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@drlebronski
doing pretty good right now!
Glad to hear it! What's good?
Also, I see that you've got your vote on me. Was that for activity or do you have some other reason to VTL me?
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@drlebronski
just gonna role claim now since i basically dont have a roleim vanilla town member and can only contribute with my voice and vote
Vanilla is honestly not the kind of claim you want to make at the start of DP1. There are claims that affect town deeply and should be mentioned here, but Vanillas generally want to keep themselves hidden as much as possible and provide some distraction from potential power roles. Essentially, at this stage, it would have been best to keep this secret.
That being said, please, do not give your character claim. Scum can choose between any number of comedians, but we do want to avoid giving them indications of who they shouldn't choose. It wouldn't be the first time scum got CC'd for choosing a character who was already in the game as town.
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I'm going to act like I have all the answers in this game. Fake it until you make it, right?
Also, I've gotta watch more standup. It's been a hot second since the last one.
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@oromagi
I don’t disagree that Pie focused on Disc, just that the purpose of doing so was to achieve a lynch. I’ll note that Disc was never all that close to getting lynched.
Kind of flattered that you think this is my scum play. Honestly don’t think I’ve done that great of a job as scum in the past.
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Pretty sure I hammered and Poly’s simply not on to verify. Don’t think any of us have roles that would otherwise prevent an end to the DP.
But, since we’re still posting after the DP should have ended, I’ll address what Oro said.
Pushing a lynch that was never going to happen and would be instantaneously seen as scummy after Pie flipped seems like a Pie move to me. He doubled and tripled down on the bussing, knowing that it would result in either a NL from the split vote or a lynch on Pie, which would validate Disc. Simply posting all the instances that showed he sussed Disc doesn’t make Disc confirmed town. Moreover, if we’re talking about energy, Pie focused much more of his effort being defensive about his role and engaging heavily with Luna in DP1. Pie was rather exhaustive with his posting and sussed me as well during DP2.
As for lynching you, Oro, I’m clearly not pursuing that. If anything, I’m clearly townreading you at this stage.
Besides all that, Oro didn’t respond to a single thing I said above when I got a chance to post. The no lynch will clearly reduce the potential scum pool. Earth, if that leads you to vote me should we still be alive, so be it, but you didn’t lose anything by backing the VTNL. Oro doesn’t address any of my points about what makes Disc sus, many of which mirror his reasoning for sussing Pie, and provides no new reasons for sussing me. He’s had it wrong numerous times in this game, and he wants to ignore the input of Wylted and Evil, both of whom were town and sussed Disc.
Scum will definitely leave me alive; I’m an easy target for the lynch in the next DP. And I’m sure I’ll be lynched, regardless of the case I’ve made. Still, I’m doing my best to ensure a town win. Take it or leave it.
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Well, I wanted to hear from Oro on this, but he’s been on a few times and hasn’t responded. Hopefully we’ll hear from him in the next DP.
VTNL
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@oromagi
I feel like the issues here are relatively obvious, especially given the connection between the characters of Mewtwo and Giovanni that Evil initially mentioned in the last DP. But I'd also say that you shouldn't just take my word for it. There may only be four of us left alive, but we have the reads of dead townies as well, and Luna's read in DP1 was right on the money with Pie. Wylted made the call on Disc during the last DP, and he was conveniently removed during the NP afterward.
However, if you are uncertain, the NL still makes nothing but sense to me.
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@Earth
But as far as I’m concerned, the NL should be a no brainer. No matter how convinced you are that someone is scum, taking an extra DP to get better POE at basically no cost should be obvious. I don’t think you should lynch Disc now.
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@Earth
Just about to board my flight back home, actually. Was just writing out thoughts.
A part of me assumes Disc is town. Pie was trying really hard to lynch Disc and I doubt he'd gain much town cred for it.
It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen Pie bus his partner just to get attention off of himself, and if it makes you townread Disc, then it served a dual purpose. Also, note that Wylted was pushing this lynch after he was town confirmed.
