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@Mharman
I have a question for you. If I'm scum, who's my teammate?-I've hardpressing for an Austin lynch right now.-I scumread Savant late DP1, and was so confident in my read throughout NP1 that I didn't even notice Whiteflame had been made unvoteable at the start of this DP-I had a massive FOS on Whiteflame on in Post 662 of DP1 and said I was torn between him and Earth earlier today. I'm only now starting to really think he's town.-I'm hard accusing Earth right now. The only reason my vote isn't on him is because Austin exists.The only person I've consistently townread all game is Wylted. Are you about to conclude Wylted is scum or that my reads on one of those four are fake? Because if you look at my posts and think about what my thought process would be in combination, you should hopefully be able to tell that I'm not bullshitting my reads. And if you remember that long-ass post I made earlier this DP, it should pair well with my posts from earlier.
Despite how WIFOM heavy that post is, I do agree with your WIFOM points. I doubt your scum mate would be austin WF or earth. Actually I do see a case for wylted being the scum partner. He isn't as town confirmed to me as he seems to be to everyone else. The chances that it is whiteflame or earth are also possible, I know you FOS'ed them but that is more likely to be faked than the austin one. I think you and austin are legit either T v T or T v S.
In order of likelihood I would rank your scum partner equity as follows:
1. Wylted.
2. Whiteflame
3. Earth
98. Savant
99. Austin
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@Mharman
1. A lot of people were in the POE pool. You and Wylted were the only people that were universally town read. That's not a reason for me to say that I should sacrifice the utility I have for POE when there are investigative roles I should sacrifice myself for instead, however...2. I didn't see any good investigative roles to target.
You didn't catch on to the multiple obvious posts where I was basically warning austin of consequences to his dreamer results pushing me to claim, or when I was arguing with savant I told him there was something he was missing (he kept saying he could just be investigated, and what I was implying he was missing was the fact that I could be investigator). I made it so obvious that I was convinced I was going to be the night kill target, or at the very least roleblocked. Earth using his ability on me makes sense to why I wasn't roleblocked. But still, surprised you thought you were the best person to use the role on there. Even with you saying wylted is so town you can grow a family off his behavior, you wouldn't protect him? Just seems odd.
Dude. Everything you have posted scumreading me has been on a heavy confirmation bias and paranoia. Seriously, you started by saying "oh Mharman is the game, is it him?" then voting me.
I mean I said earlier that I was leaning on the scum being austin. My vote is not currently on you yet you are accusing me of confirmation bias. I am trying to be partial to both sides here. I don't like Austin's defense either.
And because we have different ideas of RVS, my response believing your logic on my to be stupid made you think I was scum.
I dropped that forever ago.
From there, everything I have done has been scummy in your mind. You started with the idea that I could be scum, and just let it creep further into your head from there.
1. I think you are taking it personally; don't. If I think your scum it's because I respect you and your abilities as a mafia player, and think your clever enough to pull the cloth over peoples eyes. I have nothing but respect and admiration for you as a mafia player, so don't take it as a me v you thing. There are logical reasons for all of my suspicions, and even then I am not voting you, so that shows you I'm not just blindly tunneling you here. The fact that I am even dialouging with you is evidence I am willing to hear you out.
2. I came into DP2 hard scum reading you for the following reasons. For one, you voted for Owen after putting him super high on your town read list. Also I wasn't there, but to me owen's pleas and begs for people to tell him what he was doing wrong just screamed townie to me after that. Ngl wylted pushing that lynch so hard has also made me a little less sure of him being confirmed town now as well. Secondly, the self visiting thing. I've already explained why I think that character is more likely to me a lawyer/framer than a doctor, as well as I don't see the reason for you docing yourself as completely solid.
I am giving you a mod psyche pass on the argument that "saving" equals doctoring, because casey is a new mod, and I am giving you a slight pass on the self doctor thing because even going into the day phase I was telling myself I could be onto a town doctor here, and the fact that you haven't been CC'ed as a protective role also works in your favor. Not that I don't think the game would be balanced without one, I just think it's another mod psyche point that casey would probably have a protection role in the game after playing in many other games that have them.
tl;dr don't take it so personally. I am still undecided, just trying to factor in all options here.
