Total posts: 10,910
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
@AustinL0926
Imo the correct play there for Pie was to just hard bus Luna and try to mislynch me in LYLO considering both WF and Mharman were leaning me as the partner. Going for WF was a serious risk considering I was leaning Luna and Mharman was holding his cards close to hist chest.
I would have recommended pie to do this but I was asleep when he was pinging me about it, and he ended up throwing all the cards down. Oh well
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Cerulean
Good game btw. I know people think my role was OP, but yeah I've used stronger roles than that before. I think tailors or yakuzas are technically worse than that role, but I am still not against using them because at the end of the day behavior should be valued over results, and town proved this game that it was.
Good game yall.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
Yeah gg.Especially to you Lunatic, you saying my results could’ve been messed with (DP2) before Whiteflame did (early DP3) made me second guess my early DP3 townread of him for so long.
I was going to use the strengthener fake claim as a reason to justify why I believed that too, since it was pointed out as a minor reason to sus me in dp2, but of course there actually had to be a strengthener in the game. SMH. Bro I had lylo all planned out and austins claim foiled everything! GG's
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
I forgot to mention, my plan all along was to claim strengthener in LYLO. I was literally typing up my post to claim it, and had a gut feeling to refresh the page before I did, and to my surprise the latest post was you claiming strengthener. I face palmed so hard, that was extremely close. Had to impomptu come up with another fake claim fast af after that. I had a much better case for justifying strengthener than I did for Mudvayne's Ld.50, but yeah, short notice improvised claim, is what it is.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Barney
sounds like the adnan syed case from serial
Created:
Posted in:
Very familiar with this book series, read through it three times as a kid. Roran was my favorite character by far. I was tempted to re-read it again recently but after reading to sleep in a sea of stars, I was discouraged by Paolini. Book was terribly written, I think Paolini needs to stay far away from sci fi and stick with youth fantasy lol.
/in
Created:
Posted in:
Going to sleep for a while might be on for hammer, hopefully yall make the right choice. Gnight.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
In the meantime, I will note that one of you is buddying me.Please tell me why the other person is buddying me, and why you are not.
I think "buddying" implies nefarious intent, but I did think you were town even prior to the fact that me and whiteflame voted each other. I've explained why a multiple times so to not sound like a broken record, the tl;dr version is I just don't see you making a play like that implicating wylted as scum. I am pretty sure scum has a busdriver, and based on how we can account for actions, it basically has to be whiteflame. You and austin can't be buddying based on behavior and results, and you and pie are obviously not scum partners. So you have to be town from my POV. If never having any intention of voting you this phase comes off as buddying, I think you are mis-reading it. But you could also be referring to whiteflame here so IDK, just responding as you asked me to.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Well, I’d say that feeling insane reading these responses is mutual, but we both know it’s not. You and I both know that there is literally no precedent for a role like Miller to be in a game where it is only potentially fucks with a hidden role. That’s why, at every turn, you have refused to provide a single example of a game where that happened, yet you assert that it’s exactly what happened here.
Why is the burden on me to find a game where a 1x miller exists with a cop? I am not arguing against that. My point is that you are claiming a 1x cop, and that you are being a massive hypocrite in saying that one can't exist in caseys role group.
Love that you keep ignoring the likely fact that a compulsive, 6 role JOAT had negative utility roles as though it’s necessarily true, and that you keep arguing that Casey necessarily had a Cop because their roles were just so obvious, despite the fact that you clearly didn’t infer the Cop from Casey’s role list.
So because I didn't correctly guess at the cop role one doesn't exist? There is three roles on that list that sound like investigation style roles, and I just hit wrong. Well the tracker result was useful still, outside of the fact that it is being revealed in LYLO and can be dismissed as WIFOM unless I flip.
Alright, now I’m done. If you want to last word, as you so often do, have at it.
There's like 3-4 post this day phase alone of yours I didn't respond to, letting you "have the last word".
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
In terms of behavior, I think both WF and Luna have posted and argued broadly well. That's not too difficult for any good scum player to fake. However, going back through the arguments, I feel that Luna has materially misrepped WF at several points and I also dislike the logic of "being off mislynch" = town - in fact, having a perfect voting record is often more scummy than not, because scum like to not take the flak for a mislynch and let town do the dirty work.