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That’s all I’ve got. It’s been a long day, and I can’t say I understand the impulse to end this quickly, even if you do both feel strongly about lynching me. I can’t say I understand some of these double standards, either. If minimal interaction is enough, then Disc barely interacted directly with Pie during DP1. If delaying Pie’s lynch is enough, then maybe consider who wasn’t even on it.
The lynch on Evil was misguided, but if you want to barrel ahead with me, I can’t stop you.
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Third, I think there are entirely valid reasons to sus Disc at this point, and the relative absence of that analysis from Oro’s posts is surprising to say the least, given how thorough he normally is.
He says he susses Mewtwo over the Narrator, but doesn’t explain why, even going so far as to say that the early claim somewhat vindicates Disc because it’s a “bad claim”. I disagree that it’s a bad claim. Clearly, both Supa and Luna believed it given rather extensive knowledge of the series on the basis that he’s the main character of the first movie. It’s a good claim, but it should stand out. Not only is Mewtwo not in the show, but he’s a creation of Giovanni, Pie’s own character. Evil himself pointed this out in the last DP.
But it’s not just the character claim. Part of the reason I sussed Pie was because the role fit the character too well. Look at Wylted’s flip. Oro, look at your own justification. We’ve got some decently obvious ones like Officer Jenny and Nurse Joy, but the rest are clearly weak or even nonexistent fits between character and role. Yet somehow Mewtwo stands out from that, just like Charizard did.
Behaviorally as well, he stands out. He sussed Pie but didn’t vote for him in DP2, instead choosing to focus attention on Evil when that was an obvious dead end. He had hours to get on and hammer after Supa’s vote. If my unvoting and then hammering somehow gives me away, I don’t see how Disc gets away with being entirely in absentia during a critical time like that.
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Second, the apparent bases for sussing me just don’t make a lot of sense. Aside from Oro having a problem with there being a third Vanilla in this game (not really sure why that stretches incredulity, since, as I pointed out two DPs ago, we have 6 people who were functionally vanilla in this game), he has sussed me over hopping off the lynch to get Supa’s input (I’ll note that Oro himself relied on Supa’s input and mine for his vote against Pie) before coming back on to hammer. If I was scum, given Disc’s absence from the DP, I could have simply let the likely NL proceed. Sorry that my flight inconvenienced you on the timing there, I would otherwise have done it sooner. Finally, Oro says I never actively scum hunted. I disagree. I’ve been providing pretty extensive analysis during the first two DPs. The only DP I did not actively participate in was DP3, the one where all 3 of you decided to lynch Evil in a rather short timeframe that, given my trip, didn’t allow for much activity on my part.
Disc does far less work. My agreement with Pie in DP1 clearly didn’t last in the following DP, since each of us actively sussed the other, and despite everything, I still believe the mass claim was a mistake. I don’t think we’d be at this point, where one mislynch could end the game, if we’d played this more normally.
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Great, I’m finally off of work and I can get involved in this.
First off and most importantly, I think it’s absurd that we’re discussing a lynch here. A mislynch ends the game. We have nothing to lose by going to another DP and could potentially gain important POE. Disc responds with this:
Everyone agrees on earth being town, meaning we all already know what DP 5 would look like if we VTNL'd (you me and Oro)
I don’t know how Disc comes to this conclusion as obvious. Earth was basically confirmed town from the moment he claimed Nurse Joy, and after Luna flipped, any and all uncertainties should have fallen away. I said as much during DP2. Scum would have recognized that as well, but kept him alive anyway. Besides that, if this did happen, then Oro and Disc could end the game with a lynch on me during the next DP. Nothing lost.
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Guys, I am seriously slammed at work right now and won’t be able to respond to this for another few hours.
Also, why the hell aren’t we just VTNLing? It’s 3-1.
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…Alright, I’m finally available again and the DP is over. Well, here’s hoping it’s Evilgenius, but I think what we’ve seen is probably just noob behavior. Rushing this seems a bit hasty.
Lots I wanted to mention, but since this is going to end soon, just a few things:
Wylted, I guess you were DP3 Innocent Child? You said DP4 originally.
I do still think that Disc’s absence from the lynch on Pie is striking, especially considering that he was the other potential lynch.