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@Savant
I find it kind of telling that no one in the POE (WF, Austin, Earth) is willing to admit that they are the POE as of now.
From my pov you and mharman are just as equal in that POE as any of the other three. Your role confirmed, not affiliation confirmed. The magistrate not being used how you said it was could mean that you tried to cause confusion with a redirector. Not saying I buy that is the case, but in my shoes its just as likely as austin not even trying to fake dreamer results and going through with that whole ploy last day phase just to back off of it and not allow mislynches to come of it when he easily could have as scum. And Mharman's in the POE too. It's suspicious he docc'ed himself because I don't think anyone realistically thought he was going to be the night kill target. Plus his character still doesn't make sense as doctor to me, only if you really use to the term "saving" loosely. And there is a million self visiting mafia roles he could just as equally be. Earth actually made the right decision with his ability, because as you pointed out I did kind of obviously claim an investigator, so he gets town points for that from me and because my action didn't fail last night when I 100% expected it too. I don't know if I was roleblocked, or if they really did randomly waste a redirect on you to cause confusion.
But you see my point? All three of those people if town, know they are town. Same with you, if you are town you know you are town. Would you want to admit to being in the POE?
Also I am pretty sure whiteflame did admit to knowing he was in the POE in a response he made to me recently.
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The other thing with mharman I struggle with is why he protected himself. I know he thought savant would kill him but that seemed out of the question, mharman was in the POE pool last day phase and I don't think scum had any reason to think he was a PR threat. It seems like a waste of the role and kind of anti town from my perspective.
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@AustinL0926
Savant's progression makes very little sense from last phase,
What do you mean by this? He's been wanting to lynch you the whole time, I guess he did back off a little when you claimed what you did, but I never got the vibe he thought you were town.
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Well I've been conflicted ever since mharman claimed doctor. On one hand, doctor was like the only role I told myself would get a pass for a self visit after I got the result. But that distinction between "saving" people "protecting" people legally feels kind of like a shaky line. I know he also saved people outside of the legal case, but still I figured a doctor or protective role would be an actual medical type of person since my character seems to have an actual investigative background, and I looked it up, there are many medical types of people in this theme.
The only reason I am not buying into my own wifom here, is because it seems odd that their wouldn't be any town protection roles. Not that its not balanced with out them, a protection can be pretty OP for the town. But most mods tend to wanna have at least one protection and I'd kind of expect casey as a new mod to have one. But we keep juggling this question of what casey would or wouldn't do in our heads and it's really like "who knows" until the endgame.
Anways, I buy whiteflame is town for now behaviorally.
For mharman and earth to be scum there has to be no protective roles, and I have to buy earth carried the kill out as well as the redirect. I also have to buy that they risked letting me go with results despite me having hinted heavily towards being an investigative role yesterday which would have been risky. Unless they just always planned to claim self visiting doctor if I was a tracker. It's definitely possible.
Mharman could also be partnered with someone else I had town read like WyIted or whiteflame.
Austin could be scum, I don't see him and savant as partners unless they just went out of their way to make the biggest bussing episode ever yesterday. I felt austin is town for all the wifom reasons whiteflame did, why not just let the chaos of his fake dreamer results provide free mislynches? Unless he lost confidence in it and didn't think it would happen. I kind of wanted to see what austin would say in his defense of the POE argument and that was going to help me decide. His argument against mharman felt really weak and the "1 v 1 me bro" thing was really not what I was expecting. I kind of was looking for more umph in his argument than that. But if that's all he has it makes me doubt austin way more as being town, and being more oppertunistic for any lynch he can get. He also feels a bit cornered right now. Could be he is busy and just didn't have time to make a proper argument, and he did say he would contribute more towards this later. I hope he does because after last night I am leaning more towards austin being scum than town.
I am not sure who is scum partner would be. I don't think wylted is entirely out of the question either. The wifom around the CC thing that we keep town reading him for could be orchestrated if they were partners. Earth I guess is a possibility, but I feel like earth would be selling austin out as scum rather than sticking to his side. Idk.
