Total posts: 4,276
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
You’re saying that it would have been beneficial for town for me to give my actual role instead of biding out roles that manipulate my movement?
How is lying about your role not anti-town? Otherwise, scum could just claim they lied about their role whenever they are counterclaimed.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I guess we’re all just assuming that there can’t possibly have been two means by which scum could nullify night actions, then?
How is nullifying night actions not role-blocking?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Barney
@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
@AustinL0926
@JoeBob
Right now, Best.Korea is the closest to a confirmed player and has no reason to lie. Best.Korea's role was unsuccessful last night. That's a fact. Best.Korea is the doctor, so his role can't have failed for the same reason WF believes Austin's did. Meanwhile, whiteflame insists that he was roleblocked on the same night as BK, while he has previously insisted that two very similar roles are impossible. That should make whiteflame our number one lynch target today.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
So that leads me to believe there are likely two RBs
my role is a bit different from what I claimed in DP1
So you lied about your role and also claim that you were roleblocked on the same night as the doctor. How are two role blockers not a "pseudo-cc" according to you?
VTL Whiteflame
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Three role blockers and 5 protective roles?
If there are three role blockers, then maybe the existence of multiple protective roles isn't that unlikely with this mod.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Still don't trust Casey. Don't trust whiteflame much either though, so he's my second choice for a lynch.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheUnderdog
The first relationship has a much bigger power imbalance but that is the only relationship where it is legal for it to be sexual
This is largely because age-of-consent laws, like most age restrictions, are meant to cover general cases, not edge cases. The aim is to reduce overall coercion; I don't think they could even hope to eliminate it entirely. Note that even if we lower the age to 13 or something, we'd still have the same hypothetical of Elon and a 14-year old vs a random 35-yr-old and a 13-yr-old. Add that most people don't know or care much about the nuances of age-of-consent laws, and we're left with an imperfect system that is hopefully better than nothing.
I think you need to be able to pass the driving test to get to drive legally.
I think some 12-year-olds would probably pass. And you only need to pass a written test to drive with an adult. It's at least a step toward seeing how minors can handle responsibility.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheUnderdog
The same would be true for a 63 year old and a 19 year old.
With that one I think you might get a majority response of "it should be legal but it's still not moral." But you may be correct, and I think it shows that what brings people to the polls is not always what they say they want. I'm mostly just responding to your comment of "nobody calls it pedophillia"—even if crowdsourcing was reliable, it's not very consistent.
If the sole issue is that young people can’t consent, then it wouldn’t matter how old the older person was.
I think what most people object to is a perceived power dynamic between a 35-year-old and a 14-year-old. We could try and measure that empirically, but it would require having a control group of 14-year-olds having sex with each other and then an experimental group of 35-year-olds having sex with 14-year-olds. Most people would have obvious moral concerns with running such an experiment.
If we really want to test how maturity correlates with age and the resulting effects on society, it would be safer to start with some other thing. Create a children's parliament where 14-year-olds can vote for people, and measure how successful it is. Lower the age at which minors can drive with an adult in the car. Study how easily emancipated minors get scammed by adults.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheUnderdog
I’ve met people in my life who have said the age of consent should be 13 but not lower.
When I encounter people who say that, they are usually under the impression that age of consent only determines when you can have sex with other people your age. If you actually poll people on whether a 35-year-old should be allowed to have sex with a 15-year-old, the majority answer will be "no" in most Western countries. People simply don't know or don't care about age of consent laws until one is broken, then they say "why isn't there a law against this???"
Ages of consent in the US aren't much higher than in Europe, but the general attitude is the same.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheUnderdog
Europe has really low ages of consent and nobody calls it pedophillia
If a 35-year-old in France has sex with a 15-year-old, they will be called a pedophile by like 90% of people there. Why those same 90% of people don't make a law against it I don't really understand.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
@Lunatic
@Best.Korea
@AustinL0926
My vote stays where it is on Casey. I don't understand Earth's insistence that Casey is town with zero justification. Earth hasn't acted super pro-town up to this point, despite being a likely town member, so I'm not sure why I should just buy whatever he says. I could see a case for maybe lynching whiteflame in dp2, but not today.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
That wasn’t my aim, so I apologize if that’s how it came through
No worries. We can revisit this in the next day phase.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I don't know if I said something to offend you, but it wasn't my intent. I didn't mean for things to get super hostile, so I'll respond to a few general points and leave it at that.
So... I guess you're just ignoring the bases for my other reads?
I'm not ignoring that, I'm saying I would expect you to analyze behavior on everyone in addition to just mentioning their role claim and where it fits in the theme.
I've stated outright several times that you're my pick for the lynch this DP.
I must have missed that. Not an accusation, but I'll look back to see where you said this. I thought I'd read pretty carefully.
I've given that reasoning already and explained how other roles you've suggested are similarly "pseudo-CC's" from the LotR game aren't nearly as similar.
I'm not saying your logic is bad, I'm saying I won't automatically assume it's the same logic Moozer uses.
I'm not going to revisit those points here because I seem to be the only one interested in this lynch this DP. I'm not expecting to dramatically shift the direction of the lynch at this point, but I am going to make my view clear.
Agreed. I'd rather leave things on amicable terms.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
At least ping me...
behavior so far is that he's pretty townie
It's almost the end of the day phase, but Barney is the only one you give a behavioral read on out of all the people you mention. Is he acting particularly townie, or is there some other reason you seem to have ditched behavioral reads almost entirely?
