’s claim. Seemed ridiculous from the outset, but I was focused more on Austin’s claim and took me a bit to see them as a potential team.

No worries, I don’t take it personally. You would’ve had me going there, but once I figured out the theme split from Wylted’s flip, it made it impossible to see you as town. I know it’s tempting to pick another MC from the same anime to cover your tracks, since you don’t risk anything by claiming within the same anime, but even without much knowledge of claims in this game, I probably would have bit the bullet and tried something that Vader had mentioned in a previous thread. That would’ve thrown me. Soon as you said Monster and I didn’t see Johan, I had you pegged.

And yeah, as for digging yourself deeper, I suggest sticking to a story throughout. I can understand wanting to avoid claiming to get pigeonholed, but if you find something to say, stick with it. Admittedly, Wylted did you 0 favors by basically outing that That2 was Erza and she was a JOAT, so that possibility was burned. I’ve done the JOAT fake claim before and… yeah, it generally doesn’t work. 

Also, for anyone who is concerned about a mislynch, don’t be. If I’m wrong, then I’m the obvious lynch next DP. Either way, you will have eliminated 2 scum. Whether it’s his flip or mine, it will confirm the theme split, and you will have absolutely no problem determining who the last scum is. That being said, we’ll be at either 6-1 or 5-1, depending on if we stop the NK. We have nothing but time after this to determine who is scum between Crystal and Badger.

Yeah, I’m not doing this back and forth with you anymore. If it’s not obvious to everyone that you’re scum at this point, then they’re just not paying attention, so entertaining this little back and forth is just bonkers. If you were town and someone else did this, you’d VTL them immediately.

I will, however, note that I softclaimed my character in my very first post:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9992777-no-one-knows-what-the-future-holds-that-s-why-its#:~:text=“No%20one%20knows%20what%20the%20future%20holds.%20That’s,why%20its%20potential%20is%20infinite.”%20―%20Rintaro%20Okabe

So, yeah, the whole late claim thing doesn’t really work. You’ve been BSing harder and harder as the DP has gone on, and it’s just silly at this point. We’ve been going for more than 2 days in this DP - it’s not a rush job by any means, and you’ve more than justified it.

And yes, I’m aware that Badger claimed vanilla. I’d like to push him on that claim because, as I’ve already said, I don’t believe it.

Hey, figured you’d eventually do this. Was actually expecting you to claim Doc immediately, given that you chose a character who, at least early on in the series, was a doctor.

So fuck it, let’s have some fun. Straight CC. I’m the Doc.

I’m Okabe Rintarou, the protagonist of Steins;Gate (feel free to check Vader’s profile page, where he lists this, One Piece, FMA, Gurren Lagann and Code Geass as his favorites - they were all guaranteed to sport one player each in this game) a self-proclaimed mad scientist who repeatedly tries to save the life of his lab member Mayuri by sending his mind back in time. I used the Doc on myself and, because BK Motivated me, on my strongest townread, SirAnon, during NP1. I used it on SirAnon again since he claimed Watcher in NP2.

But honestly, no one needs that info at this stage. Austin’s “plan” is so absurd that anyone who had their doubts should be scumreading him at this point. Claiming pure Doc tells us that a) he now has no means to confirm himself, b) he deliberately led us on with a claim that he knew would only make him look scummier to… confuse scum? Seriously, wtf?, c) he doesn’t even tell us who he doc’d in NP1 or 2, so he’s not even willing to detail what he claims he did.

So, yes, for everyone who hasn’t voted to lynch him yet, there’s no question as to who deserves it this DP. Dude’s asking for it at this point. I don’t care if we have to wait for Crystal to claim or to get a role claim from Badger in DP4 (which we absolutely should get). Austin should be lynched now.

Sorry the pain's so bad. Good to get your Watcher result and, depending on how Austin responds to you, hopefully you'll be able to post a VTL as well.

Not that I think this is necessary now, but let's cover this list of "frustrations":

Both of which are extremely convenient, as I mentioned earlier. You would have had reason to claim Cop in DP2, at least initially, to prevent the lynch on Wylted, something you couldn't do since you were silenced. So now, that role provides no confirmation. The use of the Doc also provides no confirmation since SirAnon wasn't the target of the NK. So you might as well have written that you are the Compulsive Visitor who visited 2 random people for all this matters.

