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I am Georgia, 3rd party lyncher because Gerogia is the leading state for lynches in America. I had to lynch either Idaho or California and be the first vote on the lynch. I've met my win condition and now win along whoever makes it to the end (yes I can joint win). Poor croc claimed Idaho first, so he was my victim. But I was hoping for a mass claim yesterday to see if California was a possibility, but no one seemed interested in the idea of it so whatevs.
Ya'll are welcome to use a lynch on me, or if not I'll help town. I've won so I am indifferent. As I've sated in the past I generally hate lynchers as I feel they are low effort, though I do give warren some props on changing the mechanics of this one to make it a little more challenging.
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@Vader
No, because 5/12 people still said they had a negative connotation. The part of 2 descriptions was wrong overall, but the negative connotation is still a possibility
Role PM structure analysis fails for this type of reason usually. You are taking judging it by two very big and vague varying concepts that can easily apply to roles in almost every game.
I also do believe your behavior is somewhat scummy. I felt like when responding to the McMuffin Idea, you were inherently trying to use strong words to bait a reaction out of me and cause town to turn against me, and it looks like you're doing the same thing here
Specifics?
Also do you normally doubt the CC'er in a CC situation, or is it just because you assume I am attempting something big brained? If so, I guess I'll take yours and speeds reads as a compliment, and not completely void of logic.
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@Vader
Egging me on for a reaction isn't helping your case. I still think you are scum
You were literally proven wrong, it's not egging anyone on lol. If you wanna be stubborn thats cool too.
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@Vader
Ehh okay. Well we know some have negative only. Lunatic's is a posititve. Mine has both positive and negative but based of that the negative, so that part of the McMuffin Idea doesn't applyI still think it's sus that he only has a positive
It can be hard to admit your wrong, I understand.
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@Speedrace
It's not mod psyching to literally take Warren at his word. But I've since said I could be wrong about what a bastard game entails.
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@Crocodile
Usually means the mod is kind of messing with the players somehow, intervening in ways that's normally frowned upon, or made a game really one sided.
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@Crocodile
So you legit don't have a role? Like not even vanilla?
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@MisterChris
RM will be getting banned temporarily due to numerous CoC violations, but RM is having a fit over it
The CoC violations ragnar pointed out seem either outdated or long enough ago that they shouldn't have any bearing on todays ban.
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RM is good at spotting suspicious activity and time investment, but he desires things to be absolutely strict. In short, I believe he would ban people constantly for things which do not even border on CoC violations.That said, I've had to take away the report button from a couple of users, and RM is not among them.
Confused as to how we got off the 1 moderator subject, I was asking if you dis-agreed with it lol. Kind of went on a tangent here.
If I recall correctly, Supa's ban was longer than it otherwise would have been, due to repeated warnings, and serving as discord mod (whatever title or non-title that has) so being held to a higher standard.
I distinctly remember supadudz complaining that he got no warning but maybe he told me wrong.
It's a weird one, as without the wake up call of moderation action, I doubt there would be said progress. At the same time, with that progress (particularly the apologies), the length now seems non-ideal.
Outside of the length issue, the whole ban feels kind of weightless if I am being truthful. I've gone over all the reasons... Just doesn't feel that good of a ban if I am being honest. I read every single charge off to airmax this morning and we were talking about it, and even he seemed confused as to why RM is actually being banned here. I tried explaining to him your 1000 bee stings analogy and he didn't really get behind it either.
I think the ban is a mistake in general. Your welcome to do as you wish, but I'd honestly consider letting this one go lol
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@Vader
Supa, beyond your ridiculous theory, if I am scum how is what I am doing helpful to my scum team in the slightest? If you think my only goal was to lead one mis-lynch and instantly die in tomorrows lynch, then that obviously benefits town. Even Speedrace's theory that this is a potential bus (though wrong) makes more sense from a mafia stand point then what you are suggesting. In almost every case but MYLO CC's it makes literally no sense to lynch the CC'er first. Especially on a hiarbrained theory like that lol.
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@Vader
The only thing that is putting Croc in scum is him being CC'd
So what is croc's scum tells? Because in stormlight archive he did nothing, and all he's done in this game is claim. How are you reading that in any way other than null at best lol
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@Vader
Yea but look at his justification, beautiful scenery but gets slept on due to its people, therefore Miller.
Water's role doesn't emphasize beautiful scenery because comparatively to Idaho Utah doesn't even compare. The mormon trope is more recognizable.
Idaho has beautiful scenery but is boring, therefore Vanilla
You are adding in your own interpretation of what Croc actually said to support your theory. Also Croc is saying his role pm is also mentioning beauty but only after pressured further lol.
Yours is positive connotation only and role that is based on that
Why not ask other people if there role as negative connotation? You are leaping to huge conclusions over assumptions you are making about the game.
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@Vader
Maybe sausage egg mcmuffins arent the best brain food for you my guy. That's quite literally the dumbest theory I've ever heard. Also crocs role doesn't have a negative anywhere in his justification. And he added the boise stuff only after being pressured wierd he wouldnt mention that initially. Water is miller so the negative literally defines the role lol
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@Speedrace
Do you skip the day phased when you're lynched or when you're killed in general
Beloved princess skips the next day phase when lynched, and skips the next night phase when killed.
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@Vader
Claiming miller as scum isn’t a big time strategy if you make a viable claim
However water's claim, justification, and personal circumstance with big brain scum plays, make the claim townie af.
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@Barney
Correct. While I don't think there should be zero moderation, not every statement someone disagrees with need be reported.
Agreed
Not sure the best way to handle it. The reason for vote and forum moderators, is to make it less of a burnout job, and to pass things on to people with less investment in any feud.
I was more referring to the main moderators, I can get behind delegating for the debates and voting. Even Airmax did that
I can admit that is the slippery slope we're on. I stand by bans being about patterns more often than a single insult or whatever (with a few exceptions where it was particularly excessive), but we do need checks and balances to keep it from getting out of control (or reigning it into control if already out of control).
Well we can kinda of narrow the discussion here for repeat "offenders" to the length of the ban I suppose. Imabench can correct me here if he feels inclined, but even though his bans were copious, I don't think he often if ever had bans last longer than a week did he? When you get into the realm of "month" long bans, to me it just starts feeling unnecessarily long for a site that needs patreon donations to survive hosting fees. And again I think as long as it doesnt get into doxxing territory too often, some of the drama is healthy and good. Promotes activity. Why deny the site that for 1-2 months?
Ironically, part 1 is something RM has repeatedly suggested (himself as site moderator), but the opposite of part 2 (well he would probably call it the ultimate discretion, but I you get the idea). ... This has continued even after removing the disagreeable no insults rule from the CoC.
Hmm, does it being Ironic that RM kind of agrees mean you dis-agree? What's your take?
I've put some hard work into getting the CoC to be less restrictive on that, but if you say it's a fear, it's clearly not enough yet.
I am definitely not implying blame on you, and from what I've seen you are actively trying to loosen some of the rules. That was why I framed the original question the way I did. If your simply following guidelines of the CoC that's one thing. Mostly curious as to how much you can be discretionary about the CoC though in regards to examples of supa situation. Just because something is hard written in the rules doesn't mean you can't say "Yeah I think that punishment might not exactly fit the crime in this context" and bend the rules towards leniency here.
I admit my one big complaint about DDO's moderation was that Restraining Orders were nearly impossible to get (the one time I got one, I gently called out the person for violating it, and quickly heard from a mod how me asking them to honor it was itself the true violation of it). At the same time, I had no qualms about losing a member for refusing to make them be given out like candy. They remain a bit of a last resort.Anyway, thank you for all the feedback!
I appreciate you considering what I've had to say, and hope I haven't given the impression I am bashing moderation. I still view it all as a new operation and I definitely don't know that I would be any better. Obviously it's easier to be in the peanut gallery back seat driving, but it seems like in general you see things similar. I am mostly focused on length of bans. Also I am not sure I entirely agree with the "boiling point" argument. If this RM situation is a culmination of a lot of things, but only boiled over because of the Mikal argument the other day, I wonder what would have happened if we let that thread continue. I mean they don't like each other, but they do seem to have some monicker of respect for the other now after some discussion today. Makes the banning decision feel a little hazier now to me.
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Activity is weird tonight, even from people I'd generally expect to be more active like pie and speed are silent.
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@Barney
We're always open to discussion and policy change. What do you have in mind?
Incoming wordy post! Also Ragnar, I know we communicated a little earlier on discord and some of what I said there may be repeated to an extent, but this is due mostly to the fact that I am hoping the other mods will also read this an opine.
So all of this is going to be philosophical and based on my personal experiences and understandings of course. But my feeling is that overall, over-moderation on a website like this creates a distinct problem that I think clashes with the nature of what the website is intended to be. Now we are working with a very small group of people I realize so I don't want this to be construed as me saying moderation here bans more frequently than you probably do. I've mostly been active in the games forum, so I am not always privy to the details of what goes on elsewhere here until I occasionally glance.
But I think the aim should be towards a more laissez-faire attitude in general towards moderation. Obviously discretion should be used to an extent. Referencing our conversation earlier, you mentioned I could say "Hey fvck face" to you and not be banned if it is reported until it becomes such an issue to an extent where it is spammed; but I don't know if that's the general vibe that is felt whether it is true, or not. This could be in part due to multiple moderators giving an entirely strong police force appearance. One of my first interactions with moderation that struck me as weird was a heated argument I got into with Wylted in a mafia game (warren's office mafia) where Wylted was dishing some heat on me, and I started dishing it back. Standard mafia aggression ya know? Speedrace actually stepped in and mentioned that the behavior was un-acceptable. Me and Wylted were both confused by this, and despite having just argued with each other, actually teamed up on him on the subject of policing words. Eventually speed conceded this issue, and I am not bringing it up to bash him in the slightest, I love speed and think he's awesome. I am slowly working my way to a point here, but I don't want to tangent on this too much at the same time. I have seen you (ragnar) slide into forums where things have been ridiculously reported and I can practically see you rolling your eyes at the report. I'll link this as an example since I used it earlier: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4154-someone-is-secretly-admiring-me-on-dart?page=4&post_number=97. That is to say I think you agree with me in general that you don't want to over-moderate.
However I think the impression comes off indirectly regardless. When the website first started up, I remember there was a lot more DDO refugees sticking around then their are currently, and besides maybe RM and ethang, I remember the general consensus of hope that airmax would resume moderation here. I think it's safe to say that in general airmax was a well received mod besides a very few obvious people who didn't take to him like those mentioned previously. And while I am a good friend of his and trying hard not to come off as biased here, I think the reason he was successful was because he was real in the way he moderated. He treated people and situations like they were real. Imabench was universally banned more than any other member on the website, but he was very well received by a good portion of the member base. While I am sure he is mostly a different person now as he and we all have grown, I don't see him making similar posts to what he did on DDO here just for the lack of caring and the knowing that it wouldn't be received as well. I think the laissez-faire way to mod would be to maybe slap someone on the wrist more, the way he was constantly wrist slapped, but in general let things go easier. The supadudz situation; I remember opining strongly on that and maybe you guys didn't understand why I was so vehement about that. I mean supa himself didn't even seem to care. Even RM is telling me to "relax" implying he doesn't care all that much anymore, but that's not even really the point. I can't see airmax having banned supa for a week for responding to a user he had past beefs with because the context was friendly toned in nature, and didn't have anything to do why the "restraining order" was implemented in the first place. Again supa didn't care, but these types of bans are a slippery slope, and I feel the reason many people won't join this site in any contributive capacity.
I quite literally have talked to people from DDO about this and many say they don't join or participate is simply because there are too many moderators. I personally like and respect each moderator here; I have nothing but good things to say about the three of you. That said I kind of agree with the statement that one would probably be better. We are all inclined to confirmation bias towards friends, and that can kind of be a slippery slope. I was offered a moderation position myself, and while I highly appreciated the offer I didn't accept. I know I am not capable of making the mature decisions that airmax had to deal with, and it would be against my nature to not ban people like RM who seem to constantly be making issues. But really it's people like RM, imabench, YYW, (insertaggressive vocal user here) who make the site thrive.
Widely my point can be ascribed to say that "drama" is good, but that sounds a bit over simplified, because you can easily counter that by saying "we don't ban drama". That may be true, but that's not the sense that is portrayed, and it isn't necessarily true all the time, because if you can amount a hundred small offenses to equal a huge one, it's easy to justify a ban on someone like RM by dismissing him as "always just being a problem".
Some of my best growing experiences on DDO come from the "beefs" I've had, and eventually learning and growing from them. If I was banned (and I can certainly tell you, in my history on DDO I certainly had many instances where a ban would have been justified) for 2 months I don't know if I'd have overcome some of those beefs and made as many friends from the site as I have now. I can seriously say that at least half of my closest DDO friends were enemies at some point. Times change. People change. Opinions change. We aren't always not prideful enough in the moments to admit were wrong, and it takes time and reflection to change your mind on a subject. As moderator in a large group of people who are friends that generally agree with each other, I can easily see myself falling victim to unintentional confirmation bias and largely dismissing something as a "persistent problem" that get's solved with a ban. There is much much more to say on this and I am not sure I am making the point that I am trying to make as efficiently as I would like. So to stop from blabbering I'll summarize what I think would fix the appearance of "over-moderation".
1. Go down to 1 moderator
2. Use a lot more discretion in both banning, and choosing ban lengths.
Number 2 is most important here. When banning someone think about a situation. Supa's is the easiest to refer to in this. Ask yourself "Was this really that bad? Does this person need a week to feel like a child in a corner, or 2 months?". This will take a lot of putting yourself in the persons shoes. "Should I really ban supa for a whole week because he replied to a user in a friendly tone that he once had beef with?" Just think about the situations a lot more I think. Because I think that's the main reason why old DDO users won't stay here. This is a lovely looking site and the owner did a fantastic job putting it together, from what I've gathered about the activity and conversation with others, I am left to deduce the reason people aren't more vocal at times is fear of moderator related retribution (even if, like I said that isn't necessarily the case). I have a general feeling that I can't speak the same way that I did on debate.org, without consequence. That freedom of speech was one of the biggest attractors on that site for me. I could beef hard with someone and months later be friendly with them. You just can't get that type of relationship with most people on facebook, and that's why DDO encouraged intellectual stimluation alongside social networking. I want to say "Your wrong douchebag, and here's why your f'ing wrong" without being blocked by that user. Then later I can re-read that post realize I was a douche, and re-evaluate my opinion in a way I couldn't if a restraining order or something was placed on me and that individual barring him from letting me see and reflect further on his opinions.
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@Speedrace
2 months is standard as you'll get more time if you've committed other offenses in the past
2 months is standard for what? Doxing?
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@Speedrace
That's weird?? I don't remember the ban being about doxxing or coordination with banned users.
The other one was general inquiry about the severity of bans in general, and how much discretion is applied vs how much is followed by arbitrary rules. I in general think stricter rule enforcement aids to the general low activity of the website. I'd be more vocal about this but it's a thin line of deciding whether I care enough. If I knew a significant amount of members would flock here it may be worth the time assuming I am not ignored in the appeals.
To phrase a better question; is moderation open to changing policy that broadly or is it a futile matter?
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@Barney
That would be like trading a queen for a pawn. It doesn't make sense for scum to do that to kill one vanilla, at the expense of a goon or higher.The odds of us hitting a townie on DP1 are already plenty high.
Exactly lol. I as scum would not CC dp1, especially croc of all people. Not worth in the slightest.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I would rather wait until next DP though unless you have some other reason for wanting one immediately, give some time for info gathering roles to do their work.
Waiting til next day phase would kind of defeat the purpose, since the intent would be to see if their is other CC's to prevent a potential mislynch.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Hmm... You may be right. That said, is there a specific harm in popcorn claiming? Any reason to think a certain state might be a power role, or mafia? just to cross our T's and Dot our I's?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Do you think warren actually bastardized the game other than his own participation? If so what do you think of the potential that there could be other CC's? What are your thoughts on a mass claim?
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@Barney
I assumed bastard to mean just warrena participation in his own gane. But if he also meant that bastard implied doing bastardly things like putting multiple of the same state into the game there could be potential other CCs waiting to happen. A mass claim could potentially save us a mislynch here. Though bastard could also imply it was done only once. Who knows.
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3 votes is enough for now. I'd still like crocs claim and some discussion this day phase. No reason to rush it. More content will help investigative roles decide who to be on tonight.
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I am relaxed, just asking for an answer. Last time I brought up an issue with a ban Ragnar was also the only one to give a semi decent response, it would be nice to hear from the other mods.
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@Vader
I was catching up or didn't see. I commented later. It was probably when it was 12am. And no, but I don't rule it out. Water is a noob. He could be doing that strategy
No offense to water, but what about his scum play makes you think he is capable of big strategies like that? They played the last game way safe and basically gave up when bullish copped them. I had to convince them to try and that's the only reason they ended up trying to CC. I am sorry, but water is hella town.
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@Crocodile
im idaho.apparently i like potatoes and i am boring
Sorry I just got to work, and am catching up now. I didn't see this claim. I am also Idaho. I am beloved princess, basically because my state's nature and scenery is beautiful and unparalleled to any other state. What is your role?
vtl crocodile
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@Barney
Mormons usually wait for marriage before "sleeping."
lol
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@Vader
Actually lol I kinda dislike waters claim a lot because he didn’t immediately claim the SOP. He went to char then affiliation. I don’t like that, he’s slight scum
Um... You ever seen a scum miller?
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@Vader
I null Watee off the claim. My role PM was the same kind of shotty that Waters is. But I don’t get why Utah is being slept on is my concern. FoS on Water
What do you mean being slept on? It was all that was talked about before you made this post lol.
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@David
@Barney
@Speedrace
Can we get an official response to the status of this? Ragnar has provided a little bit of why the ban is going through, and it's been pointed out that there is some holes in it. At the very least is there consideration going into the length of the ban? Because two months seems extremely long. Is there any sort of trial system allowed in the rules? I'll be the first to point out when RM says something ridiculous but after reviewing the reasons for the ban I am not entirely convinced it is necessary. At the very least a slap on the wrist ban, but 2 months seems excessive.
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@RationalMadman
Mikal unbanned you from the discord. Not sure if you care, but he told me to tag you and let you know.
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@Vader
With your confrontation, you specifically created a post to attract attention and went after site members such as Lunatic. I did not make a decision on this behavioral, but it warranted some action
If this actually has anything to do with me, I am ashamed. I don't need moderation to fight my battles, especially when I am winning them lol. I hope moderation re-considers if this actually has anything to do with RM's insult towards me. I was actually amused by his insult, and was deftly destroying him argumentatively. I prefer that kind of justice.
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Anyways, water is basically town confirmed based on justification, no use even talking about him as a potential lynch IMO.
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@ILikePie5
Just because it doesn’t happen doesn’t mean it can’t exist. I’m policy lynching millers if there’s no suitable lynches.
You are just highlighting the faults in following a policy lynch IMO. It's kind of a mindless way to say, i'm lazy and this is an easy option
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@Swagnarok
Mikal still does regular hangouts on DDO?After all this time, still?
Yeah we have a discord I usually post it every friday here in the games forums. We usually play live mafia
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@thett3
Totally agree, bluesteel was one of the smartest and nicest people ever on DDO. I think RM is being ridiculous by thinking that he tried to swindle the DDO community out of a few hundred dollars...but I also dont think RM should be banned for having weird and unfounded opinions about the actions of people 5-6 years ago on a different site
Agreed. We are trying to talk to Ragnar about RM's ban, but I don't know how much effect it will have. I am all for freedom of speech. If people are gonna say dumb things, I would rather be able to point out to them myself that what they are saying is dumb, not see them banned. I miss airmax's relaxed bannings. I am not trying to call ragnar out either, I like and respect him plenty we just have different views on how moderation should be. This is more of a social networking site, or it has always seemed that way to me, and I think reddit style banning hurts the overall activity.
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@ILikePie5
Anything is possible in a bastard game
Again, warren mentioned this is bastard in his participation, not in included roles. Also you didn't defend my argument that no one as scum claims millers and gets away with it. And the one time someone (me) did it, it technically failed since I was CC'ed almost immediately, further adding to the point that millers are commonplace in games these days.
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@oromagi
That was his justification, right?Utah is fucking gorgeous- as dramatic a landscape as any place on earth- Moab, Zion, Capitol Reef, Bryce, etc. Everybody should spend at least a week in Utah. Mormons get a bad rap. I grew up with a bunch of Mormons and they were fine people- nearly as likely to drink and smoke and screw and apologize for their stupid religious heritage as we Catholics and much better looking.
I live in Utah, so I can attest to some of this. Most mormons are okay, but there is a semi-justified stigma of them that isn't always seen. I grew up mormon and left the church when I was 16, but the Utah mormons do tend to foster a more judgmental air then Mormons from outside the state. I was extremely judgemental of people who smoked, drank, and had tattoos for some minor examples. People who are converts aren't as likely to care about this, and people who are raised in environments where you see alot more of that even though mormon are not likely to care. Have you seen the southpark episode about the mormons? Matt Stone and Trey Parker mostly see mormons as well intentioned and likeable, and most people who interact with them outside of Utah get the same impression. But come interact with the ones in Provo, Utah you will get a VERY VERY different taste for them if your around them enough lol.
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