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@oromagi
The case against arose in a nutshell is that his playstyle if town is extremely different from those of the last two games he played in. He came in claiming to do his usual gambit in the signups. After roles are handed out and the game starts he retracts that saying he will not be doing his usual gambits. Leads me to assume him being mafia and wanting to lay low this time is the reason. In dark crystal he was a town power role and still used a potentially backfiring gambit in orser to lynch a gut read of his. In this phase he was claiming he simply wasnt going to participate in thr game because it was long. This just doesn't seem like aroses usual town play.
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@drafterman
The vast majority of players voting sre voting for relatively poor reasons. The sleeping is unavoidable on both sides as youve pointed out in your analysis of the wagons. SirAnon was at l-1 and could have easily been hammered by the sheep, the fact that people were willing to go for an alternative shows at least some motive to look for scum instead of going for the lay down lynch.Are you not concerned that your wagon only consists of people sheeping you?
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@drafterman
Maybe thats because the case on SA is much weaker and the majority of the people even on that wagon have omitted that its pretty weak and are voting it out of convienence.It took, almost literally, the entire 72-hour DP to lynch SA. It took 5 hours to get AROSE to L-2.
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Not at a computer atm so just responding from my phone.
I dont see what I said about figuring out his playstyle being hypocritical at all. In fact learning about a players behavior tendencies seems more beneficial in the long run then lynching someone for theme info. I would think behavioral changes are monumentally more scummy historically then weak character claim lynches. That was something I learned early on years ago when I lynched airmax for claiming to be an object in f-16s harry potter mafia when everyone else was a human. You can't really argue that arose playstyle is not a stark contrast to the last game where he was town. Investigating why his play might be different here will help out understanding of his play. I wouldn't push the lynch if I saw town motivation for the way he going about this phase and genuinely dont see this as a likely mislynch.
Anyways looks like I am too late and that SA was hammered. I hope I am the jackass here and you guys proved me wrong on this and he's scum. Airmaxs claim that his role indiciates he could be scum seems the strongest support for his Lynch thus far and airmax himself said that the connection he made is vague.
Guess we'll see.
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@drafterman
His lynch will be a good indicator. Regardless he specifically said he refuses to participate which is pretty anti town. Not even to help the SA lynch you want.
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@Imabench
Amen! Honestly if this issue happened on DDO during it's peak of activity, I think more people would be inclined to support this logic. The community here is much small though. Honestly the main people who think bsh1 is a heathen for this still seem to be in the minority judging from what I can see, but regardless, it seems kind of like a witch hunt. Annie still going hard on him with the support of her clique even in his resignation thread enforces that idea.
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I hope this is just a break, and you come back. You obviously have a lot of friends here, I don't think you should quit if you enjoy the site! But I understand with the stuff going on in your real life if you wanna step back. At the very least maybe play some mafia? I was looking forward to playing in your game lol.
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@airmax1227
It's a combination of everything, and ultimately that he's the best lynch target this late into DP1. I've read Arose's posts and I really don't see the scummyness you are seeing. I actually grant him some credit for locking in his character so early.
I can' really argue for the stuff in your role PM obviously since I don't know it. But as far as the read on AROSE the "locking in an early claim" thing is a usual thing for him. He's done that in the past few games, I can provide links for that if you want. In the last two games he was very proactive in the first DP, and he does some crazy gambit that has resulted in mafia lynches in two games in a row. In Dark Crystal he (as town) fake claimed a character that he wasn't in order to try and counter claim drafterman (who was actually mafia). He was very active and proud of his gambit. So much he was claiming that he would come into this game using some gambit in the sign ups. After roles are sent out, he says he is not doing a gambit anymore and barely posts in the game like at all. When called out about it a few pages back, he has no answer, he just says he refuses to participate because there is 20+ pages. His behavior seems in stark contrast to the last couple of games.
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UVC
SirAnon: 5/7- water, drafter, wylted, ILikePie5, airmax
Supa-1/7- grey
A-R-O-S-E- 4/7- Lunatic, supa, speed, PressF
Ilikepie5- 1/7- Oromagi
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@SirAnonymous
We will probably be in the night phase by tomorrow afternoon, so you should be good.
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@airmax1227
Your read and ultimate reason for voting SA seems heavily based on some link between your roles indication of the theme. I hope you understand that this will be brought up again if SA is lynched and flips town, because I am assuming whatever it is that's in your PM must be pretty damning to justify lynching him for his claim over behavior, and a scummier AROSE.
