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@whiteflame
Then there’s Luna. I’d still say he’s the least likely to be scum out of these three, but I can’t dismiss him entirely. The 1X Bookie claim is a bit weird (seriously, you get only one chance to pick the lynch and if you fail you’re just Vanilla for the rest of the game? Also a bit weird that most everyone else has a 2X role or a JOAT)
Trust me, I ranted to mharman long and hard about how useless he made bookie in this game. It seems he agrees with me but seeing as he already designed it to work this way for the balance, it is what is is.
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@Vader
The part I am going to disagree is that I willfully "did not try to understand." I weighted options and everything. You claimed "ok once Wylted lynches I'm insta hammering Austin." You couldn't even use your role so that makes even MORE likely believe my logic.
It didn’t feel like you tried to understand because you kept miss representing our arguments about the benefits of letting Austin get his role block off. The way the plan was presented to you allowed you to get your way no matter what, town could afford three mislynches, and Austin was guaranteed to die next phase, so even if he was town it would have narrowed down the POE further. Literally now Whiteflame is the only player that is confirmed. My role has nothing to do with the logic presented. I still don’t understand why from your perspective as town this plan didn’t make sense.
What reason did I have to trust you that you were going to hammer Austin besides word?
The plan Austin laid out completely removes trust from the equation. No matter what Austin would have been lynched. If I back out on my word then I am scum. Both me and Austin couldn’t have been scum at this point so it was one or the other. I have 0 reason to lie about my actions as scum there because it would result in me being lynched as again town could afford to do it in this scenario. Now they can’t.
You may be a town read but I have no reason to trust that you would do and if Austin waived and framed someone like WF and said "ohhh then let's lynch Austin tmrw then." Sorry don't believe I was misrepresenting the arguments.
Because I said no matter what we were lynching him and I gave my word that if we didn’t follow through I was scum, because even though I town read Austin, the chance of him pulling a gambit as scum was too high a risk. That’s why I said I would vote for him no matter what even if the kill was blocked. If I backed out of this for any reason you would know I am scum. There was 0 downside to this plan. Scum had every incentive to make sure Austin was lynched, you not even considering the possibility of this plan paints you in such a bad light. It’s not even me trying to rub it in. Casey is guilty of this too, literally the only pass I am giving him is that I have such a hard time wrapping my head around him bussing GP like that but even my logical side is telling me not to town confirm him for that. It’s more that I was direct engaging with you and then you either ignored role key points of the argument or just stopped responding to them and stubbornly stayed on Austin, you don’t even seem to want to consider the option that he could be town and it could work. And you knew you had support cuz Wylted and Casey had mentioned disbelief in Austin previously as well. Even Whiteflame seemed to deeply understand and consider Austin’s proposal. You outright rejected the very premise of it from the beginning and knew you had the support to not have to even try to pretend to understand it. Behaviorally you look the worst for this.
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@WyIted
, I hope that humble pie tasted real fvcking good ya sh1t.It didn't taste very good for the record.
Alright sorry, I take it back. I’m not normally an “I told you so type of person” you were just so confident about the game being over last day phase I couldn’t help it. Anyways, let’s move on from this.
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@WyIted
I don't think he could have confirmed anybody anyway. Isn't a block useless against a commuter, lunatic used his role, I am vanilla I wouldn't know I was blocked.
For the millionth time ( I swear we explained this at least half a hundred times last day phase) the person roleblocked wouldn’t have been able to night kill anyone. Mafia had extreme incentive to make sure Austin was lynched yesterday to insure the kill went through.
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Also I feel like a single vanilla does fit well into the balance structure of this game. And I know mharman wanted to balance this one well, based on his comment in the sign up thread about avoiding the disaster of his chaotic last game.
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@WyIted
A large part of my scum read was because I felt like he was lying about his role.I don't know if it's Vader or lunatic but I feel like lunatic thinking Austin is town, is pretty suspicious. I feel like he was so scummy you almost have to have inside information to put Austin in your town pile, but lunatic was also playing a lot of wifom with his logic and has does that routinely as town also .
