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@Bullish
Intent to kill =/= ignoring behaviour.
Dis-agree, and this is not RVS either. RVS lacks intent to kill. If you RVS with intent to kill you are doing it wrong. Behavior should back intent to kill.
here you are again claiming I'm being lazy, a simple look at this thread will tell you that's a blatant lie. There's a point where I stop responding to people because they keep peddling complete total obvious lies and even to go as far as to spin them into character attacks like you have done continually regarding my behaviour this DP.
You weren't left to be content with "lazy" because I called you out on it and scum read you for it lol. Being a prolific poster this phase in response to only me, doesn't erase the original lazy and hopefully easy lynching intentions.
And how the fuck am I suppose to know it's a mislynch if I'm town? SOP lynches have been enshrined as SOP because it's pro town to follow SOP in the absence of other info. Now 2 people other than myself have scum based you based on behaviour how can you still claim this wagon is an easy mislynched based on SOP alone?
You know it's a mislynch cuz your scum lol. lol and no two other people aren't reading me on behavior. Everyone on my wagon has stated they are on it because of non behavioral related things. Back up your statement pl0x.
If you've counted that against you, you've clearly accepted that the player base views the events of the game as correct SOP justification to vote you. Why then do you continue to attack players for voting you based on SOP? We've gotten bigger wagons on players in past games for worse reasons. In that game where you were scum with Water he got to L-1 within like 12 hours, even he reacted better than you.
Read my reaction in that game to being lynched, did I put this much of an effort into it? And I am going to stop you ahead of your self on the "your self metaing" this is your own argument and your own example. I get this passionate when I am town and on the lynching table, and I am playing exactly the same way that I did in the office mafia when I got tunneled for 4 day phases straight as town. If I have to die that's fine. I didn't want to get into that, and haven't otherwise I would be doing this with supa and singularity right now. But I know this player base won't respond to reasoning, where you actually have been responding. If you are gonna ask, I'm gonna tell. 99% of the time I am ignored because of lazy players and it's extremely frustrating, which is why I wanted to just get lynched off the bat and ignore the whole thing later when I can't placate you guys. This phase is all or nothing for me. Either I'm getting lynched and using this those on my wagon as a read for easy mislynch oppertunities cuz scum know god damn well whats going on here, or I am surviving this phase and we aren't having this argument in every phase after with every player who won't listen to reason because "tHeReS 2 MiLlErS" nonsense.
How were you going to dishout scum by voting yourself? You said you voted yourself to end discussion on the miller thing. You wanted to end discussion and the DP, in what universe is that "trying to dish out scum?" That was the my first point against you in #223 which you misreprsented in #225 but still haven't addressed.
I've stated multiple times that using my mis-lynch wagon would be telling.
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@Bullish
Another contrived claim you pulled out of your butthole of desire to scum read me. You failed to quote anything right here in your post https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3648/post_links/157931
This post wasn't even addressed to me. I responded because you are talking about me, and mentioned the relevant parts. Also I was on my phone and said right after I would be doing line by line as soon as I got to the PC, and I sure did.
And in fact in that very post you misrepresent me AGAIN by saying I'm trying "to sell a double mislynch" when I have never claimed DD's scumminess is contingent on your affiliation.
But I am now seriously considering that this IS a scum gambit where BOTH Lunatic and DD are claiming miller, because they thought they could get away with the mutliple miller theory.
Check yo self.
Water was the only one this whole game to suggest there's lynching DD if you flip inno and you're trying to pin it on me with the convenient lack of quoting.
The ENTIRE PREMISE OF YOUR ARGUMENT means that if I am town DD is scum. You keep doubling down that this is policy based right? Because of both the miller and the CC? So when I flip town and miller, by your own policy lynch requirements, that means DD is scum by your own argument. If you don't try to lynch DD, then you have proven that this entire endeavor was absolutely fucking pointless (if town) or designed for a mislynch (if scum). You can't argue that your own logic doesn't implicate DD if I'm town.
Here you go again thinking you're the only subject of the whole game
For you, apparently I am. You don't seem very interested in lynching elsewhere and my name is constantly being dropped out of your mouth.
Firstly, your behaviour isn't the only behaviour being generated, other players exist in the game and their behaviour regarding my vote on you also matters
Yeah? And how's that piece of contrived logic going for you? I don't see you trying to act this out with anyone else.
Secondly, your behaviour will be important even if you die because we can get associative tells once you flip. This is basic mafia shit and the fact you, a 10 year mafia vet, made me waste my breath explaining it to you is making me mad.
Oh so bus gambits aren't a thing anymore when they apply to your own reads? I actually agree with you about the associative reads thing which is one of the reasons I am okay with dying, but you already painted the picture that this is some bus gambit between me and DD, so I don't think even you are ready to look into these associative tells homie. Oh and stop using the vet thing. Grey parrot is a 10 year vet too, and I still don't see eye to eye with him like ever. We all view the world through a different lens. Clearly. Do you expect us to all agree on every point because we've played games with each other a lot in the past? Also you wanna talk about getting mad at ten year vet shit? Look at this in my shoes. I got mother fvckers acting like they've never seen mods put more than one role in a game before and lazily trying to push a lynch on me without behavioral evidence all fucking day,
A simple look at this thread will tell you that a swath of behaviour has been generated based on SOP votes on you. I most likely have the 2nd highest quantity of posts in this thread after yourself, yet I'm pretty sure you've called me lazy at latest 4 times now which is total bullshit. At least DD thinks I'm playing anti-town instead of just lazy.
I've definitely called your behavior and play anti-town. It started with lazy, and it turned into you hard core defending yourself, this is a different situation now then just calling a policy lol. You wouldn't feel the need to respond to me otherwise. I'm switching the target back onto you, and you don't like the pressure.
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Self-metaing is not an inherent scum tell. But it becomes a scum tell when you do it continuously and always against your scum-self. For example it's not scummy to say "I do this as town a lot therefore you shouldn't scum read me for it," but it is scummy to say "I DON'T do this as scum therefore you should town read me for it."
you can cross check any of that as true. It's done in lot of games. Greyparrot will say that stuff too "I don't do this as scum" and usually he is town. At most you can argue this is a null tell (which you effectively have), but you trying to argue this as a scum tell is laughable. My job as town is to convince you and others I am town, so god dammit I'm doing it.
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@Bullish
Bruh are you just doubling down on the misrepresentation or what. I never threatened you. When I said I wanted to kill you that wasn't a threat, that was a promise.
Stop with that "Bruh", you are clearly panicked that you have been scum read and the fact of the matter is mine is actually behavior based on you, while yours policy.
Stop with that "I was gonna town read you- Oh wait I always wanted to lynch you" Bull shit. I know how this game goes. And you will double down, because I've called you out and destroyed your case logically, and will continue to do so until I am forced out of the game. I've seen this shit before in office mafia. And if your town, and when you are wrong, and I call you out in the endgame or when I replace as virt, you will turn back around and blame me just like drafter did in the endgame. It's the same story over and over again.
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@Bullish
Lol threatening me with your read is an intimidation tactic and also scummy. Dont play games like that with me they wont work.
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@oromagi
Did you notice the way Greyparrot switched off you as soon as I increased my suspicion?I'm considering compromise lynches, it's getting late in the DP. You iz my #2.
I doubt it would take much to influence him back lol. Whatever ends the day phases and thus the game quicker seems to be his goal.
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@oromagi
If you think I am scum lynch me. But it's not like this was something you thought was an issue earlier so I guess now is desperation time.
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@oromagi
Are you arguing this because you hope I will take your word for it? Are you offering me your expertise regarding your meta? why?
Yes. You were quick to dismiss my "wifom" early but sont mind using it when it inplicates my guilt. :(
I'm town and trying to appeal to your better reasoning.
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@oromagi
So I choose someone that I have never heard of on my first post in the game and just hope to god that the character isn't taken... Out of character for me man.You have described my primary concern well.
Yes. Just common enough to convince people who don't know the show, just uncommon enough to prevent CC.
So you do or do not have knowledge about the show? Your knowledge of her commonality goes deeper than mine does, you tell me. So what does out of pocket mean if she is all of a sudden just common enough to convince someone she is in the game?
The extent of what your saying is: Millers fit a certain stereotype. and my claim is suspicious because it fits that stereotype perfectly. Awesome. lol
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@Speedrace
Your pretty obsessed with all things super heroes aren't you haha
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@oromagi
Maria Salazar is starting to look like an out of pocket claim, as Supa pointed out
As mafia, with knowledge of the show I could claim almost anything and completely play the town around my finger. Yet I went with some random season 3 character I've never seen or heard of? Why would I do this lol
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@David
At least character to get some of the pressure off. If i get lynched I will try to replace you
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Going on hold with mafia honestly might be the best route. I know the current game has almost 500 post, but 2-300 of them are probably from me lol. There seems a serious lack of interest for mafia right now, I think we may have to stick to quick fires for a few weeks til interest is piqued again.
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@David
Virtuoso just made a post in warren's sign up thread. Confirmation that he is alive.
Can you make a post? People are suspect of your silence.
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@Bullish
As a side note bullish, man to man, if you really are town (dismiss as WIFOM if you want, I don't care) check my behavior with supas south park game. Did I fight you or anyone this hard about getting mislynched in that game? I was pretty damn lazy and over-confident as scum in that game, and was inactive for large blurts of it.
Another reason I have been having a hard time buying you as town is because I don't see you being objective about this as you were in that game (you backed off drafter after hardcore tunneling him initially) and even backed off the argument in Speeds game about my third party claim being a scum gambit. You haven't appeared all that objective to me so far or even really open to the idea that you could be wrong on this, or that you could care less at the mislynch consequence of being wrong. Just some food for thought. If I do get lynched, and you are town, I at least invite you to take what I am saying here with a grain of salt when dealing with this situation in the future.
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@Bullish
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I'll preface this with saying I hate how you keep refusing to use the quote system at times to suit your needs, and its one of DART and DDO's best features. I notice people start doing this when they feel they are losing an argument. Primarily YYW is the one is is pretty prone to do this, and leave a wall of text rather than responding to things individually. What this allows him to do is to make broad over generalizations about a point rather than address it directly, and allows you to mis-represent the opponent (as you tried doing earlier when I asked you what you would do as a town miller who just got CC'ed). The fact that you are doing this at all is a pretty big scum tell in and of itself. It also (like the effect YYW has by doing it) allows a post to look much too massive for players to want to read. People do this in hopes people will skip the fine print dialogue between the two debaters and just go for the summary. People who feel like they are right in their argument don't need to resort to this tactic.
oh my god TUF you've been playing this game for 10 goddamn years how can you not realize this, BEHAVIOUR IS GENERATED BY VOTING PEOPLE, and it is my personal mafia belief that a VOTE should always be backed with the intent to KILL. Of all the people here, why am I having this discussion with YOU.
So if your intention is to outright kill me, so why does my behavior matter if it is your goal that my death is met either way?
You have misrepresented all my positions on your wagon. First of all I never claimed that voting you was based on behaviour, I voted you because you were covered by not 1, but TWO policies.
No it's definitely not that simple. If you would have kept this at your first post, I would buy that. But the fact that your repeatedly defending the idea that there is more logic to this than following lazy policies is where you continuously contradict yourself.
Then I questioned your apparent belief that voting can't generate behaviour.
Again, a blatant lie and mis-representation. See it's convenient not using the qouting system isn't it? You can put words in people's mouths and expect people to buy that as truth. I never said voting can't generate behavior. I defended quite the opposite position in virt's mafia when Supa was on drafter for an RVS vote. I am simply stating it is not in YOUR intention to look at today's lynch behaviorally, you were quite clear from the beginning that this should be a simple solution by voting for me and that we shouldn't over think things.
Like to told Ragnar last game, wanting to lynch people has never been in the history of mafia been lazy. The laziest and lowest activity games typically end in no-reads and no-lynches for a reason.
Pulling info out of your ass or do have a database of information pertaining to every mafia game in history? There are players who are notoriously lazy in this game, 3 of whom are on my wagon, GP, supa, and wylted. It's why I can kinda buy them as maybe being town with it, even if it does continuously piss me off in every game I play with them. You on there otherhand are going out of your way to pretend like there is more to this while also doubling down on this being a lazy easy policy thing. It's why you in particular appear more scummy than the rest.
You're also irrationally critical of 2 SOP reasons to vote you: being miller and being CC'd. Drafter is completely right you are selectively ignoring how this game is played based on your convenience.
Nah, drafter agrees with me about following a policy to conform for survival is different than believing in a policy, that conversation was going in circles, and it's probably why he stopped responding. And while I always argue against policy behavior as town, the whole argument concerning you isn't that you are following policies, it's that you are pretending to do so, but inconsistently. It shows at its core, you are pursuing what you believe to be an easy to sell mis-lynch. And at it's core, you are right. I figured I would have been mis-lynched by now. Lucky there is some sanity among the living players.
As town you would just count those points against you and scum hunt like normal so your behaviours prove your towniness.
I have counted them against me, and it's the reason I am okay with dying this phase. If I am going to die innocent though I am going to try and dish out scum along with me, and that's also what I am doing by FOSing your intentions with this. You have been the unusual one of the bunch on my wagon.
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@Zaradi
I don't actually see a problem here. Saying things to test people's reactions is pretty standard. If what Bullish says he intended to do was correct, well...there's 17 pages of stuff to analyze.
Bullish hasn't done much of any behavioral analyzation, except for tunnel an already willing to die townie, and mention he is also one of the many willing to lynch virt based on inactivity. This CC policy must be a bigger deal than the inactivity policy.
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Will respond to bullish post in depth when I'm back at a pc soon
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You'd think all the recent bus attempts would mean that scum would want to be conservative specifically because of that logic. Also why tag singularity lol trying to convince him of something hes already on board with? Painting me and DD as scum gambit is the easiest way to sell a double mislynch conspiracy theory lmao. If I flip town you gonna still scum read DD? This is kinda also why I am okay with being lynched, to get this dumb pressure off DD as well. Plus pie already said he will try to replace me back in so low key not worried either way. This mislynch will convince a lot of the smarter people that bullish and his boys are full of shit here
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I also can't get over why supa had an "n" in his characters name. If I was character claiming from a theme I knew nothing about I would copy my character name down especially if it was from a different language. This legit sounds like someone read the claim off a wiki and misspelled it in casual talking about fake claims in a discord, and supa copied that same misspelled text to post it here. If this waa actually in his role pm he should have spelt it correctly because of copy and paste.
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@Vader
The fact that you keep saying this while reiterating the fact that you dont understand the theme is hella sus. DD is literally the main Colombian detective on the Dea and is also a miller. That makes absolutely 0 sense. Poison being messenger doesn't make sense either. My husband is literally a drug lord. If your judging your lynch on claim accuracy my miller claim is more accurate link wise than any other character claimed so far.It just seems anti town and looking at Luna's role, idk how Maria would fall under a miller
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@drafterman
Falling in line with a policy that will otherwise get you lynched is basic survival instinct, it doesn't mean I support said policy. You argued the same thing in south park mafia when you claimed vanilla without pressure. You didn't agree with it, but did it because that's what you thought the meta was.But you're against policy lynching millers. So you are, in fact, choosing and discarding policies.
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@drafterman
Lunatic policy claimed miller, but then is against policy lynching millers. In debating meta, Lunatic is usually against policy but, probably like most people, he picks and chooses the policies he likes or suits him at the time. Regardless, he claimed very early which would be a bold, risky gambit as scum.
Btw, I am not picking and choosing policies that suit man. I am following an SOP that is commonly understood with millers that you follow through with or die. I heavily considered doing a town gambit and in hindsight wish I had. Not sure if I would have CC'ed DD though when he eventually claimed, probably would have just so it wouldn't look bad on me later, but wouldn't have scum read him for it.
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Character groupings:
Speedrace- Pablo Escobar in a typical evil vs good set up is like the main antagonist, but he is also kind of the main character.
Greyparrot- Poison lines up with speeds claim, he's escobar's top hitman in the Sicario's in season 1 before he is killed.
Supa- La Quica is another of the main Sicarios, probably second most badass behind poison, and definitely one of the most reknown. I would have been surprised if he wasn't in
Singularity- Limon is more green than the rest, but ends up literally being Pablos last Sicario before the shootout that ends his life. He was loyal when all was failing, and the money ran out.
This group right here claim-wise is pretty strong, not going to lie. There are a few other claims that could go in here that would be strong as well, but I am not going to give mafia free fake claims, so I will let them figure that shit out. But the fact that Pablo and 3 of his sicarios have claimed, means that (unless one of these is fake claiming, which is entirely possible) this is not absolutely 100% not good guys vs bad guys. We should take that with a grain of salt for now and obviously prioritize behavior, but these claims are very strong.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, I expect there to be a few DEA. The fact that only one of them has claimed means that the others probably have power roles or are scum waiting for a fake claim. DEA could possibly be scum, but I can't see DD counter claiming me as scum, unless when he claimed he legit did not notice my miller claim. If I get played by DD in this game I will feel like an absolute fool, but I feel like he is town, and for that reason I am almost writing of DEA as scum entirely.
DEA:
DD- Javier Pena is one of the 3 main characters next to Murphy and Escobar, and gets some of the most screen time. Him being miller actually blows my mind. An alternative to DEA being scum is as someone mentioned earlier, gringos could be scum which would make steve murphy and his wife probably scum. He is associated with them, but still columbian so that could explain the miller better. Still doubt that though, because if DD is town and what he said about his link to Los Pepes, it would make Los Pepe's scum. Problem with that is that there isn't like 3 separate characters for Los Pepes based on my memory. I just remember them being a group of people who are vigilante and want to challenge Pablo's hold on their sociecty.
My character Maria Salazar is the only character of the claims so far I am completely unsure about. I don't remember her from season 1 and 2 (she might have been minor then) but she seems more prevalent is season 3 which I haven't seen. So flips and or more claims are definitely gonna help us figure out the theme more, but I think the strongest claims in contect, are from the original group above, of Pablo and his Sicarios.
My initial thoughts are gringos/ Los Pepe's are scum. We shall see.
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@Singularity
not everyone feels that way, which is clear. Ragnar/SA was town read in my game for claiming early, as bullish kindly pointed out.The point of the policy lynch is to stop them from claiming. The chances of a cop hitting then are very very low and if they do, we should not be automatically lynching guilty results. I think not claiming has a positive ROI
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@Speedrace
@Zaradi
btw speed, zaradi when you say it was anti-town for me to vote myself, I dis-agree entirely, and I hope now you can see why. There are legit four players voting for me based on policy right now. There is literally nothing I can do to defend myself from reasoning of this type, whether you are prone to believe there are two millers or not, most of these players will probably have their vote on me for the rest of the game regardless of me not showing up on tracker/watcher reports. There is literally nothing I can do to defend against the argument of "he got CC'ed one of them must be scum". I guaran-fucking-tee you this will continue in every day phase til one of us is lynched. Lynching me is probably the best option to prevent this. Especially if you think if I am scum DD is too, my innocent flip could potentially save DD then its a net benefit.
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@Speedrace
What did he lie about?
On post 40 he jumps on my wagon "obv scum don't think about it". Indicating he is voting for me based on policy of lynching a CC'ed miller alone. Later he claims there is behavioral reasoning going into the lynching, but when I call him out on post 40, he doubles down on about the policy nature of the lynch.
" Why don't you think arguments over this miller shit isn't a flashpoint for behaviour analysis." (post 223)
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@Bullish
No, being CC'd is inherently scummy.
Trying to claim you are pushing a lynch for behavioral reasons when it's clearly policy based is inherently scummy.
Bruh I'm not going to consider a prepackaged case you present to me where you frame yourself to be town, and then come to the conclusion that you're town. You're being manipulative.
Asking what you would do in my shoes is not manipulative, it's making you responsible for your reads. You obviously aren't going to accept I am town prima facie, I want you to explain why you think I have played as scum since claiming miller, or indicate how any of my behavior hasn't been consistent with my claim. You keep trying to make it sound like there is some behavioral read to be had here, like this isn't a lazy oppertunistic lynch. That's absolute bullshit, and I've called you out on it, and rather than address it, you keep dodging this or twisting it. It's why you are by far the scummiest player on the wagon, and whether I will be succesful with getting support for your lynch or not, I will be voting you until you are lynched. And strongly encourage investigative roles on you.
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@Bullish
My #1 mafia pet peeve is when people vote someone and say "oh I'll lynch someone else later" That's bullshit, when I vote someone I want them to die immediately.Famous FT quote:Player - "if you could kill someone, who would it be?"FT - "everyone"
None of this means anything, the plain and simple fact of the matter is that you lied and are now backtracking and scrambling when called out for it. Your original claim indicated this was purely policy, and your second claim indicated behavioral analysis is going into the CC, but now your doubling down on it being policy. I can pass a lot of other off as being lazy, but your trying to play this off as pro town behavioral hunting while essentially being on board for the same lazy bullshit, which makes you by far the scummiest person on the wagon...
Unvote, vtl bullish
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@Bullish
Wel this is big wrong. In the game immediately preceding this one, a game you played in, miller SOP claimed and was literally never scum read by anyone the entire game. It's the fact you got CC'd.
It was mentioned several times that he was a lynch candidate for later on because of his role alone. Millers are safe lynch targets for mafia because they spin the policy argument and it's rather retarded.
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@Bullish
Again, you didn't do that, and explicitly stated it wasn't in your intention to do this by saying "lets not over think this".So you don't think we can behaviour analyze your response, your wagon, DD's response, or my response?
And you got CC'd
There's been multiple games with multiple roles. A CC has to have context to make it scummy. SOP lynching a CC is redundant. If it was a character claim it would be more damning.
If I was scum and just did a miller gambit and got CC'd, what's my play? Why do you expect everyone to automatically work under the assumption you're town.
I don't. You twisting my words to cater your shitty reasoning is scummy as hell my friend. I specifically phrased it "If you are in my shoes and know you are a town". This goes even further to show you aren't willing nor ever were willing to look into my behavior, this was a policy lynch for you, or as scum pretty opportunistic and easy looking lynch.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Bullish is a hard read, to be honest (I feel guilty for this because I know I've played in a million games with bullish) I don't know what his scum meta is either. We haven't seen him as scum on Dart yet have we? I didn't remember bullishes playstyle as either town or mafia in any DDO mafia game (he constantly is bringing up old games with me, and drafter etc, so his memory must be much better).It reminds me of his play in trying to lynch GP in Speeds game. I would agree that it is lazy but he was town in that game.
I'm still going to question his logic when it's bad though. Town or scum, bad logic is bad logic, finding out the motive for it is more important.
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@Bullish
Why don't you think arguments over this miller shit isn't a flashpoint for behaviour analysis. You were the one who advocated for a mass character claim, idk how that's any more behaviour related.
There isn't "behavioral analysis" going into the CC. You literally said "lets not overthink this" and just voted me. All I did was claim my real character and role. If you are in my shoes and know you are a town and a miller who just got CC'ed, what is your play?
Also I didn't "advocate" for a mass claim, I asked if we were going stick with it and noted that one positive of it is that it seems to make the janitor role obsolete. I was indifferent if we actually did or not initially, though now most of the main claims are already out, so if mafia haven't claimed yet, not forcing them to claim now leaves them a lot of time to sift through the remaining options with less than half of the players left unclaimed.
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@Vader
Unvote, vtl supa dudz.
Who is la quinca and who is Claudia lol whoopsies
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La Quica have an "n" in your role pm? Not sure if that's scummy lol he could have copy pasted the name
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@Speedrace
I didn't like it either man trust me. Just seemed like the best option given the dumbness going on.I really didn't like how Lunatic was voting for himself
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Looks like some sensible people trying to get this thing back on track. Bullishes lazy play comes off as scummy, so I think I want to focus him first. Supa and wylted both have at least have somewhat of a reputation for this type of stuff.
Unvote, vtl bullish.
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@drafterman
Policy, letting millers live is also dumb.
It's not policy. Choosing not to lynch players based on something that's not linked to behavior should be just a basic right.
Arguably, that's the entire point of millers, which is why they should be hidden until death. They are supposed to be anti-town roles that reduce the effectiveness of cops.
Miller mechanic changes are probably for the best. Most mods including myself have just been using them based on standard knowledge of the role however.
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