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@Annie_ESocialBookworm
Your response is devoid of reasoning. But you are correct that morals are subjective and no, this obviously doesn't fringe my moral compass the same way it does to you.
You want to be offended and throw everyone in an immoral lump who disagrees with you that just seems silly. But you are entitled to your opinion.
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@Annie_ESocialBookworm
The comment was in poor taste, but I think reacting as if Bsh1 is a pedophile is taking this to the extreme. Again this looked like friendly banter that PressF was also participating in. You are more offended by the interaction then Press is. Also based on some of the things you've said in the other forum it sounds like you may have some bias on the issue based on a previous dis-agreement. Obviously the same applies to coal. I doubt he would ever have anything good to say about bsh in any circumstance. I think you definitely are taking it too far by making this sound like anyone who doesn't agree with you is the equivalent of implying what he did was okay or agreeing with the comment.Not speaking up when bsh1 said something so ridiculously inappropriate would passively implying that what he did was okay. It is not okay. It is wrong and absolutely unacceptable. Bsh1 refuses to remorsefully admit that he is wrong and has made several pretentious efforts to attract sympathy and make himself appear to be the victim. Bsh1 is not the victim. Bsh1 is the only one responsible for the distasteful behaviour that he has continuously shown. Until he grows up and accepts responsibility for his actions, he is in no position to claim any moral high ground. He is absolutely in the wrong, and my pointing that out did not "tarnish his reputation." That is clearly bullshit and you can see through it. Bsh1's reputation is based on his own actions, and his own actions alone, which clearly speak for themselves.
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@airmax1227
On the behavior aspect of SA, this is his first game. A claim from one vote seems a lot less scummy. The guy voting him was oromagi, the same guy you character claimed to after one vote. He has since said that he didn't know that wasn't what your supposed to do and seems to have learned from the action, and his behavior has seemed pretty town since then. Honestly I don't know if pressuring someone over an assumed thematic element is the correct choice considering we don't understand the dynamic of this game yet. Is the distinction in your role PM vague, or pretty blunt about the anti-scranton thing? I just don't want something mis-interpeted to potentially lead us to a mis-lynch. Also your character is anti scranton too I thought since he works with corporate?
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@Wylted
2 Marshmellows on a toothpickWhat do you bench press?
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@coal
That's fine, you don't have to agree with me.It looks to me like you're Monday morning quarter backing a game that your team didn't even play on.
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@coal
I am TUF.Your opinion is as misguided as it is wrong. Who even are you?
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@drafterman
Implying we don't have time left to make a decision, which we do.See. All you did was split the vote, making a lynch on either less likely.
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@Vader
Nope. Here's some examples off the top of my headWarren can claim the title of most forum posts in a mafia game
https://www.debate.org/forums/games/topic/97033/- 1524 posts DP1
https://www.debate.org/forums/games/topic/17668/ - 881 posts DP2
https://www.debate.org/forums/games/topic/47262/- 796 posts DP1
Theres other games that got into the 1000+ range but I don't remember off the top of my head. And games frequently got 500-600 posts on DDO. Average seemed to be around 300 for DP1 though.
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@drafterman
No... I am trying to push a lynch, but a better one. And I think I had a huge debate about this before a few years, but I still think No lynching is better than mis-lynching for "information".You asked why I feel it is scummy. I feel it is scummy because it pushes us to a NL, rather than a Lynch. I understand you don't feel that is scummy, but that doesn't refute why I feel it is scummy.
No lynching someone else instead of a weaker lynch isn't pushing a NL, it's pushing us towards potentially better results. Most of the people on the SA lynch were saying it was because of a lack of a better option, which I don't feel has to be true. If the phase results in a NL because we aren't able to get a lynch on a better target, that's kind of on the people still stuck on the first lynch. But a NL is still better than a mis-lynch.
I dis-agree that it's more than anyone else. If anything my town read on SA has strengthed lol. Despite me being the only one steering away from his lynch, he didn't exactly bandwagon my AROSE lynch, and still kind of suspects me. Looks like he is actually trying to find scum the right way.Dude, you asked my opinion on the lynch. You can't disagree that my opinion is what I say it is. I'm not basing my decisions on your reads.
It's a debate site, and a big part of mafia is debate and influencing others. I'm telling you my opinions to alter the course of the game in a way I feel is more important than the direction it's currently going. If you dis-agree with my opinions, tell me why, try to influence me why yours is better.
Not if you don't want there to be. This feels lazy.And this redirection away from Sir feels orchestrated.
Town orchestrated, sure. If some others agree with what I am saying, that there are better lynch targets, then I don't see what's wrong with orchestrating a lynch on to a better target. Especially when you yourself have stated you felt unsure of the lynch earlier on. It's not like their has been a big behavior shift from SA between now and then. And I am not buying this "there is no better targets" argument from you. There is just no better "convenient" targets. If you think I am really steering the town away in a negative direction with ill intent, that should make me scummier than this weak lynch on SA? But I don't have the votes on me, so your gonna settle SA right? Lazy =/= Convienent. I was probably wrong that you are lazy. This is looking scummy now.
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I'm not sure my opinion's matter too much, as I mostly stick to the game Forum. But Bsh1 is a good guy, and I have a hard time seeing him painted as some villain. Maybe the comment he made was in-appropriate, but I definitely think he would have gotten less blow back from it if he wasn't the moderator. I was just reading the thread for the first time, and when I saw the comment I kind of thought to myself "Hmm I wouldn't have said that if I was the moderator" but didn't really think of it more than that til I got to the second page and saw Annie and YYW light into him about it. I think Castin said it best, if the person it was directed to isn't offended, it's odd that outrage culture has us more offended then the "victim". PressF was even bantering back with him, and I don't even think he's gay. Seemed like friendly banter IMO. Honestly might be best for bsh1 to resign if it means he can make posts more freely without this kind of blow back. Being a member of this site shouldn't have to be a job, if you enjoy the debating community it might be more fun to just be a normal member again anyway. I was only president of DDO for like 6 months (and president is nowhere close to as important as being a moderator) but I definitely felt I had to change the way I talked and interacted with people during the presidency, which is why I didn't want to run again. Not having a filter and being able to speak freely is why most of us are here, to share our opinions. Also this site's community is more of a social one then anything. If bsh's resignation gives him the opportunity to play around and be himself it's probably a positive thing. Authority sucks. I don't know why anyone would want to be a mod, or a manager.
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@A-R-O-S-E
So you have no intention of voting to lynch anyone but also simultaneously complain the game isn't going anywhere... Hmm... It's almost as if by playing and voting you could fix that that problem...I did unvote in the void that is this DP
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Nobody should be hung up on the fact that this is an active DP. I LIKE active DP'es. They are a good thing. Lots of stereotypes on debateart suggesting what's good and bad, and I wanna challenge those. The more activity we have, the more posts we have to analyze, the more mafia has a chance to screw up and contradict themselves and get caught in lies later on, etc. If it was all pointless flamewars between a couple of people that would be different. This DP has been productive IMO.
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Why is it scummy?Because it pushes us to a NL which only helps Mafia.
No... I am trying to push a lynch, but a better one. And I think I had a huge debate about this before a few years, but I still think No lynching is better than mis-lynching for "information".
You yourself has omitted that you didn't think there was a lot to lynch him on earlier in the DP.Correct. But a lot is more than zero, and more than we have for anyone else. And personally I don't really think you need a lot, at least not this early.
I dis-agree that it's more than anyone else. If anything my town read on SA has strengthed lol. Despite me being the only one steering away from his lynch, he didn't exactly bandwagon my AROSE lynch, and still kind of suspects me. Looks like he is actually trying to find scum the right way.
We have a whole day left. Why settle on a meh lynch if there is a better one?Because there isn't a better one.
Not if you don't want there to be. This feels lazy.
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@A-R-O-S-E
I think it's safe to say I'm right about us getting nothing out of this DP when 2 posts of mine means more than 27 pages of 25 posts.If you're really just hard on for a lynch like that and are taking advantage of a possibly scummy thing I'm doing after those 27 pages, town is already fricked.Surely you got something out of those 27 pages of hard work, right?
We have a good list of character claims going from 27 pages, lots of posts to analyze going into further DP'es. I think your focusing too much on the number of posts then the content obviously. On DDO there was plenty of DP1's that frequently got 500+ posts. We are just trying to settle on a lynch. You in particular don't seem to be playing the same way you have recently, and this lazy style and attitude, and unwillingness to even try doesn't seem like your previous plays.
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@ILikePie5
Null. I don't see a lot wrong with him claiming character only. Also his character is a pretty strong one, or plays a bigger role in the series. From my memory Michael hates him and I remember several episodes where he is very rude to him for like no reason.Would you classify his outright character claim as town?
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@ILikePie5
Not neccesarily opposed to supa atm either.I think we redirect to Supa. He’s my top scumread since the beginning.
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@drafterman
Why is it scummy? You yourself has omitted that you didn't think there was a lot to lynch him on earlier in the DP. We have a whole day left. Why settle on a meh lynch if there is a better one?I feel all of this diffusion of pressure is scummy, tbh. Whatever I feel, I think SA is still the best wagon.
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@ILikePie5
Well it's been years since I've played forum mafia with him, but he is a pretty conservative player as both town and mafia. I've played most with him in live mafia games from google hangouts. I think he is undefeated there, or if not he definitely has a high win percentage as both mafia or town. He's very good at blending in as town, and he isn't likely to press a lynch as town unless he observes some really scummy behavior.You have the most experience playing with AirMax. Can you tell us his play style?
I don't know if that helps. I personally don't know how to read him yet based on what he's posted so far. I was hoping a bit more activity from him, as me and him generally tend to think the same way, and I was wanting to bounce ideas off him.
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@PressF4Respect
The only thing we really have on AROSE atm is his obscure softclaim (which he did last game as well)
His character is Ryan Howard, it was outted earlier.
and his lack of activity (may or may not be justified, I have to check how long ago he was online).
Well he has posted a few times earlier in the day phase. It's more like his spunk isn't here that he had when he was town in the last couple games. He even said in the sign ups he planned on a gambit. That was before roles were handed out.
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@drafterman
Yeah but at a couple points this Day Phase you weren't really all that sure that the SA lynch was the best thing. And now it feels like your kind of settling. I'd assume you would at least provide a reason why you don't think his difference in game play from this and the last two games is scummy.I read his posts and they don't make me think he's scum?
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@ILikePie5
I think supa is pretty scummy too if I am being honest. I can forgive some stuff he says because I understand he is a younger guy and still makes some noob plays, but some of the stuff he says just makes me scratch my head. I am wondering his motivations for being okay with an an SA lynch that he admits was just due to other things going on around the site, but can't seem to explain his reasons for not wanting to lynch a scummier AROSE.
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@ILikePie5
Dude if I am being honest, I don't know how to read wylted. That just seems like something he would say. It would be scummy if anyone else said it, but wylted plays this way a lot. Says kind of outlandish things for a reaction.How do you feel about Wylted’s Claim of being or not being a vigilante? Method to get shot or method to out a possible vigilante?
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@Vader
That post you linked if anything is more damning. He claimed he would gambit, no such gambit has occurred.
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@ILikePie5
Interesting. I didn't know that. Levi I think was in the beginners games when I played with himOro is levi_smiles from DDO and I remember where he was a popular mafia and chilled the entire DP lol
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@drafterman
What are your thoughts on Arose and his contributions then?
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@Vader
His gambit where he hides his character and role is what he does as town. That is my presumption since I for one do not know his scum play
Well he's done that the last two games he's been in from what I know. Are you insinuating he wouldn't do that as mafia after he just did it in the last two games?
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@ILikePie5
I felt similar about oromagi as well. He's posting but I don't know if it's crazy useful. And if you call him out on his activity he gets super defensive and omgusy lol, even though my read list listed several other players as inactive at the time.
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@Greyparrot
Im currently the only vote on AROSE so hes not near a hammer now.
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@Vader
Why is SA preferred? It seems you only re-applied your vote because you wanted the DP to end because of distractions elsewhere on the site. And why is A-R-O-S-E's play town to you? What specifically has he done or said that's townie?
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@Greyparrot
@Wylted
@Speedrace
@WaterPhoenix
@airmax1227
Same question to you
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@drafterman
@Vader
@ILikePie5
@PressF4Respect
@SirAnonymous
What are your thoughts on an A-R-O-S-E lynch, and if not what are your objections or observations of town play from him, outside his character claim?
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@drafterman
That's kind of the opposite of what I am saying lol
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VTL A-R-O-S-E
I went through the whole DP, and I just get the feeling that he isn't as hungry and proactive as he was in the previous two games as town. In fact he only has a handful of posts. In dark crystal the dude faked claimed as town just to get a lynch on someone he suspected was mafia. I don't see that type of passion here.
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@SirAnonymous
No, I am just saying I think those three are players whose styles are more "fend for your self survival". If their scum buddy messes up, they seem like they would be likely to push the lynch to separate themselves from them.
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