Bro I had literal paragraphs of reasons to town read austin. He was so aggressive on the GP defense, he even went as far as to scum read the people pushing GP. Who the hell does that as scum? And who the hell claims jailkeeper directly after a doctor flip? Anyways, I hope that humble pie tasted real fvcking good ya sh1t.
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Part of me wants to townread wylted for pushing austin so confidently, but part of me also thinks he is capable of doing that as scum. Dude was so fvcking caucky I hope that humble pie tastes good. Anyway, forcing himself as the hammer didn't do any favors especially over letting someone like savant do it. But if he really was that confident that austin was scum and it would end the game, maybe there's a world he just didn't care as town, but it was horrible play regardless.
Supa pisses me the fvck off. Literall ignored all the logic me and austin HAMMERED into him for hours last day phase about the math and logic of lynching outside of austin first, and in his responses was either just not understanding the logic cuz he kept misrepresenting our arguments, or was willfully ignoring it. Behaviorally, that was fvcking atrocious, and supa just looks soooooo bad for that sh1t. I'm the most pissed at him for not even trying to understand the logic, others at least understood it, Supa didn't feel like he even fvcking tried. I still have a really hard time buying that as scum his play with GP was to come right out and both insta claim, and his role looks very good as well with the existence of a watcher. Supa may be town, but I just can't excuse the behavior last day phase.
WF is town based on role.
Casey has a strong town case for him based on his role claim and his early push of GP. I don't want to dismiss a bus, but if he did bus that was a genius play. If wylted is scum I wouldn't be surprised if he was a ninja based on us having a watcher.
Idk I need to think on things, but I think atm it's probably between wylted and supa, I am leaning stronger towards supa because of WIFOM reasons about wylteds behavior just being TOO cocky, but idk I guess he could be capable of that as scum.
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Anyways, I am Splash Damage, a mechanic that deals area effect damage. I am a 1x bookie. I didn't really get the justification for it, but mharman explained since weapons that deal splash damage are often used to guess where players are, the justification for guessing who the lynch is is based on that.
I chose savant np1 despite not really scum reading him because I felt like he is usually a likely lynch target and I figured that was my best chance at getting the vig.
A huge part of the reason I wanted to follow through with austins plan too was so I could get a confirmed vig by guessing austin np2. Apparently I was wrong about how bookie worked though, mharman said I was 1x which I thought applied to the killing ability only, not the guess. But yeah I guess my role is useless after guessing savant np1 as I used the x shot.
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@whiteflame
So... wait. Why did Austin claim JK instead of just claiming Compulsive RB? Did he think that would be more believable?
I would have done the same if I was him. I think compulsive roleblocker sounds way scummier. Either way. Really frustrated that people didn't stick to the plan, it literally made 0 sense not to do it. You are confirmed town IG you get a pass but I want answers from the others.
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Is that the hammer? If not I have one final point to convince you to follow the plan
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I don’t get your logic Wylted. If Austin is scum we win no matter what cuz he guaranteed dies tomorrow. If you are town it only delays one day phase so it makes no sense why that would frustrate you this much. Also how are you THIS sure Austin is town? That’s partly what makes me scum read you so bad. Your calling out that I am changing my reads, remember town doesn’t have inside knowledge. I only think your scum I don’t KNOW your scum and I never insinuated I did. What’s your reaction going to be if he does flip town I’m genuinely curious.
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@whiteflame
As far as claims go, I do want wylteds claim, he hasn’t had enough pressure until this point for him to feel any incentive to give anything though, so I didnt think I’d needed to spell out that we should be getting his claim, thought that was implicit in my vote “I suspect you, anything you can claim that you think will alleviate that pressure might help my viewpoint”.
Though honestly with your claim just how that really limits my POE to just him behaviorally, or I am very wrong about one of my other town reads. Which I am open to. If I’m wrong about wylteds being scum my second guess for scum would HAVE to be supa for being willfully ignorant of the math of Austin’s logic. Like even you admitted that the logic was solid and makes sense, supa is just flat out stubbornly refusing to even acknowledge Austin’s logic or a world where lynching Austin first makes sense even if it’s guaranteed he’s lynched next. You can tell by his responses he won’t actually acknowledge the point which is specifically frustrating, and more frustrating when you are operating as I have under the assumption that he is town.