For one, its literally the only case I can make against him. From my POV I know I am town, and I know that a tracker exists because I literally used it on pie. So the fact that whiteflame is CC'ing me with that is almost near confirmation that he is scum to me. But you are right, whiteflame has played well, and we are both resorting to WIFOM to try to make a case for ourselves. The same way you don't like the WIFOM of me not being on lynches, I don't like the WIFOM of my "justification is too straightfoward" because that is something I literally cannot control, the mod gave me my PM, and I am guessing knew little of the band I claimed outside of doing a bit of cursory research on google. Or the way whiteflame argues that the existence of a miller can only exist on a non-hidden JOAT. It's complete WIFOM, but its wifom you are choosing to believe. Is me not being on mislynches the most convincing argument in the world? Probably not, but at the end of the day niether is his WIFOM arguments. But I disagree that scum don't have incentive to be on lynches, because I could have easily justified lynching both mislynch targets based on the circumstances and if questioned would have been logically sound in my defense for voting either of them. It's clear that I wasn't around dp1, but you don't think if I was mafia my scum partner couldn't have been spam pinging me to get on to at least vote GP? It would have been incredibly easy to do so. I was also one of the only ones last night not buying the either or situation between WF and mharman, where whiteflame went over and above to explain why wylted was scum, when it was obvious that wylted was being lynched for being on mharmans report. It's almost the exact thing earth was sussing whiteflame for when he pointed out that whiteflame was over explaining himself, and was why he was FOS'ing him convienently before he died just before mylo. All this can be dismissed as WIFOM sure but I just don't understand why your dismissing my WIFOM over his, when he is literally claiming a second JOAT and CC'ing at LYLO, and somehow thats easier for you to buy than all the more obvious wifom in whiteflames direction. If you are town here, I advise you reconsider everything I have said, because the game is at stake if you vote me over whiteflame.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Apparently, one more response is necessary.What‘a different - and I’ve said this so many times it’s starting to lose all meaning - is that the existence of a HIDDEN COP as the entire basis for the existence of a Miller role is the problem. Not the existence of ANY COP. Please, if you’re going to respond to me, at least respond to the whole point rather than cherry-picking words out that don’t help your case.
I don't see how it being hidden makes a difference at all. It's a JOAT with 6 freaking abilities. That's powerful af regardless of whether the abilities are known or unknown, and you can generally infer for the most part what the abilities do, IE how I figured out one was investigative based on it's title.
Also, please note again, my case allows for the possible existence of a hidden Cop, it just doesn’t bank entirely on that being the sole reason for the Miller to exist. Again, can you find a single game where a Miller existed for solely this purpose? I’ll wait.
Again this literally applies to your claim too.. smh we are talking in circles at this point. We know a miller exists, and if you aren't lying then you should know for a fact that this game literally has a miller to counter a 1x cop, because that is exactly what you are claiming. The amount of WIFOM you expect people to believe that it should only apply towards clearing you and not apply to the KNOWN FLIPPED JOAT in the graveyard is absolutely insane. You have to know you are making an insane point here. I feel insane for even responding to you and encouraging this blapshemous behavior from you lol. I know you are just trying to win, but I actually admire the length you are going to WIFOM here. Maybe you are hoping no one is reading this exchange? Probably. That's why I've been ignoring most of this crap. I happen to have the time and am bored so I am indulging in it because there is nothing better to do, but seriously this argument is so redudant.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
@Cerulean
I dont need an extension but I'll approve a vote for it if mharman needs it. I've said all there really needs to be said and laid out my case against whiteflame as best I can.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
You must be right that Casey had both a 1X Cop and a 1X Tracker, the former of which you couldn’t possibly know. Just because Casey had 6 roles does not mean that they had these two specific roles, and the notion that I somehow have to prove that Casey didn’t have them is fucking baffling.
It's really not that baffling. Your claiming a secondary JOAT with a CC of an ability used by a confirmed dead JOAT. Naturally any strong PR claims coming out in LYLO are suspicious, its doubly suspicious because a JOAT is confirmed to exist already. Obviously you can't prove anything, just like I can't prove that casey had a tracker ability outside of knowing that he did because it was the night action I used. But trying to pretend you don't have the burden to try and convince people to just take your word for it is absolutely insane. Come on WF, you know what I am saying is true. You acting as if people are just supposed to take your word for this is completely ridiculous.
It’s even more baffling to me that, assuming Casey did have these two roles, a hidden role (the Cop) was a basis for making a player a Miller. Again: has anyone ever heard of a single game where a hidden role on a JOAT became the entire basis for a negative utility role in that same game to exist? No one has answered this, yet Luna’s point is absolutely banking on it being true.
THATS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR DOING THO. You are claiming a 1x cop. You are also suggesting that a miller exists for you, an apparent 1x cop. How are you missing this point?!?!??!?!
Created:
Posted in:
Last reminders:
I haven't been on a single mislynch. WF may not have voted him due to wylted quickhammering himself, but he had every intention to and went above and beyond to make it clear that he would, even though it was fairly obvious the main reason to lynch wylted was purely mechanical.. It was as if he was trying overtly to justify his position so it wouldn't look scummy when he knew wylted would inevitably flip town. I mentioned from the get go that I thought the results were odd and never went the direction that mharman or wylted was lying on the other hand, because behaviorally it made 0 sense to me. I'll drop the mechanical arguments since mharman doesn't wanna focus on it, and alot of it is just guessing what the mod would or wouldn't do and what roles do or do not exist.
