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@WaterPhoenix
ok ya but that was cause i thought inno child was an anti town role which it apparently isn't so...
This is a perplexing take, that you would think innocent child could be anti town. That said, based on your play in MCU weapons, I almost expect this from you lol.
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@drafterman
@Bullish
@LikeMagic
Let's straighten up the narrative here one more time. That1 wasn't actually looking for 3rd parties. She mused that if magic was a jester then it was a genius move, but in the same post said it was unlikely that she actually was jester.
This all lends to my point that shows how contrived the logic was that bullish is using. The only person to lend credence to that1user being jester, was waterphoenix.
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@LikeMagic
I was not saying that town should not be suspicious of TP, I was saying we should be weary of and look close at someone who randomly raises baseless game mechanic concerns, as same is often used as a tactic to cause confusion and/or create random suspicion on townies. I do not know if Bullish's thoughts were in line with mine, but I too was suspect of That1 when they randomly brought this up, especially having contributed almost nothing outside of this random comment in the game at that point and for awhile after.
She said there was potential for you to be jester, but in the same post said it was unlikely. Waterphoenix actually bought into the theory that you were jester more than she did.
I agree that That1 is suspicious, but also keep in mind that scum has fake claims. They could all have them or some. Unclear from the OP how many or in what combination, but the OP does imply that theme analysis would be foolhardy.
The OP definitely doesn't imply theme analysis is foolhardy, it specifically says " I also gave scum options of fake character + role claims in this game, but you are welcome to focus on theme analysis if you wish". Danielle is a pretty big advocate of mods giving fake claims. Also not sure this means that we can't use any theme analysis, because in a 12 player game there is probably either 3 mafia, or 2 and 1 third bases on common balance practices for 12 player games. The option of role could also mean mafia had to choose between a fake claim or a role claim, which is something else mods commonly do.
That said, you may be right here because she made a pretty compelling post in MCU weapons endgame about how people tend to get too caught up in theme analysis and how it hurts the town: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5288-mcu-tools-endgame?page=2&post_number=26
The reason I was suspicious of that1 is that it looked like she was setting herself up for a soft claim from a nightmare before christmas, and I think it's obvious at this point based on my PFP that I am Jack Skellington. I was wondering if maybe she didn't pick up on that when she said that. What do you think of her nightmare before christmas post? Am I looking too much into that?
It is notable that White has disappeared likely hoping any heat on him will die down. He dropped one quick rebuttal and is now probably sitting back and waiting until it's safer for him to come back in.
No offense, but in general I find this a bad argument. I find it extremely frustrating when it is used on me too. I play this mostly on downtime at work, and sometimes I get a work call that can keep me busy for several hours and I've come back to see people say "TUF randomly got quiet here thats sus" when there was nothing more I'd have rather been doing that replying to posts in the game lol. That said, whiteflame always answers people in the past, I have no reason to think he is dodging you here because of a slight delay. Also if he is an east coaster it's probably pretty late there, and his availability might not be the same as yours for late hours.
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@Bullish
I don't even scum read u that hard.Now that I think about it, Lunatic is the one who manipulated you into thinking I'm somehow hard scum reading you, which is sus af. I have at least 2 ppl I'd rather push than you.
I didn't manipulate anyone, she bandwagoned me because she thought I was defending her. Which I am not, I am am scum reading faulty logic, which happens to make her think by proxy that I town read her. I even called her out when she said you were going after me which until this point you hadn't.
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@Bullish
you drafter come here and tell Lunatic that TP hunting is a scum tell.
While I am sure drafter would love to jump on an oppertunity to disagree with me, i'd probably find any argument concerning SOP behaviors convincing. If you could find instances where that1 specifically has done this as scum, i'd probably buy that more.
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@That1User
Bc Bullish was painting me as a spooky villain, it's Christmas mafia, so I went with Nightmare Before Christmas, think your avi primed me too
Hmm...
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@That1User
I wish I was
Can you explain the joke about why you said nightmare before christmas?
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@That1User
Please answer. Are you Nightmare before christmas?
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@LikeMagic
70% was generous. It's def more than that. Not just using TP. They's claim, oh but we should be cautious because it could be X mechanic. In nearly every live mafia game I played Mike, Max, Bullish or someone else as scum conjured up some random theory for why a townie's claim should be suspect. They would plant the seed early, subtly, just incase it was narrowed down and they needed a lynch of said person later and needed to justify it. They'd then generally drop it, then only revive it at the end and be like "OH. EM. GEE., so and so is X, you got us dude"
Again, this doesn't feel like objective analysis that scum target third parties more than town should. That said I can agree to dis-agree with you here. One point I might make, is that that1 is a pretty nooby mafia player. The one game she played in as scum, she messed up pretty hard in her claim. Every other game she's played in, she's been mislynched for bad logic. For example she was mislynched for not understanding out miller worked and phrasing herself as a "Hidden miller" when she got an investigative result on her showing she was guilty. She was mislynched in the last game for logical flaws as well, as town.
In one of the like 4 games she played in, we lost to two third parties, so there is basis for her to be weary of third parties.
Again I am not town clearing her here, I actually think she might have scum slipped and I am waiting for her to answer me before deciding, I am just making this point to offer a different outlook on why she might be suspicious of a third party, as opposed to using SOP style logic that faultily suggests town rarely have reason to suspect someone of being third party.
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@LikeMagic
Your basis for suspecting Bullish is silly. Do you know how many games i have been in where scum said, in response to a valid role claim of an otherwise non suspicious townie, "oh but could be X twist to the role, or could be TP, or could be totally random game mechanic," just to undermine the townread in hopes of a mislynch. So someone randomly without basis saying could be TP is something that should be looked at suspiciously. You and Bullish are just two big personalities, whom by your nature feel the need to define yourselves as in opposition to the other. So you're just doing scum a favor (ignoring scummy behavior) and cluttering the DP with your battle while distracting from legitimate leads. I am rarely confident in my reads, I am confident in this one, and I am going to continue to put all my cards out with my reads, since I will be killed early and you will have my reads as a townie as my only contribution after my death.
First of all, you are dismissing my entire behavioral read on bullish as tunneling him for the 3rd party thing. That just happens to be the thing he decided to respond to. He dismissed the rest of my behavioral reads as "BS" without making a point. I also attacked several weak contrived seeming investigative posts that look like he was trying to appear pro town with little follow up.
Second, you keep saying you've seen this many times before without actually citing instances where you have. You are acting like scum target 3rd parties more than townies is an objective fact. I am sure you can find an instance or two where this is correct, while ignoring many other instances where town also target 3rd parties.
Third, I find it increasingly frustrating that you are acting as if your read on whiteflame is more substantial than my read on bullish because you decided that it was. Especially considering your lack of experience playing with whiteflame, where I have played in literally every forum game he's been in. I am not town clearing him, but I think the case on whiteflame is particularly weak. Before you even pointed out the "hypocrital point" (which upon reading whiteflames response no logner feels hypocritical) I pointed out that whiteflame commonly behaves the way he is now as town. I don't think it dismisses him from being scum entirely, but seeing as you yourself admitted to not having played with him before, I'd think you would take my point with a grain of salt.
Lastly, I am not arguing with bullish simply for the sake of arguing, nor am I trying to distract the day phase for pride or being right. If that's what you think I am doing, you are wrong. I find bullish genuinely scummy, and will continue dialogue with him until his answers click with me in a way that I feel makes him not a priority.
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@Bullish
Yes town CAN hunt for TP but as I just explained scum have more incentive to. I pushed airmax as TP harder than anyone else. Scumtells don't have to pin someone as scum to be useful. This is also why I'm pushing Water cause his scum slip is a lot more serious.
I don't agree that scum have more incentive to hunt for 3rd parties at all. I've refuted your points as to why. As scum in the star wars game, you were pushing for the easiest mislynch target because you don't know what roles town does or doesn't have. Mafia will tend to jump on a scummy claim to push a mislynch, but it could have just as easily been town for all you knew at the time.
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@That1User
Looks like Bullish is doing a scattershot approach, going after me, you, and Water all at once, erratic af. If Bullish is scum then we have a valueable scum catch
To be fair, bullish didn't go after me, just responded to my FOS on him. Also can you answer about whether or not you were soft claiming a nightmare before christmas?
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@LikeMagic
I agree with Bullish that bringing up TP's can be a scum tactic. Essentially, bringing up any baseless game mechanic is a scum strategy for distracting the town and throwing suspicion on a townie that otherwise appears town (because they are genuinely hunting scum). I cannot believe we are spending this much time on this comment, which is commenting on a scum tactic I have seen used in something like 70% or more of games I have played.
I somehow doubt this 70% statistic you probably pulled out of your @ss is true. That said, I am not saying that it can't be a scum tell for some, but assuming townies have no incentive to be wary of third parties, is why we had 2 very recent third party wins. I can understand someone being wary in light of that. Also the crux of his argument is that it's used when you can't find a good reason to push a mislynch on someone who reads town, and this is early dp1. This is probably the best point for scum to push a mislynch on just about anyone that's not oro.
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@LikeMagic
*eye roll*
I mean you are doing the same thing with whiteflame. His answer seems satisfactory to me, but you don't think so. You have a different lead then me, sorry. We all see the game through a different lens sometimes common ground between townies is rare until it's crunchtime and a phase is ending.
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@That1User
Ooo spooky I must be the NIghtmare Before Christmas!
Is this a soft claim? If not I really don't get the reference here.
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@LikeMagic
You both need to focus. It is in fact possible that all three of them are scum. Do not clutter the DP with a flamewar. You're both big brain and if you're both town, then we are going to win this game. I think the scummiest player behaviorally is White and his lynch gives us info on Bullish's affiliation. Let's lynch white.
I am focused, my bigger scum read is on bullish atm, so I want to her his answers. If they end up being satisfactory I will change the subject to someone else. I'd like to hear white's response, I don't think the hypocrisy argument was big enough to justify his lynch yet.
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@Bullish
How do you not know about this, hunting for 3rd parties is classic classic scum tell that goes all the way back. When you're scum and you can't fake a scum read on town and you don't want to scum read a buddy, you try to hunt for TPs because it looks genuine.
I've never heard of this as a classic scum tell before. I definitely don't see it as an SOP thing either, townies have reason to be paranoid of third parties as well. Hell, we've had two very recent 3rd party wins between drafters game and pie's game. Also it's early DP1, scum have no reason not to be able to mislynch anyone but the innocent townie...
Last friday's Star Wars mafia I was harping on Airmax for his PGO + Jango fett claim the whole game as probably TP. And guess what I was scum that game.
I was town that game, and I am pretty sure I was the first person to mention that airmax was probably 3rd party that game. So moot point.
And look, JUST as I make this post that1 is talking about TPs again!
That kind of hurts your point more though.
1. If you are publiclly discussing that hunting 3rd parties is a scum tell, and she continues to hunt for 3rd parties, she's obviously not worried about being scum read, which indicates that is more likely a genuine town sticking with her reads.
2. Again if this is such a scum tell why aren't you pushing her harder for it and focusing on water?
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@Bullish
It was like 100 posts into DP1, who's reads aren't piss poor? I asked white some questions and found his response satisfactory. If I'm gonna tunnel anyone now it's water.
I didn't say reads, I said leads. On page 5 you come off as trying to hard to sell yourself as a master investigator, with little to no follow through. The statements about that1 theorizing about 3rd parties meaning she is scummy, without substantiating it or clarifying whether it was a joke. If that1 mentioning a 3rd means she is scum, why water over her?
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@whiteflame
@LikeMagic
What's your deal. First you want Supa's claim, and say you were willing to jump on any bandwagon to get more claims (though lots of claims were already out for scum to see). your defense of this tactic is "not playing passively?" Then when I push back on you a little more with that strategy you complete 180, are in "perfect agreement" and VTNL, the epitome of passivity.
Magic makes a good point here, I would like to see whiteflame respond here.
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@LikeMagic
I think one of Whiteflam or Bullish is likely scum, but not both. White because he's contributing regularly in a non-contributory way. It feels forced, like he's playing narrator without actually hunting scum. He echos obvious observations or statements and anything remotely novel he says he seems willing to backdown from immediately as almost a gut reaction to realizing he's drawn attention to himself. I have never played with White before, so this is based on no prior information. Conversely, if White is town, I think Bullish is scum because he jumped on White so fast and almost came across like he saw White as an easy target.
I would say your general analysis of whiteflame is correct, however he does play similarly in just about every game he has played in. Mikal was pretty frustrated trying to read him in MCU weapons mafia and pretty much highlighted what you said as the same reason. However whiteflame was town in that game. Whiteflame so far as I know, has only been scum in forum mafia once, in my The Stand mafia. I think behaviorally he played pretty similarly to this meta but was caught by scum results. He further implicated himself as scum by making a pretty crazy role claim of seer, which no townie would do. So that's the only way I know how to read whiteflame as scummy, is if he cracks easily under pressure like that. Though even then I doubt he would make that mistake again as scum.
I think as the game progresses there will be more things to read into his behavior. He can get aggressive as town when he thinks he is right, as evidenced in the last game (though not as aggressive as I would have liked, as he didn't really try to convince other townies so much as try to convince the person he was scum reading). If Whiteflame continues to play indecisively I will probably scum read him as well.
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I struggle with bullish because in south park mafia i remember him leading this wild goose chase of a lyn h on drafter based on a behavior from a game of his from years ago on DDO. Bullish was extremely cocky and confident leading that lynch. Similarly in live mafia he tends to get on some lynch trains with pretty insubstantial logic, and he tends to tunnel it and not listen to reason.
He will be hard to read on this one for sure due to bad logic, however the perception of being an open minded investigator here doesn't follow his town meta in live mafia of sticking to one thing and tunneling it so I am actually pretty sus of bullish here.
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If whiteflame was publicly guessing at speeds role tried saying that he thought he was a power role or soemthing, that would be different. This was more theoretical discussion in defense of speed not being a christmas character in the off chance he was joking. I don't see an incentive for mafia to get rid of a potential mislynch by defending someone.
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@Bullish
That1 is sus for bring up jester. Bringing up 3rd parties is a classic scum tell.
Is this a joke? If not explain please.
whiteflame's words sound very sus
Based on him answering supa's already answered question in regards to my initial game comments? Or some other reason you are not wanting to get into for some reason? Generally if you scum read someone, it's followed up by an explanation of why you scum read them, or at the very least explaining it as a gut tell.
did u end up getting food with Mikal or nah / would ur wife approve
Didn't you just vote pie for fluff posting?
Why would u ask if speed softclaimed? If he wanted town to know he softclaimed he'd tell us. Otherwise you're either 1) letting mafia know Speed softclaimed, or 2) ur sucm trying to fish for a claim with no pressure.
Alternatively, wouldn't scum have more of an incentive to be quiet about having picked up on a soft claim so as not to alert protective roles if they sought to eliminate said power role? Shouldn't this read as more town?
Bullish feels pretty contrived to me atm.
vtl bullish.
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Im struggling to decide whether I feel like bullish thinks his line of investigatitve questioning is contrived to look pro town, or if he actually is town and thinking he's got leads with piss poor reasoning. Hmm..
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@Vader
I don't have a problem claiming and will do so right now, I am Santa Clause.
Can you confirm that the "E" is at the end of your character claim? Pretty sure Clause with an E indicates the Tim Allen movie.
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@LikeMagic
Upon double checking, it seems you claimed it in your second post. I was under the impression for some reason it was 3 or 4 posts in, so I will drop that particular point.
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@Vader
Just curious about why you are asking about tailors and stuff in game? Asking because there was no implication of anything and it seemed kinda weird it was the first thing you said. Just curious though
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@LikeMagic
sucks to come back to mafia and have a role that pretty much means instant death. This makes me certain the roles were randomly assigned, since I am certain danielle would not do that to me.
I am more suspect of the claim itself, than I am worried about policy lynching you as town. The reason you mentioned is one, it would rely on a little bit of mod psyche to sell, but you pre-empting the argument that danielle had to have randomized gives credence to the theory that you pre-empted the argument. It's rare to see you in forum mafia lately, and there's been a general distaste towards hated townies as they've been used at least 3 times in recent forum games, and in live mafia games. Danielle could have randomized I suppose, but I feel like even mods who randomize will sometimes make exceptions. Killing off a player who rarely plays with a role like that seems like one of those situations I could see danielle changing things up.
Another reason I suspect the claim is that I don't remember danielle using hated townie in any of her recent games on DART or in live mafia. From a balance perspective it's not a role I see her using though it's not impossible, and I can see a character that drafter hinted at fitting that role really well, so maybe she could have made an exception. I still grant you that it is a good anti town utility counter balance to the innocent townie as well.
All this to say, if I were to be on board lynching you it would be for behavioral reasons and for suspecting your claim, and I agree policy lynching hated's is not the best option.
I know you mentioned you were hated early on, but it wasn't exactly your first post either, were you debating on whether to claim it or not or did you momentarily forget that was an SOP type claim?
I never said diverting. I said it was an odd digression.
Digression: "a temporary departure from the main subject in speech or writing."
Again, there was no discussion up until this point.
It was. There was absolutely no basis to think such a role existed. It was random and worth highlighting for future reference.
It's not random; I thought it was odd that she went out of her way to specifically say there isn't a tailor. If I were a mafia tailor that could mess with OP's that's the kind of thing I would want to put in an OP. That and the dp1 innocent townie thing had me finding that was a wierd combo, as well as she basically copy and pasted my OP from the stand mafia. I thought it was mafia trying to play games or something.
Regardless, I kind of tricked danielle into mod confirming this isn't the case, so it's irrelevant now.
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hitting the hay early tonight, I'll check back tomorrow afternoon.
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@LikeMagic
Where did ya go?
Was expecting a follow up to the point you made about me "Diverting" the game when no one was on. Starting to feel like that line of investigation was contrived.
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@LikeMagic
I think my role is an SOP, but I am unsure. Erring on the side of it being one, I am hated. I disagree with my character being hated since they are an x-mas fav. of mine, but alas Danielle must have bad taste.
I guess that's an anti-town role to counter balance the innocent child. Depending on if we get a lot of anti town roles claimed or not, I buy it for balance purposes. The obvious statement here is that the longer the game goes on and you aren't killed, the more likely it is we don't make it to lylo since hypothetically scum could insta hammer you.
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@oromagi
So you recommend the series? I haven't found a new fantasy series that I liked for a long time. I didn't really the Game of Thrones, even, though I eventually got into the TV series. I hear Hulu is working on a TV series.
Not sure if you like to read fiction, but the Stormlight archives is one of the best Fantasy series I've ever read. Way better than GOT.
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@LikeMagic
This whole OP thing seems like an odd digression.
Digression from what? There had been no discussion at that point. Just voicing a theory.
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@LikeMagic
I was not playing live mafia because of work (no longer an issue), and have continued to not play because I damages my vocal cord and have to rest my voice maximum extent to avoid surgery. So, short answer I will be participating normal.
Awesome, hope to see you in live games again soon. Sorry about your vocal chords :/
I think we should probably vote for speed for full claim, since everyone seems so reluctant to lynch him all the time and therefore gets away with murder as scum.
I am not sure I have got the vibe people are reluctant to lynch him, I would easily push him for a lynch if he did something I suspect. If you are referring to the last game, the context I think it was justified he didn't claim. Mikal had pushed him to claim because he thought he was "typing" on discord, and refused to believe it was a glitch. Speed screamed town to me there, and he was actually town. I wouldn't have claimed if I were him in that circumstance either.
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@oromagi
Theme is XMAS 2020 so I assume there are some contemporary references in the character list. Speed is likely Mitch McConnell, Krampus, or Coronavirus.
Mine is more 90's vibes, not sure what role 2020 has in the theme.
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@Speedrace
And Chris
I never got the impression that misterchris was super inactive, other than stormlight, but that game had 5 day phases in the span of 2 days.
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@LikeMagic
Glad to see you playing again. I heard your availability is limited for live mafia, will this limited availability be effecting this game as well, or should I expect a decent amount of activity from you this game?
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@Danielle
Sounds good, I'll dismiss the theory that someone can tamper with the OP then. If oromagi bamboozles us all in the end, I will blame bastard modding lol.
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@WaterPhoenix
One thing to remember, is that the day phase is only 48 hours instead of 72. Given this, I think I would like to see an increase effort from waterphoenix this game, as I know he is probably most prone to inactivity in the current group.
@ water.
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@whiteflame
Cool, got an innocent child in oromagi. Hopefully he'll be pretty active in discussions. Also, good to know there's no tailor.
Still slightly worried mafia may have some OP tampering role, but the more I think about that, the more I think it's probably silly.
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@Danielle
I don't want 11 other PMs asking me so I will reiterate there is no Tailor or ability to Tailor a role in this game :)
Wait... "A role". Is there an ability that can tamper with OP's?
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Okay cool. I was suspicious because the OP randomly focused on there not being a Tailor, plus the OP was copy and pasted from my stormlight archive OP, so I thought mafia had some OP messing type of tailor since it was changed slightly in certain areas lol.
Let's cross that conspiracy off the list.
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@Danielle
Yall will think im silly for asking this but...
@Danielle
Despite what the OP says, Is there a tailor is in this game?
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@Danielle
I forgot to say we killed you cuz I assumed you saw my mafia PM on Discord when I shared my screen :P
I did not see that lol. I just saw the one I sent you and was too worried about other people seeing it to notice if there was another one lol.
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@Barney
I feel good that I was right about two out of three in my scum pile... however, had things continued I would have been pushing a lynch on pie.
Yeah I probably would have been convinced to lynch pie too lol.
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@Barney
What did he do to get modkilled anyway?
Copy and pasted his role pm
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