I didn't press on this earlier because I thought it was just that absurd, but let's talk about your plan. Your plan is to get a claim from Crystal, which will somehow provide evidence that you are town. No clue how you make that connection. Seriously, not at all. If Crystal is the silencer as Earth's result suggests (still possible that someone else visited Pie and this is all just coincidental, but I'll assume it for now), that doesn't make him automatic scum nor does it indicate what you are.

As for the rest of this plan... seriously, wtf. If you are breadcrumbing your Vig shot, you're giving scum a chance to stop it, which renders your one means of confirming yourself obsolete. As I indicated above, someone who is town and is playing this knowing that they need to get out from under a likely lynch would use a clearly confirmable role on their likeliest choice for scum. You had 2 opportunities to do that. You didn't take advantage of either one. Not sure why you think we'd give you another chance when you're saying you'll telegraph your target, and especially when you're saying that you'll also simultaneously use your "tracker shot," which no, SirAnon cannot verify. Again, he's the Watcher. He would have to watch whoever your tracked target goes to, which again, means telegraphing your targets and giving scum a chance to intercept. With a redirector on town, we can assume that scum has quite a few ways to fuck with results, as they already did with your purported Cop usage. So, even if we assume this is your role and you're town, why do you think we should trust your result?

Yeah, throw it on the pile of reasons to VTL Austin. Dude's scummy as all hell.

For that matter, I'd also like to see your reads. I understand that you redirected Crystal and that you'd like to find out about his role (presumably because you're sussing him), but there are almost certainly 2 scum left in this game. Who else do you think is scum?

Alright, then please explain to me what makes you believe his role claim, especially given what I said here. He’s also claiming that Vader made some bad role justifications. Do you think yours is bad? Anyone else’s? Honestly, if I’m missing something, I would sincerely like to know.

Yep, here goes the last ditch effort. Out of curiosity, is anyone buying this?

SirAnon’s role and justification both make sense (haven’t seen any sussing of him since he claimed his character), don’t know what you’re talking about. In fact, all the ones I’ve seen so far do. Blaming the mod is an interesting choice, though. 

Oh, and just to be clear, I’m fine pushing on Crystal after we remove you, even if she’s not my biggest scum read beyond you at the moment. In due time.

Far as I’m concerned, this response amounts to “I was nervous to use it and didn’t care enough about confirming myself, so I used two other abilities that definitely would not confirm me two NPs in a row despite being actively sussed.” I don’t know how you got to the end of DP2 with no scumreads, especially considering how hard you were apparently sussing me the whole time, but hey, you keep justifying a clearly very strange choice.

I’d respond to all this (a lot of which is just you doing your damnedest to twist what I said to being something it isn’t) but… seriously, just try to defend that ridiculous role claim. I’ll get popcorn.

Seriously, he’s guilty as sin. That role claim gave him away completely. I know I still want to learn crystal’s character, but I am willing to wait. This is an obvious lynch.

A mafia and scum JOAT can be balanced, and Vader has done it before, so that’s not the issue. Everything I stated above, on the other hand..,

There are multiple reasons why I don’t buy that claim.

First, Wylted spoiled that Erza was a JOAT. Remember in DP2 when he gave a list of 3 “rainbow guards”? Those are 3 of Erza’s attacks/abilities - long story short, Erza is known for equipping a variety of armors and weapons - that are all likely 1X use roles that That2 could have used. What’s more, Vader already confirmed that he sees Erza as a JOAT in the Fairy Tail Mafia game where he gave her 2 of the same ability names (might be differently balanced here). Never heard of a game with 2 town JOATs.

Second, if you were the JOAT, your continued unwillingness to say what your full JOAT role is is absolutely baffling. JOATs almost universally have 3 or more roles, like Erza did. Austin doesn’t say what his third role is… until he suddenly claims Vig is the third role. Feel free to look back at that previous game with Erza - two of her 1X roles were Cop and Vig, which just so happen to be the two overlapping named roles Wylted stated. Wow. What are the odds?!

Third, Austin claims he copped Wylted in NP1. Notably, he doesn’t say his result (which, for those paying attention, would have been innocent given that he was the Godfather). Very convenient that the one semi-confirmable role he had is now impossible to confirm because he just happened to be silenced during DP2. Seems tailor-made to be convenient. So is the Vig role, which is confirmable, but he… just hasn’t used it yet. Yep, after getting repeatedly sussed over the last 2 DPs, he’s avoided using the one role that could confirm him both NPs. Very convenient.

I’ve got another reason as well, but honestly, this should be enough. If it’s necessary, I’ll reveal it, but I’d prefer to keep that one under my hat for now.

Yup. Figured it was either you or Crystal. Makes sense with your character.