Earth, I’m guessing you’ll be RB’d every DP, since you’re the only known PR left in play.
I’ll try to be on for the next DP (hopefully it will be a little longer), but I’ll be busy tomorrow morning for this work trip. Should be able to hop on later.
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Just got into beautiful (…I think… it’s dark out) Charlottesville! Huzzah! Now to drive an hour to Harrisonburg…
Alright, so we know that at least one of the villains of the series is scum. Got thoughts on that, but can’t do much to write them out in the short time before I get the rental car.
This lynch is moving rather fast and I’d like to take a second to get some information. Earth, who did you target?
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Taking off on the second leg of my flight. Guessing the above response is a good sign.
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@Vader
I’m honestly not all that big into minor differences in balance and trying to figure out what the mod would do, particularly knowing that there was an Enabler to weaken one of those PRs. That being said, I agree that the Bomb clearly doesn’t fit in with the other roles. If he’s the Bomb, then that’s not the worst thing to lose, and I’m not seeing enough reason to go for Disc at this point, though I will note that his absence from the lynch (when he is the only other viable choice) is stark.
VTL Pie
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@Earth
So is stating that he wouldn’t choose Voltorb because he’s too unknown of a character, as I said he might. So is stating that Voltorb makes more sense for the role on the basis that it explodes, making Charizard a more obvious fake claim, as you have argued. We’re all considering what played into the decision and determining whether Poly would have built this into the game or Pie’s using it as a fake claim.
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@Wylted
Can you elaborate? I’ve had gut feelings lead me right, but they tend to come from somewhere applicable, even if it’s not clear. I’m going to be in flight for the next hour or so, but I’ll be scrolling back through this DP and the last to see whether I still prefer Pie.
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@Earth
…What Pie said. I have no idea what you’re referencing.
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@Wylted
The Disc lynch is still on the table. I’d like to see someone other than Pie and Evil support it, but I’ve been on Pie because I feel the reasoning there is slightly stronger. Asked you a bit ago why you voted Disc, would appreciate an answer.
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@ILikePie5
Like I said to Earth, Voltorb would be an obvious fake claim. They’re all interchangeable within the series, have no personality, and aren’t one of the Pokémon any of the leads has. Charizard is much more likely to be in the game, but could still be fake.
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@Vader
I want to hear your full reasoning before we potentially hammer Pie. Not liking the reasoning from Earth, though I think Oro makes good points.
Unvote
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@Earth
I guess I can see a PGO working, but that would be even scummier to me, especially given how that would affect the balance in this game. Seems much less likely that Poly would specifically pick out a Pokémon like Voltorb that barely shows up in the series to represent one of only two Pokémon in the game, so better potential fits aside, this is one of the tighter-fitting roles in this game.
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@Earth
So then your reasoning is that the role doesn’t fit the character? If anything, I’m put off by how well the Charizard role fits the character. Why do you think it’s a poor fit?
And what makes you think Pie is buddying you? You both have seemed more antagonistic than most anyone in these DPs.
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@Earth
@Vader
Alright, we’ve got a clear split in the votes, and I still feel pretty torn myself. Earth and Supa, lay out your reasons for VTLing Pie, I’ve already explained mine.
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@Evilgenius
This isn’t good reasoning, Evil. It’s good reason for being frustrated, but it’s not going to recruit anyone to VTL Disc. At least with Pie, he’s giving me some utility-based reasons to vote, though that doesn’t really tell me why Disc is more likely to be scum (looks a bit like weak bussing to me). It’s not at all unusual for someone to sus another player on the basis that they are largely absent from the game. Hell, we did it last game and landed on scum (Poly) partially as a result of his inactivity. Anyone can come up with any excuse for not being around. We can’t verify it. You may have been absent for perfectly good reasons, and even if you we’re, the VTL functions as a way to push you to increase your activity. It didn’t start a substantial wagon so you weren’t in danger of actually being lynched, either.
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@Evilgenius
My justification is that im a worthy opponent to Ash but i rarely make an appearance during the indigo league
Alright, that’s a better explanation than I expected, makes more sense than Oro’s or Wylted’s.
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@Wylted
What makes you think Disc over Pie? Still deciding between the two myself.
