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@JoeBob
And as much as I want to do that, I do not remember anyone’s behavior when they were scum vs town.
If you don't remember anyone's behavior well enough to compare their current behavior to their behavior in previous games, then fair enough, but you can still analyze other players behaviorally. Look at their words and actions from the point of view of 'would they more likely do this as scum or town?' Ask the questions you would ask if you thought someone might be lying to you in real life. That's how you scum hunt.
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@Mikal
If Luna is town locked. Someone joining my wagon (albeit for different reasons ) is prob scum since 4 or 5 people were wanting to kill him.
Not an unreasonable assumption, though I will point out that neither I nor WF ever actually voted for Luna, I don't think.
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I could have sworn that Mharman said somewhere that this game would be role madness, but I can't find it. Technically, that wouldn't necessarily preclude a Vanilla depending on how exactly you define role madness (sometimes a game with one vanilla is still considered rolemad depending on who you ask), but it doesn't look good for Vader either way.
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@Mikal
I supa flips scum. Should town lock Luna and that means another scum is betweenWfYouCasey.
How do you figure that?
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@Mikal
That being said he did tweak out on RM DP1 as town if you consider that to be similar to this
I don't remember it being such a huge crashout but I was also kind of lazy that game. It is a point I'll take into consideration. I can see points for and against his favor. I'll expand on my thoughts some more later, at work rn
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Say what you will about RM, but I don't think he should be used as a barometer of normal human behavior.
💀💀💀
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@Lunatic
feminist mafia this literally just happened why are you pretending you don’t remember that game?
AR was the one who crashed out in that game, I don't remember you doing that, certainly not like you've done it here.
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@Lunatic
Jesus Christ. Not a single person town reads me. Idk what I did wrong. Just mislynch me so I can laugh at you from the graveyard. I actively want scum to win now. You all can go fuck yourselves.
I literally gave a behavioral reason to sus you based on your behavior in a previous game where you were scum. Isn't that what you were asking for? Everyone gets scumread as town sometimes, it's not that big of a deal. That's just how this game works.
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@Vader
My PM was listed as Short Sword. That’s why I was so confused. Mharman clarified the issue and said it was one word
Okay, I buy this.
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@whiteflame
I also can't say I read Luna's frustration as scummy - I think it's NAI since he's bound to be frustrated whether he's scum or town based on this fixation - but the claim sets me off a bit. Not so much for the existence of a loom in game (again, I don't know enough about Terraria to speak on that), but on the Strengthener claim, specifically. Since similarity to the Wiki has been mentioned, I'll say straight up that there's not a lot on the Wiki about my character, so there's not much to copy. The details of my justification aren't obvious from reading it, so Mikal may be onto something there.
I agree with this. Strengthener is one of those claims that's always going to come off as suspicious. It's an easy way to account for being seen visiting someone by a Tracker or similar and it can't really be disproven short of a CC.
I will say that I also did not like when Luna said they townread me earlier, mainly because I realize that I haven't actually contributed very much this game. It reminded me of Microbiology Mafia when Luna said he townread me off of what felt like very little to me. That rubbed me the wrong way. Luna's meta as scum is to buddy players he sees as strong town players. But on the other hand, Vader also townreads me for largely the same reasons, and I don't think that he and Luna are likely paired, so idk.
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@Mharman
As the mod, you're free to do as you please, but this sort of thing is why I don't answer questions in-thread. Worth considering for any future games you may make.
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A few other reads for now:
Ultra's opening feels slightly towny to me, mostly for being very similar to how he opened the previous game.
Cerulean is not to be underestimated. That being said, there's just sort of something about him that feels different compared to his scum games. I have no idea what that something is. It's a certain je ne sais quoi, that feeling you get when you just know that someone is acting differently somehow when you've played a lot of games with them. I can't quite explain what it is about Cerulean that makes me feel like I can trust him this game, but so far those are the vibes I'm getting.
I'm going to avoid talking about things that the mod would obviously prefer that we avoid talking about, but suffice it to say, I still think Mikal v Toaster is most likely town v town. I have a hard time believing Toaster would go for that fakeclaim as scum.
I'm a little disappointed in Savant's activity so far and would like to hear more from him.
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@ILikePie5
You can probably go before Mikal cause you were on Hold.
Somehow didn't see this until now. I'll let Mikal go first, but I'll go ahead of you if that's alright.
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@Vader
I feel like for someone relatively newer to mafia with theme knowledge, JoeBob seems to helping out town. He's helping with the theme analysis and putting substantive posts compared to what I've seen from other games. Right now feel like it's a slight town read but again I haven't seen him play in quite some time so my opinion can change. He also said his item is vital as well, not really fan of this but we'll see where this takes us
I agree with this take. The only two games I can remember off the top of my head where JoeBob was scum are US Presidential Elections and Diary/Rants. In the former, he was very low activity and ended up getting CC'ed (bad luck, but behaviorally he was giving off no town signals). In the latter, I just remember thinking throughout the game, 'JoeBob is obviously scum'. Tbh, I don't even remember exactly why or how I clocked him as scum, I just found it pretty evident. Here, though, he's actually giving me town vibes with how involved he's being. Though I do think that at least a certain amount comes from being engaged with a theme he clearly actually knows a bit about, I'm still getting good vibes so far.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Skimming the DP cause I'm exhausted, will reread tomorrow, but this stuck out to me. It was one of the first posts and was made before anyone posted even a hint of a soft claim yet seems to imply knowledge of multiple characters and confusion over their nature and at the lack of NPCs being included. If you were just looking at one role pm (yours) it would make no sense to wonder at the lack of NPCs - you just have a sample size of one, and who knows what other people have? This seems to be a possible scum slip as the only way to have a sample size of multiple 'characters' to look at the very beginning of the game is to be in a scum PM with multiple roles.
This isn't a terrible suggestion, but I'll be honest and say that I HIGHLY doubt that Cerulean of all people would make such an obvious blunder right at the opening of a new game. He's a much better player than that.
It's also kind of ironic for me to be making this argument now, because just in the last game, I had a big argument with Pie about how blatant scum slips are very rare.
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Sorry for not being more active so far today. Just skimmed through the DP on my break, will reread when I get home and share more thoughts. Right now, Mikal vs Toaster is giving me town v town vibes. As for me, I am an individual item. Singular, not plural. My justification also kind of sucks.
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@ILikePie5
I thought the item was given and Supa could use it on who he wanted to. But you would’ve given it to Savant and we would’ve waived to implicated Supa
That's what I thought, too, but I asked Luna and the way he explained it, I was effectively just a JOAT with an Inventor label.
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@ILikePie5
Ya we did too. It was obvious especially after the soft claim
Yeah, I knew the scum team was almost definitely going to figure out who I was. I thought for sure I was going to die NP1 yet again until Mikal came out of nowhere with his scumread on me. I knew I was going to be allowed to live after that so I could be a potential mislynch.
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@Sir.Lancelot
@iamanabanana
Please consider joining, we only need three more players!
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@Lunatic
I am extremely surprised that town bought that a hypothetical scum team here would block an inventor over a watcher, in any case.
Honestly, that's a good point that I didn't consider. I knew I was roleblocked, and I was already townreading Savant who claimed to have the evidence confirming my suspicions, so that was enough for me. I did entertain the idea of a Savant/Pie team, but I didn't believe it because (1) Savant could have just lied about not receiving my item in order to put more suspicion on me, and (2) he could have just tried to frame Vader, and I would have fallen for it most likely. I really should have thought about what Banana not being roleblocked implied, however. I feel dumb for overlooking that.
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If Pie had been lynched DP3, I would have roleblocked Vader. The fact that the NK would have gone through anyway would have been enough for me to figure out who the partner really was. Very unfortunate for me, but I understand why Vader voted for me.
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@ILikePie5
@Savant
So, I take it you redirected me to Savant? What was the strategy there?
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@iamanabanana
For me, the hard pushing from you was more reminiscent of your scum games than your town games, but now, I think that might just be because you were generally more active and involved in your scum games. That might be the real scumtell. In any case, by the end of DP1, I was convinced you were town.
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Again, the scum team did a nice job. I still feel good about catching Pie based on behavior, even if I was wrong about Savant.
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@WyIted
I wish you had been more active in this game. Your logic was fantastic, but it came too late.
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@WyIted
Eh, I mean the one thing Pie was right about was that mechanically speaking, it was 100% confirmed that either he or I was scum, so it made sense to vote for one of us. I wouldn't have voted for Savant today, anyway.
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@Vader
Well, you weren't the only one who was only half right. I'm sorry for going at you so hard, I really felt like you were trying to deflect away from Pie. My bad.
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@Vader
I don't think scum Pie votes Casey first in a MYLO situation.
Well, I voted first, so that's irrelevant.
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@ILikePie5
Finally done with work for the day.
You know, I’m glad we both survived to the end. It’s always either you or me dead.
Agreed, this is some of the most fun I've had playing mafia in a while. Probably because I'm actually alive to participate and not failing as scum.
It’s actually easy. Savant was forced to watch you because Ultra’s flip puts doubt on Banana’s role.
This is just using Savant's own reasoning for not targeting Banana as a post hoc justification for why he supposedly couldn't have. But this argument does not hold much water. Banana was obviously a very likely target for the NK. No one would have put sus on Savant for Watching her.
That doesn’t justify why you you wouldn’t go on the record in DP2. You were playing both sides and setting up the mislynch on me. It’s pretty simple.
I wasn't 'playing both sides', I was solving the game. If you have one mislynch left and you can narrow the scum pool down to just three players, and you can get the town to go along with your plan, then you win. I figured there was a decent chance that Ultra was just guilty, so if he gets lynched, good. But if he was Innocent, then I know who's guilty with very little room for doubt. And I'm as confident as ever that my solution was correct. There's nothing scummy about using basic PoE. It's the town's best friend in any game.
Well you just pointed one out. But I’d have to go back in the archives. It’s happened before though. Might’ve been before your time.
If it might have been before my time, then it obviously doesn't happen "often". Also, Greyparrot is Greyparrot. I don't like to be mean, but he kind of sucks at this game and everyone knows it. The fact that he's the only example either of us can think of proves my point.
There were multiple townies who hadn’t claimed. But I of course chose the one townie who townread me the most and would’ve kept it for basically the entire game. Do you see how crazy that sounds.
It's not crazy at all. It's a known strategy to kill players who are putting heavy sus on another town player as mafia. You can fairly easily get a mislynch out of that logic, sometimes even two in a game like this. Mikal was suddenly putting heavy sus on Savant and I at the end of DP1, so him dying the following night was bound to put sus on us - just as I put sus on townies in Heroic Heroes and Microbiology. Any experienced mafia player keeps that strategy in their toolbox, so don't act like it was some insane risk. It was a very calculated one.
Wylted/Vader can’t be a team - as they would’ve hammered you or meVader/Savant can’t be a team - as they would’ve hammered you or meVader/Casey can’t be a team - as Savant is lying about me visiting you.Vader is confirmed town from my POV.
Fair enough, that logic does check out. I'll retract that point.
This is a pure WIFOM argument. What’s fact is that you got rid of the player who sussed you for doing what you did to Earth.
You aren't actually addressing my argument, because if you did, it would lay bare how absurd yours is. You are trying to convince everyone else (or just Wylted, really) that Savant and I tied ourselves together again with my claim, of which the character at least was easily guessable early in the game (Banana even figured it out), exactly what we knew was our biggest mistake when we were partners before, then I got called out for scummy behavior by Mikal, we killed Mikal (itself very obvious and suspicious), and then we either agreed upon a very risky plan involving me doing the exact same behaviors that already got me caught behaviorally, only grander and even more conspicuously, or Savant told me not to and I just steamrolled him and did it anyway, all while we could have just coasted instead, Vanillaized you, and rode the natural chaos thus created to an easy win. I know you don't believe that, Pie. That's not just WIFOM, that's an insult to my very intelligence. I am not that dumb to do something like that. You are explicitly saying that I am.
But anyway, I've defended myself plenty by now. I'm not going to argue with scum anymore. I'll see what Wylted has to say when he finishes getting caught up.
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@ILikePie5
Pie, I will give you credit where credit is due - you are much better at this than Vader.
This is all WIFOM. And I’ll tell you why you had to frame me. Because I was the Innocent Child, you had to make sure I wouldn’t be confirmed town, and you knew I wouldn’t because yall had a Vanillaizer up your sleeve.
This doesn't really address my point, however. Why not just coast through DP2, use the Vanillaizer NP2, then try and frame you by having Savant say he saw you visit Banana? Not only would that have been way easier to pull off, it also would have been far less risky than having me put all that attention on myself unnecessarily.
So if you were town reading him behaviorally, why are you bringing this up now? You could’ve just as easily said guys, I think Ultra may be town. You had a doubt he was town, but you didn’t say anything on the record, but instead ran a “what-if” scenario? That’s opportunistic.
I was going back and forth on the matter in my mind. I did think he might have been town, but I wasn't sure, and I was very convinced in my (Ultra, Vader, Pie) solution anyway (still am). I might have pushed harder to get Vader lynched instead but absolutely no one seemed interested in that, and I did see your point about you using a Framer on him being unlikely. Ultimately, Ultra was 50/50 in my mind but I figured his lynch would solve the game either way. If he's Guilty, his partner is probably Vader. Otherwise, it's you and Vader. I still stand by that.
So your “slip” that you found is somehow accurate just because it’s subtle? That’s just a lie. Scum slips are often blatant, and are real.
No, they're not. Show me one example of a blatant scumslip in a game. The only one I think I've ever seen was GP in Gunplay Mafia, and that was Greyparrot.
So you’re saying that scum Pie killed Mikal, who hard townread Pie just because of WIFOM?What’s more believable? Scum killed Mikal because Mikal scumread both members of the scum team (Casey/Savant) or Pie killed Mikal who hard townread Pie for WIFOM?
Who said it just had to be for WIFOM? You yourself speculated that he may have been killed for being a potential Cop. Why doesn't that apply to you as well? Roles were up in the air after DP1 - the only living player who had fullclaimed was Wylted, and it would have been a waste to kill him.
Besides, that sort of NK analysis can be a convincing argument as I already brought up. When I got killed NP1 in Microbiology Mafia, I thought that was a sure sign that at least one of you and Banana was scum.
Vader is mechanically confirmed town to me.
He shouldn't be. How do you know you weren't role copped?
You forgot the intermediate step:You killed Mikal.
You forgot to actually rebut my argument. Do you think I blatantly ignored my partner, or do you think Savant and I are just really dumb? I'll openly admit I'm not the greatest at this game, but I know better than to do that, all while making the same mistake I made the last time I was scum with Savant - tying myself too closely to my partner.
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@WyIted
Savant and pie could be scum together right? Again I have barely read the first two dps
Technically yes, but not really. There'd be no reason for Savant to bus Pie here, he could just try to say he saw Vader visit Banana instead. I would have probably fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.
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@Vader
The only argument that Casey really has is that I'm pivoting. So first it was a scum read because of my claim which they "never seen before" despite it being fairly common to a degree and on the roles list. Then it was a question of pivoting when I have remained pretty consistent on my beliefs. So what even is the argumen there?
So much wrong here. The pivot was that you first said I was insistent on lynching Ultra while still putting sus on you. I pointed out that this isn't true at all and I was the only one exploring other possibilities. You then pivot to saying that I was still supportive of his lynch and clearly wasn't actually directing attention elsewhere because Ultra still got lynched... Even though I wasn't even on his wagon and obviously had a strong scumread on you.
But this argument is pure projection, because you were clearly trying to set me up for a mislynch yesterday, making a whole argument about how Savant and I could be scum while playing coy about it. It's very obvious what you were doing.
And no, you're role clearly isn't common because no one else here has heard of it before! Maybe it was more popular way back when and that's why you decided to claim it, but that doesn't exactly look good for you.
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@Vader
Maybe Savant is noob but in the case of a claimed inno child which he said was DP3, why wouldn't he target him to see if anything happened.
Savant really isn't a noob anymore and he already clearly explained his reasoning. As for you, FYPOV this game really has to be either me and Savant or Pie and Wylted, assuming you're town. I guess me and Pie is also technically a possibility if you really think I'd go for the long bus like that, but you'd also have to believe I was able to give Savant a BP vest as scum. So it's really me/Savant or Pie/Wylted for you, and you don't really seem to be attacking it from that angle. Do you buy the scum team being Pie/Wylted, and why or why not? That's the only thing you should really have to make up your mind on in order to be able to make a decision here.
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@WyIted
Why am I waiting if it's pie and Vader?
Because no one is at L-1 yet, so if you vote now, the game's over.
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@WyIted
We are at LYLO. I have voted for Pie and he has voted for me, so don't vote for anyone yet. It's Pie and Vader tho.
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@ILikePie5
Now in DP2 Casey unvoted Ultra and consider whether he’s town, until…she voted him again.
Oh yeah, and this is just wrong as well. I was NOT on Ultra's wagon come the end of the DP. You can check for yourself.
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@Vader
This is 100% wifom. You were fully on board with the Ultra lynch and lynching him. You did not redirect any attention otherwise someone got lynched. You did redirect Savant's lynch in DP1 when he was on the chopping block to Earth though.
You're blatantly pivoting, just like you did in Years Mafia. It's a noob scumtell that you still show. I never said that we need to lynch Ultra, I was just not opposed to an Ultra lynch. And I clearly did direct attention away from Ultra and onto possible teams not involving him, namely you and Pie. Plus, I think it was abundantly clear from my interactions with and about you DP2 that I had a strong scumread on you even then.
Youre also just blatantly lying about me redirecting attention away from Savant DP1. It was Pie that took the initiative and took votes from everyone, and that's how we decided that day's lynch. Your attempt to put the blame squarely on me is as pitiful as it is obvious.
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The way Ultra acts when he's about to be lynched as town is very different from when he's scum. Go look at games like Ace Attorney DP1, Years DP3, or Middle School DP2, then compare and contrast Classic Movies DP2. Town Ultra glumly accepts his fate but wants to know why he's being sussed.
Oh yeah, and of course the aforementioned Mayday Mafia as well. The reason I was doubting the Owen lynch there is the same reason I was doubting it in this game.
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@ILikePie5
Looking further back, the kill on Mikal makes a boat load of sense now. He sussed both Casey and Savant for being on the Banana wagon. If they thought he was the Cop, it makes tremendous sense to kill him. Even if they didn’t, kill Mikal who literally caught both scum DP1 makes sense.
The problem with this sort of NK analysis is that it's very prone to WIFOM. Sometimes people are killed for sussing the right players, yes. But sometimes they are killed to make it look like the players they sus are scum. Just look at Heroic Heroes or Microbiology Mafia. In both games, I as town put heavy sus on another player who turned out to also be town during DP1, and ended up being the NP1 kill to put further sus on them. As you can see from Heroic Heroes DP3, it clearly worked on Austin at least. Hell, even in Microbiology, it worked on me!
But while I'm sure you thought it was a good move at the time, especially after you saw the flip, you fucked up when you killed Mikal. He was in my PoE and I still sussed him. I wouldn't have been able to solve this game so easily if he was still alive.
Also Supa, note the chances of Luna’s list that he gave you. I presume it was randomized, but what are the odds that if I am scum my exact fake claim is on that list in addition to my real role.
Vader is your scum partner, so this means nothing. Also, you're way overselling this interaction.
Let’s look at behavior. Go reread Casey’s posts. Her behavior in DP1 and DP2 is basically identical. She wasn’t happy with Earth lynch and was wishy washy right up till the moment she voted Earth. Now in DP2 Casey unvoted Ultra and consider whether he’s town, until…she voted him again.
Right, so I did something scummy by expressing my doubts about the Earth lynch and explaining why, Mikal called me out for it, then I proceeded to... Do the exact same thing again on the very next DP, except 10 times more blatant? Don't you think my partner would have tried to steer me away from that? Or do you just think I'm dumb? Because I promise you, I am NOT that dumb. And don't just say 'WIFOM', either. There's a difference between making a risky play and a just plain bad one.
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@ILikePie5
Okay the game is solved and the scum team is confirmed Casey/Savant. With Casey’s vote on me and Supa/Wylted not hammering, it proves that Supa/Wylted cannot be scum team. It’s confirmed either Casey or Me as scum from a vote mechanic perspective. Casey is 100% scum and combined with the fact that Savant is just outright lying about me visiting Casey, that’s the logical team.
This logic only works if we assume you're telling the truth in the first place. From the perspective of an objective outsider, the team could just as easily be you and Vader.
If you look back, Casey was setting up a mislynch on me DP2. Why even consider a Pie/Vader team with a Guilty on Ultra right in front of you.
I already responded to this point. Why on Earth would I set up an elaborate theory trying to frame you, who no one else believed was scum except maybe Banana when I could have just chilled, let Ultra get lynched, and then tried to frame Vader or Wylted? It would have been a borderline idiotic play for me as scum to draw that much attention to myself when I could have just relaxed and no one would have thought anything of it.
There was zero reason to believe Ultra was innocent unless you already had that knowledge beforehand meaning, an informed scum perspective.
Not true. The way Ultra acts when he's about to be lynched as town is very different from when he's scum. Go look at games like Ace Attorney DP1, Years DP3, or Middle School DP2, then compare and contrast Classic Movies DP2. Town Ultra glumly accepts his fate but wants to know why he's being sussed. Scum Ultra fights against his lynch, really poorly. This game, he was acting like his town self, and there was other stuff going for him, which is why I was quest the result. Besides, I was never against lynching him, I was just exploring a 'what-if'.
If you look even further back to DP1, she was setting me up as a mislynch with the whole bs about “scum slip.”
I still think it may have been a scum slip. No one else had posted about the questions thing in the OP, I don't think, and I feel like you as town would have mentioned it before if you had noticed it. Like I said, genuine, clear scum slips in this game are vanishingly rare. Most slips are subtle. Besides, you identify a slip that isn't actually a slip every other game, so you're being mighty hypocritical here.
Have to split this up into two parts, will finish my rebuttal in a bit.
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@Vader
Uhmmm, because Pie, an inno child next DP, and Banana, an un CC'd cop, are way more critical to town and who mafia would target for a kill. Basic 101 mafia lol
Lot to respond to right now, I'll post when I can, but I'll start with this. No, this is all wrong. Anyone with any experience in this game could see that the NK was almost definitely going to be either me or Banana.
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@ILikePie5
I'm also at work right now but I can explain in great detail all my reads and how I solved this game when I get home.
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@Vader
Let's say for a moment that Pie is scum. Who is the partner if not you?
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@Vader
You literally did it to set up a mislynch against Pie using your roles.
Right, I did it to set up a mislynch against the person it would be hardest to get mislynched, instead of just going after an easy target like you or Wylted. You really believe that?
You consistently said we need to lynch Ultra and then theorized about a possible mislynches then acted on it by outting fake results and vanillizing Pie. Pretty easy coast thru tbh
You're not making any sense. I was the only one directing attention AWAY from Ultra. And my results obviously weren't fake because Banana's role was real.
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