Best to do so if you can, though be aware that the DP may end earlier than you’re expecting. You haven’t been the target of sussing yet, but confirming you are town makes things easier.

A bit of flavor that works with the character. Lelouche’s Geass can only work once on a person, so yeah, that fits.

I think he’s clearly scum. I want Crystal’s claim, too, but I don’t think layering on VTLs will make it faster. We should expect a full claim from him whenever he’s next online.

Seriously dude, just paraphrase. It’s not hard.

Alright, that’s one of the characters I deliberately left off my list. Redirector is an interesting choice for him.

If he has a confirmable role, he should have already claimed and demonstrated that it was confirmable. If he says it’s confirmable now, I almost certainly won’t buy it - it would mean he has deliberately dragged out any discussion of his guilt unnecessarily.

Alright. Who is your character?

All I’ll say for now is that I have strong suspicions as to what That2’s role was. If scum want to risk fake claiming it, have at it.

Yes, I’m scumreading you chiefly based on your character claim. I don’t think you would be given a character from Monster if it wasn’t Johan, so I anticipated that someone might claim a character from Monster that wasn’t Johan, which would give them an easy opportunity to make a safe fake claim of a different character from the same anime. So when you ask what I was expecting you to do… you did it.

You talk about concrete evidence as though there is any in this game. I didn’t have concrete evidence when I voted against Wylted, though he eventually gave it to me. If you’re only basing decisions on something concrete, you’re not playing mafia very well. And this whole business of you, as scum, using a fake claim is a red herring and you know it. It’s literally WIFOM thinking - what move would I make that would best benefit scum if scum has a fake claim, which is just a weak “what if” scenario. Yes, I get it, you gamed this out so that you’d know the perfect play that you would make as scum and this isn’t it. That still assumes that scum has a fake claim, that it’s a decent fake claim, and that one of the other players on the scum team hasn’t taken it. Not everything is WIFOM thinking, but this absolutely is.

Now you’re just lying. Yes, you did TR Badger and yes, you did include your thoughts about his claim in the reasoning for doing so:

Wouldn’t say that post implicates him either way. He seems to be a stubborn player from what I’ve seen in this and the previous game. I think scum would make a case for his reasoning, but I null read the behavior.

Beginning to think that you might actually be distracted as you say because some of these responses don’t really engage with what I’m saying.

That “gut read” is from DP1, before I ever VTLd you. The reasoning is in DP2, which I pointed out already.

I still think it’s strange that you simultaneously didn’t have time to give any details for your reasoning regarding other players, but had plenty to detail your thoughts on me. I’m not calling you out for not having time - I’m calling you out for how you chose to use the time you did have.

Not having much knowledge of anime didn’t prevent you from townreading Badger over his claim, and if you had other reasons for doing so, you’re not being forthcoming about them.

I didn’t request that you claim in DP2. You had already claimed your character - why would I seek a soft claim from you then? I said I wanted more soft claims in DP2, not that I wanted yours.

Your reason for VTLing Wylted late still doesn’t make sense. The opportunity was available to you to VTL him anytime during DP1. You’re simultaneously sussing me for hopping late on the lynch while giving yourself a pass for a toothless vote past the end of DP1 because you just needed to inform us? Please.

We don’t know if scum has a fake claim, and even if they do, there is likely only one since Wylted clearly didn’t use it. So dismissing my response as “I wouldn’t do this as scum because I’d just use a fake claim” is BS logic and more WIFOM thinking.

We do know that scum is very likely to be all villains. We know that there are a small subset of anime where the villains are the most generally beloved characters. Monster is one of those series. You claimed a character from Monster that isn’t the villain. I admit, that understanding comes from my knowledge of the anime, which is biased by general trends among fans, and my attempt to understand Vader’s choices in character selection, most of which I have been spot on about (called Erza, Roy Mustang, and Kamina so far). It’s possible that Vader is a big fan of the MC of Monster and doesn’t care as much for the villain. I think that’s a far less likely option based on what I know of him. You can call that unreasonable, but it seems like a pretty self-explanatory way of narrowing down what is and isn’t a fake claim in this game. Supa clearly likes charismatic villains a la Aizen. Johan is a well-known and well-loved charismatic villain.

So, yes, despite your protestations, I’m pushing to get your full claim. VTL Austin.

I am absolutely willing to pursue a full claim from Austin, including justification. I’d like character claims from both Crystal and Earth this DP as well.

Pie, who is your preference for a lynch this DP? I’m guessing Austin based on your vote/unvote, but please do it again if you confirm that.

Suffice it to say that I’ve got multiple problems with these posts, including how you’ve chosen to sus me.

First, I don’t see any responses in any of the reasons I sussed you in the previous DP. For all you say that I was trying to silence you, I had legitimate reasons for sussing both your claim and your behavior, and I’m not the only one who has expressed those. Interesting, then, that your decision was to give a wall of text containing reads instead of addressing any of that.

Second, the reads themselves are just baffling. You spent half of the post focused entirely on me and give exceptionally short shrift to anyone else. That’s particularly interesting for someone who doesn’t was forcibly silenced all of the last DP. I understand not having time now to write everything up, but you clearly had time over that DP to write up a great deal on me and little for anyone else. You also got several details wrong and omitted quite a bit. SirAnon isn’t a tracker - he’s a watcher. Not sure why you’d find it weird that Pie hasn’t been NK’d when he’s a non-PR. Not sure why you find badger’s claim believable, why you’re townreading him at all, or why you’re saying that he hasn’t contributed much (he’s got plenty of posts in this game). And that’s the sole analysis of anyone’s character claims to boot, entirely excluding BK’s claim despite him being in the null, possibly scum, pile. Also, no, there are not 4 scum in this game (that would be absolutely unbalanced), so I’m not sure why you’re still suggesting it’s a possibility.

Third, your reasons for sussing me just seem to be throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks. Seeing a lot of WIFOM thinking, both of me and of scum. I had Wylted on my scum list early in DP2, and I straight up said early on that I wanted more soft claims before pursuing a lynch. Switching early would have been the sus choice after making that clear. Hell, you did it yourself in DP1, posting a vote against Wylted way after the point where it could have been meaningful, as if to buy town cred off of a poor claim. The only somewhat valid issue is my response to his being silenced. Despite being pretty experienced, this is my first time being exposed to any silencing role like this. And no, I didn’t just sus you for that choice. Ignoring the other reasons you’re being sussed to focus on this one is deflecting. You’ve claimed a character from Monster, an anime with a villain (Johan) that is widely loved in the anime community, similarly to Aizen from Bleach and another villain that I haven’t mentioned yet. The likely reason for your claim is to avoid any potential CC’s by stepping out from your anime. 

Also, now that I’ve seen that Pie’s been silenced, we at least have confirmation that there’s a silencer. I’ll note that that confirmation does not demonstrate that the user is scum, nor does the choice to target any given user serve as confirmation of their alignment. Even if we assume that the silencer role is a scum role, I could see scum using it as a way to make themselves look more townie while losing basically nothing.

We have a character claim from Austin as well, but yes, character claims from Earth and Crystal are required.

I’m considering it. Right now I’m putting you in the slightly scummy pile, but that’s where I already had you. Austin looks scummier.

I mean, Onizuka would be a ballsy fake claim, I’ll give it that. Don’t know if the show is his cup of tea. What I like less about your claim is that you gave “drama” as your genre. It’s definitely got genre elements, but it’s clearly a sports anime. Calling it a “drama” seems like a really opportune way to avoid being pigeonholed into a given series.

Alright, so Nagi from Blue Lock. Odd choice, don’t even know if Vader is watching ongoing series. Not what I would have expected from a sports anime from him, either. Love the series, personally.

I sincerely doubt that Wylted went and dredged up the previous role for Erza Scarlet to bolster his fake claim. It’s much more likely that he used That2’s claim to support his own already, as he did by claiming that he could confirm his role by giving me 3 options as to what could appear in my PM. It wasn’t a smart use of it because a) it was obvious that it was a different character, and b) I wouldn’t have gotten any of those ability names in a PM if they had been used on me.

I think the simpler explanation is that Wylted was pushed to soft claim and then character claim in DP1 before he got that info, which meant he couldn’t use it. As for why he didn’t give one of his partners the opportunity to do so, I can chalk that up to three reasons, though I don’t think he considered most of them:

1) I had correctly determined who That2 was, so it would have been an obvious fake out.

2) Vader had previously used the role as written in a Fairy Tail mafia game, so it would have been sussed.

3) We had already locked in soft claims from most people by then, so there was limited wiggle room for only a few people (it’s part of the reason I’m not sussing Crystal or Earth much - they would have taken the claim and didn’t have any soft claims up to that point).

It’s all good.

You didn’t get killed or removed from the game, right?

Figured you were probably a character from One Piece, a bit surprised by the choice. Going to put that in the null pile.

Wait… wtf happened to Earth?