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@Wylted
This will help my read on you. Is that a soft claim?
There have been several soft claims in this DP, though I'd rather not point them out specifically to make the job of scum easier.
In general, though, I don't understand why you're sussing me. I strongly disagreed with your logic and felt that it was worth addressing it to the fullest because it was the only strong sussing going on in the game at the time. People should really know by now that my scum play tends to look suspiciously passive. Luna certainly knew that, that's why he was going to Cop me in the last game well before anyone else had any strong suspicions about me. Also, if my goal was to change things up as scum, why would I mention doing so immediately at the start of the DP? My play is usually quite reserved in general, especially in DP1, so yes, I'm stepping a bit out of my comfort zone and trying something different. You've been doing the same by trying to change how you're presenting your suspicions to better recruit people to lynches.
If GP wants to lynch me over nothing (and I mean nothing - I responded sarcastically to his first couple of posts because they weren't contributing to any discussion), then so be it, but if I was scum, then drawing attention to myself by responding to you over and over again wouldn't be my play. I sure as hell wouldn't feel the need to defend Poly over two people being on the lynch when no one else showed signs of joining.
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@Greyparrot
Well, now that I've got actual blood sugar back, I'm picking up what you're putting down.
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@Greyparrot
It's a weird age. They're like, 'Amy, I'm pregnant.' And I still don't know whether to be like, 'Congratulations,' or 'Do you need a ride?'
...Alright then. Thanks for sharing.
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@Speedrace
@drlebronski
Also, since Speed did contribute, unvote, though I'll also note that the lack of a character claim from GP in that initial posts seems to depart from his meta (forgot to mention that earlier).
VTL Bron
Especially given your decision to claim without pressure, I'd like to know your reads in this game so far. I'd also just generally like to get you more involved in this DP, since you've fallen silent after acknowledging that you shouldn't have claimed.
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@Wylted
unvote vtl whiteflameI think we know how this dp will end
Considering that the only two votes on me are GP and you, and considering that your reasoning has amounted to "WF is doing something different than usual" in response to a slew of posts from you where you are also doing something different, I'm not interested in responding to this. If others want to push me to claim, then I'll claim. If not, then I suspect I know how this DP will end as well: in a NL. Limited activity tends to yield those.
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@Speedrace
7. Wylted - Town; y'all forget that he always plays EXACTLY like this, and he always randomly goes after someone for a garbage reason; he's also drawing far too much attention to be scum in my opinion
I wouldn't go so far as to say "EXACTLY like this" - he definitely has displayed a very similar behavior with regards to why he susses particular individuals, but I've never seen him go anywhere near this far to justify his view. Maybe my experience with him has just been too limited, but he actually produced a Google Doc for the purpose. It also wouldn't be the first time I've seen him draw attention in a way too obvious manner as scum.
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@Polyglot
He tends to be rather minimal in his participation, though even by his normal standards, this seems muted. I see little difference between him in this game and players like Speed who have just gone silent.
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@Greyparrot
Mind explaining any of your reads? I’ll take any analysis over this minimalist behavior.
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@Wylted
whiteflame would withdraw that bluff if I got to L1
I took my vote off of you to encourage discussion, but should it happen that a wagon forms on you, I don’t think you should count on my vote being a bluff.
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@Speedrace
Given that Evilgenius has posted, I'm most interested in getting others who have been quiet more involved.
I don't suspect that pushing on GP will go anywhere, though I think the fact that his contributions amount to claiming Vanilla (knowing that it was anti-town to do so) and VTLing Poly with no reasoning, I think the lack of meaningful contributions from him is glaring, if not unusual for him. I'd especially like to know why his normal meta of full claiming in DP1 appears to have shifted to just a role claim.
All that being said, the lack of activity from Speed is more obvious. He's only posted a few times, with the most analysis coming from his responses to Pie. I'd like to see more from him before we get much further in the DP.
