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@ILikePie5
I am Dmitri Mendeleev, the Dreamer. Mendeleev was a chemist who was known for discovering three elements on the periodic table. The link to dreamer is that he claimed to have a dream of periodic table, and when he woke up he immediately wrote down the details of the dreams. He apparently had discovered three new elements based on a dream. That’s more or less what my PM mentions but it’s rephrased in my own words.
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okay. Adol literally lied about his role. He ironically proved my entire point, but a ton of his responses in defense of that2 make sense in light of him also lying about his role… I’m absolutely baffled by towns abysmal play this game. The state of mafia on this site is going downhill extremely fast. And some of these players don’t have an excuse they have played enough games and I’ve seen them play well. I just don’t fucking get it.
Anyways I got dreamer results: banana, Whiteflame cerulean.
These obviously don’t mean anything. I already know banana is scum based on her being the last one on my dreamer result. Pie he technically could be scum, I really don’t see it behaviorally. I think the scum team is exactly banana/ cerulean. If I’m wrong it’s banana/ pie but this pie really doesn’t match what I remember of scum pie so I just have a hard time seeing it.
As far as cerulean goes; my question is why wasn’t he targeted for the night kill? From a scum perspective a jailkeeper is actually the biggest threat. I get keeping me alive as a mislynch, but scum killing Vader over cerulean doesn’t make a ton of sense. Anyway I won’t be able to be on for much longer as I haven’t slept in like 24 hours. I was literally about to crash when I noticed the day phase go up. I am not in any rush here but ultimately I will be voting either banana or cerulean. Banana is confirmed scum basically to me, but she used her execution so technically ceruleans role of scum is the bigger threat. But we can discuss it and figure out what to do.
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@ILikePie5
So do you think it’s exactly ADOL + Banana as the scum team?
Not 100% on banana. I don’t think adol + ceru are paired though either. I guess you’re still in my POE too though I’ve mostly townread your behavior the role claim is a bit rough. That said I kind of want to get first scum in the books and focus on that one later.
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@whiteflame
If we’re considering Ceru, then I’m going to need some explanation for why scum chose to use their RB on Vader. I get that it’s possible, but that’s the one thing that doesn’t add up. Why would Ceru as scum use his RB on Vader, then just straight up say that he’d done it rather than allowing pressure to build against Vader?
Yeah and also using it on Vader is also just a complete waste of a roleblock. So unless they were just planning on using their role for confirmation it doesn’t make a ton of sense. But it could be the latter. Either way adol being on my results makes me lean towards him lying, plus the fact that he’s had 4 opportunities to interfere with the night kill and somehow missed on all of that is extremely odd.
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@whiteflame
Nice. Like I said even if you don’t, I’ll just count second place as first, doesn’t matter. It not being mylo kind of confirms that there is likely a 3p so you are obviously not lying about being 3p. There’s no way a 3p doesn’t exist if there’s only 2 scum
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@whiteflame
I’m down to ignore lynching third party this game and just scum hunt for second place. Or do you joint win?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Didn't say bad. Being blind to when you are in one is bad though, especially if the core skill of the game is figuring out what other people are thinking.
How am I blind to a micro culture when I just admitted we are in a successful one?
I have no idea what you think this proves or indicates beyond internal balancing.
If your point isn't that we are doing things wrong what is it? Because proving 50% win rate shows a pretty healthy game state in my eyes.
Apparent reason != no reason. We don't know why That2User lied but suspicion about a story is not identical to catching someone in a lie. That2User was town, nobody knew she lied until she was lynched.
Kind of That2user to never oblige her reason for lying. What good did her lie accomplish her or her team?
Assuming her reason for keeping her role hidden was good, the lesson might just to be to lie more carefully; but lacking knowledge of the subculture which apparently informs you of the role layout noobs or people from another subculture can't lie effectively.
The thing is she isn't a "noob" and has even hosted games on this site as much as a year ago. I did cede that town can lie if they lie carefully, but this wasn't that. This was just atrocious play at it's core. She doesn't lack knowledge of sub culture, which is why her play is odd and indicates she is scum. Maybe shes been having an off game, who knows. The people suspecting her aren't the anomaly here.
You remember when I said I didn't know what Earth was supposed to have said that was suspicious?What do Earth, That2User, and I all have in common?1.) New to this game and this particular subculture
This isn't true at all. Earth has been playing for years, he even wrote the old guide on how to play mafia lol. That2user has almost two years experience here. Both are used to the subculture. Both have played well before, earths play has been lacking lately, I assume due to general laziness, Idk whats going on with that2user lately. Am I being harsh? Maybe. But it's a team game, and when my teamates are actively throwing said game, I think that's a reasonable reaction.