Lastly earth had whiteflame on his radar and was immediately killed for it. Think about it, if you are whiteflame and scum who else do you kill? Earth made it clear in at least three posts that whiteflame was his biggest suspicion, whiteflame does not want to go into LYLO with earth scum reading him.
I leave you with those two behavioral arguments, not really much else to say at this point that we haven't already hashed out.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Well, I'm done arguing the points at this stage. I really don't understand dispensing with a basic mechanic like the existence of a Miller in the game without a known Cop, but here we are.
This argument literally applies to you too brother. I get wanting to win, but the logical inconsistency here is very odd coming from you. Literally the only point you can make is that the dead 6x JOAT doesn't have the 1x cop ability which you have absolutely no way of proving, you just have to WIFOM bs a reason for them to buy it, but saying a miller can't exist for casey is a tough sell.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
Assuming Whiteflame is scum, who is the most likely teammate?
I have no clue. I town read you for reasons mentioned previously, but its mostly based on WIFOM. It's hard to see pie as a the partner with my result lining with his claim, unless he got extremely lucky. Austin is being sussed by WF, so if it's austin then WF is bussing. I don't have a hard read on the partner at the moment.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
I'm still heavily leaning town on WF just for Wylted's Miller. It specifically mentions alignment investigations, which precludes Tracker shenanigans. I don't buy that it exists solely to counter a single one of Casey's abilities. I find it much more likely that there's a specific role, i.e. WF's, which investigates alignments.
whiteflame is literally claiming 1x cop, when we already have a flipped 6x JOAT. Your telling me you don't think a cop ability exists in any of those 6 abilities, and that a 2x investigative JOAT exists along side a 6x JOAT?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
A. None of what you've said here follows from that statement. I said that your case against me necessitates that Casey must have had at least two hidden investigative roles - Tracker and Cop - and that WyIted's Miller role exists solely for the purpose of being negative utility to the latter.
From my POV it has to, based on the visits with mharmans role and not accounting for the busdriver. The case town can buy into is that a 2x investigative JOAT is unlikely to exist when theres a 6x godly JOAT, I already have reason to suspect your claim is bs based on the fact that you are likely the busdriver.
B. My point was never that Casey had no investigative roles. I've said it a few times in different ways, but I'll state it concisely here: Casey could most definitely have had investigative roles, it just doesn't follow that Casey's investigative roles would necessarily be Tracker and Cop.
Either way your admitting to crazy balance scheme that is just less likely to exist, two powerful JOATS with investigative abilities, or the more likely option... You didn't claim an investigative role til LYLO because it seemed safe to do so. It just doesn't add up.
Your case is reliant on those two existing among Casey's roles, despite not knowing what any of those roles are based on the flip. Even with my claims, Casey could have had anything from a Watcher to a Lie Detector that wouldn't have been CC'd by me.
Like I said above it also mentions that your visit on np1 was unnacounted for when we know a manipulation role exists. From My pov it cant be austin, likely isnt pie, and wasn't mharman. Who else could have manipulated the result? Pie technically under the circumstances both are results on him were extremely convenient and lucky for him. I'll admit it's possible I just don't buy it.
Don't have time to really respond to the rest, but i got the glaring lies from whiteflame addressed.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
Alright, I have like a minute and based on what I’ve read, here’s a question I would like everyone to answer because it will help move everything along:Does everyone here think I am town?I ask because from my POV, it makes the game clearer. If I am town, the scum line is exactly Austin/Mharman and Lunatic/Whiteflame. One from each of the pools. Everyone in this game is capable of bussing their partners and everyone has something going against them but I haven’t heard much about how I am scum. If we all agree that I am town, I can lead the town (will be hard cause my girl won’t let me use my phone, but I’ll sneak it somehow). I just need each of you to post your exact scum team and reasons why. I will analyze all the DPs. All the information, and make a post with my vote on Sunday at some point. Right now everything is so convoluted we don’t know who to believe, so I am proposing this.
I am hesitant in LYLO to call anyone town confirmed, but it would be pretty hard to justify lynching you based on my result lining up with your claim. Also I think WF is scum and I kind of think he was trying to use your result to get town cred. You would have to be exactly the godfather to be scum, or maybe lucky enough to use a ninja last night. It's possible, but for now it just kind of seems more likely that you would be town I guess. You aren't immediately on my radar.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
@Mharman
@AustinL0926
Interesting in whiteflames response, in regards to point number 1 he basically is scum slipping.
There is a Miller in the game solely to act as negative utility to an unknown, compulsive, 1X role Casey had
This is literally the role he is claiming, a 1x investigator, with a 1x tracker. Again, like I said in my analysis this is whiteflame trying to sell the existence of two joat's, one with 6 abilities, none of which can be investigative, for it is HE who is the actual investigative role. See the problem with this?