Unvote
VTL Speed
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@Wylted
You were pretty transparent there as well, which is why I pmed him that it was extremely obvious you were the last scum, right after I was NKed. I won't exain why I knew that with 100% certainty, in case you are scum and make the same mistake here, but it was obvious from my angle, and given lunatic's frustration in sign up, he likely knew as well. Though his reasoning was analytical of the wagon and I was using linguistic analysis to determine it.
Well, I'd be interested to hear what made you so certain of me last game when I'm town confirmed in this game.
Well pie and Chris were both scum that game, and I said they were both scum with 100% confidence. Note the only other vote after that point was on supa and the vote was merely to gain compliance.So I switched my vote from chris who was scum to pie who was also scum. I don't see that as any sort of failure.
I think you're missing the point. I'm not saying that you incorrectly sussed someone in that game. I'm saying that you didn't put nearly the level of analysis you're using in this game into that one, and that you weren't driven in the same way you are now to convince others that you were right. Maybe that changed in later DPs, but the fact that it's happening here and now is what has me on edge regarding your behavior. If this is town you, I've never seen it.
Please is right. There are a lot of players flying under the radar, because you are nit picking about my reads.
You were the one trying to convince everyone that you are right and that we should just get the lynch over with because you know better over what I still believe is nitpicky reasoning. That kind of distraction is not beneficial to town. Even if you end up being right, the fact that you've been so focused on it to the exclusion of all else up to post #122 stands out to me as well.
But that's the last I'll say on it. I don't want to waste more time discussing this, and it looks like you're willing to set it aside for now. I will as well.
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@Wylted
You also jumped off that lynch and onto Pie on the same page. What I'm noting is just how exhaustive you've been in explaining this particular choice for a lynch. You often do what you did in that game - you go with your gut and you don't provide much, if any, reasoning. This kind of analytical tunneling based on a single post is unusual for you.
Also, I'll note that emphasizing your reads after you were NK'd is something I did as scum in the last game. Not saying that there's no value in doing it, especially if there's decent justification for the read, but I'd take any effort to push a posthumous read with a big grain of salt.
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@Wylted
I’d like to see those games so that I can compare your behaviors in them to what you’re doing now.
Just because you figured out who scum was in a different game early on with a clearly different set of circumstances clearly doesn’t mean that you’ve done that here, or that if you had, you were any better at conveying that to town and leading lynches to that effect. You may be right, but none of us are buying your reasoning. That’s your problem here. That’s what is making this a waste of time.
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@Wylted
Say what you want, Wylted, but what stands out a lot more than a couple of supposedly fluffed sentences is your behavior in this DP. I can’t recall a time when you’ve put this much work into pushing a lynch. I’m honestly having a hard time thinking of an instance where you were this active, aside from when you were fake claiming PRs in later DPs. Pushing a lynch this hard over something this small looks pretty unusual to me, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen town do it before (excepting some instances with Elm, who always seemed to find minor out-of-game reasons to sus people). Meanwhile, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen people post the kinds of sentences that you’re sussing as town. He certainly isn’t the first one to display self-conscious behaviors or repeat themselves within a post. I’m not going to scour every single DP1 of the previous games to find an example because I already feel as though I’ve wasted enough time digging into this with you.
If Poly is scum, then this won’t be the only scum tell you’ll find as the game continues, but if this is all you’re going to focus on during this DP, then you’re providing no room to find other behavioral tells from other players. This is eating up all of our attention. Maybe your tunneling will be justified at some point, but it sure as hell isn’t if you can’t get anyone to vote with you despite all this work.
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@Wylted
I understand your point. I keep trying to attribute better points to you, and you keep settling back into this one, which wasn’t convincing to begin with. I understand that you see his fluffing of his sentences as self-conscious behavior and you think that only scum would do that. I disagreed when you said it initially. I disagree now, and now it’s also apparent that there isn’t a history of this that indicates that he is scum, which was also a point I’ve made several times.
Just to clarify, I’m not saying that Poly isn’t scum. I haven’t seen enough from him to know. All I know is that this, as a reason for sussing him at all but especially as a reason for saying that you are absolutely certain that he is scum, doesn’t make sense to me. You’re clearly not recruiting people to your view on this. I think it’s a waste of time, and I’m done addressing it.
