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@Earth
We already know there is a JOAT we’re just guessing one of the JOATS active abilities
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@whiteflame
I’ll admit your claim and recent post look good for you, still obviously gotta wait on pie and cerulean.
I can see a pie / cerulean scum team
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I’m a little paranoid someone is using my confirmation bias against me
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@whiteflame
Yeah that’s why I unvotes we def need claims from cerulean and pie
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And yes my bulletproof shot was 100% used up in case of any confusion. I was specifically told it was used so I know I was the night kill. I am willing to consider the possibility someone wanted me to think it was whiteflame but nothing about my whiteflame read has changed so I’d need a pretty convincing case for a frame
Job here
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I’ll unvote for the sake of mylo. Also I’m watching the ufc fights so can’t put full focus on this right now.
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Cerulean and pie should still full claim but I’ve never been more confident about a read in my life. With me gone whiteflame thought he could talk his way out of any external pressure. Still have pie as a scum read too and am willing to consider earth but he doesn’t trigger anything for me behaviorally
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Hahahahhahahahahaha get baited scum!
1x bullet proof here, it’s been used up.
vtl whiteflame
Who else would have saw me as a threat
lol
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@Casey_Risk
So, that leaves just Moozer and Lunatic for me.
Why me?
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@whiteflame
Pretty sure the aim was to decide how this DP ends. If the aim is to vote for something else, let me know what that is.
No you know how you can vote how many mafia are on a wagon after a lynch? That is what he’s talking about. The idea is we all vote the same way and use the information or lack of information we get as a sensor result. If we all vote 2 and no info is given, we know that everyone in the lynch is innocent for example and can POE players outside the lynch.
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@Moozer325
Sorry, but have you claimed yet? I can’t find one in the DP.
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@Cerulean
Sure, but my point is that if none of the roleblocking roles are Mafia, that seems to mean Moozer's role only exists to override Townies. Do you at least get why, from a rolelist design POV, I think that makes Moozer look wolfy?
I mean we've been discussing that idea since dp1, ultimately it delves a lot into mod psychology. I can see it being an adding point on top of behavioral reasons to lynch someone, but that argument alone doesn't sway me entirely to lynch him.
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@whiteflame
I’m fine with Casey choosing the lynch.
I thought she was asking about who to choose what we all vote for, not the lynch
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The fact that there is so much resistance to the pie/whiteflame wagons unfortunately only solidifies to me that one or both are scum. Mafia is very much in control of the narrative this game.
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@Cerulean
@ Lunatic my POE is practically the opposite of yours, so I want to know where you think the flaw in my chain of logic is here. It feels solid, but I am making some assumptions. Which do you think are bad and wrong?
I town read moozer's claim, and behavior. I just played with him as scum and his playstyle doesn't feel at all similar to the game we were just in. I think he's town. I think banana is town, but she's the only one in the entire game whose kind of been on level with some of my train of thoughts, so maybe I am seeing her through rose tinted glasses. The early roleblock claim andsemi counter claim of owen felt town too. I do admit three role prevention roles feels like a lot, but going through austins games I've seen him use town roleblockers and ascetics before, so it's not out of the realm of possibility three exist in a game, and it also perfectly explains moozer.
I am having a hard time seeing outside of my "Pie/whiteflame" box, but if I had to be open to other lynching options it would be you and earth, simply because you are an unknown variable, though if you are what I hope and think you are, I think pie/whiteflame scum team can make more sense. And I just naturally buy miller claims, they are way too ballsy to risk claiming off the bat like that and I don't see earth as a ballsy player. Unless that was a fake claim given to them by the mod, which is a possibility. But earth/whiteflame, earth/pie could also be a possibility, though given his stances on pie throughout the game, earth/whiteflame is probably slightly more likely.
Ultimately I don't want to lynch outside of pie or whiteflame today, and I kind of wanna die on that hill.
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@Cerulean
I think WF would be my first pick, where is everyone else on that?
HELL no lol. Casey is confirmed town, should be him
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@whiteflame
I’m baffled by this post. Pie claimed a role that will apparently be mod confirmed, and I’m still the only player with an alignment-investigative role in a game with a claimed Miller, yet somehow we’re still your strongest scumreads? If you’re scumreading us behaviorally, fine, whatever. We’ve done that dance. I’d like to know how you reach this conclusion with the information you have about our claims, since you just seem to be entirely dismissive of Pie’s potential confirmability.
Yes its behaviorally, role confirmation means very little to me. And until cerulean claims, dreamer isn't a super strong claim to me to convince me away from scum reading you. Also I am willing to view earth as a scum buddy of you or pie. Honestly pie is just ass guilty in my eyes, might seem like I am reading you harder, but thats because he can't really answer for himself (or is pretending not to be able to). Otherwise i'd do this "dance" with him as well. It's a very clever way to avoid having to claim though I'll say that.
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Still here btw. Patiently waiting until people are ready to lynch either pie or whiteflame. I've laid out my arguments the best I can on that front, so in the mean time I'll just be lurking. If you have any questions I can answer them.
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@whiteflame
You gave a nice list of games that conveniently left out the last one where I was scum and VTNL'd in the end
I don't know off the top of my head what game that was, but if you were scum and VTNL'ed that proves my point doesn't it? Considering my argument is that "town WF wouldn't have likely opted to VTNL".
What I don't understand about this line of argumentation is that it applies both ways. Town has the ability to choose one of three numbers. Regardless of who is scum and whether they were on the lynch, one of those numbers leads to the consequence of town being given information about them. So, when you say there's a consequence for staying on the lynch, I agree... insofar as, if there had been two scum on the lynch, the majority would have given more information to town.
This is precisely why it's weird that the two most active posters in the game were the one's not participating on the lynch, yet also voting for 2 scum being on the lynch... If they know there is the consequence of information, town gets said information, it narrows down the POE largely and basically confirms anyone not on the wagon. I can see why scum knowing this would want to avoid being on the wagon at all costs. Now the point cerulean made was a good one that we overlooked. We could have and should have forced everyone into choosing one option or the other, if we got good information for example and we all voted 2, then we would know that 2 scum were on the lynch, and vice versa, if no useful info was given, everyone on the lynch would be confirmed. Hindsight is 20/20. But in my mind it still kind of worked out because the way things played out did indicate a couple of people likely being scum either way. I imagine you and pie didn't think anyone would make much of this, and I can see why you would be frustrated to be caught by this as scum, because the mod mechanic seems to have forced your hand.. I agree it is kind of a bastard mechanic and definitely seems to favor town.
Again, you cut me off before I could join any wagon when I actively promised I would make a decision at a specific appointed time. Cerulean pointed it out, too. The fact that you actively prevented me from doing so, with full knowledge of when I'd be back, doesn't make me sus. I'm not framing you as quick hammering, I'm stating that you literally didn't give me a chance to post despite there being time to do so and my stating I would be back to post. Quick or not, your decision prevented me from posting, and now you're claiming that my not posting makes me sus.
1. 3 days is plenty of time to have made your lynch intentions clear, especially if you knew you'd be busy near EOD.
2. It's not just the fact that you didn't vote, its the fact that you didn't vote and pie didn't vote, and then you both conveniently chose the answer of two scum being on the wagon. If you are both scum you know that is going to sabotage results, combined with a townies who are more than likely going to guess that as well.
If you want to sus me for not being with you on the Owen lynch, go ahead. I'm sure people would love to know why my not being on that mislynch makes me scummy. I didn't say that I townread Owen.
Nah you actually waffled on him a lot, and were one of the primary reasons pressure started on him to begin with despite the fact that you said at one time you wouldn't be lynching him. It was almost as if you knew or highly suspected he'd get lynched and hoped that line would exonerate you and give you town cred.
I did say that his confirmable role was the only one on the table and he shouldn't have been eliminated DP1 without at least demonstrating it. I get that we just played a game where a confirmable role was town, that does not mean we should assume a confirmable role is scum.
All the last game proves is that it's a complete null tell. Which is should be. Too many townies think role confirmation is affiliation confirmation, last game was a good lesson against that. Letting owen prove his role wouldn't have accomplished much of anything. I thought he was town for his behavior though, weird you seem to mostly town read him for his role.
If you want to sus me for wanting to no lynch over lynching Owen, something I literally did last game as town for similar reasons, then, please, explain how that works. I don't particularly care if you think it's anti-town. It's literally in my most recent town meta.
Yeah but doing that had a negative impact on the game, as the primary lynch target was moozer before the no lynch was establised. Imagine if we had lost our mafia JOAT dp1. part of the reason austin was so pissed off. I think you would have learned that as town from that game.
As for Pie, I'm not making excuses for him and I don't know why you'd ask me to.
Well you are making excuses for yourself not being active, and blaming me for your lack of participation on the lynch. What about pie? He doesn't have any excuse for not voting, and he ALWAYS opts for lynching and he also stated he would lynch a miller if there was no alternative. He was there all day phase, even posting on the last page, and never voted. I find it interesting you don't find him scummy. Just as you were aligning views on moozer all game with him, it's another indicator that you are potentially partnered that you guys don't seem to be considering the other as scum at all, and both are behaving anti-town in similar ways. That you don't have an opinion on pie doing this is kind of baffling.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it: I made clear where I wanted votes to go with my reads. When I made a push on him early, you scumread me for it. When I took off the vote, stated that he was my preferred lynch for the DP (recognizing that it was not a firm read isn't waffling, and the post ended with me saying "So, yes, Moozer is my choice among these four" - again, weird that you're leaving pieces out), and then went away for a little over an hour, you're right that I had not yet applied my vote to him again.
Again you unvoted him on page 5 out of 17, yet are stating you had intentions to lynch him the whole game, and were prepared to when you weren't on him for 2/3rds of the day phase. You acting like you had no time to make a push on him makes no sense. and again, just like with owen, you waffled a bit with him, even if you were mostly scum reading him, it's not like it was obvious you were going to try and get a moozer wagon going again in 30 minutes of the day phase left. Do you think you would have even been successful with that much time left and 4 votes on Owen?
Name a recent game where I have pursued you this hard as scum. I'll wait.Chess Mafia. People are welcome to reread DP2.
I already brought up chess mafia, and this isn't a good example because I wasn't "pursuing" you, I was just questioning your logic about making grand conclusions from mod answers. This is a game I am actively pushing and scum reading you. That instance was not. Bad example if your trying to disprove my point.
Beyond that, it's just very strange to read some of your responses. You voted me first thing in this DP after I made a negative post about you.
I was literally waiting all night to bring this argument up, I didn't even read your initial posts when I outlined my FOS on you. Your read on me was irrelevant to my scum read of you, and your and pies vote of two scum was largely why I voted 0 scum after you guys posted that.
If that's not an OMGUS, I don't know what is (note: I haven't put a vote on you yet, and I've said my vote is going elsewhere, so where's my OMGUS again?)
What... Bro if I was already scum reading you first, and you scum read me second you are the OMGUS'er not me lol
Pointing out you haven't trusted me from the start doesn't change that.
It literally means that. Yes.
Pointing out that your softclaim somehow makes you town just because it was a pseudo-CC is a minor point in your favor, but there's plenty else that pushes me the other way.
Like what the fact that I am scumreading you? AKA OMGUS lol. And that I was a part of a mislynch that I thought was town. Weak sauce argument. I chose information over no information after multiple people have been harping and making the age old argument about why lynching dp1 is always better than no lynching. I don't regret that decision and would make it again knowing how owen would flip.
TBH, I don't know why you claimed, but I'd read it as trying to get towncred.
Like I said mafia had likely already guessed my role at this point. And you were literally asking for my role, but now me claiming is trying to get town cred lol. Again I didn't have to claim a third role prevention role for no reason, and you know I am capable of a better claim than that, and it lines up with why I thought moozer was town. Ascetic isn't a role you claim to get town cred lol. Inferring otherwise just means you think I would make a dumb decision as mafia. I think we both know I could come up with better than that.
I backed off Moozer after he claimed his legacy role and puzzled over it for a while (I literally stated my reasoning here), but sure, go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back for drawing attention away from him.
Or you manufactured a reason to get off a lynch that was starting to make both you and pie look scummy. Who knows!? I think I do.
You've directly said multiple times that part of the reason you're sussing me is that I didn't post a vote. And why yes, I did actually provide substantial reasoning for why I was sussing Moozer well before the end of the DP. Just because it was written with uncertainty doesn't mean it wasn't made at that time.
I say that in response to you trying to claim your intentions on who you wanted to lynch were super clear despite not having a case or a vote on someone. Do you write a case against someone you want to lynch with uncertainty?
Dude, people have pushed me for a claim in DP2 plenty, and I've given it as both town and scum. Where are you getting this? How is this new?
The last few games I have watched you play as scum, I feel it's just been a one sided domination where no one suspects you. Which is a compliment to your skill whether you want to think of it as one or not. Either way I am pushing you into deep waters and new territory as scum in a way others haven't, which is why this reaction is new.
I'm sure you'll have plenty of responses. I could see a world in which you do all this and are town. That being said, there's so much out of context quoting here. You've taken to pointing out that I'm simultaneously so good at being scum that I can't be found out while stating all the ways that my behavior is scummy.
If I didn't think you could be found out I wouldn't be trying. Just because your good at being scum and smart, doesn't mean you wont ever get caught.
You keep pointing to aspects of my behavior you think are scummy while ignoring the ways they clearly don't apply. I don't know if that's scummy, but it's weird and it's setting me off.
Game aside, don't let it effect you too bad. I do think your scum, but who knows maybe I am wrong and just super tunnel vision. Life goes on either way and we will play again with a fresh start after this. It's not a big deal. If I am setting you off so much you don't have to reply. I just can't let someone I think is scum get the last word, and I happen to have time to respond to lengthy posts right now, so I'll keep it going as long as you do.
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@ILikePie5
@Cerulean
Honestly sucks to expose you like this but logically if either of you are the cop mafia would have guessed by POE by now anyway. So you should out your innocent result (if you have one) because mafia will likely deal with you tonight anyway. Pie will have to code he is cop by voting himself and unvoting. Kind of pointless to withhold it at this stage and it will help us determine if whiteflame is lying or not.
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There is still a chance pie or cerulean is a cop, so I don’t necessarily have to go down the “earth is scum” thought process yet. I doubt it is pie since I scum read him, but if cerulean ends up claiming a non investigative role then I guess earth will be back in my Poe.
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Not saying its impossible for austin not to use a new role, but mods kind of stick to a general subset of roles. I notice myself do it all the time as well. Not really intentional.
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I just went through all of austins game. Unless I missed something, he has never used a dreamer before in any of his games. Ironically, I noticed hes used town roleblockers, town ascetics, and town strengethers (it was a doctor strengthener, and ironically moozer had that role).
IDK if I really clear whiteflame based on his claim. Like even if he came out with results i'd be dubious of them, dreamer is something that feels like a common fake claim. I mean it doesn't do a ton for me as far as confirming him or making him look a lot better imo.
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@ILikePie5
Are you trying to tell me unvote?
unvote for yes, vtl me for no
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@Earth
If Lunatic mentioned his activates upon getting lynched, then that might be a potential slip.
I never said anything about my legacy role ever. I really don't understand how it ever came into discussion
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@Casey_Risk
I've been playing this game for over three months now and I'm still learning new things. What does this mean?
It means "Edit by Way of Post" Its a term used on mafiauniverse I picked up in my lingo.
Usually on dart people just say "Fixed" and qoute the part they messed up.
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@Cerulean
It might be worthwhile, this phase, for everyone to stack on a single choice. We let someone towny be the one to answer and everyone else bandwagons. The idea there is that either we get very useful information that confirms we were correct, or we essentially get worthless information that, at the very least, confirms the answer we picked was wrong.
I was thinking this as well, I think this is a good idea and definitely something we should do this phase.
This is a very bad look for Lunatic, in my opinion. There were 40 minutes left in the phase. There's absolutely no reason to hammer that early when WF explicitly asked for more time, especially if you think it's wrong. It's just bad form.
I disagree entirely, but I know why you think the way you do. From the champs game I played on Mafia Universe, there tends to be a buzz of activity near the end of a day phase. It's not always like that here, in fact often it can be the opposite. Like I said earlier, we generally don't try and no lynch, but the few times it has happened, it happened because of inactivity. I think on this site, any hammer happening in the last hour is more than justifiable. The most recent no lynch that happened was heroic mafia dp1, and no one could form a decision.
When I posted my vote, I was getting ready to log for the night and I wasn't prepared to leave the game ending in a no lynch because of inactivity or laziness. Everyone that was on at the time had already voted, besides pie, who seemed like he wasn't going to be voting for owen which meant that it was likely to end in a no lynch. And I am not sorry about whiteflame, he had PLENTY of time to post and make a case. Him not doing so is very out of character for him, and making us wait until the last hour is a risk I wasn't going to take. He just as easily couldn't have showed at all and then a no lynch happened and done the same thing "Oh darn looks like im too late". I'm sure he's glad your buying it, but I am not.
There was no reason to expect to come back and see Day already over because there would have been half an hour left. WF probably already pointed this out, but I'm a bit steamed about making an honest-to-god activity read because you couldn't bother to be patient.
Like I said, I am not risking a no lynch for white flame to come back and do the exact same thing a half an hour later "Oh gee golly, looks like I missed the deadline, sorry folks hurdeedur, I'll be sure to be there next time!"
Yeah again this site is not mafia scum, people don't get all of a sudden active in the last 30 minutes of the phase like they do there, and we've been bit by no lynches multiple times in the past because of stuff like this. Anyways I wouldn't even neccesarily blame him for that if it did happen, its that he was there and voted the way he did immediately after the phase ended when there was real consequences with POE to being on the lynch and having multiple people vote 2, then getting information from austin. I am still not 100% your are biting on that part of the logic, which is 90% of my case against whiteflame. You are overly attached to the "ThERe WaS tHiRtY mInUtEs LeFt" Logic.
Did you think the phase ended at XX:00 instead of XX:30? Because unless it's specifically that, then the alternative to you voting Owen there was waiting to vote.
Not to sound like a broken record here, but on this site, the risk of waiting tends to lead to no lynches. 30 minutes is different here than it is on mafia universe. I was logging off for the night, and honestly, nothing would have switched regardless. 30 minutes isn't enough time to get a train going on someone else, and if what whiteflame is saying is true, he wouldn't have voted owen anyway, which means we likely would have just no lynched.
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@whiteflame
So then your point was that I should have equivocated more on Moozer... but you're simultaneously frustrated that I didn't have a vote on him (which is where it would have been) at the end of the DP? Not helping your point.
Both you and pie backed off of Moozer AFTER I had called you out on it. I already mentioned to pie why that was scummy last day phase. And I am not frustrated that you didn't have a vote on him, just pointing out that if he was your strongest scum read, you would have laid out a case against him well enough in advance. You didn't and I proved that above.
Again, you're calling me out for not posting a vote, which would have been inherently aggressive (especially since, by that point, I would have been trying for a lynch) while acknowledging that it was my "super aggressive" response to Moozer that set you off in the first place? Really?
You are really good at gaslighting, but im not falling for it. Like I said earlier, being a part of a lynch isn't being super aggressive. I fully expect to you be on a lynch in most games, after you've weighed both sides of an issue thoroughly. Initially you were hell bent on moozer, only backed off of him when I called you out for being hell bent on him, and then proceeded to do nothing useful with your vote the rest of the phase, but were over eager to say there was two scum on the wagon to sabotage results when you now admit there was likely 0-1 on the wagon. All signs point to you and pie trying to sabotage austins results.
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@whiteflame
Well, then you're not looking very closely at that post, especially since it comes early. If Casey wants my claim, let them call for it. Doesn't even require a vote because Casey can't vote anyway. Call me stubborn all you want, call me scummy for it, I really don't care.
Something about sleeping is im sure what you are referring to. If your soft claiming dreamer, that's not a particularly strong claim. There is nothing that I can look at and go "Oh whiteflame has gotta be town" from that. I can't force you to claim, i've got my vote on you that's about all I can do, while hoping the rest of the town comes to their senses.
...Really dude? A million coincidences? We both know that's an absurd framing, let's not kid ourselves. There's literally only one coincidence you called out and I telegraphed it openly. Also, let's not kid ourselves about my "missing out" on the end of the DP. I was on for the end of the DP. I didn't "miss out" on anything beyond getting my vote in before you hammered. I didn't even "miss out" on "setting up my lynch target way in advance," something that you actively sussed me for doing. And now you're sussing me for not doing it? What? In this case, what you're doing is characterizing me as someone who would never do this as town and that I somehow would do this as scum. I don't think that's a compliment, personally, but what do I know? Also, I'm really so done with this "convenient timing" argument. I posted two hours ahead of the end of the DP giving the precise time I would be available. I posted as soon as I was actually available. I sincerely do not give a fuck if you believe me.
I already pointed out how rare it is for you to not be on an end wagon with just a brief showing of the last 5 games, you were on three of the final mis-chops. I don't even think it's worth denying that you generally aren't apart of dp1 lynches. So why wouldn't it be worth looking into the fact that you weren't there for the one that could actually hurt scum by them being on it? As you said you were there for the DP end. Who else was going to be lynched at that point? We don't no lynch often here, but a lot of times when we do its because we wait to long and the day phase expires. You trying to frame me as quick hammering when there is less than an hour left is rediculous. At the end of the day the timing of your vote and the way you voted is scummy, especially since now you are admitting there was likely only one or zero scum on the lynch, yet were so eager to vote there being two last phase. Yeah they totally are coincidences. We know your excuse though, what is your excuse for pie? If you aren't scummy for doing it, why isn't pie who was on 4/5 of the last games EOD chops, the fifth being the one he modded?
I know what Cerulean said. I know what you were saying and what everyone else said about not wanting to no lynch. That still would have been my preference over lynching someone with a confirmable role in DP1. As for how we positioned ourselves at the end of the last DP, let's compare. I gave an extensive set of reads and directly sussed Moozer. It was confirmed by multiple people, but you keep leaving it out of these responses. Then, I said I would be offline for a little over an hour. During that hour, you hammered, but somehow it's my fault that I only returned to place that vote on Austin's quiz. Whatever. Your position, meanwhile, was to largely townread Owen throughout the DP, but still willingly hammer him in the end. It's the fact that you weren't scumreading him but still willing to do that that sets me off. I don't see the hypocrisy.
I was okay lynching for information even if I wasn't convinced owen was town. The hypocrisy is that you make it sound as if there would have been an alternative. I also don't completely buy that you being okay with a no lynch is a pro town move from whiteflame, but you'll just dismiss that as wifom too. But you can see from a large number of games where you are town, you choose to go with the option of lynching over no lynching. The one game I advocated the no lynch was when I was scum as well. Leaves more lynching options on the table and more unknown variables for future day phases. Regardless going back to the "confirmable role" thing, your telling me that you hard town read him for that after I was literally just a scum messenger makes me think that you are doing the exact thing you are accusing me of doing, hedging your read with inside information. You have the added excuse of not being on the lynch, but that just makes it more scummy imo. TBH this argument is turning into more of a "No I would or wouldn't do that" essentially a "No U" situation and becoming a bit repetitive. I think you would, and if your scum your obviously gonna say the opposite so this is getting tiresome. Just gotta hope town sees the light here.
So, let me get this straight. Because "Role confirmation =/= Affiliation confirmation" and we learned that lesson so well last game, the best choice we could possibly make this game is to immediately vote off the only claimed role confirmable player? Do I have that right?
1. There was nothing "immediate" about that lynch, there was less than an hour of the game left.
2. It just disqualifies your read heavily that owen was town, if most of that is being banked on him being confirmable when we literally just learned that lesson last game. Like I just said, you are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of doing for town cred.
*sigh* Again, I did provide my case for voting Moozer. It's there, in black and white, in a long set of reads that I posted last DP. I appreciate that you think highly of me, but why the fuck do you keep leaving out my reads and claiming they don't exist?
I've acknowledged your read on him, it was part of my basis for scum reading you to begin with. But you didn't make a push on him, if you are trying to say that, you are lying. Your vote wasn't even on him for one. You had unvoted before the halfway mark of the day phase even occured (page 5 out of 17).Your last posts about moozer was literally waffling about him.
"As for who to lynch based on what we know, Moozer's role still sticks out a bit, but his legacy role at least has me questioning whether he's the right decision to go with here. Given Owen's claim, I'm least willing to lynch him atm."
"And then there's Moozer. I'm still hesitant to lynch him for reasons I've already mentioned"
"If there really are so many roles in the game that manipulate, then I can see the basis for there being a Strengthener. He did also claim before all these role manipulations started rolling in, so I can understand why he looks a little better on that front."
Tell me how any of this makes it seem like you are leading a strong case against moozer? Also for the added bonus, the bolded shows you weren't as solid on owen as you are now pretending to be.
Let's not kid ourselves, dude, this is exactly what you've done in previous games. It is not new for you to push this hard on me. Just because you didn't play this way last game doesn't mean you've never played this way as scum. Particularly in games when you're being actively scumread, you try to put that effort down as hard as you can.
Name a recent game where I have pursued you this hard as scum. I'll wait. I will admit I was a more aggressive scum 4-5 years ago, but people picked up on that meta and I have been drastically different since.
To your credit, you're not being as rude about it this time, but this is hardly a first,
Like I said to moozer, I won't deny occasionally being a dick, but even the last time I was a dick to you as scum, it wasn't me scum reading you, it was basically just calling you out for thinking Barney was confirmed (which was partial frustration at the mod austin for giving too much information in answers to you). I wasn't just straight up calling you scum. The way I am going about this I am not earning any favors, even curelean is buying your BS and casey also has reason to town read you IG, so I am taking the path of the most resistance as scum is your argument. In what world does that make sense?!
and I'm seeing a lot of whataboutism (seriously? I said I was scumreading you early in the DP and literally your first response was to call me out and VTL me) in your responses that looks awfully familiar.
Idk wth whataboutism is, but cool word. But I've been scum reading you since my first post in this game. I haven't omgus'ed once, and I left the end of last day phase heavily scum reading you for voting 2 scum on the wagon immediately after not partaking in it. My read on you has been consistent, and no variable of you "calling me out" has changed any of my reads. It showed some hypocrisy sure on your end, but I already had you nailed down mister.
And yes, I was townreading you last DP for your softclaim. Things have changed based on your behavior since then, and I don't think an Ascetic claim makes you look particularly clean.
The reason you were town reading my soft claim though, is the exact thing you should be reading both my claim and behavior as. Why would I soft claim a third blocking style role? That was what you town read me for. Why also would I claim something that can't confirm me with little to no pressure (your vote wasn't on me), unless I genuinely thought there wasn't a reason to hide the claim anymore (IE mafia guessing it), and why wouldn't I have claimed something way better than Ascetic? I know I haven't been the most popular player this game, you think I would come up with something better than that as scum. My mathmetician claim in my last scum game was genius for example. You think I go from that to claiming Ascetic? You aren't being consistent in how you are reading me and it's convienent that you are choosing to read one thing as town, and the same similar thing as scummy when I have doubled down my pressure on you. Like I said, for all the OMGUS accusations, you are guilty of most of it atm.
See, it's responses like this that have me most on edge about you. You keep saying all these things I don't normally do. OK, I have a history as both town and scum. Where, as scum, have I shown this degree of stubbornness? Also, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not dying on this hill. That doesn't mean that your vote alone is going to sway me. If enough people want my claim, I'll claim.
You are asking me to provide an instance that hasn't happened. That is because like I have said multiple times, you are good at scum. From what I have seen in recent games when you are scum you fly completely under the radar. There hasn't been any recent games for you to show stubborness, because you haven't gotten this much pressure this early in recent games where you have been scum. This is new territory for you.
You actually did use the word "lazy" here. You also said "opportunistic."
Lets take the whole qoute in context, because nothing changes about my point.
I don't know if passive is really the word I am looking for, though I guess to some extent it works. The reason it stood out to me really is that it felt more "lazy, oppertunistic", like you are perfectly okay with lynching him whereas I feel like town whiteflame would have tried to see more both sides of moozer here and weigh him as being town equally. Your town playstyle is more "lawyer" like where I feel like you have to have a pretty good reason to want to lynch someone before caving to it.
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years mafia EOD both Whiteflame and pie on the mischop dp1
Shocking tv moments ended early because of an execution, but pie was on the mischop dp1
Presidential election mafia, both pie and whiteflame on the final chop dp1
Middle school mafia both pie and whiteflame on the final mischop dp1
Out of the last five games we no lynched once, pie was on the other 4 dp1 EOD chops and Whiteflame was on 3 of them.
I could probably get a bigger stats pool to pull from if I have the time and inclination. But we generally don’t purposely no lunch here and generally pie and Whiteflame are always on the lynches. You take a game where there is a consequence for mafia to be part of the lunch and they are both no where near the lunch and you don’t find that somewhat scummy?
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I’m out of the house posting on mobile rn I’ll respond to the bigger posts in a bit when I’m back on my computer
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Very annoying, but okay. That does explains Lunatic's rationale about WF and Pie a little bit more.
It’s extremely rare that we no lynch here, the last game was probably the first time that’s happened in a while. I will respond to your analysis of you taking whiteflames side about his activity not being suspicious last phase, but in good faith I’d ask you to go read through previous EODs on dp1 and see how many times you see either of them not take part of a lynch, let alone let it come down to a hour remaining in the phase. Then ask yourself why it would be different this time, when there is a mechanic that literally can hurt scum by them simply being on the lynch.
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but somehow doesn't vote owen in order to avoid a no lynch*
EBWOP
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@whiteflame
I was roleblocked. My action failed.
So for you not to be scum reading ana the claimed roleblocker, I am guessing your "theory" is going to have something to do with a redirector being in play
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@Cerulean
Good afternoon, all. I have some thoughts from EOD, but I'm going to backread today first. I'm curious to see the justification for calling 0 scum on the wagon by Lunatic and Banana.
