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@ILikePie5
Jesus Christ why are y’all spamming me this? I did not visit Supa
Thankyou.
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@WaterPhoenix
ya but isnt it still a huge int play if he were scum, cause then you all would lynch me and then i'd die and he'd just get lynched next dp
I mean he doesn't get auto lynched by proxy of you flipping town, it would be a point against him, but I'd still reccomend taking behavior and night actions into account.
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@drafterman
Lunatic speculated SK as a possible second third. You know what I'm thinking? Lyncher.
I could see that. Mostly because she is so willing to write bullish off of her results. However if she was lying I don't know why she would manufacture bullish into the results, if she wanted to garner my support for the whiteflame lynch knowing my pre-disposition for wanting to lynch bullish. I think she is falling victim to tunnel vision as a townie, more likely than lyncher, but I won't dis-regard it.
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@MisterChris
If WP flips town WATCHER, that indicates WP's negligence... not my affiliation. I would've been telling the truth in that scenario
For the record I am just being open minded with options here. I don't think WP flipping town neccesarily means your scum, there could be both a town watcher, tracker, caroler, and vig which makes for a pretty stacked town. But there is a likelihood as well that you are mafia scout in that situation, and I think it would be something to consider. My priority would still be bullish in this scenario.
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@ILikePie5
Ok so last DP was a clusterfuck and weird especially with Bullish switching so much, which fuels my FoS
did you visit supadudz?
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@oromagi
Huh? So far, Magic is claiming CAROLER results but this claim is not confirmed because nobody is claiming to be the CAROLER. If there is no CAROLER then Magic is lying and we don't care what she says.
Magic thinks I am the caroler, and I just confirmed I was not. That makes it pretty unlikely magic is lying, I don't see utility in that gambit.
If you are TOWN you are either preventing us from trusting ORACLE results by failing to confirm or you are preventing us from confirming a lie.
So far you are the only one who seems to be doubting the caroler results.
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@WaterPhoenix
also, how did mister chris know you visited magic then?
Mafia has a role called "scout" that is the same thing as a tracker. He would be a scout in the off chance he is scum. To clarify, I don't currently think misterchris is scum, but if you are town, it would give one cause to think that he might be.
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@LikeMagic
Unless it is role madness or scum is overpowered either in numbers or roles. Either way, it is not automatic scum read on one or the other. Instead we should wait for Pie.
I agree it's not the strongest reasoning, it's why I said I would still vie for lynching bullish over chris, but it would definitely give cause to suspect chris. I am perfectly fine waiting for pie.
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@LikeMagic
Magic its not that I don't trust your logic with white, I simply have played in every game with whiteflame and understand why players who haven't played with him would think he is scum. Your results convienently highlighted my biggest scum read from last day phase. It would be wierder if I didn't want to pursue bullish further after the information you gave.
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@LikeMagic
Are you kidding me? if Water flips town, then you go for MisterChris? Not White? You literally gave me the carol, the carol is confirmed, the carol lists a players that behaviorly was very scummy last DP (White), but you still do not trust my read or seemingly my results. We are screwed as town
I was really hoping not to say this, but I am not the caroler, and didn't give you those results. Why would a caroler's own name be on their results? That would guarantee that scum was one of the other two, which makes the role basically a justice (one of the most OP investigative roles). If water flipped town, I would still actually probably want to lynch bullish fisrt, but yeah there would be a lot to indicate misterchris is scum in that scenario.
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@WaterPhoenix
how does me being shit at english make mister chris scum
Watcher and tracker is kind of OP in small games, I'd say it's more likely one or the other is scum. Back in DDO's prime where there was 20+ players, you were more likely to see watcher and trackers as both town.
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@That1User
What were your results in visiting Magic?
Not at liberty to say atm. Irrelevant to solving any puzzles the game presents us.
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Alternatively, I'd be willing to put the water lynch on hold and lynch bullish based on the caroler results. I know I am town, and I suspect whiteflame is town, so this kind of confirms bullish is scum to me. I doubt others would bite for this option, just saying I am equally willing to lynch bullish if anyone's interested in that option.
Otherwise, it probably has to be water this phase.
Here's the thing with water, there is a world where water actually fvcked up and claimed the wrong role. He is kind of lazy and made a mistake as town doctor protecting a bulletproof because he didn't read the phase. Chances are less likely he didn't read his role PM correctly than reading a whole day phase though. And if he is town, he has no one to blame but himself for his action.
In the event he is town though we get a lot of good information from this, and it will guarantee us a scum in misterchris.
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Water's results are that Supa was VISITED by pie and Speed, which suggests Speed vigged Supa. Watchers cannot tell who someone visits so we cannot know from Water's results, assuming their efficacy whether supa visited scum, but I doubt it since it seems he died from the Vig. We need to hear from Pie. Pie was in my town pile.
Right, speed probably vigged supa and pie is probably town. I am just saying that if you are right and chris is scum, then its still a win win.
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@Speedrace
I know you can't respond, but if you shot supa, nice one bro.
*Thumbs up*
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@LikeMagic
This is perfect. Water just claimed results on supa. If we are wrong about water, this gives us scum in pie. He still get lynched today, but even if we are wrong and you are right, lynching water is a win win.
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@oromagi
Why?Seems like we really need to verify Magic's claim and we have you visiting her. You know it is suspicious to get caught visiting and then withhold your report.Does somebody else want to claim CAROLER?
I will claim if town wants to get information from the caroler results. Don't you think it's odd though, that if I was caroler my own name would be on her report?
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@LikeMagic
He was on the same time as water wasn't he? Why wouldn't he have made water fix the mistake last day phase?Exactly, misterchris was on for awhile and never cc'd Water
No,, I am talking about drafterman. Drafterman would have told water to fix his claim if he was scum with water. Chris was on right at the end of the day phase, I can easily see him not catching the tracker claim.
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@LikeMagic
misterchris had a long time to cc the claim and we all acknowledge that tracker can be a scum role. I CANNOT BELIEVE that I am pretty much confirmed town, got a result FROM YOU that confirms my analysis and read on White and am still being ignored by town. Will have to discuss in postmortam wtf I should do differently to convince town in the future.
If misterchris is lying, this just backfires on him. I am not saying you are wrong, it's just that the odds generally favor the CC'er in situations that aren't LYLO. If you are right, then that's awesome, we still get a lynch on scum just tomorrow. I don't see why we would lynch him first though. Misterchris was inactive all of last day phase right up until the end, so his story fits.
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Before we vote water do we get the claims from the carol results for investigators? On one hand it helps our investigators with who to target, on the other hand it gives mafia free info on potential of 1-2 townies.
I'd like opinions on this issue.
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@oromagi
Are you confirming caroler?
I'd rather not answer this, I will confirm visiting magic though.
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@LikeMagic
YOU ARES SCUM FOR SURE, You literally said that Elf could be watcher. You wanted clarity on this last DP to identify the threat to scum. It is common for tracker/watchers to fake claim the alternative to throw off scum.
He was on the same time as water wasn't he? Why wouldn't he have made water fix the mistake last day phase?
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@WaterPhoenix
i'd like to clarify the full claim i made last dp. i am not a tracker i am a WATCHER.
In the offchance you are town here, you still deserve to be lynched. This type of laziness is unnaceptable.
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@LikeMagic
That is complete insanity. Water claimed first. Misterchris said nothing until this DP. You should wait for water to come on and explain first. You are so scummy.
This is a pretty cut and dry CC situation. Misterchris confirmed that I visited you with his results so he has more cred here. Also if he is wrong, we can still afford the mislynch even with hated townie, meaning if water is town we just lynch chris tomorrow for confirmed scum. Despite me having been suspect of drafter previously, I don't agree that lynching the CC'ed person over the CC'er is scummy except in lylo situations.
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@MisterChris
As for my tracker results... well, DP1 results are not very helpful: Lunatic visited Magic. Lunatic, if you could confirm that you did indeed visit Magic, that confirms my identity.
I did visit magic.
So last two scum are bullish and water, or magic and water, if water is lying about the carol results. Awesome.
GG
vtl water.
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Keep in mind that if we find one scum among the caroler results, it does NOT town confirm the other two. I have been toying with the idea of giving dreamer/carol results two scum and one town result just to get rid of that logic and cause people to read role pm's carefully.
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@LikeMagic
I was visited last night by the caroler. I was given three player names, at least one of which is scum. White was one of the names
and the other two?
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Well getting cult recruiter out of the way was huge. And we have one less fake claim to worry about. I bought the character claim myself.
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I don't see him recruiting misterchris over speed that is, but I could be wrong.
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Speedrace might have vigged supa, he was suspicious of supa and voted him near the end of the day phase. I feel like that is the most likely scenario.
Supa's most likely recruit probably would have been speedrace because speed is a good player, and also it would get the pressure off of him. oro and misterchris were on him, oro is innocent townie, and I don't see him recruiting misterchris either. The most likely scenario then, is speed vigged supa.
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I am guessing supa recruited scum? This is probably good. Balance wise I am guessing a cult recruiter and maybe a serial killer? 2 scum and a cult recruiter seems a bit unfair for the town, but maybe I am wrong.
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@That1User
You should too, we have another day to pressure draft, we have 2 mins to vote WF
There isn't a compelling case on whiteflame. We are just lynching him for the sake of lynching at this point. Its a random lynch basically.
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only lynch for me is drafter, bullish or no lynch. If you guys want me on a wagon, those are the only options I'd consider.
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both the people trying to pressure drafter with me gave up easily for whiteflame.
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Supa is claiming the tim allen movie santa clause, not santa claus. I brought this up instantly and he clarified. I don't see the big deal
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@LikeMagic
I am willing to focus on drafter. He is seeming more and more scummy.
I can meet you in the middle and pressure drafter here. Especially after he jumped on the whiteflame wagon, considering he's played many games recently with whiteflame he should be in tune with his meta. If we lynch drafter here and he is scum, I want to note that he buddied bullish, and hopped on what seemed like an easy mislynch train, both are tells of drafter when he is scum..
vtl drafterman.
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@LikeMagic
to the extent we care about Meta: The only time I have ever been this outspoken and persistent in a scum read is when TUF (Luna) was scum in lover's mafia. Maybe when White likely flips scum people will give more credence to my reads going forward.
Your basing this off of being right one time? Holy crap.
I have gotten pretty lucky with my reads lately as well, but I am pretty sure I'd be spun as an asshole if I tried to use everytime I was right in the past to prove I am right now lol. For as many times as I have been right I have probably been wrong in reads as well. I don't think anyone takes this argument as convincing, but man, if you end up being wrong here it's gonna be hard not to reference you back to this post lol.
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@LikeMagic
This is what is frustrating me. NO ONE is use to his play-style. He is new, evolving, and has only played a few games on this site, per what everyone has said. I pointed out behaviors that scum employs in games, which he has objectively engaged in. You can say that is not enough for you to lynch him, but to claim it is because I don't understand his meta is nonsense. No one knows his meta.
He's played in enough games where I can say he is sticking to his town meta.
Avatar Last Airbender- Town
Paranoia- 3rd party
MCU Tools- Town
The Stand- Scum
Anime Waifu's- Town
That's 5 games he's been in fairly recently, and he's played literally every affiliation in that time, so I figure he's pretty readable at this point. The reason I am saying you don't understand his meta is because EVERYONE has had the same frustration with reading Whiteflame for the same reason you have. Everyone has scum read him for this. Me and Danielle did in Avatar for example, where he was 10x more passive than this. Elminster (Mikal) voiced your exact same concerns in MCU weapons for example, and was so confident whiteflame was scum because of his passive/fluffy nature that he got himself lynched to try and prove the point, and he was STILL wrong. Whiteflame is a pretty fluffy/passive player, and is learning and getting better, but I am not going to scum read him for behaviors I have seen him display as town.
He's literally never played as scum on this site.
Early on in the day phase I told you that he has, and even went as far as to tell you what to look out for when he is scum based on the stand mafia where he was scum. I am slightly offended that you apparently didn't even read that part of dialogue if you were so tunnel vision on whiteflame.
It seems as an outsider who hasn't played with him before I can just as easily have a more objective perspective than all of you. Also, I am playing inconsistent with my meta as town or scum. Thereby exhibiting the limits of meta analysis. it's literally a game of manipulation.
If I didn't just watch a townie kill himself to prove he was scum for the same reasons, just for whiteflame to be town, I might have bit this hook. I'd say in general the behavior isn't pro town, I am not dis-agreeing with you. Quite the opposite. I think you are hitting the nail on the head about the behavior not progressing the game or being particularly helpful. However I've learned a long time ago that anti-town play doesn't mean anti-town. Greyparrot for example, I've raged at him for playing scummily many times before, and he simply refuses to change. If the player won't change, you have to change your mindset to adapt to their style or you will continuously get mis-lynches. That said, I do think whiteflames overall gameplay is improving, and he had appropriately called out scum in the last game, just wasn't working as hard to convince others of the read. Whiteflame will be easier to read as the game progresses, but so far his behavior is consistent with what I've seen in recent games, so it's just a null tell for me.
Anyway, what are your thoughts on Drafter?
Kind of suspicious of him, more of a gut read atm based on his reads. He seemed to want to appear to put a lot of effort in, but when actually reading what he wrote, his takes are very simple. Only thing I really agreed with him on is that we should change SOP's regarding claiming when hated. That said, I am naturally suspect of anybody that excuses bullish's behavior this game, and he dismissed it rather easily. Drafter is known for buddying as scum also. If I had to put a top scum pool down right now, it would contain bullish and drafter for sure.
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Yeah I don't wanna lynch waterphoenix today anymore. In fact I think anyone sus of him is gonna be more sus to me.
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@oromagi
Anybody else want to weigh in on characters? Are we mostly movie and TV characters are there other seasonal aspects?
Jack Skellington is a movie character, so yeah im in that camp.
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@LikeMagic
Any discussion I have had on the topic was really directed at any argument that it was scummy for Bullish to point this out as a potential scum tell, especially since Bullish has historically been pretty "bullish" in his scum hunting as town in games I played with him.
In what circumstance would you ever scum read bullish? Why is he town right now? I just don't see it.
I am generally skeptical of theme analysis in forum games. It is very hard to get right. There is a lot of mod psych., plus there are so many variations of what could be scum v. town. In a game where we know that there are fake claims, I find it even less useful and more likely to be a waist of time. Danielle has historically been opposed to characters being capable of breaking the game, so it's more likely in my mind that scum either all have fake character claims or have enough of them to fake claim for whichever scum was unlucky enough to not get one.
The only real theme analysis I'd put into this is "Does this role justification make sense with this character" On a basis of my own characters role and justification making sense. It won't be enough to town clear someone completely who has behaved scummily, as scum really can be clever sometimes, but it will be something to consider while discussing them. Behavior will still ultimately be the ruling factor I'd hope.
Also, I totally missed your avatar thing. Weird character if you're townie. Interesting, you're one of my biggest town reads so I am not sure what to make of this. I never saw the movie so, I am not sure if the character is evil/bad, I just assume he is.
You should watch the movie sometime. Jack Skellington is definitely not bad. The premise of the movie is that they discover other holidays than Halloween exist, and Jack is especially excited about christmas, and tries to introduce it to halloweentown.
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@LikeMagic
It is worth highlighting that Speed is trying to misrepresent and discredit the reads of one of the two players he should feel comfortable working with and trusting the reads from.
I mean I pretty much said the same thing as speed did in regards to the whiteflame read, maybe just a little nicer. I don't think he is mis-representing you, I think the read on whiteflame objectively demonstrates you aren't used to his playstyle. I am not saying he is town, but if you were to convince me he was scum it would need to be with different reasons than the ones offered.
Everyone agrees I am more likely town than not based on my claim and behavior frankly. Yet Speed's big contribution is dismissing one of the other "known" townies and trying to make people not listen to them.
I am not dismissing you as town btw, I am still weary of your claim. You just aren't the focus right now. Not sure "everyone" thinks you are town either.
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@ILikePie5
Are y’all voting Bullish to lynch or for a full claim?
Lynch. If his claim somehow justifies his behavior I'd probably re-consider.
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As of right now my only lynching options would be Bullish, waterphoenix and VTNL. We have another day tofigure out options, but right now this is where I am at.
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@Speedrace
10 Bullish - Null
I thought you agreed that his logic seemed contrived earlier; What changed?
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