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At this point, I think we have enough information to make some clear calls.
I agree with Evil that there was likely at least one scum on the lynch in the last DP. Sussing me and Disc is appropriate, as is townreading Earth for reasons I stated earlier, but I don't understand why he's dismissing Oro and Pie from his scum watch pile. They seem like odd exclusions to me, and I'm not sure what logic he's using to narrow the scum pool down to two. I'd also like to see some analysis from him with regards to who he thinks are a scum team, rather than just analyzing these players as individuals. In general, though I'm still having trouble reading whether this behavior is scummy or just newbie, the OMGUS response to Disc stands out.
But we shouldn't just be focused on votes from the last DP. As I mentioned earlier, have 3 Vanilla claims, a DP4 Innocent Child and a Miller, all of which are functionally Vanilla at the moment. With the Enabler dead, we actually had another functional Vanilla with negative utility. That's 6 functional Vanillas up to DP4. I think that should stand out to everyone at the moment, even if we're under the assumption that there's a Mafia Goon in play. We've encountered scum with limited roles before (see the Fire Emblem mafia game), but they didn't include an RB and town didn't have two negative utility roles to boot. It's practically certain that at least one scum is hiding amongst this group of 5 surviving functional Vanillas. That doesn't mean that we should write off Pie, given that his claim is still a standout, but the limited utility of town does leave me less clear about a Pie lynch than I was earlier.
And it's not just the role claims. Wylted and Oro have justifications that barely link up with their roles. I suspect Evil will join this crowd, though he has so far refused to give his justification despite multiple attempts to get it. Luna and Earth have obvious ones that didn't require explanation. Supa, Pie, Disc, Bron, and I have roles that range from fitting to decent matches. Poor or strange justifications shouldn't automatically lead us to sus someone, and I have actively sussed someone for having too perfect of a fit between role and character before (ended up being right during the FMA:B game), but I think it's worth considering these groups. I'd say it's most likely that both scum are in either the first group or the last.
I'm currently most sus of Pie and Disc. I still think their Pokémon claims stand out too much to ignore. If Evil remains intransigent when it comes to providing his claim, then I'll have to change my vote and reconsider a possible Oro/Evil pair. But for now, I'm sussing Pie just a bit more than I am Disc. I think that both his role and claim stand out as odd enough to set them apart, and given that we know there was a Cop, I think there's at least more reason to believe there is a Miller than that there is a Bomb.
VTL Pie
We do still have time in the DP and I want us to use it, but for now, I think Pie is the best pick.
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@oromagi
Huh, weak as well. I still lean toward lynching Pie this DP, but the discrepancies among justifications apparently come in groups.
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@oromagi
You’ve asked for justifications from us, but where’s yours?
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@oromagi
Paraphrasing: as the voice behind the show, you introduce the characters and their adventures without participating
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@Wylted
My justification is that I am popular and help a lot of people. I know it doesn't make sense, but that is the paraphrased justification
…Yup, have to agree, that’s a bit odd. Sounds like a justification for the Popular.
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As for the other claims, considering how well the others have fit their roles, I’m pretty surprised by these recent ones.
Misty being Vanilla kind of works, given that she’s viewed as pretty basic by some of the fan base, but I can think of at least a couple of weaker PRs that could have fit her better.
Gary being Vanilla is stranger. He’s known for being an ass and for being Ash’s rival. I don’t see how you would characterize him as Vanilla except to say that his strategy of lording over others is nothing special.
More surprising is Brock. An Innocent Child the man is not. He’s a womanizer in the series, and though I suppose he can be childish, I wouldn’t say that he stands out for that. I’d particularly like to hear what the justification was for this (though also for Gary and Misty) because it just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.
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Is it just me, or does town seem dramatically underpowered this game?
3 Vanillas
1 DP4 Innocent Child
1 Odd/Even Bomb
1 Cop
1 Tracker whose role was tied to 1 Enabler
1 Doctor
1 Miller
Even knowing that there are two fakes in here, we have two roles (one confirmed) that only serve to undercut other roles. 3 active PRs, a late stage Innocent Child and an uncertain Bomb are all we have. Scum must be pretty limited as well, though that’s certainly not unheard of.