I've been kind of harping on it all day phase now, I am sure you will see that when you catch up. But tl;dr, my reason is because I think the scum team is whiteflame/pie, and I found it extremely convenient that they were the highest posters in the game but were somehow unable to be there for the end of a day lynch. It's extremely obvious in pies case. Pie was literally harping how he would rather lynch a miller than have a no lynch, but somehow doesn't vote owen in order to avoid a mislynch? It seemed extremely planned and coordinated. I think they made the play to stay off the lynch intentionally so they wouldn't be implicated by the results. If both of them were on the lynch, and the majority of town voted there are two people on the lynch, and austin gives us information, we essentially have sensor results confirming that 2/5 people are scum. That narrows down town POE a ton. If you are scum you want to avoid that at all costs. You don't find it weird at all that neither of the two most active posters had an end of day decision, but were there immediately to vote there is two scum on the wagon to sabotage the info we got from austin?
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@whiteflame
OK, so let's start with the obvious:I'm not claiming just because you have a vote on me. If people want my claim, they can push me. I will say, I softed my claim last DP, so people are welcome to look back at post #420 (nice, didn't even plan that) and see if they can figure it out.
I don't see any obvious soft claim in that post. Also earth and casey have now both mentioned that your behavior was scummy by being there to vote right at the bell. Banana pointed out the scumminess with pie doing it, but it also had applied to you. Thats three different people who saw the same thing as me scummy. Just because they aren't voting you, you won't claim? Come on, even I claimed, when it was virtually only you asking me for a claim. Moozer hasn't even asked for my claim yet this phase. That's a bit stubborn. I can see not claiming dp1, I didn't because I wanted to bait a scum role, but then figured scum probably guessed my role anyway so I claimed this phase. The longer you refuse to claim while being scum read the scummier it will make you look.
As for this post, I just love how this works. So your argument is that I'm engaging in WIFOM when your whole argument is exactly that. I'm responding to your WIFOM accusations. Nothing you've said so far about my behavior makes me inherently scummy, and I'm noticing that your efforts conveniently leave out large swaths of what I actually posted last DP (including an extensive set of reads and a specific person who I thought should be the lynch) to focus on the one thing I didn't do, and notably, that that one thing was what you, specifically, cut me off from doing. Like, sincerely, what did I have to do to satisfy you here? Post a vote on a non-existent wagon?
I am not dismissing your wifom out of hand, I am dismissing it because it comes off as a poor excuse and I would have to believe in a million coincidences. My "wifom" actually has a well reasoned argument to it that points to suspicious behavior. For you to dismiss my wifom out of hand you have to admit that you are at fault for something. Being busy isn't a crime of course, but can you agree that it is very rare for you of all people to miss out on the end of a day phase like that? Or leave it to an hour remaining? Again my argument is complimenting you, because even if you had I know you would have been prepared enough to start setting up your lynch target way in advance. Moozer wasn't even a viable option for a lynch when you were suggesting it, and had little to no pressure. You were going to leave the day phase knowing you were busy to an hour remaining with no plan in place, just to lecture those who did vote, so a no lynch wouldn't happen. You don't see how that comes accross as scummy, or how you being there to vote immediately after the phase ends seems super convienent? And that you and pie (both the most active posters) both somehow missed the oppertunity to place a final vote, and then both convienently voted the exact same answer with 2 scum being on the wagon... There is no way your telling me these million coincidences aren't scummy, and that they happen to be just coincidences.
Also, what even is this final paragraph? I gave specific reasons for why I'm sussing Luna that he's just strawmanning at this point. I'm not going to address a bad faith response that doesn't even engage with my points.
The alternative to me voting owen was a no lynch, which everyone freaks out about is the worst thing town can do dp1, cerulean went into major analysis of why last phase, austin made a huge point about it in the endgame, and its something in general people agree is not a good thing. Imagine the one time I did advocate for a no lynch recently was in the last game. And I was scum. Now I participate in a lynch with dwindling time and you are using that against me? Sorry for not thinking that is the strongest argument. Especially when you yourself, one of the most active posters, somehow misses the opportunity to set up a better lynch target but is there immediately after the lynch takes place to vote on austins quiz and immediately close the thread. Like for you to cast a stone at me when I was openly not even scum reading own, when you had every oppertunity for 3 days to establish who you thought could be a better lynch, is beyond hypocritical.
Great, more WIFOM. Because Pie and I weren't on the obvious mislynch and hadn't actively voted for someone else who definitely wasn't going to be the lynch, we're somehow sus.
Stop right there. If this was such an "obvious" mislynch why aren't you more suspicious of the people who actually wanted to lynch owen, rather than the person who townread him but didn't want the phase to end in a no lynch?
Luna jumps through a lot of hoops here to try to find a way to make us look sus. I'll note that if we were on other lynch wagons, it wouldn't have changed this calculus (literally, it's exactly the same whether we're on a wagon or not), so Luna is now scumreading us regardless of whether we voted or not. At this point, nothing would have satisfied him beyond us being party to this obvious mislynch.
No actually, the whole argument wouldn't exist if you and pie, the most active posters of the game, had literally voted anywhere. This is a classic mafia play "Let town fvck this up and we can stay out of the blame for it". And you keep trying to make it seem like I am the only one to pick up on how scummy this was. Again, casey, earth, and banana also picked up how scummy this was to some degree even if they aren't harping on it as much as I am. We all four can't be scum. I may be the loudest one in the room, but you have to dismiss all of them as well if you want to dismiss me as the lunatic. :)
As for voting Owen, I'd made myself perfectly clear when I gave out my reads and in direct response to Casey. In both cases, I said I was unwilling to vote Owen. If had gotten to the end of the DP and Owen was the only viable lynch, I would have preferred to no lynch despite what literally everyone was saying. It was a bullshit lynch on a person who at least had a confirmable role, notably something scant few people have claimed to have. You can justify it all you want on the basis that we had no other options, but don't blame me just because you made an obviously bad call.
This is probably the most hypocritical part of your ENTIRE post. First thing it ignores the entire premise of "Role confirmation =/= Affiliation confirmation" Which was the ENTIRE moral of the last game. Being able to confirm yourself doesn't mean you are town. I proved that last game and several people brought that up this game. His role wasn't even why I was town reading him, I was town reading him entirely based on behavior and saying things like "How can I avoid this next time" and all his pleas to not be lynched seeming exactly like how he was town in his first game and got mislynched. But the hypocritical part is you are now doing what you are accusing me of doing, using your town read of owen to get town cred yourself, only you have the added benefit of having conveniently been absent for the most important part of the phase that forces you into a decision.
Also, this is one of several times you've done this and I'm going to call it out directly: this is not the first game you've tried this tactic of saying how you have certain expectations of my behavior and then call me out for not doing them. Hell, this isn't the first game you've ignored large swaths of what I posted, or where you've pushed back this hard on me sussing you and then proceeded to OMGUS me, notably all behaviors I've seen you do specifically to me as scum.
I have high standards for you as a player, because I have seen what you can do. I think you are one of the smartest mafia players we have on the site right now, and are more than capable of providing a strong case for a lynch on a player you want to get lynched, far enough in advance to you knowing you would be absent. Are you trying to tell me you wouldn't or couldn't do that? I don't think I am ignoring large swaths of anything.
Tell me honestly. If I am scum, do you think I would be pursuing both of the hardest people to mislynch in the game, starting in day phase 1? You just saw me play as scum last game. Is my behavior in this game at all similar to that game, where I played it extremely safe every single day phase, and let town lead every single lynch on relatively safe targets to coast for a win? See where you are losing me is I know you see this, and you even mentioned town reading me for claiming a third role prevention role after two had already claimed. As scum I have a plethora of options to fake claim, not only do I claim without any real pressure, but I claim something that can be seen as scummy since there are other roles similar to mine in the game, and then I go on to pursue the two most active players in the game, and you have to somehow spin that I am doing all this with the intention to play as mafia the hardest way possible for literally 0 reason. And for all the talk about OMGUS its funny you are the one literally omgusing. My first post in the game I cast suspicion on you and pie, and I have been consistent with those reads all throughout the entire game. You actually town read me at one point, and seemingly only recently switched off of that town read when trying to use the owen lynch against me. If anyone is OMGUSing here, it's clearly you.
No thanks.
I don't think this works out for you the way you are hoping it will. Being stubborn for the sake of stubborness doesn't really fit town whiteflame's MO. Even I didn't play it this hard, and had a clear reason for not claiming dp1. I never really cared about your claim anyway though, asking for your claim is for the benefit of you trying to do something to prove that you aren't scum. I was scum reading you for behavior. You claiming was for the help of everyone else in town reading you. If you wanna die on this hill of your own making that's on you.
Also, one more thought to add that I think everyone should take note of from Luna:He called me out last DP saying that I was too readily voting Moozer and that I would be more likely to be, in his words, "passive" and "lazy."
Bullsh1t. That wasn't my point at all and you know it. My point was that as town you would be more willing to look at moozer equally as being town. While I did use the word "passive" in context it meant something different as to what you are trying to spin it as. This is what I said:
"Not nearly as passive as he usually feels to me, I feel like hes making a mountain out of a molehill with the moozer claim. It piggy backing off of pie who feels scummy to me, makes me less sure about him. Usually whiteflame is much better at catchign scum slips, this doesn't feel like a slip though on moozer part. I just don't like the read, and it doesn't feel like town whiteflame to me."
This clearly indicates that I was scum reading you for not trying to weigh both options, something that I felt you would do as town. And I didn't use the word lazy at all. You adding that for a bit of mis-direction is amusing though.
Now, he's calling me out for not having voted (again, said I would as soon as my class was done, and Luna specifically was responsible for ending the DP before then),
Now that we know I didn't say the "lazy part" it makes sense yeah? You were super aggressive with moozer but not there for the entirety of the last day phase to push a case on him? Seems a lot like my theory about you trying to make town look bad by mislynching so you can cast blame on them, meanwhile you were literally posting multiple times during the last day. But just because I think you would weigh both the town and scum option of someone doesn't mean I think you would avoid making a decision entirely.
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I only pinged him one time and it was literally only the last post. Interesting that he is reacting that way.
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