I kind of wanna wait for austin to come back and see what else he has to say and puzzle this out further.
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@Mharman
Wylted is so townie that I could build a house and raise a family on his behavior.
Adding this to my book of mafia qoutes
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Why the fvck would anyone redirect a magistrate expect for to try to make Whiteflame look scummy but then on the other hand that seems too obvious and almost does the opposite
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I’d I thought there was any chance in hell Wright could be a doctor I wouldn’t have outted my results
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UGH there are so many medical like people I thought would be doctor, and he just claims the protagonist, but still claims doctor. Either theres not a doctor this game or he's telling the truth.
Ima wait on thoughts from the other players. Doctor is like the only role that makes sense with my results, but I wasn't expecting phoenix to be a doctor. Technically the justification makes sense from a 'protecting' pov not a lifesaving pov. But to buy that he is lying Id have to buy there being no other protective roles in the game.
if you are a protective role please claim now.
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did Whiteflame claim roleblocked? We know there was a redirect too
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If I was town I would claim my role and action then write up the long post explaining why
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Scum wouldn’t claim fast. They would be caught and trying to figure out a role that makes sense to self visit and asking their scum partner for help and ideas
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@Savant
Wouldn't scum be more likely to visit the town player they are killing or disabling? We know scum visited Austin and JoeBob (or Austin is scum), and Mharman visited neither of those two.
There are two scum the other scum could have carried out the night kill. And its possible for mharman to be town here. Just saying its taking him a long time to answer. Phone or not.
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@Mharman
You try explaining everything you’ve done throughout the game while typing on a mobile phoneConfirmation bias go crazy
Yes, my mind reading abilities you were posting from a phone.
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This fakeclaim is gonna be good. It's almost been an hour and hes just now starting to write the defense.
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@Savant
Should have said you copped him guilty lol, that would get him to claim.
Was considering something like that but I didn't want to waste half the day phase for him to claim, and trying to convince others to vote him. Eventually you guys would want to know why I was pressuring him so hard. And ultimately its just that there are so few town roles I can think of that self visit.
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@Earth
The forged evidence Lunatic mentioned was forged/commissioned by Klavier's brother Kristoph. Kristoph tipped off Klavier that Pheonix was presenting fake evidence and that led to the fourth game. Even Klavier felt bad about the whole thing.
Its still justification for a framer/lawyer. Look, I acknowledge that Wright is the main character. It's really on mod psyche whether or not he is town or scum. Protagonists are scum all the time, and I think the justification holds whether it was done innocently or guiltily.
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@Earth
Stop reading the wiki. Larry Butz is at most a goofy womanizer, not a bully and Klavier had nothing to do with the forged evidence.
Even then, mods tend to put antagonists and town. I have no clue in caseys case what he would do. Either way I can't think of a ton of town self visiting roles, and my reasons for tracking mharman were entirely based on behavior.
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@Savant
Why didn't you ask Mharman to role claim before claiming tracker??
He wouldn't have, I had to trade him my character just to get him to character claim. No one else is even voting mharman or seems to be suspicious of him. Also I was really only holding out because I thought he was doctor. Truth is there just isn't that many town sided roles that should be visiting themselves, so in my opinion, this is more than enough to pressure him. The longer he takes to answer, the less likely I am gonna be to believe his roleclaim at this point.
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@Mharman
I know you don’t want to reveal much, but I have something in mind and I need to know: Sid you investigate Whiteflame?
I already said my results.
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@Earth
wtf are you talking about? Pheonix isn't an antagonist.
If you read the article, it paints him in a very bad light. I don't remember seeing the word antagonist used though.
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@Earth
Did we play the same series?
I never played the series. All my information comes from the wiki. I did mention that I know he is the protagonist, but that's why I am heavily questioning mod psyche here. Sometimes mods will make protagonists scum because if you analyze them and who they are as a whole, they are bad. I did the same thing in ozark mafia, by making the protagonists scum, because even though they are the main characters, they are quite easily bad people. I just don't know if casey as a new mod would do this.
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Full Reveal: I am Ema Skye the tracker. I didn't want to give hints about my character because I googled her and it seemed she was obviously an investigator. This is why I was telling mharman I didn't like his plan last day phase because I felt characters like mine had obvious links to their roles based on little information, and it seemed to me there was no town benefit to get claims early on except for to give mafia info. Though I ended up having to hint rather hard that I was an investigator due to austin's ploy last day phase. Which is why I was not surprised when earth said he targeted me, because I was surprised to even get a result this day phase as I was 90% sure I would be roleblocked or night killed. With a redirect happening chances are mafia didn't catch my hint at being an investigator.
Anyways I tracked mharman and saw him visit himself.
I already had him in POE last day phase, his behavior around opting in and out of the game after I had pressured him and laid off, combined with fishing for character information, combined with just not generally doing anything I town read and being in my POE had mharman as one of my top scum reads which is why I tracked him.
Now the reason I suspect him is because I can't think of a lot of town roles that benefit from self visiting. I was considering doctor heavily, which is why I wasn't gun ho for him from the beginning. There are multiple doctor type characters in this show, and Wright isn't one of them. This is why I wanted him to character claim. If his character sounded at all doctor like I would have backed off. I guess technically a watcher would visit themselves, but it's a horrible play as watcher if you expect to be visited by scum cuz you are likely roleblocked or getting killed, and also doubted there was a watcher since I was tracker. There just isn't a ton of self visiting roles I can think of on the town side. There are many scum sided ones though, especially roles like lawyer and framer, which I mentioned previously. And those fit Wright perfectly. I asked casey if a justice would be effected by a lawyer or framer and he said yes, since they deal with affiliations the same way a justice would.
I think mharman probably tried to lawyer himself last night.
Justification for Lawyer:
From the wiki: Wright has also been a defendant himself at least three times in his life, each time either hiring a different lawyer, or representing himself.
Justification for Framer:
From the wiki: After the trial, Wright revealed to Justice that the card evidence had been forged. Justice was horrified at this and punched Wright, but he merely answered that there was no reason for him to care about what people thought of him anymore. Justice intended not to talk to Wright after that, but Wright had other plans for him.
Also from the wiki: At one point, Wright's morals were challenged when he was forced to choose between defending a guilty client to save Maya Fey or letting her die to see justice through. Eventually, during the trial of Iris, Godot challenged him to argue his case without Mia's help, and Wright prevailed. Wright also ended up rather arrogant, underestimating Klavier Gavin due to the apparent gap in experience, and he paid for this by falling right into Gavin's trap, presenting evidence of questionable and unreliable origin, which — unknowing to him — was forged, resulting in his disbarment.
Despite being the main character, wright seems very grey area. He does some protagonist like things like saving maya (despite his bully friend Larry Butz telling him not to), but ultimately he's not an all good character.
Mod psyche is the only thing kind of holding me back from all out sussing him. And if I am just dumb and missing some obviously town role that self visits, I am sorry. But I know more mafia roles that self visit than town roles.
So for this reason, I want mharman to explain further. If I ended up revealing a power role here, I am sorry for overlooking it. I tried to see this as being a town sided result, which is why I didn't out it immediately. But I can't get past the narrative in my head that mharman is a lawyer/framer.
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I am super conflicted. I am trying to decide how a new mod like Casey would theme split for the first time. Wright is technically the main character yes, but he is also friends with bullies, and uses very sketchy tactic to win his legal cases. I can easily see a case from the wiki of him being a scum lawyer or framer. Then again a lot of the characters I town read are close friends with his character doll including my own. So it’s kind of on mod psyche; would Casey, a new mod, make wright the main character scum? Part of me feels no. But he’s also played in games where mods don’t design good vs bad and had pie help mentor him on this. Though I feel pie mentoring him probably applied more to roles than characters
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Someone I think wylted or Austin said there was a chance wright could be scum but that depended on Owen flipping scum. Owen was town… idk maybe that means Mharman is town?
