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What are other factors? It’s the targeting ones that Barney laid out. I presume it means the Roleblock from Moozer or Commuter from JoeBob
Or a scum role that blocked or prevented wylted from acting… in which case you would have inside knowledge of this for your smoking gun
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@ILikePie5
Here is what I asked verbatim:“If a Vig shot was used on Casey, would it be used up?”His response paraphrased to avoid C/P: barring other factors, it would be used up.
Sorry to say it man but this indicates to me you are scum. I got the same answer with a really big defining difference at the end, I see no reason why Austin would have clarified that difference to me and not to you. I am gonna wait in one more answer him just to make sure but this isn’t looking good
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@WyIted
He is trying g to get you to ask about earth I believe because I actually vigged earth. You should probably ask about Casey. Clearly the earth vig shot happened
I asked about Casey already and got my answer. Pies next words are very important here.
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@ILikePie5
Please ask Austin if a Vig shot on Casey would result in the shot being used up or not.Austin told me that it would be used up, meaning that Wylted would not have a shot to use NP3 if he was telling the truth. So where did the shot come from?
When you asked Austin this was this his exact answer? Are you omitting anything from the answer at all?
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It’s towncred for later. And he’s justifying it right now too with “muh POE.” Also keep in mind that JoeBob had the ability to day give a Commuter, which he probably did before being lynched. Less protective roles=better odds of success
It’s still wierd he would do that because the logic would have relied on him knowing Casey would flip right? And Wylted didn’t like directly bus him or anything.
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I gotta wait til Austin answers my question. If he answers the same way he answered pie, then it means you lied, if he gives me a vague answer or answers differently then pie bluffed and didn’t think I’d actually ask Austin, meaning pie is scum. Austins answer I think will be the nail in the coffin here.
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@ILikePie5
I already did ask Austin. So you are saying that Wylted never targeted anyone with it, just claimed to, and held onto the gun. Okay but I still feel like it would be wierd for him not to just shoot literally anyone else.
I guess it could be a big brain way to use Casey to confirm himself later on?
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@WyIted
Can you end this silliness please so we can start on the next game
Doesn’t even look like we have enough players for the next game with three regulars opting out for vacations
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@ILikePie5
He never did shoot Casey is my point. Austin corrected me and clarified by saying that “if someone shot a bulletproof Ascetic (which Casey was), obviously they wouldn’t get their shot back.”
Okay so then where did the vig shot that killed earth randomly come from? Are you saying earth killed moozer? Why?
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@Barney
Plus as scum why pretend to have tried to shoot the other one, instead of saving the bullet? Heck saved for tonight would have allowed a sneak victory.
Actually this was one of my earlier arguments for Wylted being town, but why play the whole fake “it didn’t go through” thing at all, if he knew is scum partners role he could just kill literally anyone else and say “oops I was wrong” the next day phase. He could have done it to pie at literally any point too.
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I also don't want us to make the mistake of relying too much on 'confirmable' roles.
Casey did say this as well which would work against pie who did have a confirmable role. Wylted at this point only said he did but had yet to prove it. Another hint that pie/casey may not be affiliated
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I am also noticing pie had Casey in his scum pool early on in dp1. Either he was setting up a bus really early, but there was kind of no point at this time
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Here’s a stretch for you. In this post Austin accidentally put Casey’s vote on moozer when it was wylted that voted him. Maybe Austin got the scum mate mixed up?
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@ILikePie5
Meh its probably real regardless of affiliation. I don't know what to tell you dude. I am sorry if I am pissing you off, but I actually feel like I am being more objective than normal here. If I was being a dick I would just vote you and keep my vote there the whole phase.
I know why you are getting pissed off. It's because you are a very logic based person, and when you find a point about something you tend to stick to it. A lot of my suspicion on you is based on WIFOM and POE, which isn't really something you can just answer and respond to, and that frustrates you. You want to be able to convince the person on your lynch against it, and I totally understand that.
I will say you have changed my opinion on a couple of issues, but ultimately like there isn't much you can really say on the "would I keep luna alive stuff" as ultimately that stuff's all based on wifom. You answered what you could and did a decent job it. Regardless of your affiliation, your doing your best to survive and I can appreciate that. I'm not gonna blindly tunnel you off that logic. Anyways lets all just chill out and figure this stuff out. No need to get pissy just yet.
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@ILikePie5
Can you please answer my question in Post #70. Everything else is heresay or WIFOM. Also, Wylted wouldn’t keep you alive? You think I would?It’s either leaving you alive or outting as scum.I just can’t anymore. You’re literally letting your ego get to this at this point. Fuckin asshole. Rather lose to Wylted than Pie. Boo hoo. Fuck off.
lmao i just finished reading this post. I think I only read the first line when I initially saw this post.
The rage is pretty funny. But is it genuine? I am remembering invincible now lol
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Oof still need three more. Not sure how this is gonna happen guys.
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1. Wylted
2. Whiteflame
3. iLikePie5
4. Savant
5. Casey_risk
6. Discipulus_didicit
7.
8.
9.
Replacement:
1. Barney
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@ILikePie5
Which lynch is scummier? Pie leading the lynch on Savant for using his role in an objectively scummy manner or Wylted using Moozer’s ”word slip” to lead the lynch on Joe?
Honestly, in my analysis of the mislynches in post 73, I had wylted as being scummier for participating on the savant lynch because he flip flopped his stance on savant, had originally even said he was getting town vibes from him just to end up switching to voting him. I give him some leeway due to the fact that the day phase was close to ending with a no lynch if savant wasn't lynched soon, but I also didn't like the fact that he was trying to spin you as the guilty party for that since he also participated on the lynch. Which is why dp2 I was adamant about people who joined the wagon not being able to use that lynch against you.
I thought you participation was scummier on the joebob lynch though. Wylted felt like he genuinely believed he had caught scum there, whereas your participation was very eager to join that when you came back into the day phase after having caught up finally. As scum it would have been a pretty easy mislynch. Where I give you credit, is the fact that even I joined that wagon, because yeah the commuter thing was pretty wierd thing for moozer to say, when joebob had a commuter and hadn't said anything about it before moozer did. That said it was wierd that we lynched joebob for something that was contingent on moozer being scum for, and we were giving moozer a pass til next day phase. The lynch should have been redirected elsewhere if we were waiting on moozer conf. My excuse was that I wasn't active that day phase, but I am a bit suspicious of everyone else who was willing to let moozer confirm himself but still wanting to lynch joebob. You and wylted are both equally guilty in that regard. Again though, pot calling the kettle black with me also being on that lynch.
Ultimately, I am taking both of those mislynches into account here, but I am not placing too much stock in them because at the end of the day, it's generally better to lynch than to no lynch, and both mislynches happened close to time expiring, so it was one of those things.
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I am willing to look at this with a fresh set of eyes. I am aware wylted could just as easily be scum here. I have a couple mental blocks that I've explained I am having a rough time getting around in my head. I might be getting tunnel vision on those things. Luckily its not solely my decision. I want Barney to look at everything here and check my logic. Am I focusing too hard on this? Could it really just be as simple as it being wylted who just thought earth would be a bigger threat than me in the endgame?
There are other things to consider here. Barney is a pretty smart guy, and I know he is busy atm, but when he is online I would like him to take a look at everything, tell me what he thinks and we can go from there.
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@ILikePie5
Luna, I know you’re afraid of losing to me. But for once, take your ego out of it and just use the logic.
lmao if I had my ego in this I would have voted you already. I am patiently waiting for barney at the moment.
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That’s fair, but I could’ve confirmed myself by making myself unlynchable especially after Savant publically advocated lynching me if he flipped town. Would’ve been the safer move for me.
The counter wifom argument to this, is that it would have made you look scummier. When no one fessed up to the magistrate, it would have been obvious that either you did it, or scum did it. In which case, it wouldn't have really made you look better at all.
Also consider this: if I could self target, I’d be lynchproof, not Magistrate and would CC Wylted the very next day.
It would be a 1x thing. But yeah your and wylteds roles do feel like they play opposites, which I guess is already known at this point. One of you or wylted is scum. I can see one of your roles existing as town and the other as scum.
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@ILikePie5
You’re not understanding. If Wylted kills you and Moozer, then who remains? Pie, Earth, Wylted, Barney. Barney townreads Pie, Pie townreads Barney. Earth townread Pie, which is the only explanation for not killing me. Only person scum Wylted can lynch is Earth, when me, Barney, and you agree that Wylted was scummier than Earth. Thats why he couldn’t kill you is the point I’m trying to make.
This is pre-mylo logic, and either way, he would have known he would have had to go into MYLO with one of me or barney. It just seems weird he would go into mylo with both of town reading you, just to kill earth who would be the only other potential mislynch here besides you, who would have been less likely to be mischopped by your own logic.
But why would he do that if he is scum from Wylted’s POV? Why not allow the shot on Pie to go through and then lynch Wylted with Luna, Earth, Barney, Wylted alive?
Because the shot on pie wasn't going through, according to wylted's information from the PM. It indicates that earth at least semi bought into the logic that you were town based on caseys flip. Also again, I am not entirely sure he could have vigged anyway as I pointed out already. He needed the majority of his mason pm to accomplish that, and if wylted suspected him and moozer was the night kill (would his vote have even counted?) then he couldn't reach a majority decision.
It’s not paranoia, it’s a scum shot. Town Wylted has no reason to shoot Earth after he back out of the shot on Pie.
Unless he actually thought earth was scum, which he probably did at this point. We weren't at MYLO at this point, so wylted had every reason to believe you were town prior to entering the day phase. He thought the last scum was between me and earth and you convinced him I was town, so logically he went after earth believing POE made him the last scum. You wouldn't have been a suspect at this point.
Wym give up his role? He could’ve done it DP3 but he didn’t. He could’ve asked to have a couple of votes put on him without even mentioning the sensor.
Like I said, I agree he could have played the role better. But random votes wouldn't really help him anyway, he would need votes of people he suspects, or POE people. He would have needed like me and earth on his wagon for example for it to be worth anything. Casey was dead to rights, and you were looking like confirmed town, moozer was innocent, and barney is objectively town read.
There’s similarity, but it’s different. Even if I did suspect you, saying that would’ve got me lynched DP2 cause you were lynchproof anyways, so I let it go cause I wanted to live, especially after you pulled the “wtf Pie is gearing up to mislynch Lunatic”.
I said that EOD1, before I claimed my role....
I considered the possibility that I have roles that are similar to two other townies for all of DP2 because it would in effect town confirm 2 players, but of course it’s not true.
I am misunderstanding something, this doesnt make sense to me.
I could’ve hidden it from you and Barney, but I came clean. Wylted is making excuses.
I mean he's come just as clean as you have.
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@Barney
I am just going to wait for you now. I am less convinced about pie, though still leaning him here. I am worried I am overthinking this, and I think another opinion or view on things could be helpful here.
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@ILikePie5
To be completely fair here, I can see a world where you are town, and everything you've done makes sense as town. And I am worried about getting tunnel vision here. I could be underestimating wylted severely. I think I'll back off for a while and consider things, and I do want to see what barney's thoughts are and I don't really want them to be influenced by my own confirmation bias.
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@ILikePie5
Cause Earth no long scumread me, which is why Earth backed out.
Just shows that he wasn't confident enough to vig you, or that he couldnt. He still would have had to unanimously reached a vote with two other players, wylted being one of them, to get the vig shot to even go through. And im not sure if austin would have counted moozers vote with him being the night kill. Chances are he couldn't have vigged even if he wanted to.
I can’t use the Magistrate on myself, and with Casey’s role, I physically cannot target him at night. The only reason #2 exists is because I told the truth. Remember that one of Austin’s friends thought it was town sided. Other thought it was scum sided. You also know that I don’t like claiming my role. Even when I claimed magistrate, I claimed just that, not the Watcher. This whole argument wouldn’t even exist if I didn’t say anything, which is why I’m so annoyed when there are objective truths with Wylted’s play. He’s not even trying to argue that I’m scum, just that I’m scum, period. I know that you and Barney are town. Wylted was sussing you all of yesterday.
OKay i'll give you that you couldn't use your role on casey, unless austin made scum have some wierd bypass for the role. As far as whether you could use it on yourself, all I have is your word on that, and as scum of course you would say that. At best it's a null thing
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@ILikePie5
Let’s say Wylted is town. Would Wylted not think it’s odd that if Earth is scum, not agreeing to Vig shot Pie makes no sense? Cause if he does Vig Pie, scum Earth would have an easy lynch in Wylted. That thought didn’t even cross his mind.Let’s say Wylted is scum. When Earth backs off on wanting to shoot me, that indicates to Wylted that Earth doesn’t scumread Pie, so getting Earth to lynch Pie will be harder next DP. That’s at the best. At the worst, the thinking is that Earth doesnt scumread Pie and scumreads me.
I think it just shows that earth was convinced by the bus and caseys flip. Town players tend to be pretty blind to busses. It shows that earth wasn't confident enough to kill you, that's all. Doesn't show that he wanted to kill wylted instead though, as you are implying.
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@ILikePie5
What? Okay let’s say Wylted is town. Then he is telling the truth about Earth not wanting to shoot me right? In that case why shoot Earth over Pie? Earth backed off last second—the only logical explanation for this is that he thought Wylted was scum and Pie was town, which is why he vetoed the shot. There is no other explanation. If there is, please let me know.
Like I said, earth was blinded by the bus like I was. Earth not wanting to vig you doesn't mean he thought wylted was scum though. We are still back to why wylted though I would be easier to manipulate than earth, given my stance at EOD.
Me and you were both like deadset he was the last scum with casey. There's no universe scum wylted leaves me alive, when he could have easily justified killing me and tried to use earth to mislynch you. Earth, who we know, already wanted to vig you because he had publicly stated that he would.He can’t justify killing you if Pie and Barney already know you’re town. But if he kills Earth, well then that leaves the door open to Pie being scum.
Let's be honest, if wylted was scum you would have only ever been the day's mislynch. It would have been way too much work to lead a lynch on barney, me or earth. No matter what town wylted would have killed me or earth. The fact that you convinced him I was town, and he was consistent with that logic going into the night phase screams townie to me. He had no reason to flip flop last minute after sticking to his guns all day phase that I was scum in the POE.
Are you purposefully misunderstanding wylteds role? Or do you just not actually understand he needs to be lynched in order to sensor someone on his lynch?I’m describing Wylted’s role as he said. He never said he had to be lynched to used it. He just said there have to be votes on him at the end of the DP to use it. Even then, what utility does a sensor provide if Wylted isn’t even say his results after death.
If he's lynchproof he doesn't die... So he would be able to provide results after death.
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@ILikePie5
He is pretty much using that argument already with the earth vig though. If it was just as scummy either way, why not just eliminate the bigger threat?One is objectively more scummy than the other. Would Wylted be able to convince Barney to vote for Earth after Wylted shot you? Or would he be able to convince you to vote me, which is what he’s doing right now?
Why would he as scum try convince barney to lynch earth over you? If wylted is scum, he 100% uses earth to lynch you. Bringing me into the day phase was a wild card. Your argument that he was able to convince me, is based on the contingency that you think Wylted is big brained enough to hope that I would buy into night kill analysis so much that it changed my opinion on him being scum last day phase. You already indicated you don't think that highly of wylteds scum play for one. For two, leaving me alive in hopes that I would change my mind is a way bigger gamble than even you took with bussing casey assuming you are scum. I just don't see a world in which I am alive if wylted is scum.
By vigging me, he would have left earth alive in MYLO. Earth has been pretty open about wanting you dead, and even said he was going to vig you at the start of last day phase. In his POV he would have a way easier time getting a mislynch on you as scum by leaving earth alive here.But you’re forgetting that Earth changed his mind per Wylted’s own words. Why would scum Earth not shoot Pie? Wylted didn’t even thing about this.
Changed his mind about vigging you, not that you weren't scum. That was probably only contingent on the fact casey flipped scum. I don't think earth was considering the possibility of a bus. That said, wylted still would have had a better time of convincing earth than me in LYLO, he even had an extra avenue of communication to allow him to do that. The fact that he paranoia shot him almost screams townie mistrust.
Then he would 100% get lynched. Didn’t we have a conversation that involved this exact question. We did So why didn’t he shoot you? He’d be scumread instantly. Why shoot the only remaining people? He wouldn’t be scumread.
This is irrelevant, because I have obviously flip flopped this since then. I wasn't considering a bus last day phase, because I thoguht I was still a mislynch target until that day phase based on my lack of activity. It seemed to me at the time that you were town, because your actions were confirming mine, when I really had nothing going my way in terms of confirmation, and was likely a mislynch target at that point. I wasn't thinking outside of my personal bubble, and thinking in the broader scheme of things like you would have been if you were scum trying to plan for an endgame scenario, and thus was easily manipulated by the bus. My logic and statements were completely absent of the possibility of a bus. And wylted didn't seem to care much for my opinion last day phase, as he had repeatedly insisted I was scum even after I called him out for being caseys scum partner. So I don't see him taking any stock in that threat at all.
How can he use a cop power if he’s lynched.
Because he is lynchproof.
He said that at the end of the DP, if there are any votes on him, he can choose to investigate them. He didn’t do that DP1 cause of lynchproof. Fine. But he didn’t do it DP2 or DP3 either. Why?
Look at the end of every day phase. None of the lynch trains have him as a wagon, so how could he have used his role? I'll agree with you that he probably should have advocated someone he suspects vote for him, but he would have had to give up his role for that to make any sense. He could have played the role better for sure.
Your excuse for not outing your role is basically "my actions are my actions" essentially "it is what it is".I knew I should’ve kept my mouth shut cause of bullshit like this.
Its not bullshit though. I might have understood it better if you had come out with it. It seems like you only claimed this as a nail in the coffin argument against wylted, and hoped no one would question it. And you already admitted that you thought it would cause an argument with me and you. But if you thought it would, then that means you see the similarity between the roles enough that it should have made you suspect me.
So your answers leave me with two conclusions:
Conclusion 1: You knew I was town, and didn't want to get into with me because it would make one or the other of us look bad. If you knew I am town, its because I am not in your scum pm with you. And the reason you didn't mention it was because you wanted me alive to use towards a mislynch.
Conclusion 2: The role is either fake (claimed for extra ammo), or is some variation of an actual scum information role which also makes sense considering town had two vigilante abilities at their disposal.
Simply not having an answer for why you would hide this doesn't do you any favors.
Then why would I claim it. Honesty going to get me lynched and dishonesty going to win the game for Wylted.
^^ reasons above
I don’t know why Austin added the role. Maybe scum has some role that counterbalances. I townread you cause your investigative roles are far more widespread. I scumread Wylted for lying about his role since the beginning of the day.
And you don't acknowledge in the slightest that hiding abilities is literally the exact same thing your witch hunting wylted for doing? Your ability is almost worthless compared to wylteds sensor, it at least makes sense why he hid his, to some extent.
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@Barney
Honestly, your analysis is what I care about most. For starters, if we hypothetically VNTL today, tomorrow it will be the three of you with no new intel.I'll read your posts tonight when I'm off from work (doing it during the work day, would not give a fair assessment to everything).
Feel free to check me on my logic, because I tend to get a bit tunnely when I feel I have something.
The two major things hanging me up on pie are these two things:
1. It makes no conceivable sense for wylted to not have vigged me over earth. If he knew he was going into lylo and only needed one more mislynch, earth would have helped him lynch pie. I was deadset that wylted was scum last day phase. Wylted had scum read me until right towards the end when pie convinced him I was town. Wylted could have just as easily killed me and justified the kill, and then used earth to get an easy mislynch on pie, if he was scum and pie was town. Where on the other hand pie would have been much more likely to keep me alive to kill wylted, based on where I was at at the end of the day phase.
2. Pie's passive ability makes no sense to me being town. It essentially functions like my role, but it just adds a bunch of extra information to it. Why does town need all that information? Why did pie hide that part of his role until dp4? When I asked him his answer was basically "I did what I did" or to downplay it, but it really doesn't make sense imo to hide that part of his role. It's not like it increases his threat to scum severely, he already had basically used an ability that was suppose to "town confirm" him with his magistrate ability. Which I am now questioning is a magistrate. It doesn't publicly announce that the person using it is town, it could just as easily been used to prevent scum from being mislynched. Its a role that functions as a way to give mafia some role confirmation though, and I don't think it's actual title is magistrate.
Anyways, if there is something I am missing on wylted feel free to point it out. I am open to feedback and potentially being wrong here, but yeah those are my two biggest hang ups with pie.
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@WyIted
I am going to log off for a while any more questions in the next few minutes I will answer
Okay so you couldn't have used it because all three day phase ended without one person on your wagon. Any reason you didn't advocate at least one person ending on your wagon to use this ability earlier?
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@WyIted
Can you please clarify how your "cop" investigation works? It seems me and pie have a difference in understanding how the mechanics of it work.
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@ILikePie5
There are now two objective truths in the game now:1) Wylted shot Earth after Earth did not want to shoot me (Scum Earth from Wylted’s perspective has no reason not to agree to NK Pie)
This is my whole point on why wylted probably isn't scum though. Earth had indicated he would vig shot you already, and if wylted was scum, why would he go into MYLO with both people indicating that they were wanting him dead in dp3? Me and you were both like deadset he was the last scum with casey. There's no universe scum wylted leaves me alive, when he could have easily justified killing me and tried to use earth to mislynch you. Earth, who we know, already wanted to vig you because he had publicly stated that he would.
2) Wylted claimed to have a Cop ability but in 3 days of time, never used it once. What town reason exists for that? He could’ve asked people to place a vote on him at any point in 216 hours to investigate them.
Are you purposefully misunderstanding wylteds role? Or do you just not actually understand he needs to be lynched in order to sensor someone on his lynch?
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@ILikePie5
The one reason is that by shooting you, he outs as scum cause I townread you and Barney townread you. Then we would only need to convince Earth to vote Wylted. Here he can use “muh POE” even though Earth’s action in vetoing the NK on me shows he’s Town.
He is pretty much using that argument already with the earth vig though. If it was just as scummy either way, why not just eliminate the bigger threat?
Yes and that’s what you’re doing by wanting to lynch me. You’re also forgetting that by Vig shotting you, he would basically out himself as scum cause you were essentially town confirmed by me and Barney and Wylted was already on the chopping block.
By vigging me, he would have left earth alive in MYLO. Earth has been pretty open about wanting you dead, and even said he was going to vig you at the start of last day phase. In his POV he would have a way easier time getting a mislynch on you as scum by leaving earth alive here.
Let me elaborate. Scum Wylted has 2 shots: NK and Vigilante. One of them has to go to Moozer because he’s mod confirmed and has abilities that could hinder the NK in the future. The other shot is still left. Does he kill Lunatic or Barney and out himself as scum, or kill Earth even though Earth’s action was townie. The Vig “not working on Casey” isn’t genuine surprise if he already knew that it wasn’t going to work. If your gut says he’s telling the truth fine, but a serial liar is going to lie over and over again.
Where this logic falls apart, is that if he's scum with control of the vig kill, he can use it on almost any townie he wants to and can justify it. He had me in his scum POE all last day phase, and was only convinced otherwise by you at the end. Why even bother letting himself be convinced, when he can just get rid of me, who was practically GG'ing him at the end there where it would have seemed obvious I hammer him in a lylo situation, where he could just kill me and substantiate it the same way he was last day phase.
It’s literally the exact same thing. Wylted hid from claiming his full rull until today, and you accused him of lying. The difference is I don't actually know what benefit you provided us by hiding your role. It at least makes sense for him to bait being a vanilla if he still had a sensor ability, assuming he was town. Knowing how many killing actions were used doesn't seem nearly as useful to hide.I disagree. Wylted knowingly claimed Perma Lynchproof when he was 1x. He didn’t even use his supposed cop power. What town reason exists to not use the Cop power? My actions are my actions. I chose to not disclaim it ahead of time, but I could’ve just chose not mention it. I’m being honest, and I’ve been honest this entire game.
Wylted "cop power" is actually a sensor, and it sounds like he can't use it until he is lynched. He was never lynched, how could he use this ability? Your excuse for not outing your role is basically "my actions are my actions" essentially "it is what it is".
If you aren't going to give a town reason for doing this, all I have left is to assume you had a scum reason for doing this. Which is that my ability is basically a CC to that, and as you pointed out, you didn't want to claim it because you thought it would distract the day phase. But this would have indicated you thought I was town confirmed, and if you virtually counter claim me with your role, you have no reason to town confirm me. It makes no sense that I would be in your town POE except that you wanted to use me to mislynch wylted in LYLO. If you arent able to provide a town reason for not outing this role, I have only to assume the scum motivations. Or that the role is in fact made up.
So did you just assume I was town then? Why didn't my role make you scum read me then?When you claimed your role, I did assume you were town. You barely talked DP2, and I still townread you enough that I watched you. Your role is far more investigative than mine. Also Wylted had a lynchproof and I had a magistrate which are contradictory. It’s not inconceivable that you were town as well because your role is sort of contradictory to mine as well.
Your role just adds clarification to my role, and it doesn't make sense for town to have all that information. My role already forced casey into having to scum lock a passive role. Why does town need two roles like this one that clarifies killing actions? Further why did you think there wouldn't be multiple voting utility roles in the day phase, but thought there would be multiple action defining ones???
He knows they are town now, based on flips. This is a bit manipulative.Right now he does, but before he didn’t.
It was clear to me he wasn't saying he knew they were town when he revealed info to him, but is claiming that we know they are town then. I just think this point was a little desperate.
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@Barney
I think I am pretty much decided here. Read through my analysis, tell me what you think. I just don't see how I am alive right now if wylted is scum. Unless he was maybe just ultra paranoid I would have another vest from you this day phase. We will need your vote to lynch pie though. If you think I am missing something I am open to hearing it.
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Okay I want to take my interaction with pie out of the puzzle for a moment, and look at facts and be as objective as possible here.
I will analyze what I think scum wylted and pie would do, based on motive, incentive, player stances at the time, etc..
DP1, and the Savant mislynch: The savant mislynch is something I from the beginning never thought was the strongest lynch in the game. Unfortunately I was a bit busy dp1 and couldn't really contribute much in the way I wanted, so I can't be too judgeful of this one.
Town Pie: To be fair to pie, I can see pie pursuing this lynch as town too. The reasoning in my opinion was bad, but pie tends to have a very objective view of mafia, in that he sees something as logical or illogical, he will pursue that logic unashamedly. In this case it was "The vote thief is anti town" logic. I have seen him use the same logic about anti town roles in the past, so this is why I was excusing pie for this logic initially. Everyone knows how pie acts with millers, despite the fact that they have commonly been mislynched as town. To pie, negative utility = needs to be lynched. The town argument is that no one else including myself had another lead and he was one of the few people causing activity that day phase, if he was wrong well then "Where were you with your other 'better' lead"?
Scum Pie: If pie is scum, he can just use the logic "I would have done this as town" and he'd probably be right too. This playstyle pie uses allows him to get mis-lynches that he can always justify that way. Scum pie can always use this logic to get mislynches and the next day just say "I was wrong, I fvcked up, but I don't see the mod doing this" etc therefor passing the blame to the mod. Which again, he would also do as town.
Town Wylted: When wylted voted, we were running low on time, so it was between that and a no lynch. He also had some role-related reasons to believe savant was scum since he felt vote thief was a semi counter to his role
Scum Wylted: Wylted did flip flop on this lynch, in post 542 told savant he felt town. Instantly puts blame on pie at the end of the day phase, despite joining him on the lynch, which is pretty hypocritical. It's one of the reasons I started in on people for condemning the wagon-starter despite having also joined in on the wagon. Seems like a scum motivated move to join a mislynch and try to avoid blame for partaking of it.
DP2 and the joebob mislynch: I can't be too judgeful of this one either, I did board the lynch buying into the scum slip logic, however, in hindsight it is kind of wierd that we took joebob out by affiliation when we would have known whether the whole logic fell apart via moozer being confirmed in one day phase. It's almost like this was another day phase where we waited til last minute and were forced into deciding one way because the whole conversation thus far was about this supposed scum slip.
Town Wylted: Being wrong isn't a sin, and to be fair it was really really weird that a commute was mentioned when joebob had the only other ability that allowed commuting. In the end even I took this bait. Bad luck for moozer I guess, but we all definitely invested too much into that train of thought. I will say the presentation wylted made and the case he had, it felt like a genuine with hunt. I felt that he actually believed this was the scum team at the time. He was pretty passionate, and I feel like scum would be more wary about casting absolute certainty like this knowing how it would look if they were wrong.
Scum Wylted: Scum wylted could have just pursued this logic knowing it was a safe mislynch, and maybe he over exagerated how "confirmed" he felt this mislynch was. It was definitely easier than the savant mislynch to acheive due to the nature of the "slip" and he could easily pass of guilt over being wrong to this being a "noob" who fvcked up.
Town Pie: Pie did have casey in his POE early in this day phase, as of post 55 (though I suppose he could have been planning a bus since early).
Scum pie: Pie looked good this day phase with the magistrate ability. It's only now, knowing that it wasn't strictly a magistrate, that this ability could just have easily been a scum role that we question it. Also it seems he literally only used this role to confirm himself. While this isn't a role that has a ton of town utility, the only town utility I can see him using this role on me for is if he was worried I would be a mislynch and he firmly believed I was town. He had no reason to think I was town at this point, and even had placed me null from town read at the end of the previous day phase based on my activity. So this role was used literally just to confirm himself. Anyways, pie knew he would get flack in this day phase for being wrong on the savant lynch and pressing it so hard, and he did get some pressure. pie came back to the day phase several pages after wylted points out the slip, but boards the logic immediately, despite scum reading wylted earlier (for much of the same reasons he is still pursuing this phase). Overall this mislynch does a lot more for pie than it does for wylted IMO, because Pie already suspected wylted, so in the case where joebob flips town, its more ammo for his arsenal. Also this mislynch largely took pressure off himself from the savant mislynch.
The Night Kills: For the sake of argument, we are going to assume that earth was the vig kill, and moozer was the night kill. No one here seems to object that, and moozer only makes sense as a night kill, being confirmed. So we just have to look at whether the vig was town owned, or scum owned, and analyze who had more motive to shoot who as either affiliation.
Town Wylted: So if wylted is town here, then we are to assume he is being 100% honest with what he claims he did. In this case, he claims he shot earth due to POE. This lines up with where wylted was at towards the end of DP3. He had initially posited I was scum and pursuing that end until pie had convinced him otherwise. post 105 indicated where he switched from scum reading me to earth. I was indicating having scum read wylted at this point, so if he is scum, why on earth does he leave me alive in MYLO? This is what gives him the most town cred imo, because he chose to act in what he thought was towns best interest by eliminating POE, rather than survival. Because at that point I was dead set on lynching Wylted, was even going as far as to type endgame comments to him, like "GG" and telling him he played well, etc.
Scum Wylted: You can argue the earth kill was scummy based on his role, and being "technically" confirmed, but at the time I was positing that there could be a scum mason recruiter, and even pie had pointed out austin was likely if anyone was, to put this type of role on the scum team. Ultimately the only thing townier he could have done here was waived the vig kill. Moozer would have been an objectively easy decision no matter who is scum in this scenario, based on being confirmed town. No matter who is scum here, you want to enter LYLO with as many mislynch oppertunities as possible.
Town pie: Same logic with wylted being scum, moozer was an objective kill that doesn't paint anyone as being more likely than the other.
Scum pie: Scum pie at the end of the day phase thought he had this game locked down. If I didn't change my mind, and was still on board to lynch wylted as I was at the end, there is no way he kills me. I think scum pie chooses the safer kill in moozer and banks on being able to convince me and barney to get the mislynch on wylted. Wylted, on paper seems like a good mislynch target. It's only when adding it up in the face of everything else, where it starts to not make sense.
Ultimately:
From my perspective the only thing that makes sense for me being alive and wylted being scum, is if he big brained the logic that I would switch to being suspect of pie based on still being alive. That requires a lot of respect on wylteds scum game, and if he is actually scum then he definitely deserves props for that. But leaving me alive is way too much of a gamble for wylted based on EOD lunatic. I see wylted as clever enough to do it, don't get me wrong, but if he had the game this close to winning it doesn't make sense to risk it. And it lines up perfectly with where he was at the end of the last day phase. No flip flops or crazy justifications neccesary to explain his actions. Scum are more likely to go for the oppertunistic kill here every time than the risky one. There is just no way I see wylted leaving me alive.
I think I am willing to die on this hill. If I am wrong, I guess I have to apologize to pie in the endgame, but that would also be a massive scum respect play by wylted, and I'll never underestimate wylted again in the future if he is actually scum here.
But the night kills and mislynches indicate to me that it is more likely pie than wylted.
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@ILikePie5
Scumslip #2. He had no way of knowing that he was sharing to two townies unless he was scum.
He knows they are town now, based on flips. This is a bit manipulative.
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@ILikePie5
It really doesn’t make sense to me why you didn’t out this information then if you suspected him and Casey both as you indicated last day phase. Wylted not knowing why his action went through would have to assumed he was actively blocked or something. If he was scum and had a vig shot why hold onto it?I did suspect him last DP, but a world did exist where he could’ve been roleblocked or “jailkept” as he claimed, so I didn’t think necessary. This is WIFOM but I could’ve just not claimed my passive ability and went with the flow.
What was the harm in revealing your passive ability though? I don't get why you would hide that part of your role.
Why not just create a case for using it on someone else (like me for example, since he suspected me).I don’t know what roles/abilities scum have besides a flipped bulletproof/ascetic basically.
??
At the end of last day phase, me and you were assuredly talking about how we would come into this day phase lynching wylted. At that point I was all but sure he was scum. He actually scum read me too, until you changed his mind towards the end of the day phase. My question is, why would he target earth over me if he was actually scum? If he was scum he knew leaving me alive was a liability based on my EOD stance in dp3. Earth was just as likely to misvig if he even vigged at all.
I should have been killed last night, the only reason I am alive now is if someone wanted to use me to get a mislynch. Earth only ever indicated wanting to use the vig kill on you, and outside of that he was only lynching casey last day phase. With you convincing wylted I was town last day phase, his action actually makes sense here as town. If he was scum I would be dead.
Seems if he was scum he would have used it and just justified why he was wrong about it, like he is doing with earth. He could have done that same thing last day phase and just killed me instead. Why go through the whole process of fake being roleblocked at all?He could’ve, but it’s WIFOM and Wylted is illogical to begin with. It makes sense that he would bus his partner to gain the town cred that he used his Vig shot and there was none remaining. He ran with that all of last DP. Also remember that Moozer still had 3 abilities including a roleblocker and rolestopper.
I think wylted can be chaotic, and maybe a bit rash, but I don't think he is illogical. I think he is actually a very decent mafia player when he has his head in the game. He is just as likely to do something stupid because he acted without thinking, but the kind of decision making you are implying here doesn't sound like something scum wylted does at all. And usually wylted admits when he did something stupid because he overlooked a thing, or didn't think of a thing. Also I don't get your point with the moozer thing, moozer never claimed to have blocked him. Wylteds confusion at why his vig didn't work on casey seems 100% legit to me.
So if your trying to tell me that you think earth was wylteds night kill target that earth had to have used his big shot on moozer who was an innocent townie and confirmed dp3. Why on ewould earth do that lolNo, you’re misunderstanding. Wylted never used his own vig shot on Casey, so he had it left and used it on Earth.
I already know this, wylted has already admitted to vigging earth. I was confused what you were saying, I thought you were saying he used the night kill on earth, and earth uesd the vig on moozer for some reason.
Am I wrong or missing something here?1. Pie is saying we should suspect Wylted for lying about his role, when our has added something about his role each day phase now. If he’s covering information for a not yet used role that’s fine, but it’s hypocrital of him to tell us to sus Wylted for doing the same.Hiding my passive ability (which I didn’t even have to claim) vs never even trying to use the cop ability as a townie and lying by claiming a perma lynchproof to take the vig shot is different imo.
Its literally the exact same thing. Wylted hid from claiming his full rull until today, and you accused him of lying. The difference is I don't actually know what benefit you provided us by hiding your role. It at least makes sense for him to bait being a vanilla if he still had a sensor ability, assuming he was town. Knowing how many killing actions were used doesn't seem nearly as useful to hide.
2. Do you think a role like mine would also exist along side a role that clarifies actions passively as killing? Also shouldn’t that have made pie suspect me when I claimed this role early day phase 2? Why didn’t he mention his role along side mine then? What harm was there to do it?Tbh I didn’t want to get in a fight with you and derail the entire DP after getting into one with Savant. So I kept my mouth shut about this.
So did you just assume I was town then? Why didn't my role make you scum read me then?
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@Barney
Am I wrong or missing something here?
1. Pie is saying we should suspect Wylted for lying about his role, when our has added something about his role each day phase now. If he’s covering information for a not yet used role that’s fine, but it’s hypocrital of him to tell us to sus Wylted for doing the same.
2. Do you think a role like mine would also exist along side a role that clarifies actions passively as killing? Also shouldn’t that have made pie suspect me when I claimed this role early day phase 2? Why didn’t he mention his role along side mine then? What harm was there to do it?
3. He is trying to tell us that earth was wylteds night kill target and that your big shirt was used. If that’s the case where did the moozer kill come from? He said the second kill had to be by earths vig. But he doesn’t explain why earth would kill moozer. Why would we believe that earth would kill a confirmed innocent townie?
Is it just me missing something or is pies story not just full of holes here? Are you seeing the same thing I am?
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@ILikePie5
I caught Casey as scum lying about being a passive role and visiting Lunatic and got him lynched. Also, note Casey’s confession:It's alright. To be honest, I didn't see myself surviving this DP anyway. I didn't see that watcher thing coming, though.Austin, we have enough votes now. I'm out.Note how he thought he was getting lynched even before my watcher report. The bus was on since the beginning before I even outted my watcher report.
Come on pie you know this is wifom logic. Under the assumption this is the bus, you obvious would have told him to say something like that to make it look like you aren’t affiliated. The fact that you are using this logic almost makes it seem even more likely he was told to say this lol.
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Also if you going to accuse Wylted of lying by hiding parts of his role you have to admit that you did the same thing as each day phase you have now claimed to have an additional ability that you didn’t claim having before.
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@ILikePie5
Looking like it yeah. Also now we know why your vig shot failed, Casey was a passive roleblockerIf the shot was used up in NP2, how was it used in NP3? The neighborhood had a shot. Earth would never shoot himself and therefore would veto a shot on himself. The shot had to have come from Wylted, who basically scum slipped in this post:
So if your trying to tell me that you think earth was wylteds night kill target that earth had to have used his big shot on moozer who was an innocent townie and confirmed dp3. Why on ewould earth do that lol
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@ILikePie5
DP3 in hindsight I should’ve brought it up that my report stated only one kill and Wylted claimed he was jailkept.
It really doesn’t make sense to me why you didn’t out this information then if you suspected him and Casey both as you indicated last day phase. Wylted not knowing why his action went through would have to assumed he was actively blocked or something. If he was scum and had a vig shot why hold onto it? Why not just create a case for using it on someone else (like me for example, since he suspected me). Seems if he was scum he would have used it and just justified why he was wrong about it, like he is doing with earth. He could have done that same thing last day phase and just killed me instead. Why go through the whole process of fake being roleblocked at all?
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@ILikePie5
If you think he killed earth then where did the moozer kill come from?
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Yeah I think we need to get on the same page for a Lynch today. Waiting on pie and Barney to provide some thoughts.
In my shoes it’s either wylted or pie. I wanna sit down and put a town case and a scum case for each of them and weigh them against each other a bit later when I have the time. I have a lot of thoughts just need to organize them and put them together and sift through everything.
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@Barney
I am “if a bear farts in the Forrest and no one is around to smell it does it still stink?”
I basically had two 1x abilities, if I chose yes to the question I learned how many players acted in a night, if I chose no I would learn how many actions occurred in a night. I chose the first one np1 and learned five players including myself had acted (or moved) aka used an ability.
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@WyIted
I am pretty sure pie is scum.
Looking like it yeah. Also now we know why your vig shot failed, Casey was a passive roleblocker
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