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@Wylted
I don't buy it, dude. I really don't, and at this point, this is starting to look desperate. Even if you end up being correct, this is the definition of tunneling and it's a huge waste of time. This isn't behavioral analysis anymore, it's English class, and it's just not convincing. Your commitment is admirable, but I'm not going with you on this. It's putting too much emphasis on the phrasing in a single post with too little reason why it matters. If you have something new to add, go for it, but this explanation has gotten so nitpicky that it's lost all meaning in the context of the game for me.
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@Wylted
So you still scum read him, despite the fact that you clearly just demonstrated that he has done both this behavior and a far more confident behavior in two separate games where he was scum? Honestly, this looks more like you're just critiquing his language at this point. Being repetitious with his sentences doesn't make him scum, dude, and you're certainly not going to convince many people with that kind of argument. If you want to continue tunneling him under the hopes that you're right, be my guest, but it's a waste of time at this stage.
And yes, I figured one of the main reasons you were scum reading him was that, in using uncertainties in his statements, he was hedging. I suppose I was wrong on that front, though that honestly seems like a far better reason to sus someone than the amount of fluff they put into their sentences.
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@Wylted
Hey, so... that looks like a lot of work... just... just one small problem...
Poly was scum in both the Fast Food mafia game (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6584-fast-food-mafia-endgame) and the Fire Emblem game (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6667-fire-emblem-mafia-endgame). What you just demonstrated is that he does both the hedging behaviors that indicate self consciousness AND the behaviors that indicate certainty in different games as scum, i.e. that it appears inconsistently in his scum play.
If you want to look at an actual example of his town play, the TUF Villains game works (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6488-tuf-villains-endgame).
Let's look at his posts in DP1 (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6467-tuf-villains-dp1). I see a mixture of hedging and certainty, emphasizing the latter the deeper into the phase he got, but I'll focus on the hedging because that's where you see him as sus based on a single post.
He provides more justification for his role, which includes some hedging and uncertainty (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6467/post-links/277789)
"Don’t know much about the characters and who would be town vs mafia, but my guess is that Kamaru Usman is town because he was the tournament winner of the Ultimate Fighter 21 of the American Top Team. However his actions that season by claiming he wasn’t holding the cage, even though he was, makes him miller"
Could also look at Ancient Roman Battles, where he was town (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6464-ancient-roman-battles-mafia-endgame). Didn't really contribute until DP2, but his first post in which he did is full of "I feel" statements that get stretched out.(https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6445/post-links/276997)
"I feel as though badger initially added chris to his list of suspects just to make Chris appear less scummy in the event that he was lynched. Badger pushed for Chris to give info in the beginning of the first day phase but it wasn’t such strong pressure like his other suspects. In fact, badger kept pushing for me to get lynched in most of his posts. Nearing the end of DP1 I feel as though Badger put his last vote on Chris as a means to make him seem innocent. So I’m curious to hear what Chris has to say about all of this."
So, seriously, can we drop this now, or do you have a better demonstration of your point hidden somewhere else?
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@Wylted
Well, then you’ll have to demonstrate it. If you’ve done the work comparing his town and scum game, then show it. Give example posts from each game that showcase what you’re talking about, because yes, I’ve taken you literally. If it’s some abstract concept, one without support, then you almost certainly will not recruit me to your view. I can’t help but continue to see this as tunneling over a single post with the only reasoning being that Poly was self-conscious, and that looks scummy to me.
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@Wylted
Wouldn’t say I have a specific technique or looking for a single tell, though looking for distinctions between how someone has behaved in a previous game and how they’re behaving now is a good start. If you could point out to me that Poly regularly behaves more confidently in DP1 and that this is an oddity, I might be more inclined to believe the case you’re making. As it is, I’ve looked into it, and I don’t see any behavioral differences. Poly also tends to be absent for long stretches of time after he’s been sussed, as he was two games ago. Can’t say I’ve seen that here, since he chimed in several times after you VTL’d him.
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@drlebronski
my tags likely got drowned out by other notifications anyways,The reason i claimed was because i thought there was no point in not claiming since my role is basically nothing though now I realize I shouldn't have claimed.