2.) WE DIDN'T FIND EACH OTHER'S BEHAVIOR SUSPICIOUS, I went with the crowd on User, my personal take was that she was acting town.
I know you think this point helps you, but under the current suspicion that you are mafia, it really doesn't mean much, because as mafia you have inside information. Mafia tend to use arguments like this to build town cred. "Look I didn't take advantage of a town lynch, only scum would do that!"... Or you just had inside knowledge and knew not participating on that lynch would make you look good. You have no reason to know these people were town, especially that2user whose role conflicts with your own. Its pretty convenient you would come to her defense.
That's how you know this is an interface failure and not "throwing the game". Of course if you consider not knowing the interface throwing the game that's up to you but you might want to write a manual with all these hidden cultural rules because they do not flow from objective game theory.
There's really not many things that need to be written down, most of it is common sense. I don't feel like telling new players to "Not lie" and "not hammer themselves" is such a niche rule that they can't piece that one out for themselves lol.
Guess who Earth was? Drumroll: He resisted claiming for a little bit, told the truth, got lynched, and people blamed everyone but themselves (their own reasoning).
So your first thought is that its clearly the players fault despite the fact that he was counter claimed as the first tsar. Both the mod is innocent of making mistakes in your eyes, or theres a 0 sum chance banana was scum and lying. Oh but don't forget, you somehow think you know for a fact that I am scum and are selling my lynch. Lol
In the Eragon game, I was town, I told the truth about everything, I got lynched, and people blamed everyone but themselves (their own reasoning).
Forgive me for not feeling bad for you here. You made it to LYLO, one of the three people who voted for you were mafia (Obviously they were going to try and mislynch you). Literally only two town player voted for you, whtieflame, and cerulean. Your point that the vast majority of the player base are clueless idiots is failing hard here. Sure town get it wrong sometimes, but you also failed in your town objective to point to austin or mharman as scum, in fact you had never placed a vote on either. The fact that you made it to the endgame kind of proves the opposite of your supposed point.
Above Banana said "Well if you [Earth] are town, casey is doing something funny here."So do you agree? Is casey doing something funny?
100% if banana is town, I am more than willing to call casey out for that in the endgame. Right now its an issue of whether or not I am more willing to buy a mod mistake over banana lying or three protective roles. Both are pretty bastard, which is more? Probably three protective roles.
I was not suspicious of Earth, I was right.
Having inside information sure makes you look good. Town are uninformed, thus sometimes wrong. Bragging about being right doesn't prove much about your affiliation here bud.
As long as you don't care if your "valid reasons" lead to valid results, I don't care what your reasons are.
Speaking of results, you haven't done anything to achieve your win condition. You haven't led a single scum lynch, and you have had two night with a total of 4 ways to have stopped a night kill, and somehow fluked all of them. You wanna cast stones at people when your claiming to be part of the same losing team, who hasn't done anything but offer up the plausibility of thinking another player is scum, meanwhile not justifying that read with any behavioral analysis. And boy can I not wait to get to the endgame when my affiliation is posted as town and I can use the "You were wrong" argument against you and hear your excuse for it lol.
My list has caught scum, and based on what I am seeing you are likely it....and when you're wrong it will be my fault, just like it was That2User's fault and Earth's fault. So fun, so interesting, so dynamic.
And whose fault is it that you are wrong? And that2 was too. I am town. I am excited to hear your excuse in the endgame.
I got results, if I had not ousted them dp1 I risk being night killed NP2 and town never gets ANY results.So make your fake claim something of low threat to the mafia.
It's not a fake claim. Also there was a streak for a while where I was being night killed np1 for like three games in a row. Ousting night actions early as possible is the smart thing to do in this situation. Waiting literally makes no sense, and gives more room for mislynches, and seeing as multiple scum can appear on the lynches, more results are relatively meaningless.
Pushes the average scum on the list above 33%. How much I don't know because I don't know the method of choosing.
I can tell you the method. Random. Mod literally gives me a list of three random players, she said, she only has to make sure that one of are scum. You can just use a list randomizer and roll it until you see a scum name pop in, and do it that way. Of course I don't know how she chooses her random, but I take the mods word for it that the results are chosen randomly.
If it's "pick random scum" then "pick two random players" then it would be (100% + 1/Remaining players + 1/(Remaining players - 1)) / 3So if there were 8 remaining players (9 including the original scum) it would be (100% + 1/(8) + 1/(8 - 1)) / 3 = 42%You do that twice and any names in both lists are very likely to be scum. 1-((1-0.42)(1-0.42)) = 66% for example.
And in the chance you get double town in those results, well that logic backfires pretty quick. And then your already a dayphase and likely a mislynch behind, and town can only afford so many of those. This isn't great logic.
I've been to the mafia universe championship games 3 times now, where every online forum that plays mafia get to compete against each other.How would that be done?Surely you couldn't put all DART members in town or scum, they would recognize the familiar faces and see the pattern. Therefore it follows that the players must be randomly distributed into games and then the win rates of the various forums added up, correct?
Each forum usually either selects a person to represent their community or has someone volunteer. Usually I have volunteered in absence of anyone else having interest to do so. This year we are looking at sending savant, as he has volunteered. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12560-mafia-championship-season-12
Its basically a tournament style thing, it doesnt factor in statistics and win rates from other sites.
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You’re assuming that there’s 2 scum, when there are likely 3. (Pie)Not true. We have 7 alive. If there were 3 scum, this would be LYLO, and that would have been announced:
Good point. This is good to know, we have at least one more mislynch to spare before we are endgamed.
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@Cerulean
I am Nikita Khrushchev. Because he negotiated for peace and safety, in some cases at the cost of effectiveness in other areas, I am the Jailkeeper. Each Night, I target someone- they are roleblocked, but protected from lethal actions.
This is a pretty strong claim, I don't know a lot about Russian History but I do know about Khruschev since all the tensions around him and the cold war. I like the claim, and can see this matching jailkeeper actually. Does your jailkeep inform the target they were blocked? Neither whiteflame nor vader have fessed up to being blocked which is strange.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
People get into gaming micro-cultures all the time. You know there was a point in American football when they didn't have a quarterback? They always just tried to dodge or brawl through. I think you've trained each other to think about this game a certain way and you perceive any deviation from your meta as senseless and therefore scummy.
Maybe micro-cultures aren't always a bad thing though as you assume they are. Think about it, if the culture here was so bad, then why is the town win rate on this site so high? Town literally wins games all the time here, you happened to participate in Eragon that didn't go so well for town, so maybe you think otherwise. Not counting debate mafia and LOLOL mafia since they weren't technically mafia mechanics, here are the results from the last 10 games played on this site.
Sopranos-Mafia win (close game, mafia won on fluke)
Serial Killers- Town steam roll
Castlevania- Town steam roll
Diary mafia- Mafia win
Gunplay mafia- Town win
ERB- Mafia win
Choose Your role- Town win
Inheritance- Mafia win
Albums- Town win
Paper Mario- Mafia win
Of the last ten games town won 50% of the time. I am actually curious at some point to do stats for the overall site, but clearly its not like mafia is winning all the time because we have bad game standards. Getting people into a like minded mind set on a few rules isn't saying "everyone who doesn't play like a robot gets lynched". Were basically creating POE's like "Don't lie for no apparent reason", or "Don't hammer yourself" that seem pretty obvious and reasonable.
Yet in this game misunderstanding is a lethal error.
Strategies and behaviors need not be intrinsically flawed to fail, they need only be different from the other town players (scum coordinate and this isn't a problem for them except insofar as they need to know town's idea of town behavior in order to mimic it).You can't just call every error in judgement YOU make a mistake in someone else's behavior. The real question is whether a full town of people behaving like the other people would have won. You mix a team of players from NFL 2020 and players from 1910 and they are going to throw a tantrum that somebody was just wildly throwing the ball down the field. That doesn't mean the quarterback pass is trash or that direct runs are trash.
You are mis-judging what has been happening in this game. We aren't picking on people for being different or having crazy ideas, or whatever. Earth literally lynched himself, how was that an error in MY judgement? That2user lied about her character and role in a game where people hunt liars. And when found out, she doubled down rather than be honest. Banana literally claimed a scum role and is widely town read. Why? Imagine that, she was HONEST. Imagine that. Being honest as town in a game where you are supposed to find people who lie got her town read? Preposterous!
In this case, I think a town of players like myself and That2User would have won.
Based on the simple suggestion of lynching me? I hate to say you are wrong, and I won't rub it in your face when the endgame happens and I am revealed as town. You are new, you are allowed to be wrong.
Notice I haven't made the same mistake. I could have been saying "anyone who doesn't go with the math is scum" but I know that just because someone is town doesn't necessarily mean they play the game by the numbers.
You are mischaracterizing what has been occurring in this game. You are trying to turn this into a black and white issue of us being some big bad bully who is demanding you comply or die for no reason. You aren't being scum read purely because you don't want to out your results. You are also a third protective claim in a game where the only killing ability thats known so far is the mafias, and you also happen to be implicated by results. You painting yourself and that2user as bully victims disregards all the other valid reasons there are to put you into the position you are in.
That you aren't able to see how a townie lying is harmful is a bit baffling.I just gave you a scenario with your own role.
If you think I should have lied in any capacity with my role, it makes you a giant hypocrite for voting me now, suggesting I am lying about my results. You wouldn't need to "prove" my results if I wasn't lying.
The reason there likely isn't three protective roles, is because it doesn't balance well. Mafia have three different roles that can fvck with their night kill? How is that fair?How could I possibly know what was fair or not without knowing all the roles and the powers given to the mafia? We don't even know if there are three of them.
At this point we do. Every player has claimed at this point except pie, who has been volunteering himself as a lynch since dp1. And it looks like there isn't 3 scum, we know this because cerulean pointed out what we forgot the mod mentioned in dp1 about it being announced when we are in lylo/mylo.
What if the game was a bit unfair?
Why would casey randomly do that now when the balance in her previous games was not "unfair"?
Did Cerulean specifically say his role "messed with night kills"? "protective" is a wider category than "mess with night kill".
Yes.
"Messing with night kills" is inherently what protective roles do. Thats what every known protective role does, including your own. Thats what protective roles are designed to do.
She was not caught in a lie, don't rewrite history.
Yes she was. She claimed Anastasia, she was Rasputin. She claimed Beloved Princess, she was White Mage. She had many inconsistencies with the accuracy of her claim that led people to be suspicious of her, and was primarily the reason she was the biggest suspicion last day phase. All of that could have been avoided with honesty.
Catching people in lies is how you scum hunt.Apparently not the only way since That2User was not caught in a lie and your list has proven nobody a liar yet it has IMO the most significant impact on probabilities.
That2user played badly and punished herself and her team for it. My list has caught scum, and based on what I am seeing you are likely it. We would have caught on to you sooner if that2user had claimed correctly. That2user messing up is largely why your still alive, so I can see why you would want to use her as a scapegoat.
Very unlikely. Remember dreamer only receives results if I am not visited.You're infinitely more likely to not be visited or killed if you don't tell the mafia you're a dreamer.
I got results, if I had not ousted them dp1 I risk being night killed NP2 and town never gets ANY results.
The chances I am not visited are astronomically low in generalWell since it happened in round 1 the chance appears to be similar to seeing the the moon at night (an astronomical observation).
I was incredibly lucky not to have been visited, and I went into this game fully not expecting to get any results at all, as is the common case with dreamers.
Secondly after finding out that multiple scum can be on the results, multiple lists don't help as much as I initially thought they did.I think it would help more in that case.
Explain.
So your strategy in a game where your supposed to find liars is for everyone to just lie?We're not supposed to find liars, we're trying to find scum.
And scum have to lie to blend in with town. Sooo.....
The general idea is to just lynch them, let them know what they did wrong, and eventually they fix the behavior, or they continue to lose games for their team.Sounds like you just drive away anyone who thinks about the game differently by being more willing to take losses than they are.
It's not about driving them away, most people who get lynched for these reasons end up sticking around and continue to play, they usually adapt, and as you can see, town win record isn't any the worse for it.
Have you ever tried to go into a different community that plays mafia?
Literally all the time. Mafiascum, epicmafia, Mafiauniverse, various discord mafias, live mafia on google hangouts was a thing on DDO, played variations of mafia in family get togethers, etc. I've been to the mafia universe championship games 3 times now, where every online forum that plays mafia get to compete against each other. Each site has their own metas some slightly vary from here, ultimately SOP's are formed in most of these communitys though, and they work for them. They aren't all drastically different to here. The core difference between games here and sites like mafiascum and mafia universe is general game design, we tend to have more power roles in play here than other sites which effects scum hunting in aspects of mod psyche and balancing methods (why I keep arguing this point as relevant).
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I don't believe that for a second.
So your strategy in a game where your supposed to find liars is for everyone to just lie?
Maybe you should expand your definition of "town behavior" to include these "throwers". You might lynch less townies.
The general idea is to just lynch them, let them know what they did wrong, and eventually they fix the behavior, or they continue to lose games for their team. Most of the time they get with the idea though. I don't mind losing a few games (frustrating as it can be in the moment) if it teaches someone the correct way to play in the long run. Many of our active players made mistakes like this at one point or another and eventually just got better over time. We can hope the same for players like that2user and earth.
What? Then how do you expect to play this game lolWith excessive sarcasm at the moment.
Seems like a very helpful way to achieve your win condition.
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@ILikePie5
Ya tbh I agree with you. I would’ve designed it with at least 1 TP with 2 scum or 3 scum. If there are 3 scum, then lynching me is game over sadly. I think we need to get Cerulean’s full claim. Then Whiteflame. Then I’ll claim cause might as well. Then we can decide how we want to proceed. With 2 townies already throwing and a possible third, we’re probably not winning this anyway.
Agreed
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I can't compensate for poor skill of my fellow townies.Yea, they're just lynching themselves. Why didn't they act like town?It couldn't possibly be that your idea of town behavior and role layouts is a little over-constrained.
Basically, a sophisticated way to tell me I am trash at the game. That's comforting considering I've been playing games on this site and DDO for 16 years (Literally half my life). Look I'm not claiming to be a god at mafia or anything, but there is meta's and behaviors that town can generally follow to win. Lying and self voting are not among those strategies. That you aren't able to see how a townie lying is harmful is a bit baffling.
So you were saying there were too many protective roles when there were two claims of protective roles, but if there were three you wouldn't have lynched That2User?
No. Btw she was executed, wasn't even unanimously lynched. But if she were it would have been justified based on the fact that she was town and lied, because most people were scum reading her day phase one based on inconsistencies with her claim. Turns out she was actually lying so it makes sense. If she were honest from the beginning this wouldn't have been an issue.
No, you would have found it even more suspicious; or else all this crowing about "too many protective roles" is deception.There are two protective roles in town (I know for certain) and I wouldn't be surprised if Ceru is also a protective town.
The reason there likely isn't three protective roles, is because it doesn't balance well. Mafia have three different roles that can fvck with their night kill? How is that fair? I've seen game with two, even games with three, but in games with three protective roles there is usually more killing roles to compensate for it. The only other claimed killing role we have is bananas which is a day role, thus cannot be protected against. It would be unanimously unfair to put three protective roles against scum in this case. Thus is it likely that one of you and cerulean are lying.
Town has plenty of reasons to lie.
Catching people in lies is how you scum hunt. You don't want town to be among the people you have to be catching in lies for the same reason you don't lie to the police detective. Lying is suspicious.
Your own role might have been more useful if you had withheld your claim until you had two or even three lists.
Very unlikely. Remember dreamer only receives results if I am not visited. The chances I am not visited are astronomically low in general, I am very surprised it even happened day phase 1. Secondly after finding out that multiple scum can be on the results, multiple lists don't help as much as I initially thought they did.
There are situations in which town can lie to their benefit, but it has to be done well and there has to be an exceptionally good reason for it, and I don't understand what that2users reason was, or what she was trying to accomplish, when she could have helped us get to where we are at now, last day phase. Where we know one of you or ceru is likely scum.
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@ILikePie5
Do you think there are 3 scum?
I don't know, I can tell you if I was modding this I would have 100% put in three scum. You've seen me put 3 scum in two of my recent 10 player games, and town has won both of them. 11 players balances perfectly with 3 scum if your going for your average four mislynches. That or there is a third party role or something to compensate, 4 mislynches seems like an uphill battle for a scum team.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Maybe I'm getting too emotional about this: but if town lynches the two people who got the math right (User and I) and then said "they threw it" I think I'm about done playing mafia. You all got your secret hand shakes and your palm reading, but in the end you're still lynching town and you're still losing.
I can't compensate for poor skill of my fellow townies. Did you not realize what happened? Look at that2users flip. She claimed to be anastasia, and a beloved princess. She was actually a protective role, and Rasputin. She was town and literally lied about her role. Town have no reason to lie. 90% of the reason she was scum read initially was because of the inconsistencies with her claim, her being in the dreamer results was only a bit of icing on the cake. Earth literally self hammered and was CC'ed as the first tsar as russia.
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@ILikePie5
Actually retarded. Idk what the end goal was. Like if she had just claimed White Mage, everyone would’ve been fine with it
Exactly, Rasputin is actually a prominent character I figured would have been in the game as well. I literally see no reason for the lie.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You had two chances to protect the night kill if the role you claimed is legit.and how would I possibly know who was going to be night killed (outside the list and Luna)?
I am not saying you could have known. I just want to know who you targeted and what your thought process was so I can come to the conclusion about whether it was a genuine miss, or decide if the reasons for who you targeted don't line up.
We can piece together who is lying out of you three better by organizing who visited who last night.No you can't because you don't know who is telling the truth about visiting whom.If you have a form of corroboration, start there. Otherwise this is irrelevant and if you are scum it's merely a tool which you might use to distract from the cold hard numbers.
How are we supposed to decide who we believe is telling the truth if you refuse to comply with the general consensus population and give basic information away like who you targeted? Are you presuming the whole game of mafia is just random guessing who the scum team is? What's the point of playing a game like that? We try to make educated guesses based on player decisions and motivations.
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@Vader
@ILikePie5
I targetted whiteflame NP1 and Pie NP2. I asked Whiteflame about the fruit because I just wanted to see if he would lie about it at all. Doesn't rule him out of POE but he was telling the truthI got nothing from you. So either you were manipulated or you’re lying
Now that is confusing, because whiteflame got fruit np1. Maybe he was redirected?
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@ILikePie5
Actually retarded. Idk what the end goal was. Like if she had just claimed White Mage, everyone would’ve been fine with it
If she was tailored or something thats the only pass I will give her. I just don't see why she didnt claim this yesterday after ADOL and ceru had claimed protective roles...
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@ILikePie5
Literally the dumbest move possible. Literally had two townies throw this game. I’m down to lynch ADOL. At this point, no way he’s town especially with 3 claimed protective roles.
I am leaning that way atm as well, plus his dodgy behavior
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Doesn't matter.Nobody has been better than random based on claim analysis in this game or the last one I played. It's just a tool for misdirection.There are no hard and fast rules about the theme character split or the roles that might be seen. I won't engage in any discussion which pretends otherwise.
You had two chances to protect the night kill if the role you claimed is legit. You could either target the person carrying the kill and die in their place, or you would protect the person dying and die in their place. Now we have three protective roles, none of which apparently targeted correctly. We can piece together who is lying out of you three better by organizing who visited who last night. Chances are there aren't three protective roles and we know that2user is one of them for sure.
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@Vader
Also gonna just claim because it's pretty obvious what I am and mharman pretty much already got my role, yes I am the Fruit Vendor. Each night I give a person a fruit and it does nothing but just notifies them they got a fruit. My character is Pyotr Stolypin. I was responisble for reforming the agriculture system in Russia to make it so that is was easier for peasent to by farms. I got assissinated in 1911 and my contribution greatly improved agriculture efficiency.
Yeah you are town confirmed with whiteflame
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@ILikePie5
Dude town is throwing. Idek. What was her plan lol. On the one hand its a good thing she wasn't a fvcking BP, but now it makes sense why she had so many inconsistencies with her claim.
Town should not be lying unless they know how to do it. Ideally they just shouldn't do it.
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@Vader
@whiteflame
@ILikePie5
@ADreamOfLiberty
@Cerulean
What did everyone do and why?
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Big surprise, I didn't receive results last night.
WTF Was that2users plan?! WHAT?! LIKE WHAT. IS TOWN THROWING WHATS GOING ON?!
Also with that2users role, we now have three protective claims. So with ADOL already being on results, that2users flip, and Ceruleans hint at being a healer, I am a little dubious of ADOL atm.
ADOL who did you protect and why?
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@ILikePie5
So you want to lynch That2?
Thats my strongest scum read out of the three.
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@ILikePie5
I am not. I’m asking if you’re going to trust me tomorrow. I’m fine being lynched today too, though it’s less to no utility of my role
I town read you, I was gonna say if your third party we could always just not care about your win con. Problem is how many mislynches we can actually afford.
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@ILikePie5
If Banana is town, then I can’t be lynched tomorrow. What do you want to do
Are you third party?
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I’m am okay with mharman not claiming. Unless we’re pushing a mass claim and all the others who aren’t claimed also claim, I don’t see a reason he should claim and not others. I am not town reading him either but if there’s a chance his role could come in handy by not claiming it’s worth keeping it safe.
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@whiteflame
Ah I didn't see this, I feel bad. Happy Belated birthday mate. <3
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I'll update my reads from whats been going on this day phase:
Vader- Town- role and behavior, he has felt genuine from the get go, I feel like he is genuinely a townie trying to solve the game, I don't feel like I am noticing any of his normal scum tells, and usually I feel like vader is kind of easy to read as scum. I am not seeing it this game.
Pie- Town- I am still clearing pie based on his "need to get lynched before mylo" thing, I have a couple theories about what he means by that, all of them mean he isn't mafia. And honestly I just don't see what strategy is as scum. Also behaviorally he is town, he is clearing people off of behavior rather than role confirmation, which is generally a town tell. In his argument with ADOL, you can tell ADOL is going at it from a numbers POV where pie is clearing people based on behavior. I am not as convinced as him that banana is town behaviorally, she's generally been pretty inactive since she claimed, however I get the logic behind "Why would she do this as scum".
Whiteflame- Town- I have him as town behaviorally, I don't see what his motivation for arguing for me against that2 would be if he was scum, if he was scum, I imagine he'd be happy with any mislynch, and this entire scenario would benefit him by just acting indifferent. That alongside my earlier read still being consistent, he has shared a lot of similar thought processes with me about the game and it's players, so knowing I am town, I tend to town read him for that as well.
Mharman- Null - I don't really know where to put mharman. I feel like he is usually pretty easy to mark off as town, and he feels inherently different this game. I am not feeling the mharman that usually jumps in with great ituition and reads, who feels like he can solve the game single handedly that we usually get with town mharman. That and I find it wierd that he called the earth lynch retarded after agreeing that earth was probably scum at the end of dp1. Also to me that lynch just kind of felt obvious. 1. We were running out of time 2. We virtually had a CC with two characters claiming the be tsars 3. Both their character names were virtually identical 4. Earth in general was playing pretty badly, from lack of effort all the way to self voting. I just feel like it's kind of a weird shade to throw on people who were on that lynch, and makes me wonder if he was trying to paint people in a bad light so he could use it against them for potential mislynches, when ultimately the lynch wasn't even really that bad. I've seen much worse lynches than that get defended at least.
Cerulean- Null- I don't like the inactivity, but I understand he is playing on multiple websites at the moment. The protective role soft claim gives him enough town cred for me that I won't put him in the scum pile for now, particularly because I don't know we can trust ADOL yet, and for all I know there is only one protective role. That said I need to see a considerable amount of effort come from this player slot before I feel comfortable passing them off as town.
Banana- Slight Scum- I did town read her yesterday for her early claim of being a scum role, but her being in my results is naturally gonna make me question her. That and like I said, she's kind of dis-appeared after claiming when I outed my results. She hasn't really offered reads or anything helpful, and I don't think I feel comfortable giving her a pass for what could potentially have just been a ballsy move.
ADOL- Flip flopping- I am flip flopping because I can see his behavior being town and scum. If he is genuinely town, the fact that he is looking at this from an analytical standpoint is understandable, but I do largely feel like he is ignoring behavior in a lot of his reads. I do find it convenient he seems to be willing to lynch me over anyone else in the results as well, when even statistically speaking I feel like it's less likely that I could be scum here based on several factors I've pointed out with my claim and the huge amount of stupid risk involved in claiming the way I did. Under the presumption I am scum he has to jump through more hoops and climb more ladders to believe that than he does by simply accepting that my results are accurate and there is scum among the people in my results. I am flip flopping also because this is his second game. I generally view ADOL ass a pretty smart individual and can understand the logic behind his arguments, but mafia delves into more than just straight logic, it also bears into trying to find liars, dissecting the reasons behind them doing things, and trying to figure out and solve things on a behavioral level. I don't expect him to know how to do that after playing just one game previously, but without any sort of attempt at that, it kind of leaves me wondering if he is just scum and he is going for damage control.
That2User- Has been openly in my scum pile since dp1, even with me giving her the passes I have on her character and use of the word "Assassination" still, so much of they way she claimed and gave unnecessary information was a bit baffling. Having just hosted a game where she was scum, I noticed a lot of similarities in her playstyle, her lackadaisical approach, almost uncaring sounding when she was answering questions. She has turned up the passion a bit more this day phase, but the dis-association initially felt just like her approach in Serial Killer Mafia. The next point is she never really outright defended herself or explained why she answered the way she did when she was initially claiming, though she did explain why she thought anastasia was assassinated, she only explained it after she had been asked why that was her first thought multiple times. The rest is still kind of a mystery. She sort of explains coming into the day phase that she felt pressured but she didn't come off that way, which is weird, she came off as cold and calculative in her responses initially, where as normally when town is being accused of something and they know they are innocent I would have expected her reaction to be a bit more blaring. It seems more like she is aware of that coming into this day phase when she is all of a sudden amping up her pressure on myself. Like I said, I get and understand wanting to confirm a dreamer, but it's also weird that she doesn't seem to even be considering the dream results could be accurate until proven. As mafia this reaction makes more sense, as if you know you are on a lot of people's scum radar's, and are then further implicated by results, you want to prolong your life as long as possible to maximize night action utility, and take down as many as you can before you go. Again with us already being down a mislynch, there being a potential for 3 scum, and pie having to be lynched before mylo, chances are we could be in mylo after I get mischopped here. Than all she has to do at this point is say "Looks like lunas results are confirmed" and try to convince yall to vote bannana or ADOL for the win. As whiteflame and others have pointed out there is 0 behavior analysis to go along with her intention to lynch me, so I have no clue why if she was town she wouldn't be equally dubious of ADOL and Banana, instead hyper focusing on the hope that mafia faked dreamer, and pulled the craziest gambit in mafia history. Her motivations don't make sense as town here and thus she is my strongest scum read among the results.
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@Cerulean
Although this seems extremely relevant and something you should have asked Casey immediately, but fine.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a dreamer work this way. The way I’ve always understood how it works is that it gives 1 scum and 2 town. I would have no reason to assume my role would function differently than the norm but it makes sense with it being every night so it’s not as OP.
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@Cerulean
I’d love to get some of your input today as well about the goings on of the game
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I would technically be a hypocrite if I said I didn’t see the logic in what ADOL and that2 are saying about confirming my results being useful. I am down to be lynched to prove my results, if and only if I am absolutely lynched today to do this. We already have one mislynch in earth, we still technically do not know if if there is two scum or three (keep in mind I frequently have balanced three scum into ten player games, the last two in which town won, its actually probable to balance three scum here), plus pie claims to need to be lynched before mylo, and we still have the potential to hit town within my results if we happen to choose wrong. Testing my role today might literally be the only day we can even afford it, and if we do it I’d be trusting the sh1t out of you fvckers to get it right after I die.
So if I’m not lynched today I will fight it going forward, but if that’s what needs to happen to get the scum in my results I am willing to be the days sacrifice to accomplish that.
I will say that it seems extremely interesting that that2 is going all out on this move and doesn’t even seem to be considering the options of her other dreamer result. If she is scum it feels like she is trying desperately to secure one mislynch before death, which if you are scum and caught, it’s honestly the play. on the other hand if you were to assume I was scum here you have to ask how this play helps me here, because as scum I’d have to have considered I’d likely to be lynched in order to test my results so suicide was basically a 50/50 chance for me if this was a gambit. Not that I wouldn’t take risks as scum, but that would be hypocritical of me after I literally just gave bullish sh1t in the last game about taking risks like that for literally no reward.
Lastly I claimed dreamer and my results before the following people even posted: cerulean, mharman, ADOL, banana. Not to mention anyone who had posted already but hadn’t claimed a visit target could have claimed a visit on me any time, including pie, and Whiteflame. So the logic that I am scum here is already banking on me taking the risk of claiming dreamer which is a 50% suicide mission in and of itself and then to top that off I claimed results when literally only one person had made any mention of a visit, meaning if I was scum I was taking the biggest gamble in history that I wasn’t visited np1 by literally anyone. There’s taking risks, and there’s being stupid, and that just suggests the latter every time.
If that’s where people absolutely wanna go though I get it, but you better get the scum in my results tomorrow, because further mislynches will be costly as hell.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Forgot to ask. Who did you protect np1 and why?
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@Mharman
That2user seemed obvious to me based on her claim
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@Mharman
That2user seemed obvious to me based on her claim
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@Vader
Agreed, also I think if he was scum his partner would have just told him to claim bodyguard, which is essentially what he is. He's new and obviously doesn't know what a bodyguard is, so it kind of looks innocent that he claimed another role that does the same thing lol
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@Mharman
Also you seemed to think earth was scum at the end of dp1 did you not?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Heads up, you are not allowed to edit posts in mafia. I don't think casey will modkill you for it since you obviously didn't know. But the problem with that is if someone scum slipped, they can go back and erase or change it.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Well maybe I should refrain then. Not to put you in the line of fire, but if you are sure you won't be able to produce another list (and I agree if nobody can protect you), then maybe the best thing you can do is die in the night.That will remove the suspicion that you are scum and validate the one list we have.Analysis?
I would just use your best judgement on how to bodyguard tonight. Openly calling out your target either way will lead mafia to plan around it, if they have roleblock abilities for example they can prevent you from doing it and kill me anyway. But yeah, me dying isn't really the worst thing here since I already have exposed results, and confirming them would be good. If I can take pressure off of other potential power roles even better.
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@Casey_Risk
My apologies, I didn't think that rule applied to questions and answers.
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