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@JoeBob
It shouldn't take you this long to be able to confirm your predecessors previous night actions lol. Go on, wake your mafia buddy up and beg him to tell you what to say
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@ILikePie5
See my math in my post.Right now it’s 5-2.If we mislynch today, it’s game over cause at 3-2 LYLO, Ceru votes with scum and game is over. If we lynch him now, we don’t have to worry about him and have more POE tomorrow as well. It’s objectively a good thing to policy lynch him right now.
Yeah honestly no real way to get him to vote with us in a MYLO situation other than hope he sticks to his word. We might not have a choice but to just go to LYLO. 2 scum will still be alive, but at least the POE will be strong enough that it's very likely you will hit one. Hopefully.
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@JoeBob
please clarify what your full role is, and what you (barney) did last night. Please and thankyou.
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@Casey_Risk
Fair enough, that's a decent point. I guess the only other person who hasn't claimed yet is Wylted, and he's town in my book. I won't put Pie at L-1 unless he becomes really stubborn, but I suppose pressuring him for a claim isn't such a bad idea.
He (wylted) claimed ascetic.
So we have an ascetic, a Jailkeeper, and a Commuter. Three roles that deal with preventing actions happening/ blocking.
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@Casey_Risk
You mean you weren't told what ability Magic was? That's not how I know Dreaming God to work. And Earth didn't tell me anything, so your guess as to what it did is as good as mine.
Wait, you weren't given anything?
Thats super sus.
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@WyIted
they didnt block you though. They redurected you to me after you said you could cc one of mharmans claims (cop was one) . You also threw shade at cerulean prior to the end of the dp. So why redirect you if Cerulean is not on the scum team?
Like I said, I could have just been out right role blocked. Earths follow up answer said I would be told my action would fail if I was roleblocked. I guess I could have been redirected to you, but its just as likely that I was roleblocked.
Skippy claimed jailkeep
Yeah and he said he didn't target me. I still have to figure out whether I buy a town jailkeeper and a town ascetic. I might because of how OP me, whiteflame, and mharmans roles are together, maybe all the neg utility of you, casey and skipper makes up for it. And apparently a dreaming god, which hopefully casey can confirm when he gets back on.
But yeah right now the biggest unknown here is pie.
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@Casey_Risk
Eh, I'm not really a fan of mass claiming on DP2 unless the town just gets lucky and kills scum DP1. I think behavioral and mechanical analysis ought to be prioritized. Both of those lead me to Barney.
I suggest it because our major investigative roles are already outed, or dead. The only other thing I can think of us maybe risking is a potential protective role, and there might not even be one because mharman had a 1x doctor ability. Earth's prior two games only had bodyguard's also. If there is another protective role, I am guessing it's a weak one given the existence of the 1x doc.
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@Cerulean
Sigh.You didn't answer my question, by the way - why do you think you're alive? I'd like an answer by the time I come back from work, thanks.
As scum, knowing they have a counter to me, they know I am not a threat. The enemy you don't know has the potential to be more dangerous than the one you do know. Blocking me seems like a pretty obvious move. I didn't expect to get any role utility the second I CC'ed mharman.
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@Cerulean
I'm willing to detour over to Pie for a while. He was very hesitant to claim in Mayday when we were wolfing together, but if I recall right, he did claim fairly quickly in the Bo Burnham game, yes?
Yeah but he fake claimed lol
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@Cerulean
...Has he even claimed? Have I forgotten?
Nope. He probably should though. Usually it's pulling teeth to get that man to claim, so I usually dread it but I think we should be mass claiming this phase to puzzle this out.
For the record I believe your claim to be 3rd party and your role, otherwise that's the ballsiest mafia move ever and it still more than likely won't work out, I just don't see you doing that if actually scum. I am not sure I entirely believe you can joint win though. Though we can do what we've done in other games and just not care if third party win or not and just hunt mafia. Doubt town would be sold on that move though. That said I would like to at least try to lynch one mafia before making the decision to lynch you, so I am fine with you living for this day phase at least.
vtl pie for a full claim
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@Cerulean
The win condition is that I win when either Town or Mafia reach their own win condition.
Can you joint win, or do you usurp the win condition by surviving?
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@Cerulean
Yes indeed. About to kill me on policy? Because you might as well at least discuss the implications of me telling the truth first.
Pie's the policy lynch guy, not me lol
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@WyIted
Cause everyone else is obvious town. Who is scum outside of barney and cerulean?
Pie is still in my POE, and given that mharman did flip town, I should put aside my WIFOM reasoning for clearing casey and at least consider him an option as well. That said Cerulean and Barney are also part of POE yes. I still town read you and your behavior.
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Maybe you are right actually. Earth just responded that I wouldn't have been told if I was roleblocked if I had been. I need to ask him further clarity on that
I re-asked the question he said if I was roleblocked I would be told my action failed, I just wouldn't be specifically told how my action failed. So yeah moot point
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@WyIted
I’m missing the train of logic that specifically implicates those two can you explain better?
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@WyIted
Maybe you are right actually. Earth just responded that I wouldn't have been told if I was roleblocked if I had been. I need to ask him further clarity on that
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@WyIted
How would they have known you were ascetic to do that?They wouldn't but they would know I am town and redirect you from cerulean thinking you would get an innocent result
It seems more likely they would have just roleblocked me
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@WyIted
I think we should all claim. I am pretty sure this is solved and the last 2 scum are Barney and cerulean.I am acetic, So I suspect lunatic was redirected to me, which tells me they thought he might be a cop. His other scum read was cerulean so I assume the redirect was to me so he would get innocent and clear her name.
How would they have known you were ascetic to do that?
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Tbf though I still would have had a hard time buying the the role even if he didn’t lie about the watcher. I guess I can go easy on mharman for that but I don’t know why he lies and why he continued with the lie especially after I said I claimed an every night version of one of his abilities
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@ILikePie5
He also lied about the Watcher being part of the JOAT and being unlimited. It’s still on him.
I literally didn't notice that. What the actual Fvck. Mharman. W.T.F.
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@ILikePie5
What do you mean failed obviously? Are you saying you were roleblocked?
More than likely thats what my action failing means, yes. I was not told roleblocked, I was told my action "failed".
You’re also forgetting Dreaming God, but that’s a weaker JOAT technically. Plus what Ceru and Skipper supposedly have.
I don't even understand how that role works. I googled it after barney claimed it, something about getting a list of names and roles, idk.
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Anyways mharman you can say "I told you so" in the endgame. Idc, I still would have voted you because of the balance issues with your role and my role, the behavior stuff was just icing on the cake for the lynch. Earth balanced this one randomly way different than his other games.
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@ILikePie5
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https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/12026-paper-mario-mafia-chapter-1-dp1?page=11&post_number=327
I really thought earth was giving bowser as a fake claim smh
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I am Kammy Koopa, Bowsers second in command, feared Magikoopa. I watch and report things to Bowser as his second in command. I am the watcher. I tried watching pie np1, but it failed obviously. Figured pie usually is someone prone to get a lot of visits though so if for some reason I wasn't blocked or killed he would be the best bet on getting some sort of result.
Anyways, I did mention my PM mentioned Bowser in dp1, however I thought I still thought Earth was going to give bowser as a fake claim, and it made sense to me based on how mad mharman was getting about "using the fake claim" almost like he thought it was unfair that earth would be a bastard mod and give him a fake claim that was already used in the game, so I doubted bowser was actually going to be in the game because of mharmans repeated questiosn and pretending as if there was only one answer to all of them.
I am extremely surprised by the balance of this game considering earths last two games had 3 vanillas and now we have a lie detecter, a strong JOAT and a watcher, so the mafia must be pretty powerful too.
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@Barney
I seriously doubt Mharman's claim. I'm Jr. Troopa, a Dreaming God. This makes a Joat unlikely to also be in this game.
Why claim he was already CC'ed by me...
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Wylted is hard town for me. His chain of thoughts and thinking resemble his town play very much, and seem extremely authentic and feel as if he is genuinely puzzling the game out. It helps tremendously that I follow a lot of the same lines of thoughts as him, and can see his reasoning perfectly in a lot of these scenaries.
Whiteflame leans town for similar reasons, though if mharman is scum I would expect him to dis-associate from him, but he gets more town cred for doing it early. If mharman flips town, I'll have to look at whiteflame from a different angle.
Same applies to pie as well, but I'd be more suspicious of pie if he wasn't pushing mharman for the CC thing, because he is the one I would have expected to make the argument that it is unlikely that two of the same role is ever likely to exist. He has stuck true to that instead of trying to make up some bullsh1t to save mharman, which he would have incentive to do as scum, so pie gets a bit of cred for that as well.
I still stand by the read that I don't think Casey is likely to have risked a hated townie claim regardless if it was a given fake claim, because it's not safe, and casey strikes me as a "safe and conservative" player I don't see why this would change. That said, if POE get's outrageous with too many town members, I can admit to some degree that his POE isn't as strong as others because it's based on WIFOM I choose to believe.
Skipper is mostly null, I still kind of think he was selling the noob narrative a bit too hard, but he has been consistent with it at least, and I admit that it is just as likely he could be still just be authentically a noob. Ultimately he is null.
Barney is null.
Cerulean, I just haven't really liked a lot of their takes this game, they seem a bit opportunistic, andmy conspiracy that him and mharm were attempting bus theatrics earlier in the phase doesn't help. Going into np1 he is my strongest scum read next to mharm, but mharms flip may change a lot going into dp2 with where I stand on cerulean as well.
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@Cerulean
This is a good shout. I've been rolling around an idea in my mind of at least one, possibly both scum, between WF and Lunatic. They both sort of jumped onto Mharman for the push on me.VTL WF
These type of takes resemble a couple of your stances from recent scum games, where you take a convenient puzzle piece out of the whole picture to paint a narrative that caters to you in a way you can paint someone to look scummy, but ignore the vast majority of the points that led them to where they are. I really don't like this reasoning, and find this extremely suspicious.
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Also I am leaning further into my theory that if mharman is scum I very likely view there early interaction as scum/scum bussing, notice how since then they conveniently stopped pushing each other and have actually been buddying a bit.
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@Mharman
I gave plenty of arguments. Don’t even.I’m not even playing anything. I’m just pointing out your logic and admittedly I’m also just disappointed that you didn’t think about some this shit.But i am far from crying.Go cool off.
I am more than cool, just tired of playing games. If you are going to dismiss everything I say as confirmation bias, then I can play the same game and dismiss everything you are saying as you playing the victim card. You are arguing with emotion over logic and it's a little frustrating when you are also claiming you are trying to appeal to me, but you aren't negating important points and continuously add behavioral reasons to scum read you.
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@WyIted
Quotes I agree with your pet 331 will give more details when I get to work
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@Mharman
I was going to write this more eloquently but fvck it and fvck you, if you want to act like a little victim I’ll play your game and be the asshole you are making me out to be. Yes I scum read you, yes I have my kind pretty much made up about it and. One of any of your victim playing bullsh1t is swaying me. You had all day to find me a better target and you wasted it whining and being a lil b1tch and you’ve used the victim card enough here that it’s stopped working. Boo fucking Hoo I scum read you. If you aren’t going to present a valid argument to my scum read and just whine about confirmation bias then I’ll just respond to you the same way you are responding to me.
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To play devils advocate a little bit, I will say my role PM mentions Bowser. I didn't want to read too much into that because if the mod did give that as a fake claim, i'd be shooting myself in the foot by placing too much stock into that, but in the context of what mharman claimed and what I am, I can see the justification making great sense. It's also part of the reason why I am dismissing the WIFOM of "why I wouldn't claim this if it was scum" from mharman, because the phrasing of the role kind of makes sense for earth to think this would be a good fake claim for scum.
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@Mharman
So, what if someone other than me is arguing points about what I would or wouldn’t do as scum? Is that also pure dismissible WIFOM?
WIFOM works argumentatively to the extent that people are willing to believe it, but its really not worth arguing.
If you lay a case out in WIFOM, its up to the eye of the ones voting to believe or dis-believe it. The skill and ability of the player also kind of goes with the WIFOM though. I am more likely to believe you are capable of high level wifom for example than a noob or someone who just doesn't do it often. I am using WIFOM to argue why I don't think casey would be scum fake claiming hated.
There are plenty of WIFOM arguments I might buy based on the player and the context. You don't unfortunately get as much luxury in having WIFOM work for you based on the fact that you aren't a noob. If you are mafia for example and putting this tremendously high amount of effort into the game, you obviously are case in point for why I shouldn't buy wifom from you out of hand in the future. Hell, I suspected pie was scum in one game and gave him a "high effort pass" one time, despite not buying any of his WIFOM, and he won the game from it lol.
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@Mharman
Also I read your most recent responses. I am not really sure there is much "new" there to respond to that won't just end up with me cluttering the day phase. You seem to be repeating the same points, where if anything you just get more vitriolic and passionate, maybe more insulting about how crazy I am or how ludicrous my read is, but honestly I am not seeing a lot of good faith argumentation there that I think I would be better of served by taking hours of my time to respond to that line by line. I think your time probably would have been better spent trying to convince me of a better target, which I recommended before falling asleep, and it appears no real effort was made in that direction outside of tagging people to post.
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@Mharman
As for bus theory, lol. I'm not gonna do that super risky shit as scum. Especially not DP1. This is kinda the same point I made to Lunatic: I don't care what you think of my play this game, or my play last game, or how it all might affect me. I'm not taking all the risks I'm taking right now if I am scum.Couple of things. First, this is WIFOM. Second, you could have a partner who would do this.
This is what I was talking about when I said most people are just gonna straight out dismiss your arguments as WIFOM. The fact that I went above and beyond to address why the WIFOM specifically should be dismissed was a favor to you to provide a bit more insight, but yeah in general, WIFOM gets dismissed as what it is: WIFOM. And pie is 100% right to treat WIFOM this way, based on how often it is used by scum as a rebuttal.
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@WyIted
I was literally just about to say that lmao. I was gonna say I’m logging for the night, I’ll be on later. I’m willing to consider other avenues if you can come up with a better lynch. I’ll consider other options. It’s not completely out of the realm of possibility there is a lot of town power in this game. I wouldn’t have been so so suspicious of the claim if I wasn’t already reading his behavior but like I said it doesn’t seem like there’s a lot of cases with games try at have double roles like this. But yeah for
Me it’s more in the behavior. Find me a better target while I’m asleep I guess.
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@Mharman
It's not like we haven't seen this tunneling out of confirmation bias from Lunatic before. Ace Attorney Mafia, yes, but also Mayday Mafia, where he even admits to doing it again. It's a pattern at this point.
I never claimed to be a God at mafia or anything. I've lost some, been wrong some. Been right a lot too. I'm not gonna go find and post links to everytime I was because thats egotistical af. If you want to call me trash at the game thats fine, but realize you are only saying that after I've conveniently targeted you. It's not like you have been making this statement a running theme until you try to discredit me lol. Also note I've never called you bad or tunnel vision, so it's interesting you are taking this to such a personal level.
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@Mharman
What the hell are you reading as a macho man bravado act?
Well for one the whole initial post where you linked the ja rule diss to cerulean for simply pressuring you for activity
I call this out 124, you respond by agreeing that you got too hype, but say you still have a case.
"And yeah, I was a little too hyped for the epic 1v1 lol… I should stop that shit and I see why Lunatic was put off by it, and yet, I still think I have somewhat of a case. Cerulean just doesn’t look right to me. At the very least, I’m gonna question some of the points in the defense"
You doubled down here so I was waiting to see why hoping to find some town motive.
Then the nail in the coffin was your push on barney, who said right away in the signups to only use him as a back up because his time was limited.
"I know he’s not been super active, but cmon man. I feel like what he’s posted is underwhelming, even for what I would expect. Recently all he did was update some list… he can update that but not say anything more about what he’s seeing? Even with his claims about how he’s generally less active DP1 because of how his mind works, I see almost nothing."
Barney feels like an easy target, and he responded exactly how I expected him to.
Crying about muh WIFOM does not invalidate said argument. This is mafia, a game where town and mafia alike constantly make arguments about who's what, based on behavior, including arguments about what someone would or wouldn't do as scum. No one reasonable is gonna handwaive away an argument because WIFOM. If we all did, there'd be no arguments to have at all.
Actually dismissing WIFOM as WIFOM is entirely valid. If you are scum here that all this whole thing is, is WIFOM isn't it? I WIFOM the sh1t out of people as scum. It's what you do. That said I outlined why the WIFOM should be specifically discredited, and you left that part out.
Ah yes, I'm scum and under high pressure. I have a really good fake claim that Earth has given me and could use to get out of this situation, but nah, I'll let my scum partner use it instead.
This is great insight into your head, and also proves whiteflames point a bit. You had a vote from me and whiteflame, and you proceeded to claim your ENTIRE role from it. Here you seem to acknowledge that you think this is high pressure. Interesting.
Ah yes, I'm scum and under high pressure. I have a really good fake claim that Earth has given me and could use to get out of this situation, but nah, I'll let my scum partner use it instead. Then, let me claim cop, watcher, doctor all at once, because I have the room temp required to fake claim three of the most common town roles as mafia. In Ace Attorney Mafia, you were tunneling me, and one of your arguments is that you have a lot of respect for my scum play. Here, you seem to think my scum play is troglodyte level. Which is it?
I have already told you I don't remember this game, and I also told you earlier in this game that my most recent memories of your play come from games I've modded of yours, so I've really only been able to examine you from a town confirmed lens. All of this behavior and read I have on you feels like new behavior I haven't seen which is why I am scum reading you. Like I said, I expect a more logical methodical mharman as town than the emotional wreck we are seeing now, who is twisting words, overreacting to pressure, and acting like being scum read is the end of the world.
But anyways if you made a mistake in fake claiming, it is most understandable to do so in dp1 early on before there are really any claims on the table. None of that is me saying you are bad or "trogolodyte level".
Notice how you said I figured one or two of the roles I claimed were safe. You haven't even brought yourself to say I'd think all three were safe! But I'm sure you can gaslight yourself into actually believing that sooner or later, based on what I've seen so far.
I said one or two because I know I am one of them, so for you to be scum an error had to be made insofar as you guessed or hoped that one of the three was safe. Not so hard to believe if you are scum especially after we are finding out the earth tends to not give out tons of power roles in 2/3 games we have seen of his so far.
The two quotes are just circular reasoning. I'm mafia, therefore I'm making a mistake in my claim. Because I'm making a mistake in my claim, it must be fake. Since my claim is fake, I must be mafia.
You keep conveniently forgetting the part where most games don't balance in two of the same role, especially in an earth game. The CC should be alone to make people suspicious of you in most contexts, but in this context its even greater.
Doesn't matter. You thinking her claim is legit should tell everyone reading this that there is no chance I'd be fakeclaiming like this as mafia, not under your logic.You'd have to believe I'd make such an unbelievably stupid claim, that can't even come from paranoia because I'd be scum and have some knowledge. Which is probably why you're arguing I'm fakeclaiming based on my scum roles... 1. As of right now, you won't even say I'd think all three were safe (subject to change, wouldn't be surprised lmao) 2. This based on me already being scum, so more circular reasoning. 3. Your role should tell you that scum probably has roles to counter you, meaning that I would see those roles and know not claim what I've claimed, because my scum roles would be designed to counter something I would conclude is in the game.
Your literally repeating WIFOM over and over again and I've responded to this. Again making a mistake as mafia in an early dp1 setting with no role information revealed doesn't mean you are a bad player, it means you took a calculated risk that didn't pay off. I do it all the time as scum. If it works, people think you are a genius. Thats what gambling as mafia is. Big risk big reward. Nothing to do with stupidity IMO, unless your just constantly yoloing plays like this without your partners consent.
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@Casey_Risk
Earth also did Fire Emblem Mafia. It was a long time ago, however. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6667-fire-emblem-mafia-endgame
Apparently I was in that one, I don't even remember it. But yeah looking at the balance it was very similar to years, mafia roles were basically identical, and again multiple vanillas. Only power roles in that one was an every night tracker, an innocent child and a 50% bodyguard.
Also note that years had a bodyguard. Mharman claimed to have a full on doctor in his JOAT, where we haven't seen earth use a doctor before. If anything this is more damning.
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@Casey_Risk
It's because Lunatic is specifically CCing Mharman, and I frankly agree with his logic. It's not impossible that Earth gave Luna a full-time version of one of Mharman's JOAT roles, but I do find it to be highly unlikely. Just look at Earth's previous games -- he doesn't include a lot of power roles, on either team.
"Years", it was actually Earths only game, which makes the leap of logic of town having big time power roles like that even weirder for his second game. He didn't specify it was rolemad or anything. But I think it's a hard buy in even regular games, you take into account that earths only other game had three vanillas in it, yeah Idk.
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@WyIted
I also don't like how he is expecting us to dismiss lunatic because lunatic made an error in axe attorney. Is there literally anyone who hasn't mislynched mharman at some point in this game? I am sure that logic applies to all of us
I lowkey dont even remember that game. But yeah I'm wrong sometimes, sometimes I am right. Never said I was perfect so I don't know what his point with that is anyway
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