Starting to think it takes conscious effort to be that willfully ignorant and maybe if it quacks like a duck… it’s a duck.
But yeah wylteds claim will help me determine whether or not he’s still the prime candidate here in my eyes.
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@WyIted
You can't have it both ways and say the plan is too retarded for him to do if he was scum while also calling it a master plan
???
I am not choosing both, I am literally choosing to not believe austin is a retard.
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@Vader
I think it's just different perspectives that you and him see or he sees. We have no clue what the second ability scum may have. He could still have a chance at winning this game and we don't know.From a personality perspective, I don't want to psyche out Austin, but maybe he finally gets mafia after a while and wants to stick with it? Not eager to just end after DP2? Idk I think there's so many answers that realistically won't do shit
If austin is scum here and made a grandmaster plan that lets himself get lynched either way hes just not a good mafia player. You may be willing to go that far to justify everything thats happened, I just can't bite that bullet.
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@Casey_Risk
I think I know what you're softing, Luna, and I'd appreciate it if you told us any info that you have. I'm very reluctant to lynch anyone outside of you and Austin, and if I'm right about my PoE, then we win regardless of what roles there are, as long as we just lynch within the pool.
You guessed my role wrong, I don't have any information for you. And your POE is also wrong too, me and austin are town mate. I don't know how I ended up in your POE after being one of the main pushers of GP dp1m but okay.
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@WyIted
That's why I don't understand why your answer to all this is that "Austin is just a retard" because even you seem to know it makes no sense for him to do that.It's an elaborate wifom thing. Nothing more. You are wifoming yourself to death
I just don't think we've learned all that much from this tomorrow if austin gets lynched and has flipped town. Oh well.
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@WyIted
It's just frustrating from my point of view because you maybe are uncertain of who is scum but from my POV he's scum and it's annoying he wants to delay the game by a single DP.
In what way does this benefit him? Why not just quit if he's scum?
On the off chance he is town it's even more annoying because the town block is so big that the town win is a foregone conclusion so him fighting for something that gives us very little extra advantage feels silly.
That's why I don't understand why your answer to all this is that "Austin is just a retard" because even you seem to know it makes no sense for him to do that.
If I put myself in his shoes than I just get lynched and don't fight it TBH. I think at one point your vote, Austin's and savant was on me this DP and you saw me put up zero fight just because the results of this game are a foregone conclusion and now we are just going through the motions until the inevitable victory.
Why be frustrated at an inevitable victory? Not seeing the con here.
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@WyIted
The doctor flipped before he claimed. So your insinuating the scum austin is just a retardCorrect
How did austin hurt you so bad lol
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Oh yeah and there's a car thief, which confirms the existence of a commuter, just one more thing to add to the list
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@whiteflame
Austin live out the DP, especially considering that we don't have a clear alternative lynch, but I'm also not just going to dismiss it out of hand.
Wylted is the alternative.
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@whiteflame
This implies that the two would never be in the same game together, though I've seen plenty of games designed with town having both these roles. If you want to call those imbalanced, be my guest, but this is not an unusual town composition, particularly with a scum JOAT in the mix to balance a mix of protective roles. Beyond that, while I recognize that both roles function protectively, they're clearly different and are often used entirely differently, with the JK often being used chiefly for its RB rather than its protection. So, no, I don't see an implied CC in this.
To add to this, the faction perk could be used for just the town jailkeeper, accounting for them making townie mistakes, or it could be used to reference GP's strongman which would normally interfere with a protection. Im assuming if pie target was the night kill, his protection from being the hammerer and getting the faction perk would also play into the preventative aspect.
That said I still think it's likely scum could have a roleblock, just saying it doesn't have to mean they have one. Or the remaining scum chose a target who was passive thus not knowing they were roleblocked to even announce it. Or They had to choose between the roleblock or another role. Or it's x shot and they didn't wanna waste it. There's a bunch reasons to explain the lack of another person claiming to be blocked.
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@WyIted
Austin is scum because he is quite literally just claiming a variation of doctor and pie flipped doctor plus POE.
The doctor flipped before he claimed. So your insinuating the scum austin is just a retard and can't come up with literally anything better. Come on, this is just lazy scum play man...
The game is solved and it's pointless to delay this bullshit. I actually find it a bit disrespectful that he is trying to force us to play the game game out by fighting for his life here
Exactly, so why would he if he was scum and his lynch was inevitable?
Here is a Mafia recruiting role called Yakuza that was almost successful because town almost did the retarded thing by delaying the obvious lynch until I stepped in
I am probably the only person (since danielle left the site) that has used this role, and I've never seen it used again. When danielle used it I remember LM complaining that the role was too OP. I don't really think it is, all it does it reset town confirmations and make everyone suspect again, which is powerful, but not gamebreaking. That said, it's not a very common role and I am literally only the second person to use this role ever on this website. Your whole contigency against this plan is based on a variable of a role that has less than a 2% chance of even existing in the game. Even if the role exists, the worst thing to come from this is that we have reset reads tomorrow, as I just pointed out. I think that is a worthy risk for a role that most likely doesn't even exist in the game anyway.
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I've got to drive to work, I can respond more later, but I don't really see the point in hammering this logic down anymore than we have. Vader please stop and think about the plan logically. Austin dies no matter what tomorrow, 0 escape. I don't care if there is no night kill, I will 100% help you lynch austin no matter what. Think about this.
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@WyIted
He's quite obviously scum. Just saying in the one in a million chance he wasn't than you are.
Omgus based logic, otherwise you would bother explaining the read lol
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@Vader
So like I said, he fakes that he caught someone by waiving a kill, what are you going to do then
Lynch austin no matter what. That is the plan and we stick to it. When austin flips town, we have guaranteed scum and the games over. If hes scum we win anyway. It's quite literally a win/win situation if we follow through lynching austin tomorrow regardless. Again this might not even end up being an issue if we lynch wylted here and hes scum we will just outright win the game.
Like uhh, mafia waive the kill to frame someone. Think
Wylted gets the lynch on him, he flips town 5v1Austin waives the kill but as scum RB, hypothetically RB's let's say WFWF get's lynched, 4v1Savant is killed in the NP, 3v1Then it's you, me, austin, casey. If he gets a mislynch off town lose boom comeback of all time
You aren't listening to me. Austin doesn't make it into a LYLO situation period if he gets lynched tomorrow. Which is 100% happening no matter what if wylted isn't scum and we don't just win from lynching him today. There is literally no way austin as scum can win here if we lynch him tomorrow. And we get the benefit of a confirmed player, or confirmed scum. No matter what. Only thing scum can do here to mess with our plan is to just kill austin, which honestly just makes our life easier anyway and saves us a mislynch.
You can promise all you want until he comes in and tries to frame someone with his "JAIL"
Idc, literally if the night kill doesn't go through and he claims he blocked whiteflame, it doesn't matter. I vote austin. If whiteflame is scum he dies the next day and scum lose anyway. This plan is literally unfallible.
I think you can argue the same thing for Wylted
No, because it only specifically applies to austin and his jailkeeper role. Wylted hasn't claimed a role that has a planned contingency to solve the game or narrow POE down with him dying second, as does austin.
VADER LISTEN TO ME. PLEASE. I know you are typing these rebuttals before you are even reading what I am saying, it's clear based on your responses that you aren't getting this. Please stop being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn and hear the idea out. Don't let confirmation bias make a dumb decision for you. This plan it failproof.
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@AustinL0926
I don't think you're bad at reading people in general, I just think you might have a blindspot for Austin in particular.
Maybe, the game you are referencing was a while back and austin was a relatively newer player then. I have had more games played with him. Regardless of how I view his behavior, the logic behind the plan being outlined is pretty flawless. In this plan he gets lynched regardless. We are just reversing the order to pressure wylted first, and no matter what austin dies tomorrow. Even with me fully buying he is town I will follow through with this plan as should everyone else in the off chance he is fooling us. No matter what if austin is scum he loses. If he is town, we get valuable POE and can take scum to the endgame. I literally cannot see the issue with this plan unless there is a very specific recruiting role, which There is 0 basis to believe there is. Recruiting roles are extremely rare here because they don't balance well into 9 player games, you need 15-20 players for those roles not to be considered wildly OP. At most he's a yakuza, which doesn't effect numbers much anyway, but if he was a yak he is retarded for not using it np1 anyway, and the role really doesn't hurt us all that much numbers wise.
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@Vader
So what's stopping Austin from waiving the kill, saying "OMG I JAILKEPT (insert whoever), WE NEED TO VOTE HIM" and then saying "IF YOU VOTE (insert whoever), THEN YOU CAN VOTE ME NEXT DP," take it to MYLO and then try to convince someone that he's not scum and set him up and having you, whoever, and himself as a top 3 with you townreading himYeah GG
There is no risk here. We are lynching austin no matter what next day phase. I PROMISE. I'll lynch him even fully believing he is town. Because the POE this will help us with is much more valuable. There is no reason not to lynch wylted first in this situation trust me. Open your mind to this please!
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@Vader
You don't think Austin is asking strange in anyway?
Behaviorally to me, is a confirmed town. I stand by my opening post to this day phase, I just don't see austin playing this the way he has as scum.
Why would Austin as town be SOO concerned mechanically with not being lynched today when we already lynched 1 scum.
Because if he is town, he can literally help solve the game by narrowing down the scum team with his jailkeep. With his plan he dies no matter what, so even if you think he is scum its a win win for us as town. There's literally no downside to following austins plan here.
I also don't buy that he's confirms anyone. There's so many other options to explain no NK happening if Austin jails someone.
Like what, doctor is already dead?
He can easily just waive a NK and claim they should be lynched and buy himself more time and scum.
Doesn't matter, with his plan we lynch him anyway, if hes scum we win. There is no benefit to him doing this if we lynch him next phase. And I promise I will.
Austin needs to get this mislynch off as scum because then he can say he jailed someone and then push to mislynch them and say "WELL IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME LYNCH ME NEXT DP"
Nope. No matter what with this plan, austin dies the next day phase. Town will have a huge poe pool if austin flips town, and if he dies, he accomplished absolutely nothing but delaying the inevitable by one day phase.
Sorry don't buy it. If I'm wrong then shit I'm wrong and I get why some would sus me but I can't see a logical reason why he would freak out like this when town are clearly advantaged
I think you are town here, I don't blame you for being wrong about this, I just think you aren't seeing the full picture so I am trying to explain it to you there is no downside to this.
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@Vader
Realistically speaking assuming no batshit crazy mechanic is in play, it's a 6v1 right now. Even if austin flips town for some reason, it is LIKELY a 4v1. From there we can put pressure on Wylted.
Why not do this in the reverse order? You help me lynch wylted today, I help you lynch austin tomorrow. Guaranteed. I promise. If I lie, lynch me because I would be scum. I will 100% vote austin with you. If austin is town we can afford his play and we get a town confirm. There is benefit to lynching austin second in this order as opposed to him before wylted.
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@Vader
Jailkeeping does not alignment check at all
Yes it does. There is one scum, a jailkept scum cannot carry out the night kill. If he jailkeeps someone and the night kill happens, that person is confirmed town. Get it?
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@Savant
It might be if it wasn't for the post like a second after. Austin making sure we don't miss his "town slip."
I see a passionate townie.
Also no offense, but the last time I remember you defending Austin like this, he was scum.
Yeah but I was just right about GP last day phase, so I clearly am not wrong all the time.
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@Vader
I mean you can dislike the post but it's likely a 6v1 or 5v1v1 (if there is 3P which I doubt) and you are tweaking out over you being town to a degree I have not seen in a while. Almost as if you are panicking for losing GP in DP1. Why are you even going crazy too? You flip town and it's likely a 4v1 and Wylted becomes a top scum read.
Why would he care so much if scum? Who would want to carry a game like that as scum to the point where it's obvious he would never make it to a lylo situation anyway, he would be delaying the inevitable. There's literally no point, and he is needlessly making his job harder. Think about this. Also why the hell is wylted not scummy to you?
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@Vader
I mean you can dislike the post but it's likely a 6v1 or 5v1v1 (if there is 3P which I doubt) and you are tweaking out over you being town to a degree I have not seen in a while. Almost as if you are panicking for losing GP in DP1. Why are you even going crazy too? You flip town and it's likely a 4v1 and Wylted becomes a top scum read.
Why would he care so much if scum? Who would want to carry a game like that as scum to the point where it's obvious he would never make it to a lylo situation anyway, he would be delaying the inevitable. There's literally no point, and he is needlessly making his job harder. Think about this. Also why the hell is wylted not scummy to you?
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@Savant
The "that's a hammer, i'm town btw" was just very suspicious.
Why? It's NAI at best.
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@AustinL0926
Stay strong with me on the wylted path. We got this. Don't let wylted manipulate town into a needless mislynch.
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@Savant
Yeah just saw that. But you are totally scum.
Bruh how do you 180 degree flip with your reads so much without any explanation
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@Savant
Yeah just saw that. But you are totally scum.
Bruh how do you 180 degree flip with your reads so much without any explanation
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@Vader
VTL AustinI don't know if there is some kind of mechanic that gives scum way too much extra DP time. But at this point Austin has been moving the needle too much. It's pretty obvious he's trying to prevent himself from being lynched at some point. If he was truly town, he wouldn't fight this hard, knowing that we already have 1 mafia killed at this point. Resorting to something of the lines of (Wylted wants to hammer because of some insta win mechanic) just reeks of desperation at this point. As for him psuedo confirming, this is not true at all. There is so many ways that scum can set this up in the favor. Only scum are trying to buy themselves a DP. I don't care what anyone says. I think Austin is just panicking after going down in the lynch and needs to pull off a mislynch to try and shift blame off him. I did the same thing in Choose Your Roles when Savant RB'd me and try to stir it as Savant being a liar.The only reason I am reading Savant as town is because of my role and his role. Not because Austin JK'd him. The logic is flawed and this coming off as pretty desperate from Austin's part
Supa if you are town you are making a mistake brother. Nothing austin is doing makes any sense to do as scum. The logic just isnt there.
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@AustinL0926
betif you don't lynch Wylted tomorrow I will never let you hear the end of it :DVTL Austin
If you are town, don't vote yourself bro
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@Savant
Yeah, risk of recruiting or some secret power is a risk I'm not willing to take at this point. And I'll likely be dead tomorrow, so the only thing I can really control is who I vote for today. WyIted is striking me as town, but if Austin is town and I'm somehow alive tomorrow, he'll be on the chopping block.
When have you ever seen a scum recruiting role?
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@WyIted
If it's not Austin it's lunatic and that would explain why lunatic would delay an Austin lynch. Delaying the Austin lynch by one day, delays his own by 2 or more
If I was scum why would I delay austins lynch? There can only be one more scum member since we hit one. Your logic makes no sense. I get your mad that your getting voted, but omgus doesn't suit you mate.
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@Savant
You could have a recruiting role for all we know.Fair point. This could be the scum benefit. Sorry Austin, it's just not worth the risk.VTL Austin
Recruiting roles are so rare
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Austins dropping some solid points. I don't see him going through all this effort just to be okay with being lynched tomorrow. Sure its wifom, but I just don;t buy him behaviorally as town. And the more I think of it, it really doesn't make sense for him to claim jailkeeper after the doctor flipped unless he was trying to die, which he clearly isn't. I think mharman put this role in hoping it would be a mislynch for balance purposes. IDK I just don't see austin as scum.
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vtl wylted
I guess im happy to be the minority on this one, whiteflame is my second scum read.
Pretty sure yall will just lynch austin, maybe I can convince you on to these two next dp though.
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@Vader
I also will say JK is pretty weird in this game and considering it was used in the last game.
I don't put a lot of stock in this, considering my role was also in the last two games.
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