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Do you think Casey as a new mod would make the main character scum? I know that is a habit for old mods like myself. But pie did help him with the game.
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@Mharman
I am irritated by how much you are playing the “interesting, but I don’t wanna commit to the hard accusation” game
My vote is on you. That is an accusation is it not? I’m not hard sold you are scum just suspicious atm.
With that being said, I’ll character claim if you do
Fine deal. Savant already exposed me as an investigator anyway. I’m Ema Skye. Your turn
Also I’m at lunch real quick so I might not respond for 20-40 minutes
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@Mharman
It’s interesting how defensive you’re getting over this. It’s a very small piece of wifom, and I did say it’s plausible you could be town and guessing at the functionality. I just pointed out that it was interesting you did instead of straight up ask, and left it at that.
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@AustinL0926
at chess tourney rnno results, probs got visited by someone
You mean roleblocked? Or does getting visited mean you don't get results?
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@Mharman
I trusted what the wiki said. I suppose mods can differ but I wasn’t thinking about that; I trusted the wiki. How many mods do that anyway? Tbf I think I’ve seen you do that (i don’t really remember), but I think most mods are gonna look up how a role works on the MU or MS wiki and just use whatever’s there. But sure, very interesting post from me, Kramnik style
It's interesting only because if you were the redirector you would have already been able to ask the mod that question and thus would already know. At any rate, im just sticking with "it's interesting" for now, because yes, you could be town and just making an assumption. Honestly I am probably going to be perpetually scum reading you until you decide to character claim. You were one of my strongest scum reads last day phase, and lynching owen who was near the top of your town list doesn't help your case for me, even though you said you wanted a lynch. I feel like last game you were even admitting that pie was right in regards to the logic behind a no lynch, but now your attaching a bunch of ifs and buts to it.
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@Earth
Casey is a new mod. I can see Pie or you flavoring it as you see fit, but Casey would stick to the recipe book so to speak.
True but even you didn't just assume the role worked that way. You said you would ask and then got confirmation of it working that way.
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@Mharman
Dude it literally gave a link to the MS wiki. It literally says anyone who is strengthened cannot be interfered with by any roleblocks or redirects
I mean yeah there is a reason to believe a role works a way mafia scum says it does, but we see mods differ from MS all the time. All I said was that it was interesting that you knew about how that worked, is all.
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@Savant
I'm going to put this all on the table, since you have information and you are playing dumb.You heavily implied you are the cop. That's why you wouldn't claim, and it's why you said there was a "flaw" in my plan that you wouldn't specify. The mafia could have figured that out just as easily as me, which is why I told town protectives to be on you at night.I am suspicious of there being 2 investigative roles. Tell us what your result was, or join the POE.
If I have results that I have not revealed yet, it is because they likely reveal someone to be innocent. In which case I would like to withhold them for at least a little while. If I have results I will undoubtedly reveal them before the day phase ends, but I want to at least get some use out of them, see who tries to mislynch the person I know is innocent, etc. I promise I will reveal them before the day phase is over, but I don't see my results as particularly useful yet and I want to try and make them useful. Til then I am going to pursue some of my scum reads.
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@Earth
I'd be interested in the answer. It's funny to me mharman seems to already think the answer to that is yes
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@Earth
Does a strengthener means that a redirector can't influence your target? Like say I was redirected, would the redirect not work if you strengthened me?
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@Earth
I strengthened Lunatic. As to why not you, it's because Magistrate is a shit role and I rather make sure Luna can do whatever needs doing over whatever you would do.
I had a feeling you were gonna say that.
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@Mharman
I buy Earth’s claim now… would like to know who they targeted though
Simply because a redirector exists?
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@Savant
I can read between the lines, pal. It's probably time to tell me what you know.
???
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@Mharman
It seems strange to me you voted Casey given that in post 662 in your reads list you put him as your second strongest townread.
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@Mharman
Would you be fine with character claiming? You and earth are in my POE and I need something from you to make you look town to me. I’m still having trouble wrapping some of your behavior and actions as town so anything you can do to help that.
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