…But you were in the last game. You saw that we had multiple vanillas who all delayed claiming. You also likely saw the discussion surrounding whether even a Miller should SOP claim, largely on the basis of whether it helped town to claim Miller so early. I get that you’re still relatively new to this, but some of the previous game should be informing your decisions in this game.
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@Wylted
I have a hard time seeing the logic behind being self conscious for other reasons. Logically it makes sense to be self conscious as scum, but the other explanations seem like illogical reasons to become self conscious
Yes, because all we should concern ourselves with when we see someone being self-conscious is whether there’s a motive behind it. It’s WIFOM, dude. Your case that someone is 100% scum is built on pure WIFOM reasoning.
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@Wylted
You’re tunneling, dude. Shockingly, when I see someone tunneling in DP1 over what looks like pure BS, I call it like I see it. Chalk this up to anything you want, I’m not the only one who has noticed.
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@Wylted
Or he could just still be relatively unsure of himself. Or this could just be DP1 and he’s unsure of any choices he could make. Or he’s feeling out other people to see whether they share similar opinions. Speaking as someone who is very self-conscious as town, I disagree with you completely. I used post shit like that all the time in DP1, but I was almost never scum. You said he is absolutely scum. Why does no other explanation fit?
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@drlebronski
While we’re at it, you’ve been online, but you haven’t said anything in response to several posts sussing you and two VTLs (just because my vote is on Wylted now doesn’t mean you’re off my radar). You were so enthusiastic before. What happened?
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@Wylted
Verbosely is fine. This is a distinct style of writing that indicates self consciousness.
You keep changing your story. First it’s that he was too wordy. Now it’s that his style is self-conscious. I agree that he was hedging in his post. I have seen him do that in both of the previous games he played in, including one where he was town. Why is that inconsequential? Why is this specific instance of self-consciousness an obvious scum tell?
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@Wylted
Acyually I explained enough, but I will give a detailed explanation when the bitch is asleep.
You’ve been utterly non-responsive to me. You’ve provided absolutely no analysis of Pie to explain why he, especially, is sus for being verbose. Hell, you’ve provided nothing but an extremely weak WIFOM explanation for why someone would post more verbosely in a game like this that both ignores Poly’s history of posting like this in every game and ignores that the far more obvious explanation for hedging is that it’s DP1 and we have rather limited information. You’re chiding everyone for not sussing over behavioral information after a grand total of 3 pages of posts, much of which you’ve spent pursuing this lynch rather than trying to get any behavioral information at all.
But, hey, you’ve explained enough. Take a break. You’ve earned it.
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@Wylted
Even if he’s scum, dude, Poly has nothing to worry about from this wagon you’ve formed. You’re not justifying it in any way that’s actually going to recruit enough people to get a lynch off, you’re refusing to provide more than the most perfunctory of reasoning, and you’re not responding to anyone who is asking you to explain yourself. So, screw it.
Unvote
VTL Wylted
Wtf is this about? Why are you sussing Poly and no one else who is posting verbosely? What is it about Poly, specifically, that makes this behavior sus?
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@Polyglot
Really don’t understand this wagon being formed against me.
You’re not alone. Wylted doesn’t seem to want to justify it beyond saying “wordiness = scum” and GP is apparently just doing it to troll me, since I’m the one he chose to tag on that post. I wouldn’t worry about it, dude.
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@Greyparrot
Good contribution, GP. Always appreciate your in-depth analysis.
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@Wylted
I didn't say lack of concise wording is a scum tell. I was saying being too wordy is, especially with somebody like poly. There is no word to describe the behavior, but poly scum slipped. He is 100% scum and we should be lynching jim this dp
The rest of this is just griping about different play styles. This is all you’ve given to support your lynch.
A lack of concise wording is basically the same as being too wordy, so I don’t understand the distinction. I’m not sure what sets Poly apart in this, either. You say “especially with somebody like poly” but I don’t see any reason why he, specifically, is scummy for being wordier. I’m not even clear that he’s been wordier in this game. I’ve looked back over the last two games, one where he was scum and one where he was town, and I don’t see a distinct difference between them in terms of wordiness. So, yeah, I think you’re reaching with this reasoning, dude.
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@Vader
@drlebronski
I don't want it make it seem like I'm defending Bron's action, but I don't think he knows what an SOP claim is either.
Good point. Bron, an SOP (standard operating procedure) claim is one that is usually seen as beneficial to give early on. A good example of this came in the last game: Disc claimed Miller in DP1 because doing so alerts the Cop that they will investigate guilty, but actually be innocent. Keeping that quiet can lead the Cop to push a mislynch. As you saw as well, there is some disagreement over whether such a claim is actually SOP, but Miller is one of the more common roles to claim early because there is potential utility in claiming early, whereas claiming Miller after you've been investigated is seen as scummy.
On the other hand, claiming Vanilla affords town largely negative utility. Vanillas could potentially be night killed by mafia, serving as buffers for power roles among town members. Claiming Vanilla, especially this early and without pressure, gives away important information to mafia (the pool of potential power roles is reduced) and gives you cover should you not be the target of the night kill ("they see no value in killing me, that's why I'm still alive"). The only potential benefit is that no one tries to protect you and they potentially have less reason to investigate you. All of these factors compound to make you look scummy because a) you made the PRs in this game more vulnerable and b) this kind of claim looks like it's giving you cover. I should know - I claimed it last game as scum, but not this early because I knew it would have immediately been sussed. The only reason why GP isn't getting sussed like this is that he does this all the time. His meta is to consistently claim in DP1 (though now that I look at it, the lack of a full claim from GP is surprising). For him, this reads as town, even if his strategy ends up hurting town in some instances.
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@Lunatic
But we need as town to get out of the habit of requiring so many claims dp1.
Agreed.
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@Lunatic
I see your point, though I don't fully agree with you here. Think I would have been against the massclaim if I was town as well, but maybe that's just me being stubborn.
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@Lunatic
How did it do more harm then good? Supa was rendered useless because of the leb lynch, and earth was never supposed to claim his character truthfully, he just decided not to read the day phase lol
Well, I can't really say anything about Bron's lynch because his had more to do with the perceived oddness of his role, which shouldn't have been such a big deal and I agree that that lynch was BS (wouldn't have been on it if I'd been town). That much I wouldn't chock up to the massclaim. And yes, I would say that if Earth hadn't claimed truthfully (as both you and I were very clear he shouldn't), things might have worked out better, though I get the impression that any alternate claim (there weren't exactly a plethora of good choices) would have led to a wagon on him that would have either resulted in his being lynched or eventually claiming Nurse Joy defensively. Even assuming that he somehow flew under town's radar, Pie and I would almost definitely have singled him out.
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@drlebronski
The above should have been directed at you as well.
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@ILikePie5
I agree that the pattern of behavior from Bron is a little off here. I don't believe he's been Vanilla before, so perhaps he has a reason why he perceived the role as SOP, though it should have been pretty clear from previous games that that isn't the case. GP does this all the time, but Bron really doesn't. It's certainly odd behavior for him, but I'm having a hard time determining if it's something he would do as scum, or if it's just poor strategy.
VTL Bron
Mind explaining why you claimed without any pressure on you?
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@Lunatic
Yeah, you copping me guilty would have ended this a lot sooner. In that sense, it could have worked out very well if others had similarly found the claim to be sus, so I'm not discounting the value of the massclaim entirely, just pointing out that within the context of this game and how it played out, it probably ended up doing more harm than good.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'd disagree that I got much pressure at all for my fake claim. It got noticed, but in the end, your claim got more attention than mine did. I do agree that Pie's claim got sussed hard and fast, though it only led to a lynch after you got the role claim, and I think you would have pushed for a claim from Pie after his behavior in DP1 without the mass claim.
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GG, guys. For those who are wondering, yes, I really was traveling and, yes, I really was slammed on Monday (hence the delay in posting).
I agree with Poly that I think the massclaim was a mistake. Even with as many claims as we had up to that point, getting more just ended up dragging down town, since we didn't have to guess at anything. We also had our fake claims prepared well before that started, so you weren't hurrying us. That being said, it was really hard to figure out solid fake claims on this one. All the major roles were taken and Luna was smart to do the fake claim of Pikachu, really made the Charizard claim stand out. The Narrator wasn't completely out of left field, and I know that if someone had claimed that I had been town, I probably wouldn't have sussed it much.
Anyway, good job Earth for figuring it out in the end. Oro was right on the money in DP4 and had me utterly pegged by then. I think town was all over the place when it came to sussing in the first two DPs, though the lynch on Evil was warranted based on behavior and the plethora of vanillas.
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@Wylted
classic scum tell. As scum you are more self conscious, so you'll do things like be less concise. Particularly stretching out your sentences and it looks precisely like what you see above. Poly is scum. Now that poly knows I can basically soul read people in this game, when I am on, she'll be overthinking what she writes and you may see the opposite start to happen, instead of typing naturally.
This... isn't very convincing. If failing to be concise is a scum tell, then I would be scum every single game. I think what you're assuming here is that Poly was actively writing this to be less concise with the aim of stretching out his sentences and hedging more on what he said, but that assumption seems baseless to me. It's far more likely that this is just how Poly writes, whether as town or as scum. I saw him write like this in each of the last two games. It's not a particularly convincing way to make the case that someone should be sussed, but determining his alignment on this basis alone seems like reaching to me.
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@Wylted
@Polyglot
big mistake. Poly is 100 scum. Mega scum slip, in the post you are town reading him forVtL poly
Yeah, I don't get this, either. I'm not sure what you're seeing as a scum slip, particularly as your restatement of his point really just slimmed it down and had him hedging a little less. Not sure why you'd see that as scummy.
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Yes, because the correct thing to do at this point is read into who was NK’d. Disc is using the fact that Oro was NK’d instead of Earth (the latter of which he thought was obvious during the last DP) as a basis for sussing me. This is WIFOM if I’ve ever seen it. He could just as easily have purposefully NK’d the “wrong” target to make the case seem as obvious as possible against me. He wants to make this simple, but bringing it down to a single decision like this just means he wants to avoid obvious issues with his behavior and claim.
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@Earth
Alright. It's late. I'm exhausted from a day spent mostly traveling. And yes, we are finally at the end of the road in this game. It was pretty clear during the last DP that Earth would be the key decision-maker here, so I'll direct this to you.
As the only one of us who is town confirmed (you’re Nurse Joy, our only protective role, the consistent target of the RB, and you didn’t hammer me when you had the chance), this is your decision. You clearly found something you agreed with from my posts in the last DP. You don’t buy the Miller claim any more than I do, just like we didn’t buy the Bomb claim from Pie. The Mewtwo claim itself jives too well with Giovanni, and stands out from the rest as the sole movie claim, making it rather safe from the outset. And I’m not the only one saying all this - Wylted and Evil were on the same page.
None of this changed with Oro’s analysis. All he told you was that Pie pushed hard for a lynch on Disc that was clearly never going to happen. I don’t think Pie would waste his time on this unless he felt that he was gaining something without the lynch - namely, to draw attention away from himself, potentially no lynch, and cover for his scum partner. I’m not sure why Oro didn’t find the lack of a vote on Pie to be striking, especially as he was the alternative for a lynch, nor why he didn’t mention Disc’s decision to flip on the VTNL without providing any defense for himself, despite your vote on him.
What’s more, there’s a history of this partnership. Disc and Pie have been partners before in two separate games:
In both games, Disc was manipulative, using what was often minimal analysis to doggedly push on others. He’s also been at this far longer than me, and has more experience with bussing and how others react to it. In this game, he led the lynch on Evil, pushing us into this situation without the careful consideration that we should have had in DP3.
This is mostly just a summary of what I've said before. You can take your time looking back through the previous discussion on the matter, but I don't have anything to add. Whoever you vote for will be lynched and the game will end. So I'll leave this here and leave the rest to you.
VTL Disc
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