His second point responding is more engagement around WIFOMing that the mod is engaging in bastard mechanics. He shames me for not discussing this with him more, but why would I? Bastard mechanics are the whole narrative upon which he is selling how things could have worked, why would I or anyone buy that cerulean, a first time mod who has gained respect as a player in this community would randomly punish town by fvcking with their results, over believing that a bus driver exists?! A busdriver is a fairly common role. He doesn't want you to believe this, because it's probably exactly what happened when he bus drove himself with wylted DP 2. He doesn't want you to believe this because then it clears mharman as a mislynch target and also makes austin look good, who he is also trying to paint as a mislynch target.
Trying to accuse me of lying about him being on the wylted lynch is funny. Yeah maybe his actual vote didn't get placed on wylted, but that doesn't negate the posts I pointed out. Wylted being impulsive as he was stole the ability for whiteflame to hammer, but whiteflame had every intention of doing it, so does him not actually doing it matter when he basically indicated he would in this post: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12102-albums-mafia-track-two?page=5&post_number=121
"If someone else wants to hammer you in the time it takes me to come back, so be it."
This was another easy mislynch for mafia that whiteflame was ready and willing to take advantage of after basically getting a free lynch on GP. Again I was on neither of these mislynches, and had plenty of oppertunity to be on either of them, and could have justified both as well. I was posting about my activity dp1, if I had a mafia partner pinging me I could have easily voted GP with little justification, and didn't because I generally wasn't caught up or aware of what was going on, something that mafia have the luxury of having a partner for.
Whiteflame's story here stinks bad, and points in all directions of him being scum. I won't be on til later on today as I will be asleep, I imagine Whiteflame will use that oppertunity to control the narrative, but I don't really have much more to say about it anyway, so the fate of the game is in your hands, pie, austin, mharman. One of you is scum, but that's a problem for tomorrow. Today we should be lynching whiteflame. I am more than happy to wait until sunday to vote as per mharman, no rush here.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
I suppose “I am the truth from which you run” could be investigative. I guess if it is one, it would be a tracker.I gotta ask: Why not choose “I give you all you need to know?”
because it sounded more like an overall information type of ability, where the one after it felt like an actual investigation based on it's adjective. I give you all you need to know could be more obtuse information, maybe give game design info or something, which might still be useful, but truth from which you run sounded more like a cop/robber situation, and I thought it was a cop ability and was hoping to get an innocent or guilty verdict on my target. Denial, guilt, and fear also sounded investigative, but lacking the adjective I wasn't really as sure on that one, so I stuck with the one that sounded safest as an investigation role to me. The hate in which you hide, I figured was either a hider or hated for a day, lover in your bed sounded like maybe either a protective role, or a role that could screw you over by tying you to the night kill or lynch target, and silencing machine seems like a silencer.
Created:
Posted in:
I didn't want to jump straight into a WF case because of OMGUS, but actually the more I think about it the more I think it has to be whiteflame. First off, I believe mharman. The argument that he would have faked all that to get a mislynch on wylted is wild. Not out of the realm of possibility for other players, but mharman's whole appeal to me in the last game we played together is "I don't take risks like that as mafia" and at the end of they day he was right and was town Ultimately we lynched him there because of a CC, but I had dismissed him before due to wifom, and I don't want to do that again. Also there are too many other variables to dismiss as well if we are to assume mharman is scum, for one the austin result which happens to line up with what austin claimed he did.
So if I am to assume mharman is telling the truth, then the only situation where wylted could have been messed with is if there was a busdriver, no one besides whiteflame has offered an alternative to this theory, and ultimately I just dis-agree with whiteflames interpretation of cerulean openly admitting to bastard modding, its not even worth debating in my eyes, we just got done with a bastard game that people were generally so unhappy with they wanted to just skip to the next game after dp1, and cerulean is just going to blatantly bastard mod the very next game, not to mention his first game, after being considered a very serious player here by our community? I don't buy it, and I still think the mechanics he was referring to are in reference to role mechanics, not mod mechanics designed to arbitrarily fvck with town. So for the bus driver theory to work, someone else HAD to visit mharman with austin and bus themselves with wylted. Austin is already accounted for on that lynch, earth said he didn't visit him (plus we know he's town), my results seem to indicate that pie is a passive role like he claims, so from my perspective the only other living player that could have been behind the visit is whiteflame who bussed himself with wylted to get a mislynch.
So this is the major reason for my case against whiteflame but here is the rest of my case outlining why this is him.
2 Town JOAT's and the miller
Whiteflames major claim to innocence for himself is the fact that he is claiming an investigative role (cop) and that there can't be a miller without a cop. Even if you look past the fact that this claim was made in LYLO, you now have to factor in that we already know there is a JOAT that is flipped in the graveyard. Whiteflame believes his result on pie reflects pie's innocence, however my result goes even farther and shows pie not visiting anyone, which would be a wild guess if I am scum unless I was a scum scout, or pie was my scum partner. The fact that I have a tracker result though indicates that a second tracker DOES exist despite the fact in some regard though, unless whiteflame wants to take back believing his result and innocence on pie, unless he would like to justify pie as a ninja who can self lawyer, or just a godfather and claim my result is lucky as hell. So tell me what is more believable, and what we see more often in these mafia games. That there is 2 JOAT's on the town side, or a town JOAT and more likely one mafia JOAT?
Yes think casey had all the investigative abilities in his role PM. The dude has 6 abilities, and your telling me there is a second JOAT on top of that with separate JOAT abilities? Again how often do you see that in these type of games? It is way more likely mafia noticed there were no investigative roles claimed, and picked up on the fact that casey was likely holding them all, and hoped to use the cop claim for confirmation, and I think WF improvised CC'ing the tracker to pursue a mislynch. There is no real reason to lie about that, and its extremely convenient to CC like that in MYLO. Whiteflame wants us to believe there are two town JOATS with 8 abilities between them all.
Earth suspected whiteflame before he died.
In post 40 earth calls out WF as sus, clarifying in 45 that it is suspicious that whiteflame double clarifies something he considered to be obvious, which whiteflame shortly after admits to as being unnecessary. Earth later puts whiteflame closest to the bottom of his list next to pie of suspects in post 60. Earth dies last night. I mentioned in post 64 already how I thought this was suspicious, but if whiteflame is scum he doesn't want to head into LYLO with someone who scum reads him, so earth is the obvious kill for him there.
Whiteflame was on both mislynches
Normally I wouldn't place a ton of stock into an argument like this, mislynches happen, and sometimes theres very solid reasoning for town to participate on a mislynch. But whiteflame is the one who made this a one v one here, and ultimately both of us have to resort to wifom as there isn't really hard mechanics that confirm one of us or the other is mafia here. I haven't been on a single mislynch, and even was hesitant to lynch Wylted last day phase. Whiteflame was one of the biggest advocates behind mharman on that lynch (mharman makes sense given it was his results) but whiteflame went out of his way to push a case on wylted in posts 106 and 111 last day phase which seems overtly unneccesary given mharmans results and the fact that Wylted was probably dying anyway. It's as if he felt the need to over explain the reason he was lynching him because he knew wylted was town, and now since he's made this big case, can go back and justify being wrong about it because at least there was logic behind it. No one else was really pushing mharman this way who was on his wagon, they were literally just lynching off of results. Whiteflame was also the first person on greyparrots wagon, where we literally just had a game where grreyparrot gave up dp1 and allowed himself to be lynched. I know other people were on that lynch too, and maybe the lynch can ultimately be blamed on greyparrot, but mafia DOES have incentive to take advantage of these lynches. Absent as I was dp1, you don't think my scum partner would have been pinging me and telling me to at least make a minimal post to take advantage of an easy mislynch? It is rather obvious I was completely unaware of dp1 to the point where I couldn't have participated on that lynch, where as if I was scum I could let my scum partner fill me in on how to board the wagon and that I wouldn't appear scummy by doing so. I am presenting this more as an either/or argument than a catch all. Whiteflame has also prepared WIFOM arguments against me about not only my claim but about what "caseys role would actually" be so I expect plenty of WIFOM to come in the opposite direction.
This is all I really have though right now, and it's not the strongest case. If I am wrong about whiteflame I am willing to accept responsibility for it in the endgame, but ultimately I agree with whiteflame that it is probably unlikely for more than one investigative JOAT to exist. I am only asking you to believe the one that's already flipped, instead of buy into the narrative that town has 2 JOAT's, on top of a self watcher, a mason, and a doctor.
Who is whiteflames partner? I don't have the answer for that. I was leaning austin at first, but I am going away from that theory based on the fact that whiteflame is bussing him if he is, but not completely against it either. Austin has a visit a mharman though that looks good for him, though it's not entirely possible he couldn't have visited mharman and carried out the night kill, depending on how ceru mods. I highly doubt it is mharman for reasons I mentioned earlier, but it is a possibility. For it to be pie, from my POV pie would have to exactly be a passive role maybe a godfather or something, which would make sense with whiteflames result. But that possibility is just as likely as any of the other two options, and it does work out well that pie isn't a visiting role that can account for a night kill np1 unless he was an x shot and already used it. I don't know who whiteflame's partner is, but the only one I really don't think it is, is mharman.
For now I will settle on whiteflame as my prime scumread though based on all of the above, and am ready to throw down the gauntlet with him whenever.