So, yes, my pick is still Savant
Seems like you've been breadcrumbing this a bit without saying it outright. I don't have a problem with moving this argument to the next day phase, since there's been little town support for lynching either of us, but I will note that I have disagreed with a good chunk of your analysis up to this point if it wasn't already obvious from our back-and-forth earlier. If I'm on the table for a lynch, then I'll say right now that you should be as well, since I don't think Austin's read was unjustified. He outed me as scum in a previous game, he outed Pie as scum in a previous game, and now he suspects you. I suspect we'll get to this more in dp2, but it's worth mentioning.
even if I leave my distrust of his claims and discount the CC
We've already established that it's a pseudo-CC, not a CC. I don't see a reason to equate them. You've given your reasoning for why you think the claims are very similar as opposed to kind of similar, since we agree that similar roles can and have existed in the same game before. There's a method to your madness there, but you're also not the one assigning roles. Moozer is, with maybe some input from Pie. I see no strong reason to assume that his reasoning for role assignment would be the same as yours.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@JoeBob
If he was scum his partner would have told him to speak to avoid suspicion
I find it more unbelievable that he would be this silent as town. Right now Casey being silent has led us to discuss other avenues. He might think his best bet is to stay quiet so we can't push him more. His posting nothing is extremely anti-town, and I don't see how it makes him less scummy at all.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
I doubt the game is actually "solved" this early. Behavior is going to matter, and if you don't learn to do behavioral reads, you can easily be manipulated by scum who pretend to know more about behavior than you do.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
@AustinL0926
It's not even a certainty that either of you are scum, so I don't see the point in this arguing when neither of you are really lynch options dp1. Casey is likely our lynch, so unless you have alternatives for today, we should be pressuring him to defend himself.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
The doctor thing makes him a possible suspect, but idk if the town has the will to lynch him based on just recent behavior. If it's between him and someone else, maybe I'll change my tune, but I don't know if lynching him today is even on the table. Really it depends on Luna.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
@AustinL0926
mod asked a question about if he should notify a doctor
That's true. Definitely makes BK's claim more likely than WF's.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
I'm mainly hesitant with BK because he said "My role 100% confirms me as town as soon as claimed" which is just blatantly false. I thought he was some version of the innocent child or something.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
Now I'm starting to doubt the other players who claimed they're confirmable
Did you just get here? lol
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Overwhelming majority of games have doctor
It'd definitely not a certainty if there is a bodyguard.
Created:
Posted in:
At least I was upfront about not being confirmable. Do people have some aversion to just being straightforward in this game?
Created:
Posted in:
By the logic everyone is using, I should have just said I was confirmable since I can maybe be confirmed under some circumstances.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
So your role doesn't make it obvious you are town, especially with a possible bg in play. You are hypothetically confirmable, but you could also be scum and lying.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Still, he is a bodyguard, which I find a bit odd that both doctor and bodyguard are in game
Are you the doctor then? I don't think anyone else has claimed that role.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
@AustinL0926
Right now, we need someone who is a feasible lynch target today, and I don't see any of this catfighting accomplishing that. For all that has been said about me, JoeBob, and Whiteflame, I don't think most of the town has expressed an interest in lynching any of us on day one. Lunatic could jump the gun and do things his own way, but I think he's going to take town input into strong consideration.
Casey's name has been brought up a few times, and their absence has made them more suspicious, especially since they were online an hour ago. Casey will have an opportunity to defend themselves, and I hope they post something soon. But until then,
VTL Casey_Risk
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Also, what's the connection between Revali and 2x cop?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
I'm going to give you nothing today.
You silly goose.
VTL Earth
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
I still think it's splitting hairs, but we've said everything we can really say at this point. I do want a claim from Earth, and we can come back to the other thing if we have time and you think it's super important.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Also, Sam and Merry&pippin function pretty similarly. Become the target of some other plyer.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
You can argue that you could activate your role via the Granny, so that is a distinction as well
I can't visit people, so I can't die via the granny.
To be honest though, I don't think Moozer is super clear on "pseudo-cc's" and that mods are supposed to avoid them.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
You should really claim at this point, since you're likely going to have to anyway and it just looks more suspicious the longer you wait.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Bodyguard and doctor are similar roles, though they're mainly just the same broad category. Sam and Merry&pippin are pretty similar through.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Yeah, not like mafia are about to go out of their way to confirm someone for the town.
Created:
Posted in:
Oh wait I misread that. JoeBob only survives mafia night kills.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Barney
@whiteflame
@AustinL0926
@JoeBob
Do I need to state the obvious here? JoeBob and Granny can confirm each other.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
@JoeBob
Well that's interesting. Why did no one tag me about this? Anyway...
That is a similar role, even if it's not exactly the same. Not sure if Moozer would put both in the game, but he is a new mod. Given that Moozer messed up the last game and half the justifications don't make sense, I'm not about to say two similar roles are an impossibility.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Saying that kind of gives away exactly what it is.
Created:
Posted in:
Doesn't help that it's been radio silence from Earth and Casey for a while.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
that’s an oddly specific spot to carve out for scum
Not really. Giving all the obvious claims to town members would make the game very unbalanced, so I'd be more surprised by there not being a spot carved out for scum.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
@Best.Korea
That said, I think we've all kind of made up our minds on what we think we can learn from the theme split. It's possible that the split is heroes vs. villains, and it's also possible that all six champions are in the game. I think there's a good chance that at least one of those things isn't the case, but we won't have more to go on there until someone dies.
That leaves behavioral reads, which I haven't seen brought up as much. The good news is that we still have a day to figure out who's been acting the most scummy.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Claiming to be one of the six doesn't automatically require a fake claim if they specify their role late or have more general information about what roles are available to claim.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Barney
All right. As others have pointed out, Luna is unlikely to survive to the end game, so we may as well confirm him today.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Best.Korea
Its possible, but unlikely
Why is it unlikely? If there's one scum there, there could easily be two.
Created: