Total posts: 10,910
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@skittlez09
a rb if done correctly can literally prevent night kills
You claiming your role un-provoked nullified most of its pro town utility.
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@oromagi
Lunatic and Danielle have not advised regarding wincon
No win con for me. Don't see why that would be different for scum though. You always press about win con statements has it ever resulted in you catching scum?
I am down with VTL'ing skittlez for false claim
Seems like an easy mislynch attempt lol.
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@Intelligence_06
Provide reasons then.
Your reaction to RVS was overtly defensive, especially for another person. It's likely you were trying to build town cred.
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@RationalMadman
If two people are arguing between themselves I see no reason for mod intervention. Drama is looked at as inherently bad here, and I don't think it is.
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@Barney
In cases without any reports filed, we are very unlikely to see it. Of course as seen with callout threads, if I happen to spot one, I'm not going to wait for someone else to file a report.
Unlikely to see it or not, why intervene at all if both users are handling themselves just fine?
That does not always work to dissuade the obsessed.
So? The "victim" or the person blocking doesn't have to read or care about anything the other person says.
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@Intelligence_06
Dis guy just used that someone else voted as a reason that they voted. Again, WHY did you vote SUPA?
VTL intelligence.
There, that better?
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@Vader
Yea fair enough with that statement. I guess you're right. I just really think he needs to stop outing his role. He's always doing it and we have the same sus and then the flip comes and he's town. I've read this story before. Hopefully he changes next game
He's a bit similar to greyparrot. Not sure what he gets out of the game.
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@Vader
So what is your exact reason for voting me again?
Danielle is probably on to something here!
I mean why would you tell that out loud? Now mafia are gonna either target him in the night or try to frame him. Kinda just exposed a strategy there lol
It's an obvious strategy since he outted his role. If he didn't out his role it wouldn't matter. The second mafia know theres a roleblocker it's pretty much anti town. Im dealing with the hand we were dealt due to skittlez claim.
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@Barney
If a person is handling themselves well enough I think in certain situations it's best to just let it defuse on it's own.Most of the time that works. Sadly, sometimes people are not handling themselves well enough without intervention. Even then, usually a very minor intervention curbs the troublesome behavior.
You mean in the case where one party reports the other? What about the case where no reports are made?
If a person is feeling harassed you can just direct them to the blocking featureEspecially when combined with a request to cease and desist, if everyone abided by such common courtesy, we might not need moderators. Sadly that doesn't always work. Some users outright respond to such with increased efforts directed to the person whom clearly expressed disinterest in continued contact. Hence why there even needs to be a rule in the CoC, when basic human decency should be enough.
The person can, ya know, continue to not respond to the other party lol.
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Town is dead because of the presidential debate. I got tired of the absolute BS going on.
Trump inerupting Biden and Biden not getting an extension is unfair
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@Speedrace
Oh y'all are together?
Me and Brit? Yeah she's my girlfriend
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@MisterChris
He acknowledges it's a bad idea right now. If we figure out he's using it anyway, that's enough evidence for me to vote him out.
Agreed!
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I am not worried about skittlez being scum for now also. The roleblocker may come in use later, but for now I am hoping he forfeits for a while.
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I got a new cat today, and it's a little scared. Me and Brit have been trying coax it out of it's hiding spot. I should be active today though.
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@oromagi
Do we actually have two women in a DART Mafia game? Is that a first? probably. Damn we really need more women on this site.
There was tons on DDO lol. Lovelife, royalpaladin, lickdafoot, insertnamehere, vi_veri, danielle, rosalie, hatstand, trekie, to name a few of the more active ones. All mafia players.
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@Barney
I've seen this line of reasoning a few times for various crimes... Harassment is defined by the actions, not just if it's successful in causing harm.
This is where I think discretion might be useful, tbh. If a person is handling themselves well enough I think in certain situations it's best to just let it defuse on it's own. The blocking feature seems pretty useful for that. I fundamentally think the blocking aspect is silly for a debate site, but since it's here, might as well make use of it. If a person is feeling harassed you can just direct them to the blocking feature instead of having to worry about which appropriate action to take with someone. Makes your job easier.
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That's how mikal dominated the leaderboards on DDO too.
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@skittlez09
I reccomend forfeiting your role every night. Town roleblockers that are outted can be used by scum to manipulate and frame other people. All they have to do is forfeit a night kill one, and it can potentially cause 2 mislynches, the person you roleblocked, and then you after when they flip innocent. Your best use to town will be as a vanilla.
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@Vader
tl;dr: hopefully more active than last game, but life comes ahead of mafia
Sounds good. Your inactivity worked to our favor as scum last game lol
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@ILikePie5
What part of not claiming till you’re pressured do you not understand?
It's probably best actually in this case that he was upfront quickly. I think if we pressured him dp2 or 3 and found that out it would likely be a mislynch.
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@ILikePie5
For the record I’ve never had a drop of alcohol before
Lol okay. Post 9 was just out there lol
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@ILikePie5
Vtl pie. He's drunk and likely to scum slip.
Pie who are your team mates?
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@drafterman
It might take a bit for the sour taste to fade. As far as the list, I've put it back up, but someone (not me) unstickied the forum post to it.
Understandable. And thankyou in regards to the list. I told ragnar he should probably un sticky the thread yesterday because I didnt think you were coming back. I'm sure he will re sticky it.
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@drafterman
It was my responding to you that was serving by my undoing. So the solution is quite obviously to stop responding to you, not "respond to you more." Besides, usually when someone openly says, "Oh, this thing I'm doing is making me look scum, so I guess I'll stop doing it" is something of a scum tell.
I was also saying that I ultimately didn't see a point to the debate, and people were also opining that our discussion was maddening. It seemed more or less objective that the discussion wouldn't accomplish anything so I don't think you would have been scum read for that. You were being scum read that game because of the eagerness to lynch thing, so I don't think people would have looked at you as scummy for not wanting to have further pro-longed discussion.
Yes, this pretty much hits the nail on the head. I don't think this issue is debatable. I do think I'm objectively right. And I am mad that the lack of people that are on that same page and see eye to eye with me on this.
If that's how you feel I don't think there's anything I can say to change your mind. Objective vs subjective standards will always be debatable.
And yet a mod creates a spite rule against me and there is pretty much crickets. I mean, actions speak louder than words. And yeah, I've seen that you've decided to give Speed the benefit of the doubt and refuse to believe that he created the rule to spite me, that's your prerogative. And it seems like Speed has this benefit of the doubt from everyone else that has bothered to weigh in. I'm pretty much the only one here defending my side of things while Speed gets overtly leading questions to give him an easy out of the situation.
Speed's intentions to spite you were wrong. I think he should have been given the benefit of the doubt though. Before this incident have you ever had an issue with him like this? Why would I jump to the conclusion that he wanted to be a douchebag? Me giving him the benefit of the doubt for not intentionally being a dick was just suggesting that maybe you didn't look at it from a different perspective. Turns out you were right, but I don't regret giving speed the benefit of the doubt.
If I didn't care what you had to say I wouldn't be responding to you, nor would I have unblocked you. Whatever happened in the game happened in the game.
Fair enough, I appreciate you responding to me.
Ok, fair, yes that is an extreme level of reaction. But for all this stuff about how I'm respected here, I feel like I'm standing here alone. The conversations are between everyone and me. I'm the one having to justify my position, my stance. I have to prove it and quibble over word choice. This is the perception I have with me on one side of the line and mostly everyone else on the other with Speed, with a few people straddling. So I feel like I have to compensate by going to the extreme because I feel that this is a lopsided conversation.
I mean yeah, you had a unique opinion on the topic. I felt similar with the RM thing though, because prima facie, who in their right mind would defend RM right? For me it wasn't about defending RM, it was more about bans in general, and his was just the most recent example.
You remember ADreamOfLiberty? The guy that was really into bestiality? He had an unpopular opinion that what he was advocating was correct. He could logically defend himself and actually made a few pretty good points, even if I do dis-agree with him. You are just defending a kind of un popular opinion, it doesn't mean all of your opinions are un-popular. And you were just proven right on the part about the spite thing, so thats not even really relevant to people not taking your side anymore. The only thing we have left to discuss is you leaving, which I still don't think you should.
At the very least, I think you should put the list back up because it is a very valuable tool and you put a lot of time and effort into it that shouldn't go to waste. And as I mentioned before, there's a lot of people who probably don't even know what's going on that would also be effected by the lack of the list.
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Okay I cede on the issue regarding speed trying to spite drafter then. As a mod I think personal issue with a player should be external to how you mod a game.
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@drafterman
At least that's something. That's a reaction.
You've got your reaction, you yourself said misterchris reached out to you for support. He is a good guy. People are asking you to stay on the site even as we discuss this. This is all proof that you are liked and cared about here. Everyone doesn't have to agree with you on a decisive issue for you to be respected though.
Because offenses of different levels of severity should be responded to with proportionate levels of reaction?
A boycott is pretty extreme level of reaction, that even the worse mods don't get. Mharman literally rage threw a game because he was pissed, and even he still doesn't get boycotted.
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@drafterman
That's sure a nice soft ball to lob him there. But even if Speed comes in response to that and takes the bait and explicitly says it wasn't done in spite, there just is no other reasonable interpretation of the rule given the conversation we were having.
This is an "everyone's out to get me" victim mentality. I am geuniely asking him, and if he admits that he was trying to spite you then I agree that it's messed up. I think you just mis-understood what he wrote, but I could be wrong, and I will cede if I am on this point.
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@drafterman
He's all but admitted it:
I'll wait for speed to answer here, but I think what he was saying with "fair enough" was "Yeah I agree that rules shouldn't be made to spite players" but I think he is dis-agreeing that he actually did that.
I can and I do fault him. If only because there is no reason for it to be a rule and also because he explicitly did it in response to me arguing with him.
There was an issue that you created in the game where to players couldn't interact with each other. This isn't something that commonly occurs, and was a rule adjusted on the fly. You didn't like that rule and left. No one can force you to play if you don't want to, but I don't think his intention was to spite you or to "get one up on you" or anything like that, it was so that we can move forward with the game. Mods have made up rules on the fly in the past, it's not unreasonable they would have to do that when a new issue occurs that hasn't happened in the past.
In the middle of the game that would have been counter productive and it got superceded by Speed's actions. Again, I just want to emphasize that Speed's is the greater offense here.
Why would it have been counter productive? I actually think you being up front with that would have avoided the whole issue. In fact if you would have just told me that you would block me if I continued to say stuff that pissed you off, I would have respected that and requested out myself.
Because I'm not going to support a community that doesn't support me. First, the only person that actually seemed to give a shit was MisterChris who contacted me to see how I was doing. Second, the only person to actually see that the Speed created spite rules and speak out against it (without having to be argued to do so) is oro. I am truly shocked and disheartened that nobody sees this for the objectionable behavior that I see it as.
You are acting as if the issue doesn't have two debatable sides here, and I think that's a little silly. You aren't objectively right about this, and your mad that not everyone messaged to you and catered to your belief? I can understand being frustrated about people not seeing eye to eye on you with this, but to insinuate that people don't give a sh1t about you because of this is really just wrong. You are very loved and respected in the community regardless if people agree with you on every topic or not.
I can use my recent interaction with the mods as an example here: I was pretty vocal about thinking the mods were wrong in regards to their decision about banning rationalmadman, someone who I don't even neccesarily like. I argued with them for a few days about it until ultimately they stopped responding and told me they were gonna do what they wanted to do regardless. My first impulse wasn't to say fvck everyone in the community then, I am leaving. I acknowledge that we don't see eye to eye on the issue but I ultimately was happy that they even listened to my appeal and talked to me about it. At the end of they day I know they are trying their best and it's impossible for them to get it right all the time. I don't think that they don't give a sh1t about me because they don't agree with me on this.
Same with you. I guarantee you that if you messaged most of the mafia community and asked you what they thought of you, they would have nothing but good things to say about you. Hell, I think it's safe to say that mafia wouldn't even exist on this website without your efforts to revive it, same with your noob game initiative on DDO. You've done more for the mafia community than anyone else, so why abandon all of that because a few people dis-agree with you on one thing? Also one 9 player game isn't the "whole mafia community". There's probably a lot of poeple who don't even know what happened, but are also being punished by you with you removing your guide and list that was a commonly used resource for both new and old players.
I doubt you care what I have to say, but I hope you take this advice with a grain of salt, if not now, maybe after calming down and reflecting: I really think you should re-consider leaving over this incident. You are well liked and respected here and have done great things for the community. If one person is making the game un fun for you, I am willing to take a break for a few games to let you play without worry of my "bickering ways" as oro calls them. I don't want to ruin your good time because of this. At the end of the day this doesn't have to be that serious unless we make it a serious thing.
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Sorry had an incident at work right as I got here, I am responding now.
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@Speedrace
Speed, when you say "fair enough" I take it you agree that a mod shouldn't make a rule to spite another player, but you are saying you didn't do that correct? I think drafterman mis-interpreted this post, but I want to hear it from the horses mouth.
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People quibbling over irrelevant word choice as if that's the crux of the issue. IT WAS A RULE CREATED TO SPITE A PLAYER IN THE GAME.This is 1000% unacceptable behavior for a mod and the reaction I would expect from the player base would be, at the very least, boycotting a mod that did such a thing, unapologetically and doesn't really seem to care that they engaged in such behavior.Why the fuck are people completely ignoring this point and instead quibbling about fucking grammar?!
Assuming you were objectively right here, and the mod did do something that was unnacceptable, I think you are over reacting to the way it should be handled. I don't boycott mods for doing something wrong, though I think in the heat of the moment I may have threatened to do so in the past. Supas south park game for example I reacted that way, yet I've played in two supa games since then. Mharman also messed up bad in a game on DDO. I actually still don't sign up for his games, but I don't think he should be boycotted. Mafia isn't that serious. Well multi-accounting for mafia I do take offense to, but that is so rare it doesn't matter.
We dis-agree about what constitutes as game talk, but even then you yourself are only saying I should be "reminded" so I think you agree that rules in mafia shouldn't be enforced with an iron fist. Why is speed an exception?
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I do.
If there is a reason for the rule than it's not arbitrary...
The issue isn't whether or not "not blocking people" should be a rule in mafia. The issue is whether mods, in the middle of the game (in the middle of a day phase, no less) should create rules directed at the behavior of a single person out of spite. If it was like that from the beginning of the game, I wouldn't have blocked you in the first place. If he decided to make it a rule in between phases for whatever reasons, well I can't say how I would have reacted. But it is still wholly different to having a disagreement with a mod, and the mod going, "fine, if you don't like it I'm making a new rule" that just happens to target something you've done in the game.
I don't think it was done just to spite you. And I agree it would have been better to state this at the beginning of the game, but I don't think you can fault speed for not specifying this as a rule, because I don't think this has ever happened in a mafia game before. I usually don't highlight rules that I don't forsee becoming an issue either, it's more likely he didn't assume this would even happen, because it's a little crazy that it did happen...
Point, is the general take away is that this is just a joke to be laughed off. And I am not Okay with that.
No one is laughing it off from what I can tell. I think people are genuinely dis-appointed that things went this way, myself included.
As far as you and me...Yes, you've said a thousand times you have no ill will. It's not about your will, it about how, for whatever reason, how you argue ticks me off. Whether it just happens to be that way or whether you do it intentionally, I realize is immaterial. Point is, engaging with you was hurting my game play. So rather than continue to be tempted to engage with you, I decided to block you as a deliberate strategy to try and rebuild credibility in the game.
Fair enough, but I think if you were up front about this from the get go people would be understanding of it. I mean blocking someone seems pretty serious, so it stands to reason that I said something that had personally offended you pretty badly.
As far as your comment in the mod discord, I can't see that as anything else but an intentional zing at me. After all, why go there?
It wasn't a zing. It was an "okay, I understand now, I am being ignored". What do you mean "Why go there"? You blocked me, I should have been asking "why go there"?
You already had existing lines of communication with the mod via your role PM and the mafia discord PM to ask questions. Yet you deliberately chose to use the discord you knew I was in, despite being quite on the record that you didn't like using the mod discord. You basically went out of your way to ask it there, rather than in your existing line of communications. Nor did you simple take it and leave it once you actually got the answer to your question, you had to make a directed comment about me. However petty or mild anyone judges this, it was still unnecessary and about a game in progress. It's not acceptable no matter which way you cut it.
I didn't choose the mod discord to call you out or make a fool out of you or whatever it is you think. I asked in that discord because there is more mods than speed, and I wanted a quick answer. I actually didn't even remember you were in the discord at the time. Also I don't dislike the mod discord, nor do I ever think I said that. My previous qualms you are referring to was having the discussion about RM's ban in the discord as opposed to the public forum, since most of the community seemed to be in the discord anyway.
You don't have to believe me, but this wasn't a conspiracy to draw a reaction out of you. I do like and respect you as a player and a person, and I am sorry that the way we clashed in that game made you want to block me. While I won't apologize for what I said, because I don't think I said anything objectively bad, I do respect boundaries in the same way someone doesn't want to talk about a subject that offends them or brings up painful memories. If I knew in advance that hashing an argument out with you like that would invoke that reaction I would have not signed up for the game.
So, yeah. Like I said. I am not going to play in a mafia community where this is even remotely acceptable and doesn't seem to bother anyone in the slightest.
It's a pity you feel that way, but it's your decision. If you don't want to be apart of the community that's one thing, but removing the role list seems kind of like you are trying to punish us for a dis-agreement. Why do that?
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@SirAnonymous
I agree that making a rule just to spite a particular player is wrong. However, I don't have access to the mod chat. I can't see what was said behind the scenes, so I have no information on which to make a judgment.
This was literally it. No deep conspiracy. I asked how a site function worked to see if I was being ignored or if my posts couldn't be seen.
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I don't think the rule is "arbitrary" based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
Mafia is a game that very much requires interaction, blocking and not responding people suspends that interaction and harms the integrity of the game. Even oro, the person you qouted, seems to agree with that, interesting you chose not to mention that part, and only the part that toots your own horn.
Also speed doesn't make up the whole mafia community anyway, so it is really just being petty, especially that you are removing your role list as well. That said, I don't harbor any ill will towards you and if me being in a game will stop you from playing, I will abstain from games you sign up for if you still decide you ever want to play.
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@Speedrace
You literally said you would request a replacement if I allowed him to direct snide remarks at you outside the game, to paraphrase
Yeah that is ridiculous that the stipulation was placed on you for the blame. I would have just replaced a player for threatening the mod like that in general lol. I don't think the comment was snide either, more like "Okay then, so I am purposefully being ignored, good to know. At least I know it isn't because he can't see my posts".
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@Barney
I would have hoped you flipping scum would have mitigated his frustration.
Maybe. I am guessing the main reason he left was because I asked in the mod discord how blocking works, and he wanted speed to take action on me for "outside game talk". I am not sure asking how a site function works is out side game talking, but I think he was offended the mod didn't take his side on that and punish me for it. That's my guess why he ulimately left.
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@Barney
No. I can't however deny that it does cause a slightly increased top of mind presence.One part of the gut feeling, came from the argument between you and Drafter, to which I estimated that one or the other was be more likely to be scum. Not perfect reasoning, but if not Drafter, then Lunatic.The threat to quit in DP2 felt inauthentic. But to be completely fair, at the end of DP2 I was utterly convinced Supa was scum.
Fair enough. Ironically I didn't even dis-agree with drafter that much. The argument was supposed to make me look authentic, since it was something we argued in the past. Also I was trying to set myelf up for a back up claim, and lynching the miller or the lovers dp1 wasn't ideal for that play. I actually don't mind day phases ending early as much as I did in the office mafia, the argument was mostly designed fo town cred to look consistent. That's why it's a shame that I offended drafterman so badly, because I do like and respect him a lot. I was actually pretty excited that he returned to mafia.
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@Barney
Oh, one small suggestion (this goes to anyone on any scum team): have your discord set to invisible most of the time.
Is that why you had a "gut" read on me dp1?
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He was bluffing
Figured. I guess my comment about not getting to use my role til the following night phase was kind of calling him on that bluff lol
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@oromagi
Were you bluffing watcher results last phase or did you really get to use your watch np2
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@oromagi
I wonder why drafter was permitted his?
Maybe because he changed his profile picture to a character that isn't his real character.
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@ILikePie5
This is what happens when you let miller’s live till the end
I think the bigger problem is people's general attitudes towards millers. They are basically a free innocent child. 90% of games have one, and they still get FOS'ed for some reason lol.
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@skittlez09
i find it hella funny too that even mafia thought my wagon was bs
Initially we were going to try to lynch the lovers in LYLO, but we changed our mind last minute because we decided we can use the lovers to our advantage. Supa scum read you from dp1 and intel was easy to convince.
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@Barney
I thought we'd have one more day due to the resurrection (yeah, I know, it depends on the order or operations)... Oh well.GG!
Lover kill brought it to 2 v2. There wasn't really a doctor.
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Fun game speed, a lot better balanced than the last two.
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