Total posts: 10,910
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@SirAnonymous
Wasn't the new testament basically God correcting the Bible?No.
Christian theologians agree that the New Testament has a single and consistent theological focus on the salvific nature of Christ, but the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament consists of several different theologies. Some of these complement each other, while others are contradictory, even within the same book
Just add centuries of people doing it and using their own verbiage, and you end up with over 20 versions of the Bible as is.Not really. Even the copies of the Bible that were made hundreds of years and thousands of miles apart are still overwhelmingly similar.
Similar, yeah that's a scary word to devote beliefs behind lol.
I don't think I disagree with this. The point I was making was simply that the Bible was passed down accurately.
A big part of the argument I am making is also to point out how silly it is to take written text by humans seriously over the word of an actual god, so I feel like the argument was relevent.
For good reason. To support the Loch Ness monster, Bigfoot, and aliens, you have to squint really hard at some low-quality pictures. To support the helicopter claim, you have to squint really hard at a verse from Revelation.
Or you have to believe a story in a book, versus hundreds of stories of people claiming to see the same thing. Either way, they are unprovable stories. At least Nessie's got some probably well edited video footage going for him.
It's a human interpretation of God's word, not actual God's word though.I think the originals were God's actual Word and that we can be confident that what we have to day is very close to those originals. However, the human interpretation of it can definitely be flawed.
Or humans copying down what they say God said. I literally meant human interpretation in this case. The bible as a whole makes no claim for divine authorship lol
Religions and people in them are subject to and influenced by society. However, their religious texts still say what they say. Interpretation doesn't change that. That's true of any written text. People can interpret text however they like, but it will still say what it says.
My point is that with over 4000 different interpretation of what it says out there, God definitely chose to be as vague and open to interpretation as possible for some reason. Interesting something so divine couldn't be a little clearer or decide to elaborate literally at any point, to prevent his devout followers from sinning in an attempt to please him.
No matter how the person interpreted the Koran that Mohammed wrote (well, dictated), it wouldn't change the fact that the Koran doesn't endorse forcing people to abandon Islam under pain of death. The same is true of God and the Bible.
What I said above applies here also. Why is it more likely this vague, open-to-interpretation book is telling the truth about morals more than the quran? If people are committing so many attrocities in the name of it, the book might bear some responsibility. Now you could spin that and say "Stephen King doesn't bear responsibility for the school shooting inspired by his book 'Rage' though" but King can answer for himself, and has. He even removed the book from publication afterwards, even though he agrees that responsibility for interpretation lies on the doer. Like King. God can come out and clarify at any point what his intentions were assuming he's not dead, and actually exists. That he would allow people to carry these deeds out in his name suggests he supports it, or more likely, doesn't even exist. Actually that's not fair to non-christian theists, but it very much demonstrates that the Christian God is less likely to exist.
I don't think you mentioned the proof earlier. If there was undeniable proof that the voice talking to me was God, and the voice told me that some things in the Bible were wrong, I might believe it.
I guess I assumed that by seeing and hearing God, you would have proof, and you weren't just a meth head thinking it was your dealer who is God or something lol
Or I might go into a mental crisis because everything I believe just got flushed down the toilet and the rug was pulled out from under my feet.
I was lucky to get out of it at a young age, but my dad was 50 when he left the mormon church, and he felt this way for a while. Imagine spending all those years paying the church 10% of all your income in taxes, just to finally come to the conclusion it's all balogne? But he got over it just fine. I am sure most people would be a bit surprised to have their life long beliefs contradicted, but it wouldn't be the end of the world.
It would also depend on what the voice was saying. If it could prove it was God and it told me that there were some errors in the Bible, I'd believe it. But if it could prove it was God and it told me to murder someone, I honestly don't think I would respond rationally at that point.
I am sure Abraham felt the same way when God commanded him to kill Isaac. God must have been the original creator of "Punk'd" before Ashton Kutcher took over lol.
I'd probably deny it in spite of what my mind told me. I don't even want to contemplate what would happen if I did respond rationally. But as I told theweakeredge, I don't think that scenario is actually possible.
Yeah, God probably wouldn't actually show up. Not because he isn't able to, if he is omnipotent he could do it right now. It's more likely because he doesn't actually exist unfortunately.
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@That1User
Why? Why does Intel flipping town get these clears besides Water?
He explains it in the very post you qouted!
Let me break it down in a simpler way:
The supa lynch was big, but kind of unexpected and very lucky for town. We can analyze certain things from the wagons before scum thought supa was ever at risk. Early in the phase the two bigger mislynch wagons were intelligence, and ayya. Knowing supa was scum gives us a lot to deter from scums motivations in that phase.
Intelligence was not an optimal lynch for supa, who was scum, so we can deduce intel was likely scum if supa was proposing the next bigger wagon at the time instead of just taking the freebie mislynch in intel.
Water is town for reasons I won't get into but finally became obvious to me, bear was saying ayyu was a strong town read and arguing it heavily with supa, which is major town points. I actually wouldn't throw sir in the way he did, but im assuming his perspective was sir called out the claims inconsistency ultiamtely got the lynch (though at that point scum would probably be more inclined to bus). I led the lynch and was one of the major defenders of ayya way earlier.
If intelligence is scum, and scum thought they were losing either a godfather or roleblocker, it makes more sense to go with the godfather in that circumstance. Danielle was on the intel wagon and pretty early. She also defended ayya kind of early too. If intel is scum she is likely town. If intel is town she had motive to lead the mislynch.
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Unofficial Vote Count:
Intelligence - (5/5) - That1User, Water, speed, crocodile, lunatic
SirAnonymous - (1/5) - Danielle
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@SirAnonymous
dont worry hes town.
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I agree water is airtight town. im dumb for not seeing it before.
vtl intel
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I know intell could just be lazy or not putting thought into it. But as ayya mentioned, this lynch tells us a lot from wagon behavior in the first day phase.
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Trying to think if their is anything else i wanna get out before the night phase goes on for another year
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For investigators, if you care:
Id target between sir, danielle, water and speed tonight.
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@SirAnonymous
The thing thats selling me on him is that he seems to have given up and is putting no effort into defending himself. Also the reason for his night action makes like no sense from a town jailer perspective.
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Unvote.
Anything else need to be said? I'll give it 20 minutes then ill hammer unless people wanna continue discussion.
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@Speedrace
A little defensive there, he didn't say you were a scum read, just asked you a question.
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@SirAnonymous
I agree. Humans are definitely capable of being wrong, even when they are being honest. They are also capable of misinterpreting what they see. What makes the Bible different is that God was inspiring the Biblical writers. He ensured that what they wrote would be accurate.
Wasn't the new testament basically God correcting the Bible?
Telephone and text are different. If I have 25 people copy something in text, it will turn out more accurate than if those same people communicated it verbally. It definitely won't be perfect, but it will still be better.
Just add centuries of people doing it and using their own verbiage, and you end up with over 20 versions of the Bible as is.
Actually, it only has to go through one translation from copies that were only passed down a few hundred years. That's the advantage of having copies in the original languages that are relatively early. Now, that still sounds bad, but that's where science comes into it. The Bible isn't the only ancient book that's survived. Scholars can look at all the different copies and see what they have in common. If 50 copies say X and only 3 copies say Y, the 50 are probably correct, all else being equal. However, if those 50 copies are all from the same place and time, but the 3 copies are from different places from earlier times, the 3 copies would be preferred because the 50 likely share the same error. It gets pretty involved. The point is that the more copies you have from many different places as close to the time of the original writing as possible, the better. In that respect, the Bible is far and away the most reliable ancient document. To put that in numbers, the NT has 20,000 usable copies (most don't have the whole thing) and the OT 5000 (iirc). The next best is Homer's Iliad at 600. In short, if we can't trust the copies of the Bible we have today to be accurate to the originals, then we may as well toss the entirety of ancient literature.
The difference between the bible and every other piece of ancient literature is how much we treat the information in all literature as fact. Information on politics, social structures, mythology, etc is preserved because it's history. We can learn from it, but we also understand the literature is written by humans, and scholars don't take every piece of information as fact the way Christians do with the Bible. You can cross apply that to basically any religion that regards ancient texts the same way.
There's a fundamental difference between that book and the Bible: the Bible claims to be true, whereas that book claims to be fiction. Now, claiming to be true isn't evidence that it is true; however, if something admits to being false, then we can eliminate it without a second thought (unless you're Snopes fact-checking the Babylon Bee). If it claims to be true, then we have to analyze whether it is true (which is a whole other, much longer discussion).
I had expected this argument; So it claims to be true and you believe it to be true. I don't know why you specifically believe it to be true, but from my talks with other Christians I've heard argument like how certain things have been found that are historically accurate in the Bible, as well evidence of other events happening, etc. Because some of the major events may have happened doesn't mean the stuff involving magic and god demontrating his powers is correct though. Finding some truth in something =/= everything being true. You can use this logic with any conspiracy theory; You take a few things that happened, seemed wierd and don't make sense, and then form a grand conclusion from it. It's why Alex Jones is so popular despite making pretty out there claims. You take a little bit of truth and make a grand conclusion from it.
Alien conspiracies are the same for me; There is a lot of evidence to suggest intelligent life, but nothing so concrete and solid. People's who supposedly have no idea of who each other are can collaberate stories on finding and seeing technology that exceeds human technological standards near area 51, and near california. Bob Lazar's stories also match up with these stories. Does this mean aliens exist? I am sure you would say no. I also would say that.
I've heard christians make the argument that the bible predicted we would one day have helicopters because of a passage that mentions the coming of loud locust like machines. I have a hard time taking arguments like that completely seriously for the same reasons I do Lochness, or Bigfoot, or aliens.
Because I am taking the Word of God instead. I'm not trying to be snarky with that, but that's why. I have something that I'm sure is God's Word. If something were to look and feel like God, but said things that contradicted what I know God has said, then I know it's not really God.
It's a human interpretation of God's word, not actual God's word though. It's why many religions also find themselves changing belief structures towards race, and sexual preference as society progresses. "Oh maybe we just mis-understood what this passage meant, I guess this is okay now". If God's written word were so omnipotent and important, you'd think he's be a bit more transparent, seeing as many religious attrocities are often commited in the name of what people think God's word is.
I can't fathom then, how someone would ignore a God hypothetically proving himself to exist, and then correcting the things in said Bible.
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@SirAnonymous
Where you at cuh
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@Ayyantu
Two questions:
Will someone die by visiting you?
And
Why is sir town confirmed?
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@ILikePie5
It’s not. Editing to nothing is the same thing as deleting. If you can’t edit what makes you think you can delete lol.
I definitely think it should be against the rules, I just thought your response to me meant you thought deleting was okay since it only emphasized editing.
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@ILikePie5
is deleting posts allowed by certain players and not others
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Posted in:
Current Mafia
ILikePie5 - The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Mafia (DP2)
Signups
In the Hopper
Mharman - Voting: Stage 1
drafterman - Paranoia
Speedrace
Lunatic- The Stand
SupaDudz - The Disastrous Life of Saiki
Bullish
BearMan- Third Parties Mafia/ Deathnote Part 1 Mafia
Danielle
On Hold
zaradi, Virtuoso, PressF4Respect, crocodile, RM
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unvote, vtl danielle
for speeds answer
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@Speedrace
If danielle deleted a post shes probably allowed to the same way supa can talk post death. Holy sh1t
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@SirAnonymous
Coming up with fake claims is hard huh
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@That1User
I usually town side as TP, btw. That said, I don't know what to do with your conspiracy theory, since my motives make the same sense as town who also wouldn't have known either were mafia.
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@Danielle
I assume that he brought up the possibility of a TP because I explicitly asked him about it in post # 100. But yeah this is why I hate TPs (cuz they can play pro town and still win most of the time, making them hard to detect).
I brought up the subject of the TP in post 69 btw.
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@Danielle
If it was 3-8 that only gives town 2 mislynches, and I don't even think they can no lynch, that's why I think it's a third if anything. Most mods try to give town at least 3 mislynches.
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@That1User
Can you unvote temporarily so he doesn't get quick hammered? That night phase was way too long, and we should use the phase a bit more. Also we are waiting for siranonymous's claim.
Intel is definitely the lynch, but there's no rush.
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@Danielle
Why do you think the game is over after an Intel lynch? (Assuming he's guilty) do you think there are only 2 scum in an 11 player game? Doubtful.
I am thinking its more likely a third party
I am pretty convinced intel is scum here, my main worry is for a non joint winning Third party here, but if that happens I guess we can just ignore the win con. Pie was going for 12 players, I think he planned on inclusion of a third party or 3 scum. 2-1-8 isn't neccesarily unbalanced though.
Could be another scum though. If so id guess sir or speed
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Vtl siranonymous for being hard to read and in my POE people of unconfirned
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unvote
probably a done deal after intel is lynched but no reason to rush when everyone hasn't posted. Especially since it takes mafia 50 years to post night actions.
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@Danielle
@BearMan
I'd like to hear from you to this phase
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@Crocodile
CurrentlyA Supa-Intel-Bear scum is pretty likely imo. (bear replaced obvi)
Bear was telling supa that ayyu was basically town confirmed, seeing how desperate supa was for that lynch makes bear look really good in hindsight. Though if intel is scum, this could be a bus to to make bear look good especially since Im sure bear will confirm he was blocked.
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Intel isn't even defending himself.
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I am pretty convinced intel is scum here, my main worry is for a non joint winning Third party here, but if that happens I guess we can just ignore the win con. Pie was going for 12 players, I think he planned on inclusion of a third party or 3 scum. 2-1-8 isn't neccesarily unbalanced though.
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Greyparrot was hard on intel. More than claiming a power role (grey always does this and survives multiple phases) he was a threat because he would have targetted intel with his role. Scum had extra incentive to kill him.
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Ya know what I don't see why we should make a mountain out of a molehill here, i'll concede on a few things. Supa was going all out on hoping for the Ayya lynch, I have to assume the other scum was on board.
This leaves out greyparrot who was on intel, danielle who multiples times defended ayyu who was supas mislynch, and bearman who said ayya was clearly town. This really might be as simple as that. Though I really don't want to write off sir or speed.
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oh yeah danielle is looking really good on post 175
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@Intelligence_06
Bear is a little controversial so I decide to do it on him and see what happens.
bruh
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Because I think you are scum forcing a mislynch. Granted you could be town and Water is scum, but from my reads you are scum
I guess this is the post ayya is referencing?
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Re-reading dp1 currently to find the posts ayya is talking about. While reading I notice: Supa interacts with intel calling him out on dismissing water as town for the joke, and intel never responds. Might suggest the dialogue was fakes.
Also noticed danielle defending ayya though the stance was an obvious one, she can get some brownie points there.
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@Intelligence_06
were you trying to block or protect bearman and why
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@Ayyantu
If he actually used that verbiage that he "knows" intel is a mislynch, then maybe I can buy it a bit more.
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@Ayyantu
Supa pushed me hard because he knew I was pushing a mislynch, and it's easy as scum to push townies who you KNOW are playing "anti-town."
I mean I can see that, but probably not with supa as much. Not calling him stupid or anything, but he's more of a straightforward thinker than an out of the box thinker. I'd say he's on a similar level to bearman, who when I made an alt account with Pattern, bearman as scum pushed me really hard and aggressively. It's easy to try and use "vet" status to push a lynch on a new player, regardless if the new player isn't playing like a new player. I can see it working the other way, more than anything. I have to weigh whether certain people would openly defend their scum buddy, and I don't think that's beyond supa.
Not saying you might not be right, but I think dismissing him as potential scum altogether from that is the wrong move.
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@SirAnonymous
I'll respond tomorrow btw, was about to post my response and got relieved from work before I can finish and it all got erased. Gonna focus on mafia and BDO for now
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@Ayyantu
I'm never voting Water, not even if investigated guilty. Just so you know.
Can you better explain what I am missing with water? My activity was shaky last phase I'll admit, didn't start playing til late.
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Ayyantucky- He's basically confirmed town at this point, unless that was a masterful bus by him and supa. I highly doubt that because supa wasn't the only one on the lynch, and he had a pretty decent wagon going. It was looking like an easy mislynch more than a bus.
Null could go either way on
2. Speedrace - Notorious for taking up all night to submit an action as scum but not town, keeping that in mind
3. SirAnonymous
Both of these were on board the supa wagon, though tbh at that point supa had fvcked himself with his claim. If there was a time to throw supa under the bus, it was definitely by the time they voted. I have a half baked theory scum was either inactive at the or a noob though, because they definitely would have tried to stop supa from claiming that. That would clear both of these individuals from bussing, and give them a town lean.
Likely to have held up the night phase because of scum:
1. That1User —> Replacing BearMan- The long night phase indicates mafia or a visiting
5. Danielle- Also could be implicated by the lengthy night phase as sometimes she forgets to check the site for several days
7. Crocodile- only jumped on the supa wagon after supa was already damned, the vote doesn't mean much in the way of helping him appear town.
8. Intelligence- Participated on the ayyu wagon, which implicates him
9. WaterPhoenix- Huge part of the Ayyu wagon which implicates him
I'd like claims from water and intelligence, and some participation from danielle this phase, though I am sure she is planning on it as she said in the sign ups.
vtl waterphoenix
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@Ayyantu
How is water in the pile?
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@Ayyantu
Luna, I don't think I'm who you think I am, btw.
The fact that you even kind of caught on to what I hinted though means your somebody though lol
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