Created:
Posted in:
Got a CPR training I have to do right away. It will be at least another hour.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I won't be on til tonight to really respond to anything in depth here, but you realize how much of a stretch that is to say that is a CC when casey was essentially a JOAT right? Also even if we were to buy that it was a CC, you are doing this at MYLO so it should be completely taken with a grain of salt. I am not going to argue what you thought caseys role sounded better as, I was told by the mod it was a tracker plain and simple, so debate in that area is pretty pointless.
If all we are "clearing" you off of though is the existence of a miller, but you are also arguing that the mod included bastard mechanics like "anti-claims" it's interesting you are dead set on believing its not bastard but willing to use the logic that a miller can't exist without more than a 1x cop (which is essentially what you are), and potentially essentially something casey has in my example I used that you tried advocating againt.
Anyways I don't like WF's claim, but I am not going to omgus him, I'll sleep on it and post later tonight. I am still unwilling to dismiss what's going on with the busdriver thing.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ILikePie5
Hey guys sorry for not responding to anything. I drove to Austin for the girls birthday and then she literally took away my phone. I’ll catch up when she goes to class.
We just need you to full claim for now, you can catch up anytime.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
We know the Miller exists, so the question is not whether a Cop exists, but what type of Cop. If it seems odd that a Miller exists solely for the purpose of balancing a 1X Cop, then it would necessarily be even odder if the Miller existed solely for the purpose of balancing one of Casey's unknown roles, which would just be a hidden 1X Cop.
I kind of half ceded this point already, so it's not really worth debating, but it is technically possible for a miller to exist for a 1x cop. I'll give you the point though that it's probably unlikely.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
We know that WyIted basically gave away his role DP1. Maybe he thought he was being clever with that whole "opposite of the opposite of a Miller" nonsense, but I'm guessing that Cerulean took that as a role claim. He also claimed his album, Bad, in DP1. It would not surprise me if the punishment were something like "WyIted now has the hidden role of Sleepwalker, which automatically visits another player independent of his Neighborizer visit". I know this is spit-balling, but this is also in the first OP:
I think that leans into the realm of bastard modding, and I am not really sold that is the way it was meant to be interpeted. I figure it is more of "you don't wanna claim your character because mafia might have a role that can effect character claims" or something rather than an invasive mechanic included by the mod.
but this is also in the first OP:There are mechanics in this game that may cause Night feedback to be incorrect or missing.That definitely includes the Miller, but I don't think Cerulean would have included this specific bit of information just to let town know that a Miller is likely in this game, especially if there's a Tracker role also in play. Maybe this is meant to point to the existence of the Bus Driver and it was used the way Luna described, though even that could be a "punishment" inflicted by granting scum an extra role to use during NP1 based on WyIted's or GP's claims.
I think the wording of "mechanics" is what is causing this paranoia, but like I said above, I'd assume that was a player role like, lawyer, framer, tailor, something like that rather than something the mod would just randomly include to punish town arbitrarily. Otherwise town would have abilities that should counter mafia inherently, again bastard, and I really don't think that is what ceru meant by any of that. Maybe I am wrong, but It seems like a bigger stretch to believe the adverse.
Created:
Posted in:
Under the bus driver theory though, the other kind of hole in my logic is that austin cant be the mafia that bus drove with wylted, so basically both mafia would have to have visited you, which is possible, but kind of weird to me.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
In simple terms here is how I can see what happened np1 making sense:
Austin visited, mafia member visited you. Mafia member bus drives themselves with wytlted, so your results then show austin visiting you, and wylted visiting you.
The only thing that doesn't make sense is if austin strengthened you, your results should have worked past a manipulation role. So, either he is lying, you are lying, or for some reason cerulean doesn't allow strengthener to work on your role. Which is why I am having him ask ceru how is role works with yours, but I imagine if he was scum austin would just lie about the answer here anyway. Still worth asking I suppose and we can evaluate that based on the feedback. But if it comes down to one of you lying, I am leaning you being the townie here, because for one I think you would have understood the bus driver stuff better if you were scum, seeing as it's like the only thing that explains your actions here. And secondly, because you made a huge point in the last game we played about how you don't like taking big risks like that as mafia, and in the end you were right and town. That would be a major mix up from this game. That is still wifom reasoning, but at the end of the day that was a pretty ballsy move of you if you were scum, and part of me doesn't see you doing that. Something isn't lining up with austin though, unless I am just wrong about how strengthener works.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
Hm, we’re using two different wikis here but they say the same thing, MS just words it differently than MU. It would mean seeing my role, despite being passive, as an action that can be bus driven despite that I have no targets that could get target swapped.I guess I passively target myself , so maybe people who target me become targets?
Where we are getting mixed up is that I am not suggesting that YOU yourself were bus driven, but that wylted was bus driven with a mafia member who visited you.
Created:
Posted in:
The Bus Driver is a role that can choose to switch two players each night. Thus, any night action performed on a switched player will affect the other player targeted by the Bus Driver. The Bus Driver's night choices are only valid for that same night.
Bus driver in the wiki works just like I explained though, where it effects actions on a player, rather than actions performed by a player, so it still can be an explanation for your role, just doesnt factor in austins claimed actions
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
Wait, does it even matter how my results were screwed up?
Well the alternative to your results being screwed up is you were lying, so I'd say yes, theorizing possibilities to how your role was impacted should be very important.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
what do you mean by anti claim what is that Ive never heard that term?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
I just noticed I didn’t finish that last post.Like I get what you’re saying: what happened to scum, displayed as happening to Wylted, including being seen by me.But I’m not sure if it works that way with a passive role. I didn’t actively target Wylted. So Wylted being swapped with scum may not mean much. I also don’t know how their results are given… for example, your theory requires me to believe they immediately knew what I was. That requires them to have fast results on a day role cop, or a night role cop that they get results from before the have to lock in other night actions of theirs. Or they made an incredible read… which, I don’t know how.What’s stopping my results from being screwed on some anticlaim bullshit, instead of your theory?
Well first of all what other roles explain the mishap with your results? The only one I can think of is busdriver. But maybe I am missing one
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
Also - can you explain this? I don't see how that hints to an investigative role at all because I can't give any results when I'm dead, so who I investigated doesn't matter. Being an investigative role wouldn't give me more accurate reads lol.
"If I die tonight, my legacy is pretty clear, just listen to it, I was killed for a reason."
Seemed like you were trying to say you thought you would be killed because you were softing an investigation role or something, and thought mafia would kill you to prevent you from clearing someone. I mostly skimmed dp1, but I did pick up on that post. If you were strengthener, I just don't really understand what you were trying to accomplish with that post.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
There is a dead Miller and I’m the only claimed Cop in this game. My role does certainly seem to have more to it than others that have been claimed/flipped, but unless Pie has been a Cop all along, WyIted’s flip should be a pretty strong consideration in whether you believe my role claim.
Fair, but one of casey's abilities could also be a cop ability. That said does a miller exist for a 1x cop ability? Anyways I acknowledge that the reason for doubting your role is kind of bad to begin with, just that it seems town is pretty powerful with everything claimed so far, plus what we've seen in the grave. But like I said, ceru did say it was a role madness game and mafia could have counters to everything for all we know.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
as in whether my role could strengthen somebody who would otherwise be bus driven? Yeah, I can ask Cerulean.
Or ask how it would function with a gramps, or whatever the title it is that mharman claimed. Because on paper, your strengthen should have meant he got accurate results, shouldn't it have? Regardless of any mafia tamperings...
Created:
Posted in:
Alright we still need pie to claim stat, but while we are waiting on that i'll give some input. Role-wise, nothing really screams "has to be scum" to me yet.
Let's go down the list and weigh the good bad and ugly though.
Mharman: For mharman to be scum, I have to believe that he would have risked a huge gambit last day phase and hoped it would pay off in not getting him lynched today. I was already kind of doubtful that he would lie about his results last day phase. That whole situation between him and wylted seemed very "both parties are innocent here, mafia pulled some sh1t". The thing is I can't actually think of what mafia would have done to pull this off. Wylted claimed his action actually went to casey, which means he couldn't have been redirected which would have been the number one theory.
The bus driver theory: I brought this up last day phase, but one way that wylted could have been telling the truth at the time was with a bus driver. As far as I am aware a bus driver only impacts actions used against the person, not the actions they used. I never got the chance to respond to wylteds post 96, where he asked if a busdriver would effect his result of literally being told he had visited casey, but in theory, no a busdriver wouldnt have effected him. For a bus driver to have worked, mafia had to have visited mharman and bus drove themselves with wylted, which would have effected the results, since mharman is essentially a self watcher, he actually saw the mafia and austin visit himself, but the bus drive would have made it so wylted actually appeared on the result.
What makes this whole theory really interesting is the fact that austin claimed to be strengther which leads me into....
Austin: If austin is strengthener then we know that mafia have some role impeding ability. Roleblocker is the first to come to mind, but since I am already on topic of a bus driver, I have to wonder how strengther would impact a bus drive, since a bus driver doesn't actually impede an action. I am guessing if austin had strengthened mharman though, mharman would have had to have accurate results, meaning that somehow wylted did visit him. So either I am not understanding how busdriver works, or some other role is at foul play here that I completely don't understand. But for austin to be scum I have to buy that he and mharman are exactly the scum team, something which he did draw attention to already. I am not entirely willing to dismiss this. I am also willing to admit there could be another role at play here that I don't know about, considering cerulean comes from a different mafia background and might be privy to knowing more roles that I do not know about. And again, I would have to buy that they went for a huge WIFOM gambit last day phase for this to be true. I am willing to keep this scum team as an option, but it feels a little too "easy" for my liking.
The last thing I will say about austin is I am a bit surprised with the strengthener claim mainly because I didn't get that from his final post in dp1, I felt like he was hinting at some investigative role and trying to tell us who he investigated in case he dies. Strengthener does feel a bit off kilter after that.
Pie: I don't have a ton to say about pie, other than he looks good right now based off of two investigative results, he would have to be exactly godfather for him to be scum here, which isn't something I am dismissing out of hand yet. But the fact that he isn't seen visiting the kill is also extremely helpful. He could be a ninja I suppose, though if he is a ninja or had an x shot ninja it is extremely convienent it was used tonight instead of last night, and we have no other evidence to suggest more than one watcher/tracker ability (Taking mharman into account). Pie's overall activity seemed a little more lacking than usual this game, but his push on wylted seemed fairly typical of pie's town play. I would suggest he and whiteflame could also be a scum team but I also have results that indicate relative innocence. I am going to keep pie null until he claims further, but I don't have any immediate reason to scum read him at this time, other than POE, but everyone is in POE for me right now.
Whiteflame: Two things ping me with whiteflame. 1. His role feels pretty OP combined with mharmans, mine, and casey's. That doesn't neccesarily mean it's too good to be true, cerulean did say this was a rolemadness game and we can probably deduce scum has pretty powerful roles to and potentially counters to everything we have. We already know some fvckery happened with mharmans results. 2. Earth was suspicious of whiteflame last day phase, earth happens to die last night. Could be coincidence, could be mafia framing WF, or could just be WF getting rid of who he thought was the biggest threat. Behaviorally other than that I don't have a ton against WF, I tend to find him hard to read in general, but as of right now those are my two biggest issues with WF, both of which are more or less based on WIFOM and I can't really expect WF to defend against that.
I don't have any glaring scum reads on anyone right now, I feel like I missed all of DP1, and 2 got rushed, so I really want to pace this phase out and participate a lot more and get a feel for scum tells, because it seems this is mylo, and we have to get it right. I have exactly 50% of of lynching correctly this phase, so I would like to make a more calculated decision based on peoples behaviors.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
Can you ask how your role would work with a bus driver?
Created:
Posted in:
give me two hours, when I get settled into work I will be able to post more
Created:
Posted in:
Hey all, I really wouldn't have recommended wylted hammer himself last day phase, though it probably would have ended with him being lynched anyways, we had a lot left we could have discussed and could have been dissuaded off the lynch. It is what it is I guess.
I am in the POE, so I will full claim. I am LD.50, an album from Mudvayne (a hardcore numetal band from the early 2000's who I saw perform late last year and they fvcking killed it). One of their hit songs that made them take off from that album was "Dig", thus I am a 1x "gravedigger" and have the ability to "Dig up a dead player and use an ability of theirs". I basically only had the option to dig up casey np1, so I used my ability on him and greyparrots seemed like a waste. I chose his "I am the truth from which you run" ability and used it on pie, figuring it was an investigative role.
I was told last night after using it that it was a tracker, and that pie had visited no one.
I was debating using it between pie and whiteflame, since both were POE for me after last day phase.
Created:
Posted in:
Yeah ngl part of me finds it weird that wylted is dying on this hill. I feel like as scum he would have just tried to say he made a fail gambit or something. Sticking to his guns about the visit is interesting to me. If wylted does flip innocent we should look into the idea that there is a busdriver or something. If a busdriver flipped wylted and someone else, then what he is saying is possible. I don't think we dismiss the results on that slim theory, but I am just suggesting that if for some reason wylted is innocent, we don't just turn around and flip mharman, because on the flipside, it also makes no sense for mharman to to risk a gamble like that as mafia.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Alright, last post for the night will be this response then.Mharman threw down the gauntlet with his claim and started the DP off by VTLing WyIted, so based both on the result of his role and his behavior, I rule him out.Pie has been on the WyIted bandwagon since the last DP. I wouldn't put it past him to do a bus like this, but I just don't see him sustaining it like this, so that is more of a behavioral read.Earth pushing for a claim from WyIted last DP when he clearly wasn't ready to give one doesn't scream teammates to me. Again, more behavioral, but it's more based on likely team dynamics.And Austin is more based on Mharman's results and my behavioral reads of him from the last DP.Hence, we are all that remains. It's likely that reads on me are strictly behavioral at this point.
I guess the logic makes sense given what we have and know atm, my only issue with it is knowing I am town, but obviously that wouldn't apply to your POE. But we can hash that out after wylted gets lynched, because at this point I think that is the fairly obvious lynch.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Anyway, I'm off for the night. Looks like Luna's posting and I'd like to see more from him regardless.
Is there mechanical POE that clears everyone but me and you or are you talking strictly behavior? If the latter I guess that is fair considering my absence.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Mharman
Clouds- The Mixtape by NF.
I like your taste in music btw
Created: