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@SethBrown
Why should I believe the apocryphe gospels, and which history books? Would you cite a source.
I'm not sure what your goal is in opening a thread about Jesus's parents, whether to question the Christian faith or to find the truth, so it would be nice if you clear that up.
Meanwhile I make some points clear:
1. Apocryphe means "hidden", not false. This is from an academic point of view. If the catholic church cast the apocryphe books out it's because it's a matter of convinience and not of intelectual honesty.
2. You won't see any historian casting out historical material like the apocryphe books because that would be biased and not correct for the sake of an investigation. I already said that if the apocryphe books are considered apocryphe by the catholic church is because they want to square the biblical content with their faith. Example, the book of Enoc says more about UFO contact than faith, so it's cast out.
3. The issue of Jesus's parents' age is controversial, but many historians agree with what I've pointed out, that Mary was like 13 and Joseph was more than 80. It's not only because of the apocryphe books but also because in the "oficial" books Joseph is absent in great part of the rabbi's life.
4. My source is the book "los astronautas de Yavé" by JJ Benitez, writer and journalist who mention other historial investigations in his book. There are many papers about it out there if you want to go deeper in this subject.
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@SethBrown
where did you get this?
History books. Also in the apocryphe gospels.
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@Stephen
"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit".
It is said that Joseph was more than 80yo when he accepted Mary as his wife, so I think the story as story makes sense because at this age and at this time was quite difficult that Joseph got bricked up and as a consequence impossible to have conceived a child, contrary to Mary who was 13yo and very fertile.
If we remain in the story, whoever wanted to get Mary pregnant "magically", a man with the characteristics of Joseph had to be chosen anyway because the idea was not only to keep Mary virgin but also have a respected and wealthy husband to save face and unable to touch her, specially in a society that used to live like the today's extremists muslims who look down on women. In fact, in several apocryphe gospels it is said that Joseph realized Mary was pregnant when he came back from a short trip. The story says that Joseph got dissapointed, scared and sad when receiving the news because he knew someone else got Mary pregnant (remember that Joseph was incapable to do so).
In summary, Joseph wasn't the biological father of Jesus and as a consequence Jesus was not a descendent of David. My opinion is that Jesus needed to be born in a respected and wealthy family in order to have a sort of "pedigree", and not necessarily inherit the blood, and Joseph was very useful for that purpose.
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What do you want, dude? There are no many christians in this forum, as far as I can see.
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@cristo71
On top of that, Jews were basically cornered into lending money for usury, which caused further resentment along with scapegoating.
Actually, the lending business of the jews is the result of the discrimination on them. I kind of remember that the jews were banned to commerce and do certain kind of activities, so in order to survive they started to lend money which was even more profitable and also more problematic for them.
I've got to add too that jews were also accused of being the creators of communism. Karl Marx was a jew and the father of communism, and Lenin had jewish roots, but I don't know if this was enough for Hitler to consider the communism as a jewish creation.
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@zedvictor4
Success breeds envy and contempt.And discrimination based upon perceivable difference is a default survival strategy.
Double reason to discriminate the jews.
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@FLRW
John 10:31-4231 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
It's also said that jews were hated because people who are very religious, specially in the past, accused them of having killed Jesus the Christ. However, that sounds like an excuse because the jews are a very closed community that barely mingle with common people. I think isolating themselves from the rest is another way to be hated.
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@Best.Korea
I know what Mao did, but I'm not talking about this filthy communist.
I guess you the Koreans hate the japanese as well. Am I right?
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@Intelligence_06
We hate the Japanese government for release chemically-polluted water into the ocean, we don't hate the Japanese folks for it. We hate Isayama, but for other reasons external of this one.
I thought you the chinese hate the japanese for what they did you during the second world war which was really cruel.
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@Best.Korea
It's clear to us that you've never been close to a jewish community and you've never read anything about the jewish history. 😁
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Antisemitism has a long history, specially in Europe but also in the US.
Thomas Sowel gives a very simple explanation for that: "...the answer is that they not only succeed, they succeed in a way which is a threat to the egos of other people..."
Do you also think the source of antisemitism is the envy for the jew?
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I don’t support either of them but for the sake of justice Israel should leave this land because it was already occupied by Palestinians.
Unfortunately this is not going to happen because the zionists are as dogmatic as their counterparts the muslims, they think they have the right over this land because a God told their ancestors to do so. I mean, how to convince a zionist otherwise? If Israel gets nuked, they very well deserve it.
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@hey-yo
Yeah I never got that argument. "God made us in His image," but we never read about how we are made exactly like Him.We would be gods if we were.
Haven't you heard of the ancient astronauts' theory?
"Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image,..' " genesis 1, 26.
Why God speaks in plural? Is there the possibility that Jehova is not a God but a group of aliens?
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When people suffer, fear or are under threat, they either get evil or find a religion or any belief to get comfort. This is the human nature.
So, evil is a mechanism of defense. If God created the human being I would say that his creation is a fucking mess because the human mechanism of defense is inappropiate or flawed.
In fact, this is one of the arguments atheists use to prove God doesn't exist, that what he created is not perfect like him, because a perfect being only creates perfect things.
All in all, the most logical definition for God (if you want to create in a abrahamic God of course) is that he's not omnipotent nor omniscient.
So, evil is a mechanism of defense. If God created the human being I would say that his creation is a fucking mess because the human mechanism of defense is inappropiate or flawed.
In fact, this is one of the arguments atheists use to prove God doesn't exist, that what he created is not perfect like him, because a perfect being only creates perfect things.
All in all, the most logical definition for God (if you want to create in a abrahamic God of course) is that he's not omnipotent nor omniscient.
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The US is breaking into pieces and you're discussing about the abortion. Lol.
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@SethBrown
feel free to tell me the biggest clues, I believe there are aliens somewhere (there just must be) im unsure if they visited earth.
They have been here all the time, otherwise the humanity would have fucked itself up long time ago. I guess they will show up sooner or later, but the clues come from the similar testimonies of the many contactees that exist out there. There are several books on that matter.
Well how do we know these angels & god are aliens? I see no reason in the bible to really believe they are. And again I dont think this theory is compatible with skeptics converting & the empty tomb, you'd have to also make a case it's more probable than the resurrection which I have no clue how we would do that.
I said the aliens were deemed as angels and gods because the people at that time were not conscious enough about how vast the universe is and they didn't have the technology we have now. UFO investigators presume this because the stories in the bible are quite similar to the testimonies of contactees in our times. I'm not going into the details of it because there is plenty of information on the Internet.
I doubt they were manipulated, they could've been, I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it. We have over 3000 manuscripts of the bible, and pretty munch every bible verse has been quoted by a early church father before
Are you fucking serious? You forgot to say the bible is given by divine inspiration. Hahahahaha.
The communication of any message is always liable to "noise" or defects of the people that are in charge of passing along the message. You should check out the broken telephone game to know what I'm talking about.
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@SethBrown
You think aliens resurrected jesus?
I think alliens have been guiding the human beings to their evolution in different cultures and civilizations (they still do it according to many testimonies) which means all the darwinian theory is bullshit. I don’t know if the scriptures say the truth, but if it does the only explanation for that is the allien participation in the jewish fate.
Havent seen any evidence of that
No evidence but lot of clues. I've always deemed the documentaries of History Channel about it as bullshit but they make sense today. There are many authors that have been investigating the phenomena and it all makes sense.
I have two issues with it, 1 even if it could explain all the factors (which it cant) why would it be more probabilistic than the resurrection2, it cant account for the enemies of christ converting (james & paul), It would not account for the empty tomb (which in my view is historical), this theory perpetuates the gospels are true, which would mean you'd have to accept the explanation they gave of saying the disciples stole the body, how could you say the disciples stole the body, yet have aliens resurrect jesus.
The bible has plenty of stories of encounters with "angels" and "God". According to several investigations, these ancient encounters resemble the today's encounters with alliens. So, it's quite logic to think that if the gospels say the truth the most likely explanation for that is the participation of these alliens who are the only ones that had the technology and capacity to make all the magical stuff of the bible, like the resurrection.
Needless to say, I still think the gospels have been manipulated for political and religious purposes, and they are still manipulated by stupid interpretations. So, maybe the Jesus' message was part of the allien project, but there is also in the biblical content a lot of prejudices and beliefs from people of that time. We've got to be careful with it.
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@SethBrown
Well, let's be bold in our arguments then. There is also the theory that all these fancy stories are based on real facts, but related to an advanced extraterrestrial technology and the UFO phenomena.
According to it, the ancient cultures had contact and help from these beings in the following order: Babylonia, Egypt and Israel (see History channel documentaries for more reference). These alliens have been doing genetical improvements in the human being by means of virgin conception of aristocrat women (artificial insemination) and also giving the right to resurrect those new specimens that worked well, like Jesus. So, Jesus was probably a new human being with extraterrestrial genes that was resurrected to be taken to "heaven" like Elijah was taken by "a chariots of fire".
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@SethBrown
The theory that it was just made up years later after the apostles, and the apostles never actually claimed that
Probably. The gospels are written in greek and we don’t know if the writer put his imagination to work on it. The greeks also believed in that kind of fancy stuff.
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The first Christians were more divided than you think. It's an error to say all first Christians believed in resurrection, the trinity, the virgin birth and all this fancy stuff. Actually there was a group among them that believed (and still believes) Jesus was a mere human as you and me. They are called the gnostic Christians.
Where did these fancy stories come from? Basically from other ancient cultures, like the Egyptian and Babylonian. Jews really liked to mix up their traditions and beliefs with other culture's. You can also find in the old testament different references to other ancient cultures' stories. Why did that happen? I don't know, since there was no copyright back then I suppose everything was possible.
Where did these fancy stories come from? Basically from other ancient cultures, like the Egyptian and Babylonian. Jews really liked to mix up their traditions and beliefs with other culture's. You can also find in the old testament different references to other ancient cultures' stories. Why did that happen? I don't know, since there was no copyright back then I suppose everything was possible.
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@Stephen
Christians have never been able to explain why their god demanded blood sacrifices in the first place. What is it about their god and blood and killing.
I think, Stephen, that this practice is another proof of the existence of the ancient astronauts (alliens) that colonized this world with a species (humans) similar to them and were deemed as angels and gods back then. I'd like to know if you heard of it because it's the same pattern in almost all the old civilizations and cultures that existed around the world.
If you search more about it, you'll notice that in our days there are lot of testimonies of farmers whose animals were slaughtered strangely. So these "gods" or "angels" for some reason want animals to be "sacrifice", probably for research purposes, or maybe because they run out of food sometimes. It's a mistery.
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3 times a day? It's useless. I've never done it even when I was a teen with all the raging hormones. At most twice. If you don't keep your mind busy with useful staff you're going to waste your energy in masturbation or sex.
By the way, masturbation is no equal to sex.
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I can imagine Trump having a tantrum like Eric Cartman of South Park. Lol.
All the same, a republican will be the next president, not necessarily Trump.
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It doesn’t surprise me either. I've always thought that journalism and law are the most evil jobs in this world.
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@Greyparrot
The UN should partition a country between Nazi Ukraine and the Russian Donbas. 2 problems solved in one action. Lord knows we paid enough Billions to maintain that land in the past 10 years to authorize the USA to grant the land to Israel....
This is a good idea but I don't think Putin would like it.
Canada once proposed part of its land. Maybe Biden can suprise the world giving the jews part of the failed California. There are lot of options.
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@FLRW
C'mon man, let the God Gamers play their 3D war video games.Yahweh: 91,361 pointsAllah: 24,981 points
We are the gamers, FLRW. Jehova and Allah can suck my balls.
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@Swagnarok
I have no idea why people keep claiming the Middle East is a powder keg for WW3.
There are a lot of interests in the middle east for the US as well as for Russia and China. You should know that Iran is the main partner of China in terms of trade. Not to mention Russia that is also a strategic partner of Iran in terms of military affairs.
For the US and Europe there is a lot of concern about how Iran would react to a possible escalation of the conflict. The main concern would be the Strait of Hormuz that if it's shut down by Iran the oil price would skyrocket, and that is not convenient for the West.
I think Israel should leave this land for the sake of its people. I mean, it's quite stupid to think the jews can live peacefully in a land that was stolen to people that lived there for thousands of years, apart from being surrounded by nations that loathe them, this is quite suicidal.
The US should put on the table the possibility of moving the state of Israel to a new land. At least they have to try so to wash their hands later of Israel.
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There are only two possible scenarios in the conflict of Israel-Palestine, as far as I'm concerned.
1. Israel keeps slaughtering palestinians without any resistance from the powerful nations because for the jews it only exists the law of talion. By doing so, the third world war is guaranteed.
2. The powerful nations retake the old project of finding a land for the jewish state. As many of you know, before stealing the land of the Palestinians there were other proposed lands for the new jewish state, but all of them were ruled out because the zionists only had eyes for Palestine. The zionists turning down this proposal again is more than likely, but I think most of the jews would agree with this proposal because they only want peace.
If the second scenario doesn't work, let's say good bye to half of the world.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Bullshit. What are you smokin?Elon Musk is so fragile he had to get a hair transplant. He still ended up a thrice divorced loser.
Tell whatever you want, the next american president will be republican, thanks to the imbecility of democrats.
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@Best.Korea
The voter's standards are trully non-existent.They vote for whatever seems cool at the time, no matter how stupid it is.
Yes, they do. You've just discovered the wheel, asian. Lol.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
Trump is a total hypocrite. He said Hillary should be in jail for mishandling classified material and then he did much worse with classified material and tried to obstruct their return. He also destroyed numerous Presidential documents that didn’t belong to him.
I think you should check out what hypocrite means in the dictionary.
And I don't like Trump either but this is what the US and hence the world need right now.
By the way, I've never seen someone so bootlicker like you. Man, it's really desperate.
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At least Trump is not a hypocrite, he shows up as he truly is which is not common among politicians. And I guess this is the reason why people hate him, because he doesn't behave like a real politician who always try to get along with everyone using the hypocrisy.
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@YouFound_Lxam
There is also a lot of evidence showing that math has a designer.
You should have started off with this. Yours is a creationist argument.
To me, this argument is not enough to prove the existence of God, specially if it's the God of christians which is what you refer to, I suppose.
I would argue though that creationism can prove the existence of a "universal mind" or a "universal conciousness", but God is not just this according to religious people. For theists, God is omniscient, omnipotent, almighty, vengeful and loving, harsh and compassionate, unforgiving and merciful, in other words God is a mother fucker but also a saint, which is, as you noted, soundly ridiculous.
When you, christians, start to understand that your bible is pure nonsense, I think we can sit down and talk like the big boys we are.
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@Best.Korea
The baby seems to be ok after the procedure, so I don't know what you complain about. It's like piercing a toddler's ears.
By the way, are the people in the video your folks? They look asians.
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I'm afraid so.
Everything indicates that Europe is going to collapse for that reason anytime soon.
The conspicous seer Baba Vanga, aka the balkan Nostradamus, once predicted that Europe is going to succumb to islam by 2043. I know many of you think this is bullshit, but it's not necessary to be a seer to forecast what it's going to happen to Europe if europeans continue with this fucking woke migration policies. Hope it's not too late to kick lefties out and impose a far right government in all Europe to solve the problem. Because, understand it once and for all, muslims are the enemy of the west and for them we are their enemies.
Likewise, according to most today's seers, the state of Israel is going to dissapear as part of the escalation of the conflict in Gaza. Again, I know many of you think this is bullshit, but there is no need to be a seer to know what comes next. All the middle east knows it, the UN knows it, and the USA knows it, which can explain why the US is producing more powerful nuclear weapons.
My suggestion, nuke as soon as possible the most extremist islamic countries to avoid a massive genocide around the world. And fuck the lefties and its political correctness.
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@FLRW
OMG, are you saying we should celebrate IlDiavolo Circumcision Day ?
My dick will be famous at long last!! Lol.
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@zedvictor4
Circumcision can have health benefits in very specific individual cases. Whereas mass circumcision for ritual purposes does not provide any mass health benefits.In terms of necessity, ritual by definition is unnecessary, therefore ritual genital mutilation is also unnecessary.In so much as rituals are performed simply for the sake of the ritual performance. Which implies that the ritual does not necessarily necessitate any or all of it's parts.So mutilating genitals for the sake of the ritual performance, by association is therefore not necessarily necessary .
I know it's a jewish ritual but nowadays people do it to their babies due to its many benefits. Why don't you ask a doctor about it so that you convince yourself?
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@Best.Korea
Go get circumcised then.
It's not common in my country, but it's not a bad idea.
30% of babies worldwide are circumcised, just to show you that it's not a religious matter.
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To have a better idea of what happened at that time I think you should read more than the gospels, maybe the apocryphal books. The gospels is a historical material specially selected by the church for its political convinience, so...
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@zedvictor4
The genital mutilation of children for religious pseudo-sexual kicks is surely perverse.In fact the genital mutilation of kids is absolutely unnecessary.
If you refer to circumcision, I don't think it should be considered as mutilation. In fact, circumcision has many health benefits. The fact that it's practiced as a ritual doesn't mean it's unnecessary.
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@Greyparrot
As far as I know, mass shootings are due to mental problems of resentful people, mainly kids that were bullied in the school.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my impression.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my impression.
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This is probably part of the politcal correctness that the left set up in the contemporaneous society. I mean, people are not so courageous to say what they really think so to not offend the other, or simply because they were told that this is the correct way to behave, almost as part of the moral code.
In that matter, I have the same opinion of Jordan Peterson, we have to risk to offend the other because it's the only way to find the truth, or in this case to find the solution.
In that matter, I have the same opinion of Jordan Peterson, we have to risk to offend the other because it's the only way to find the truth, or in this case to find the solution.
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@Sidewalker
With MAGA Mike third in line, what we all need to pray for is the safety of Biden and Harris.
Don't worry. Harris will take charge of the government when Biden starts to shit in his pants.
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@Greyparrot
Japan is also the most homogenous nation on the planet. No need for guns to counter unwanted cultural diversity.
I can believe racial homogeinity counts a lot for avoiding social conflicts, but I think the problem is more complex. For example, South Korea is as homogenous as Japan, but its homocide rate is much higher. I think the religion or beliefs people hold also counts as well as other factors that I can't remember now.
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@n8nrgim
this is a debate website, so sorry if i'm not full of love and affection. i truly do have a softer side. you came at me sideways, so i tried to set straight your insults.
That's the problem of dogmatic people, they can behave like saints, but if they come across something that challenges his dogmatic view they can be extremely evil. This is why I fight against dogmatism, it's fucking harmful for this world.
Hope you're not that kind of person for the sake of this forum.
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@n8nrgim
frankly this is a non sense answer. i'm making claims of things that look supernatural, happening in modern times. you then for some reason say i'm stuck in the bible and that we need modern principles to understand it. okay, the bible point is a non sequiter, i dont know why you are trying to paint my miracle argument with being stuck in the bible, as that's only loosely relevant. you should use modern science to refute what i say, but when it comes to that, in the past you always get into pseudo science or hearsay. i think it might help you to take a class in logic and reasoning.
Maybe you've already seen my arguments about the supernatural but I bet you didn't pay attention to it.
if you prefer to believe a "magic spirit" does it all, it's your choice, I have no right to make you believe otherwise. But I have to tell you, get stuck in the bible is not a clever move to find the truth, this is pure dogmatism.
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@n8nrgim
are you saying there were reports from ancient historians of magic from nonchristians? or is this a contemporary thing? you need to cite something or add better context for me to accept your proposition.
The ancient times is full of magic not necessarily coming from christians. There is even a register of magic in the gospels, you migh have heard of Simon Magus, for example. But I guess for christians this comes from the devil. Lol.
christians perform miracles to this day. the catholic church requires that for a saint to be canonized, there has to be three miracles that are inexplicable. there's lots of examples outside of the catholic church too, in christianity. there's barely any or questionable examples outside of christianity. i know you contested that point once, but it was a non sensical response so i didn't respond to you. if you want me to show the flaw in your reasoning, go ahead and argue your points.
I'm taking issue with your arguments because you are stuck in the bible when it comes to find an explanation for the miracles, even when the bible doesn't give good reasons for explaining the phenomena, which is fine because it's based on a primitive mindset. We are in the 21st century, we need to find out what the fuck this is all about and I am incapable of buying what the bible try to sell us.
are you insecure with yourself or something?
I'm being as objective as I can. I know what I am so I don't care about what you think. You're the one who got out of control which shows that you have no control of yourself. You're dominated by your ego eventhough you're supposed to be full of love and compassion.
Anyway, I guess I was taken in by your horrible written english. I apologize.
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@n8nrgim
Jesus followers performed miracles in Jesus name. Even Jesus said that would and should happen. I think u r confused again
I refer to the documentary of History Channel which is more reliable, there were several preachers that used to perform "magic stuff" not necessarily in the name of Jesus. As I said, people back then migh have considered miracles as something magical because they were UNEDUCATED, but nowadays it could be seen as something scientifically explainable.
Have you ever witnessed a miracle like in the bible? Or christians nowadays are not enough christians to perform such miracles?
And remember, being UNEDUCATED doesn't mean being DUMB. Maybe you need to read more books. Lol.
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@n8nrgim
I have three honors degrees in engineering and science from competitive schools. Not just in formal education but otherwise I'm way over educated. The fact you think that makes me think that u r the uneducated one. Not calling myself genius, but there's a saying that genius mother Fuckers look like dumb mother Fuckers to people who r themselves dumb mother fuckers.
Alright. Maybe english is not your first language and I was prejudging. There isn't any info about you in your profile so I'm just guessing.
If you say you're a genius show us you really are at least.
I think the passage in the gospels u r referring to is where a man was performing miracles in Jesus's name but wasn't following the apostles. Jesus said who ain't against him is for him and not to worry about the guy. My guess is you r mistaken
Ok, genius, I was referring to the miracle thing which is your main argument to prove christianity. And as you can see, Jesus was not the only one that performed miracles, that's enough to debunk the magic nature of miracles.
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