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@Savant
Ok, maybe I'm just not getting this. Couldn't you say this about any claim if you were on the chopping block? "You're lynching me right now, so obviously I would never expect to get away with this claim." How is this not WIFOM, or saying that we should never lynch anyone who gives a suspicious claim? Obviously scum is never going to say "I would give this claim as scum."
That’s not what I said at all. I said that the reasoning you and others are using for lynching me have focused in part (or in some cases to a large extent) on me making an absolutely idiotic decision to claim the way I did as scum. The point isn’t that people shouldn’t lynch sus claims, it’s that I’m shocked so many people are buying into any of these narratives regarding what led me to do this. How many times have you or others repeated that you’ve been sussing me because I might have used a fake claim offered by Luna, only to basically discard the fact that I would have access to such a claim and believe that I’ve discarded it to claim something Luna himself effectively CC’d to everyone? I sincerely cannot imagine what mentality I’d have to be in to ignore the trivia rewards (or somehow bank on them supporting me) and just wing it with my own claim.
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@Savant
1. Your lynch gives us useful information about banana.2. You agreeing to go along with the plan to confirm Austin.3. Others I trust want to target you, and I'd rather coordinate with them than risk lynching outside my PoE
If this was the only reasoning you or anyone else presented for targeting me, I’d be fine with it. It’s the arguments about how I thought I could get away with this claim as scum that baffle me, and I’ve noticed you’re joining into them at this point. So they hardly seem alone.
If you have any additional reads on Mharman or banana's behavior, I will definitely take them seriously, especially if you flip innocent. Just because I think you are the best person for Austin to target doesn't mean I'm discounting the possibility that you are town, and if you are, any comments you have today on PoE (including the ones you've already given) will be helpful for town.
I gave my reads already. I scumread Mharman. I townread Banana, especially given my result. I don’t have any other scumreads currently. Given that DP has mostly been focused on Banana and me, and everyone seems relatively agreed on the reasoning for it, nothing has meaningfully changed.
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@ILikePie5
What is your defense to my belief that your role and character are right. Just that the 3 specific roles are scum roles?
I’ve said it multiple times, but let’s roll this back.
The theory then is that, after seeing that these three exact roles were being given to town via these trivia events (not sure I can call the second one that, but still), and just decided that, despite having an available role and character claim from Luna and full claim from Casey, I’d just go for it with the obvious mod-confirmed CC on the table.
I’ve claimed my own role before as scum, I’m not denying that. I am baffled that anyone would think I would look at the game up to that point, see that all three of the roles I had were already on the table, and just YOLO and claim them anyway. I had time to work this out, unlike last game, and I had alternate fake claims, also unlike last game. But according to this explanation, one or more of them was either unusable for some reason or I just threw it away in favor of what was arguably the dumbest townie role claim I could have made.
And all that is aside from the fact that, if I had scum versions of these roles, I would still have to be damn near certain that no one had these roles, something that was still entirely plausible with these rewards on the table.
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@Savant
If he's town, I don't totally understand why he hasn't tried to move the lynch to someone else in PoE (I think if he'd put in more effort, he might have convinced us) but I guess it can get kind of draining if it feels like you're getting scum read no matter what.
Just landed. I don’t see what’s hard to understand here. Every defense of myself has been scumread. Explaining ad nauseum why it would be ridiculous for me to make this claim as scummy has become an exercise that reminds me of nothing so much as Whack-A-Mole, where people (yourself included) keep moving from “it’s your actual claim” to “it’s just a bad fake role claim” to “it’s your fake role claim,” all of which I’ve pointed out are absurd for a variety of reasons. Every attempt I’ve made to explain my reads and put pressure elsewhere, even when I wasn’t the focus of everyone’s attention back in DP1, was sussed. I get that because I would have sussed someone who kept trying to push attention off of themselves.
So I sincerely don’t know what you or anyone else wanted from me aside from not throwing my hands up in exasperation yesterday. If there was a way out of this, I’d sincerely love to know what it looked like because I can’t see it.
Instead, I’ll take the L and use it to accomplish something. For you and everyone else who sees me as obvious scum, I’ll be really interested to see how you respond to all this next DP. For now, though, I’m good just getting this one over with.
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@AustinL0926
I think Whiteflame's plan makes sense, not sure what it means for his alignment. Could be town genuinely trying to be helpful, could also be scum thinking that taking a 50-50 to live to another day is a better shot than trying to survive today.
I mean, think what you want at this point. I don’t see another way your role gets used without you falling on your sword yourself or having a really solid scumread. I’m accepting that no case I make is enough to avoid a lynch and I would rather make the most of a bad situation by at least confirming you.
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@Savant
Oh, and everyone say the three you're voting for (with Mikal as #1, obv), so we can keep 2 and 3 as different as possible to avoid letting scum mess up the vote.
Layover (all good so far), so I’ll post my order:
Mikal
Pie
Austin
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To be absolutely clear: I will be on a flight much of the rest of the day, so if this becomes the plan, executing on it may have to wait until either late tonight or tomorrow.
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If the alternative is just to die by lynch, I’m fine just submitting a terrible answer to the survey and falling on that sword to confirm Austin’s role. Might as well give town something more from my death. Of course, that depends on everyone’s willingness to trust me, though I’d be the obvious lynch if I survive somehow.
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@Mikal
At this point, Mikal, we're just doing a WIFOM dance. If you think I'd do all this, whatever. I've made my case that this would be a dumb as hell move for me to make as scum, and I still believe that whether I actually have these roles, whether one of them is a fake role I received, or whether I just made it up. The logic is all confounding as hell and especially so given how much time and information I would have had to prep for my claim.
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@Savant
That's fine enough. I've already admitted there are reasons to sus me. I don't really get why Luna would give me a fake role claim that would also happen to be among the three roles he's giving out for trivia rewards this game, seems like that would be pretty bastard and I would be unlikely to just plunge ahead with claiming them after seeing them all show up, but here we are. I fully recognize that I'm in PoE and that I'm the likely lynch regardless.
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@Mharman
Not claiming that I've been good at this, but as you noted, I was pushed into claiming early in that game. I'll note I didn't have access to any fake claims that game, either. This time, I would have had plenty.
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@Mikal
Honestly, this is just a baffling conversation, dude. If you scumread me for my behavior and want to validate what I did, that's enough. You can pursue my lynch for those reasons alone. This is just me being utterly lost on how you think I could fuck this up so royally given all the time and information I had available to me. If that's your takeaway, that I did all this as you've described it, then I would count this as the worst single strategy choice I've ever made as scum mafia and I've had others where I've outed myself in DP1. This would legitimately be the dumbest unforced error I've ever committed, and it wouldn't even be close.
But I'm not going to argue it anymore right now. I've got a flight that's going to dominate my afternoon and evening and plenty to take care of in the meantime.
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@Mharman
Well for starters he’s not arguing that Wylted used a fake claim that was given. He’s arguing Wylted didn’t use either fake claim.
I addressed that. Given that, if I was scum, I'd have a free and clear fake role claim on the table, I find it hard to understand why I wouldn't have used that.
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@Mikal
What no….. I’m saying as scum you just watched her claim she went to savant and claimed a role to match that. I hope I’m making more sense than this to others. If not I really need to evaluate how I am saying things.
So then I claimed I used my role in a way that would lead Banana to looking more townread so that... what? I would be townread for it? I'll give you this much, that makes more sense, I just think it's a baffling way to give myself any kind of towncred while simultaneously taking pressure off of someone who was being sussed.
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@Mharman
Whiteflame, you are misunderstanding a few of Mikal’s arguments.
Explain what I'm missing then because I don't get it.
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@Mikal
No im not saying that last part as all and it’s probably because I’m on my phoneI’m saying I do think wylted used anythingSo I think it’s plausible the character claim is you or earth and you are more likely. I think you could be a JOAT as scum to balance the items that are all over the game and twisted the JOAT to match the fake character claim
So WyIted didn't use anything. I, as scum, have access to a fake role and character claim as well as a full claim from Casey. I choose not to go with Casey's claim. Rather than choose the obvious opportunity to just claim the role and select from dozens of unclaimed game shows, I take the character claim. I then decide that, since Luna has given me scum investigative roles, I'm going to utterly ignore the fact that he's handing out common town variants of those roles and just claim all three because... why? Sincerely, I'd love to hear what kind of reasoning someone would have for doing this as scum. It's just the most baffling choice one could make with all this information on the table and it still seems like really dumb strategy to me.
If there is a role claim, it’s very hard to tell if it’s been used or not.
We know there is a role claim. That's not a question. And if you, like me, do not believe that Miller was that claim, then I as scum would have had easy access to it. My partner would have easy access to Casey's full claim with justification, so they wouldn't have any need for it, and you're saying that I would have discarded the opportunity to claim that for... Wheel of Fortune, I guess.
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@Mikal
If you are saying you would not claim that because it’s cced by the mod himself are you saying Luna js lying or bad at game design if that is your actual role?
...what? I'm saying this would be an absurd claim for me to give if I was scum, period. That's it. No reflection on Luna. The fact that the roles I have are also in the game as rewards for answering trivia doesn't make them a full CC of my role anymore than any mod perks do, but it does mean I would be stupid as fuck to fake claim them as my role since it would mean I literally stole from the mod to compose my claim.
Why would he balance a game that way after saying both teams are not that powerful (I’m going off this from memory. I don’t remember seeing it but I remember someone saying it. Correct me if I’m wrong). He’s giving items, you have items, I have an item, other people could have items. Mafia would have to have somrthing to counter that.
...I don't get this either. Why is this a problem? I have to be on every lynch and every lynch has to be a scum lynch for me to access my role. That's a severe restriction since any mislynch means I don't get access to it at all. And yes, scum can have counters to my role too. What's your point?
JOAT makes sense if it’s a scum role to counter some of the items. What I’m saying is you could possibly be claiming your actual role and used the fake character claim. Saying that hasn’t been used is even more wild. Everyone has claimed lol and wylted claimed a bunch of stupid shit. I think it’s likely you or earth that used it and it makes more sense with you
All this implies the following:
You believe that scum have already used their fake role claim, meaning you think scum were given the fake role claim of Miller, which for some reason WyIted twisted into an off-night Miller.
You believe I then used the fake character claim of Wheel of Fortune and claimed town variants of scum investigative roles that I actually have and that directly matched what Luna was giving out.
You believe I used one of those scum investigative roles to find out that Banana did what she said she did and confirmed she visited Savant for... towncred I guess?
Honestly, I'd have trouble buying any of these as true, but the second one in particular takes the cake. Even if I have scum variants of these roles, the notion that I'd just go full speed ahead into claiming that those are my roles with the same roles being given out during the DP is just absurd dude. This would legitimately be the dumbest thing I've ever done as scum and I've done some stupid shit before. If you want to see my flip to prove it to yourself, be my guest.
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@Mikal
didn’t he also say the game is unpowered overall?
I keep re-reading this and not being able to understand that last sentence fragment because I don't know what you mean by "unpowered overall." I think it's significantly more likely that scum haven't used a fake role claim at this point - there is no way in hell that Luna gave them Miller as a fake role claim.
Even absent that, though, I'm frustrated that you think I'd do something this obviously ridiculous. Again, this is your logic:
I never softed my roles beyond stating that I didn't have automatic access to them and that there was reason to wait. So that means I entered into this DP locked into absolutely none of these three roles, but I chose to claim them anyway after already seeing that Luna was giving out each of the three over this and the previous DP. Blatantly just copy these claims verbatim and present them to you. I then decided to claim I targeted Banana of all people, someone who has been on most everyone's sus list, and state that my role at least partially confirms her night action.
Again, I entirely get if you're sussing me behaviorally. I entirely get if you're seeking my lynch for confirmation of Banana for utility. That's all fine and if that's sufficient for you to lynch me, fine. I get it. I just find it absurd, and I'll point this out in the endgame too, that you think I'd do something this lazy and obvious as scum. Claiming my own role and passing off as town is one thing, but putting out a claim that is CC'd in any way by the mod himself? That would be a new level of abject stupidity.
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@Mikal
The initial ima vote myself and rageThen backtracking on it after he was called outHe has a cop on top of other cops that were given (I have a reason to be sus of this. I have an item)And he saw Ana visit you. So if he is town, you didn’t die, and you didn’t have something interfere with your action , it verifies her
Fair enough on the frustration and verification.
However, I'm going to point out that it's kind of ridiculous that you believe I'd just copy-paste the exact same roles Luna is giving out through his trivia and claim them all as my fake role. I may not be good at fake claiming, but that's would be a level of outright slap-dash laziness that I'm honestly surprised you think I'd be willing to engage in, especially since, as scum, I would at least have access to a fake role claim (it's pretty clear WyIted didn't use their fake role claim and just banked on us accepting a Miller because Luna was giving out a 1X Cop) and a full real claim from the Janitored Casey.
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Alright, so first off, I apologize for my exasperation earlier. I wasn't in the best frame of mind. I think I'm likely to get lynched anyway, but I won't join it. That will be up to all of you to execute.
If really believe that I'd look at the prizes from this and the previous DP, all of which could easily have been CC'd by several players who had not yet claimed, copy-paste them into a Wheel of Fortune setup I softed all the way back at the start of the last DP, and just claim it straight up, then clearly I'm worse at fake claiming than I thought. I do a shit job at fake claims, but I don't just steal ideas from the mod's setup and repurpose them like this. You can prove that to yourselves if you wish, I'd just prefer you give me the opportunity to give you more information to go off of when you do. If it's about getting that information before scum have the opportunity to use that Politician, then I guess I get it, even if I'd prefer we aim for scum rather than just being fine with the trade-off if I'm town.
As for the reads I promised, here are the basics:
I still think Mikal and Savant are town. Nothing's really changed from my reads last DP, even though I've been frustrated.
I'd say Moozer is pretty solid at this point as well. Assuming for a second (I don't believe this to be the case) that Earth is faking receiving his Cop role and is just hanging onto the 1X Politician, he still has no incentive to tie himself so closely to his remaining partner by faking an innocent result. Much as I think it's valid to test his Popular claim, I can't see much reason to believe he'd be scum.
Banana is likely town. Maybe she's faking what she did, but if something different did happen as a result of her night action, Savant hasn't said anything about it. It's not a guarantee, but it's evidence from where I'm sitting that she's likely telling the truth about her role, which makes her town.
Austin's role claim makes it pretty likely he's town, even if it's not a guarantee. It might have to be proven at some point and it's not necessarily town aligned even if it is, but behaviorally, Austin's been consistent with his town play.
Pie's been more of a behavioral read throughout and he still is. I'd say he's been a townread for most of the game, even if some of his takes on Moozer and Earth earlier in the DP are hard to follow.
Earth remains a bit of an uncertainty for me. Clearing another player reduces PoE, but it also might be a tactic to gain towncred. That being said, the more I've thought about it, the more likely the Soldier claim is real. I just don't buy that Earth would go with something like that as scum. He's my slightest townread.
Mharman remains my only scumread. I wish I could say I have a trio worked out with WyIted, but I don't. I regret not targeting him during the last NP, but what was putting me off of it was his sus on WyIted, which started relatively early. Nonetheless, I've just seen him a lot more frustrated and less forthcoming this game, and I could absolutely see a world where he and WyIted were putting some distance between each other in DP1. That kind of thing has fooled me before.
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@Mikal
I don’t think town whiteflame Is a bitch and vtls himself. Also a JOAT with him giving out cops and watchers. Don’t buy it
So even full claiming just makes me look scummier. Lovely.
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@Savant
Because I’m tired and every effort I’ve given has been thrown back in my face as though I’ve got some massive subterfuge going that makes everything I’m saying scummy. You have those very defenses all listed as scumreads. Even my attempts to call out someone else get read as efforts to push attention off myself, by you no less, so what you’re suggesting isn’t going to move the needle. I can’t further explain my role or improve my standing meaningfully, and even someone who townread me pretty solidly last DP (Mikal) has turned on me since my claim. So maybe the best contribution I can provide is confirmation. That’s all I can think to do.
I’ve given plenty of reasons to support a lynch on Mharman since last DP. None of his claims change that substantially, I still think he should be the lynch, and I don’t see anyone giving a strong reason why not.
As for Banana, it would be pretty ridiculous for me to argue that she should be the lynch after I Tracked her correctly. I was concerned about her. I’m much less so now, and apparently it’s a pretty common desire to want that information confirmed more broadly.
As for anyone else, I have thoughts, but even I don’t feel strongly enough about them to make the case that they should take precedence.
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If enough people want my lynch just to verify my Tracker role, then I’ll be among the first to VTL me and just hope you guys can handle the rest. FWIW, because it doesn’t seem to matter anyway, the other two slots are 1X Watcher and 1X Cop, so I have access to the very same roles we did (or could have) won over these first two DPs. Shame to let them go to waste, but apparently I’m the only one who cares about that and I’d prefer to just get it over with if this is where things are heading.
Just give me some time to shower and post my reads.
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@ILikePie5
What are the exact justifications yall were provided. Paraphrase to the best of abilities your PM
There really isn’t much to paraphrase. Wheel of Fortune started airing in 1975, it’s about solving word puzzles, successful completion thereof resulting in the spin of a wheel and a random prize. Nothing specific to the three roles on the wheel, just the wheel itself.
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@Mikal
Wf may be a utility lynch
Given that I have two other roles I’d like to use before then, I’d very much prefer not to be lynched before I get that chance, but if this confirmation of my result on Banana is so valuable that it’s worth the loss, then I’ll eat it and let you guys get on with it. I’m not fond of that reasoning because I don’t think it significantly reduces PoE (I can only confirm who Banana visited, not what she did) and I think at minimum I have value as an NK target, but that’s not my choice.
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I’m going to read back through this DP when I get home, it’s too much to read through accurately on my phone.
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@Mikal
I missed the random part. That’s why I was asking. Again if I misrepresent anything correct me. After I get back from the Gym I’m going to have to really look at all this and make time for it. To much going on.
That's fine. I'm going to be headed out again soon anyway.
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@Mikal
Forgive me if you’ve said this. I think I read where you said you could have got a cop. Why not take a cop?Sorry this do is 300 posts and it just went up. On my phone and struggling.
A) I never said I had a Cop.
B) It's random. I did not get a choice in which role on the wheel I received.
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@Mikal
I also just had time to scroll back. I don’t love white flame said he confirmed what Ana said she did
I targeted Banana because, after going back through the entire DP, I realized I couldn't cleanly place her in either camp. A large part of the reason for that was just reading through some of your later posts on her, so she probably wouldn't even have been my target without your input. I could only choose the target, not the result of the action. I get that you scumread Banana and I chose her for that very reason.
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@Savant
I mean, you could have given any action today, you didn't have to plan ahead on that. You could have said you got a 1x cop and found someone was innocent. In this case, it was convenient to claim tracker.
So… convenience of the claim makes it scummy? I’m sincerely trying to understand this read, dude, because all I’m seeing is a list of possible ways I might have claimed this as scum, all of which are just spitballing with a number of built in assumptions about a fake role claim, a prepped restriction way ahead of time, and using it at this exact moment just to townread the actions of another player already under the spotlight. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely that all this just happened to coalesce into a moment just so I could… confirm the actions of other player in PoE? I guess. Doesn't seem like it accomplishes much for me and puts me in a situation where I could easily be CC’d and disproven by other roles, but I guess it’s possible I masterminded all this just to gain some nonexistent towncred.
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@ILikePie5
What is your role actually called?
Literally Wheel Spinner.
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@Mikal
Whiteflame needs to claim. Do not let him get out because he said last dp he could claim and verify something today
I’m on my phone, but I did dude. Look back.
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@Savant
Ok, but if lack of guaranteed access was part of the role description for the fake claim, maybe you softed that. Or maybe you planned to add that detail to the role and hence softed your lack of guranteed access.
Whole lot of WIFOM and this one’s getting specific, since I would have had to plan this early last DP and choose to give this role as my action after seeing it as something town could get this DP. Not something I can ever imagine doing as scum, but that’s just me.
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@Savant
That's any game where scum could potentially kill the investigative role the first night. Which is a lot of them. Also my role could probably be classified as investigative, though I really don't feel I have to share more than that
I disagree that those circumstances are all that similar, especially since it’s rarely a single investigative role, but whatever. It doesn’t sound like what you have is a CC, but if you do, we can cross that bridge whenever you’re willing. I’ve stated my results. They are what they are.
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@Savant
No? I think Luna would give the full role and you would soft claim it.
Dude, I’m saying I softclaimed my lack of guaranteed access to the role. I never softed the role itself. That’s why I’m confused here because that’s the only thing I could have been given and softed.
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@Savant
Your soft claim could very well be the reason WyIted didn't use the fake claim. Also it's not the only investigative role if you count the 1x cop or 1x watcher/tracker, nor is it investigative every night.
So you think that Luna would give a softclaim of how a role works like this, something that clearly stands out, to scum as part of their fake role claim? I think that’s baffling, but sure, fine.
It is the only investigative role town has that cannot just be commandeered if scum manages trivia better. I can’t fathom Luna creating a game that’s so swingy it effectively offers scum an opportunity never to be investigated, but sure, whatever.
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@Savant
Hmm...this could be the fake claim. Tracking banana to me proves nothing since WF could be scum and know banana is innocent. Pretty convenient that WF happened to track someone who just said who they visited. Also still allows a lynch on banana, and if banana flips innocent, WF might be hoping for town cred because they "told the truth" about banana and it's our fault for lynching ana anyway.I'd say most suspicious is Mharman but after that WF is probably the best lynch.
Stuck in traffic.
So, just to clarify: only claimed investigative role = likely scum? No word on my softclaim either about how my role works, which has been on the table for a good while now.
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Now I’ve got to drive back to work and finish what needs doing. I’ll hop on and fully catch up when I’m done.
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Alright, I’ll claim first:
I’m Wheel of Fortune. I hinted that I didn’t have automatic access to my role. That’s because I need to be on the lynch of a mafia member to have access. What happens when I do: Luna spins a wheel, I get access to one of three roles that then disappears from the wheel on the next go-around.
I was on WyIted’s lynch. I got the 1X Tracker. After some deliberation between Earth, Banana and Mharman, I chose Banana. I can confirm: she visited Savant. So when Banana says:
I am Fear Factor, since the show is about facing fears I am the Brave Townie. I can target a person each night, if that person is scum I am immune to the night kill that night. Last night I was going to target mikal, but changed my mind to savant last minute after having some doubts about his motivations in lynching earth that I couldn't get out of my head.
She is at least telling the truth about who she targeted. I’m not aware that the role automatically visits its target, but it seems so.
For now, unless someone has a really good reason to seek it, I’m not stating the other roles on the wheel.
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Alright, I was clearly not on for the timing of this (seriously guys, 20 minutes? I had to drive my wife across town when you notified me).
Give me a second to catch up and I’ll claim.
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@ILikePie5
Did everyone submit a role name last DP?
I did. Fucked it up because I didn't think Sensor was a day time role.
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@Savant
I actually think with some town coordination it might not have been a problem (i.e. we don't place official votes until lynch is decided).
Well, now we'll never know how that would have gone... actually sounds like it could have been interesting.
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I don’t have a lot of time atm, but a couple of things off the jump:
Glad WyIted didn’t get to use that role. That would have made things frustrating.
Looks like Casey got Janitored, so we should expect that scum have a good fake claim available to them.
I’m down for Savant’s strategy and pretty good with those three names, but I’ll give it some thought.
I saw that Earth claims he got the Cop and used it on Moozer. Sounds plausible.
I’ll come back later and give more insights, just have to start somewhere before I get busy again this afternoon.
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@Lunatic
Yep, that's hammer. Want to close this out before I go to bed.
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@Mharman
so actually it just points to you exclusively
Guess we'll see next DP.
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@Mharman
but if it is fake (ie Wylted guilty) keep in mind it indicates scum likely used their fake role claim already... which could point to Whiteflame or Moozer cause they both hinted their role
Don't really get how this hints at us, but fine, we'll cross that bridge next DP.
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@WyIted
If you are town and claiming an odd variant than why does the fact this is an odd variant bother you?
Look back through my posts. Where do I mention the odd variant? It's odd that your Miller role would somehow only be active half the DPs, but that's not among the problems I keep coming back to.
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@Savant
It's a 1x cop though. Is a miller really needed to balance that? And why would town be punished with that role for solving the trivia challenge correctly?
Yeah, I have no idea. It doesn't make sense. My vote stays.
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