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@oromagi
Well, frustrating as this is going to be given the last few claims, I am vanilla. Actually thought that was relatively obvious given that my role is not dynamic or interesting.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Also magnemite and magnetron.I forgot about Koffing though, good point. Wasn't that James's main Pokémon? Hmmm... with pie complaining that no main characters fit bomb better than Charizard. Interesting.
Ah yes, forgot about those two.
Was honestly just thinking of other ball-esque Pokemon and remembered that Koffing and Weezing could be a pain in the ass. That is an interesting point, though I've never seen a scum Bomb. Never seen this variation of the Enabler, either.
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@Vader
1. It justifies the fact why he wouldn't die in the NP2. It is OP as hell for town to have a role preventing NP actions3. There's no way to prove he isn't lying if we see someone visit him now that my tracker doesn't work
I'm not certain how Poly would balance this game, since this is his first time doing it, but some of these look a little off to me. I agree that the first is true (in that he likely wouldn't be the target of the NK and this would be a decent excuse). On the second, the bomb is responsive to the NK, not all night actions. It makes sense from where I'm sitting as a response to the Strongman, if only to make Mafia think twice about their targets. The third is basically true of everyone here who cannot independently verify their roles.
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Busy day, but I have a free moment to give some thoughts.
To start, I do think it's odd that Charizard is the one with explosion, especially when there are Pokémon that actively learn the move in the games (Voltorb was already mentioned, its evolutionary form Electrode, Koffing and Weezing come to mind). If we're looking at those, though, Koffing/Weezing is James's Pokémon (he's in Team Rocket) and Voltorb/Electrode are incredibly minor - I don't recall them being used by any of the central cast at any time. So it's not particularly strange that those weren't chosen for this role.
What makes it stand out to me is actually what gives the role some standing - the fact that it's either odd or even night. Charizard is prone to refusing to fight when he feels like it, though that changes when he's faced with an opponent he's interested in fighting (say, Magmar). And given the fact that he's a fire type, the bomb isn't too far off the mark. It's not a perfect fit, but that odd/even facet stands out to me when compared with the Mewtwo claim. Assuming that that one is real, him being the Miller only makes sense based on his attitude shifting within the series. I'd expect Charizard's role to represent his attitude as well, and I don't think Pie would know enough about Charizard to make this kind of claim up himself. Maybe he has a scum partner who helped him figure it out, but this makes it more difficult for me to dismiss the character claim as just being based on a search for the most popular Pokémon. Either he's thought it out more than that, or Poly came up with a pretty solid role for the character. I can't say I'm on either side of that fence right now, but it is making me question whether my initial read on his character claim is correct.
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@Wylted
I misinterpreted his his initial accusation of pie.Still voting there, but that hammer was suspect because he seemed to be backsliding on the hammer, before he even did it
Ah, I misunderstood, thought that was directed at me.
It's fine if that's where you want to vote, just letting you know that it'll be a hot second before I join any lynches in this DP. While I agree with you that his behavior at the end of the last DP was a bit off, that's not enough reason for me to suspect him at the moment, given what we know.
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@Earth
Like I said in my initial post, I feel it matters that you asked the question. It makes me townread you. Maybe I'm wrong in that assumption about how you would behave as scum, but it wasn't meant as an insult, it was meant as analysis.
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@Earth
That's what I said. A failure to execute the Doc is a result of an RB. A failure of the used Doc to protect Luna is a result of a Strongman. I also said that, if you were in a chat with scum, you likely would have posed that question in private. That's my supposition about how you would behave if you were scum.
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@Earth
Seriously, are you guys trolling? I swear sometimes you intentionally misinterpret what I say.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you said was that you were unsure if the "your action failed" response you received from Poly was the result of a failure to actually execute the Doc or a failure of the used Doc to protect Luna. I thought I interpreted that correctly.
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@Earth
@Wylted
I'm fine with lynching Pie, though he has a point. We have 3 days. We just lost 2 investigative PRs. We can lynch him at any time, but this is not the time to be rushing through the DP.
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