Lunatic

Where is everyone

for my review, I thought it was interesting. I don't really think it was a Christmas movie, nor a Halloween movie. Good movie, but I wish that it could have ended with Jack being able embrace the joy of Christmas and incorporating that into Halloween Town

Respect the players. Do not excessively insult players outside of their gameplay.

https://youtu.be/81D8CCguW4g

You simultaneously acknowledge my frustration  at no one listening to me then make it seem personal to you. Anyone would be frustrated to be right about reads and not be able to convince enough town. It wasn't personal, and I also said I needed to work on how to better argue my reads since convincing town is important. You seem to be be reading personal issues and emotion into things that aren't there. I find this interesting since so many players do crazy irrational, seemingly emotional things on the regular including regularly rage quitting or sabotaging the game when people don't do exactly what they say, yet you do not seem to have the same concerns about this. I do not behave this way, yet you are now expressing some weird concern with my "emotional" behavior. It is worth exploring why that double standard is. 

The fact is  y'all constantly yell at each other and get super aggressive, call each other idiots, go on aggressive diatribes and tangents, but the moment I do something remotely similar or express the slightest frustration, everyone is like "woah woah chill." I think it's a gendered thing. It is something I have discussed with danielle,  because i don't get the double standard. But nonetheless it's unfair and frustrating.

The reality is, game is game. I don't actually take any of it personally, until people make it personal like they have in this thread. I get frustrated like everyone, get annoyed with balance issues like everyone, but for some reason it is met negativity when I do it. In that lovers game we are referencing you used semi-personal attacks in the game as a tactic to discredit my read of you as scum, since you were scum. I literally said in that game that I hoped you were scum and this was a psychological tactic, because if so I would respect it, clearly indicating my belief that game is game. I think that the reality is you're probs a nice guy IRL who is honorable and believes you should treat woman with a certain level of decorum and consideration. I think it is this sense of honor that makes you more sensitive to potentially frustrating, angering, enraging, or upsetting a woman during a game of psychological manipulation. But I have never expected nor acted like I should be treated less aggressively than other players. However, I also expect to be allowed to be enraged, frustrated, annoyed, petty, and sore at times,  just like every player I have played this game with. Whether those reactions are authentic or  contrived. 

You've always been a player I have respect for, but based on your description of me it doesn't seem you enjoy playing mafia with me, which is totes fine. Mafia isn't very important to me, and I only joined this game and the last game because danielle asked. I don't need to keep playing.

Again, I need to clarify that I have no issue with disagreeing on reads. We are town and have to be inherently suspicious of each other. Reads are hard. I take issue with being told, especially in endgame that I 'stumbled on' my 'baseless' reads with no logical grounds. Suggesting an articulated read was discovered by chance, very much is a dig at the skill and quality of a player. 

I never said I told you so or gloated. You and others started off by immediately making numerous comments about my reads being baseless and invalid even though they "happen" to be right, like some broken clock I responded in defense to these insulting statements by noting my reads were not baseless and that it is insulting to try and discredit them instead of think hmm maybe this human isn't an idiot and came to these conclusions for logical reasons. 

I have no problem with your disagreement on whiteflame, I take issue with you implying my read was baseless tunnelling and that I stumbled onto a read without any valuable analysis. Something you implied multiple times throughout this thread, as well as others, not just in comments to me but in exchanges with other players. It is rude. I respect you as a player and if you nail reads in a game and I turn out to be wrong you can bet your ass I am going to be like "Tuf, what did you see that I didn't" and not imply that a broken clock is correct even once a day. 

I didn't call you out, I said you are at equal blame for the loss as water. Because it's not fair to put that on water. The lynch was rushed and no time was given to assessing what motive a scum water would have to lie about Pie, a widely townread player, knowing Pie could turn around and contradict him immediately as a living player. if he was fake claiming he could have just ended his results with "I saw speedrace visit Supa." No need to bring Pie into it. So while I do think Water's miss-claim was hurtful to town, it was not the largest factor in the loss. Scum's play in that DP was very good, so water was simply outmatched.

This is a game and he is a player in it. I was explaining a phenomena in the game that is hard to recognize, something I am pretty sure (could be wrong) that you explained to me years ago. I, in end game ,was convinced I played super townie and couldn't understand why certain players read me scum since  I was certain I was playing very consistent with my town meta. I believe you pointed out that I was scum so no matter what, every action is colored by my knowledged perspective and a motivation that is not the same as towns. I believe you also said, the very fact that I was reflecting on my behavior and whether it was consistent with my town meta, is a scum exercise in itself.  I read Whiteflame as scum as did a few others. There is nothing dehumanizing in me noting that he should not assume he plays 100% consistent as town and scum, since the probability of same is small and it will deprive him of an opportunity to reflect on what stood out to people to improve his scum play next time. Notably, danielle identified some inconsistencies between his town v. scum play styles. At the same time I acknowledged that in the end his playstile convinced enough people which is a win. 

Notably, I offered this positive feedback in response to comments by him, in exchange with you, implying that I stumbled onto the right answer but had no valid basis for doing so. 

Dude are you kidding? 

1) I didn't attack, nor blame you. I defended water from your attempt to put undue emphasis or blame on him. I said you are equally to blame. That is not me solely blaming you. There are multiple reasons we lost the game including balance, bad luck, water's fake claim, good moves at pushing/rushing the DP2 lynch by scum, and refusal to give weight to my reads (for whatever reason) etc. You seem to have come into the endgame feeling anticipatorily defensive of me then read my post which was more about how much waters should be blamed than you as validation of your need to be defense and responsively antagonistic.

2) the use of asshole in the game was tongue and cheek and is not at all relevant to what is being said in this thread. 

3) I have never acted as god. I have asked for constructive feedback on how to better argue my perspective and instead you and others feel the need to instead imply my reads were baseless, idiotic, illogical, worthless, foundationless/factless tunneling etc. It is very much demeaning for people to be doing this and is especially disappointing that you would. Even now saying "I too have been right for the wrong reasons." Like wtf is that? Multiple people, including danielle have said my reads and reasoning were sound, yet your instinct is to undercut it. I even said in the game that getting people to actually vote for my reads isn't a strength, humbling myself to the fact that I need improvement in that regard, yet you cannot just say "you know what magic good call, heres how you can argue it differently next time, or I need to look back at my own play and reflect on how I missed X and why I couldn't be convinced by you." All I know is if roles were reversed I would be like holy shit Tuf, how TF did you know?! I would never try to invalidate you in the manner multiple people are attempting to invalidate me here. 

4) I have given credit to multiple players, including Pie and Whiteflame, so I am not acting superior nor asking for credit. Instead my defenses of my play are in direct response to attempts to imply my reads were nonsense, in spite of being right. 

Stop claiming I called everyone assholes. It is a lie. 

Due to ego or whatever else, instead of coming into this game like Supa and That1 and being like holly shit you called it, wish we listened to you, the instinct is to try and demean and undermine me and invalidate my play to the extent it was successful at all. Hell you could even reflect and be like, maybe I would have listened to you if you have presented it X way and give me that note. Instead you just pretend I was baselessly tunneling, without skill, analysis, logic, or understanding. It is insane. 

Even scum, instead of being like damn Magic, you had me figured out, you had me nervous feels the need to diminish my play for whatever egotistical satisfaction it brings them in their play. 

I spent 90% of this game correctly targeting one/two of the three scum players, and yet I have been antagonized by nearly every player and blamed for your own unwillingness to consider my accurate reads. It is crazy. 

I basically just skated by the past two games as scum because I had to do 0 work. Supa didn't have a theme break and we were drowning in fake claims in this one. All I had to do was literally just not die. I mean, in Supa's, I was practically begging town to lynch me and nothing happened. Mafia inarguably has it too easy.

Stop scum reading me in forum games

I understand your point, but I also think while she doesn't know his play style that could actually benefit her reads in a way because she wasn't thrown off by him behaving similarly as town in the past, and she hyperfocused on the fact that he was posting fluff. She focused on behavior from THIS game and not past "metas" which people have admitted skilled players can control and manipulate. Pie plays the same regardless of his affiliation. I also think I do a decent job playing to my town meta as scum.  So you're right that whitefame did spend a lot of time defending himself and not scum hunting (which you said made you unable to read him) but that was her whole point -- he was doing everything but scum hunting and that's why she read him the way she did.  

but you should give feedback if you think there is anything she can do to improve her arguments.

ps. You did NOT "trick" me into confirming there was no tailor lol. I went out of my way to confirm that all on my own in the OP! And then I was so absolutely, positively, categorically, unequivocally certain I wanted everyone to know there was no tailor that I reiterated it when you asked  even though I said I wouldn't answer questions publicly

We had a boat load of realistic fake claims, so I wasn't entirely too worried about being pressured. Part of the reason Mafia shouldn't be given fake claims.

So no one is attacking your play, you were successful. But do not try to undermine my accurate read by claiming it was illogical or baseless. 

This mafia game lasted 2 days and 2 hours.

Thank you for the acknowledgment. Maybe this will earn my reads more cred in the future. 

I never said it was all your fault. There was a wealth of reasons, including my inability to convince people. As I have explained multiple times, my read was not limited to the behavior you all explained from prior games with White. For whatever reason, my reads and analysis tend to carry little weight in these games. I am sure that is in part a skill I should work on, but it is hard not to think it is some personal judgment you and others are making concerning the weight and value you believe my reads warrant. Having played with you a number of times, that is a bit frustrating to be screaming a fact (that turns out to be right, for all the reasons I came to the conclusion in the first place) with town being the main voices undermining me and writing me off as irrational (Speed and You in particular). When certain people are sure of their reads, those reads are accorded with more respect. If you have feedback for how I can improve my presentation to be afforded a similar level of respect, I would love to hear because it is useless to be right if you cannot get anyone to back you up. 

I am going to say this one more time for the people in the back. My analysis was no limited to his passive nature. It was logical inconsistency, willingness to flip flop under slight pushback, pushing reads/lynch targets without a vote etc.

You all focused on the passive play and kept saying that is his town meta too and I kept saying that was not my only basis so it didn't change my read. For whatever reason, Town didn't want to hear an argument on White, which I found especially strange since you had like 5 games to base his meta on, none of which he was scum in, as he just acknowledged. 

SirAnonymous plays like 100x more annoyingly neutral than whiteflame, but this assessment was accurate. I think town is used to focusing more on theme like I said so they don't go after neutral comments as much as they should.  To be honest I remember whiteflame being more scum-hunty last game but in this game I wasn't paying close attention to reads. This ^ observation by Magic seems legit; the point about him not being online at 9pm though was not (I'm never really online at night when I'm not modding). 

Anyway going for realz now.  

I did vote drafterman DP1, I was willing to work with you on that. then no one joined and someone suggested White again so I changed back. But I was always willing to lynch drafterman or White and read them scum for most of the game. I probs never would have lynched Pie though had he not done what he did to Water, which I assume he only did because scum knew they had the win no matter what

Trust me on this. Last game he was going around for character claims from everyone and all of a sudden just stopped out of nowhere to lynch. It really is his meta as any affiliation

Fun fact, we were thinking about fake claiming Ghoul. Good thing we didn’t lol

Classic egotistical attempt and avoiding accountability. My reads were 100% accurate and based on scummy behavior that is seen as scummy in games constantly. You just don't respect my reads, and therefore were distracted by your own biases in that regard

And I'm not sure why you said publicly that you weren't the caroler which everybody thought and scum would have acted differently in the end had they considered other options.

Don't blame water, you are just as much at fault for the loss.