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@BrotherDThomas
As I have shown in my initial post, I knew the Bible ignorant Tradesecret could never address the outright outcome of 1 Timothy 4:10,
Indeed and after all his proud bragging to be one of only a few on the forum that he "always provides evidence for his claims" I have shown him to be a spinner of very tall tales #30
I still say that Tradesecret is an outright POE/Parody of a pseudo-christian.
I have to agree. He has failed miserably after all his claims and word salad, on this thread https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4736-then-why-baptize-him?page=1
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@K_Michael
Yes they are. What do you want from me?
What ever causes you to think that I want anything from you? You have addressed the op in a fashion as an atheist and also my question I will call on you in the future if ever I feel the need to . At the moment I don't want or need anything from you. So now you can go.
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@Dr.Franklin
im not interested in the OP #29
Then you are willfully and purposefully agitating and trolling. Against the rules
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@BrotherDThomas
Stephen,YOUR REVEALING AND CORRECTLY ANSWERED QUOTE: "Brother, it appears that once again you (and Timothy) have, with one single verse, blown the idea that none believers won't be going to heaven , clean out the water."Yes, with the correct syntactical reading of 1 Timothy 4:10, EVERYONE is truly saved whether they believe in the serial killer Jesus or not. Look at the good side of this biblical axiom, you and I will meet again in the Christian 1400 square mile Heaven with it's 60 high walls, that should keep out the Mormons and JWs! Just think of getting together again, where in Heaven there will be NO WOMEN, where this alone is worth the free ride to the Pearly Gates!Yes, it will be a glorious day when we are there, but the only aspect that I regret in the future of Heaven, is there will be so sex since there will be no women. Whereas, I followed Jesus' words while upon earth in being fruitful and multiplying (Genesis 1;28), and in doing so, I went through many wives because their life ambition was to be able to sit up. :(.In any event, praise Jesus' TRUE words!
I also notice that the apologist here have given the OP a very wide birth.
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@K_Michael
As an atheist, I clearly believe they're both wrong.
They are contradicting one another.
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@Tradesecret
Otherwise people like you and me would not have come to it.But it wasn't scripture that brought me to my conclusions and neither was it you.So Mr Genuis,Where did I get the idea from if it was not the Bible?How would I know? That is what I am asking you to show me- genius. Did you miss the word "me" in the quote above. I was speaking for myself not you- genius.And you have failed AGAIN to provide the evidence that you so proudly brag that you always do provide.Ok. So you don't know where you get this idea?
Are you being a total prat on purpose. You say you got the idea that Jesus was baptised by John a priest king from the very " clear evidence in the bible" . I simply said I didn't get the idea that Jesus was a priest and king from the bible and neither did I get the idea from you. You have since said:
Tradesecret wrote: " Because I take the view that the evidence is there [in the bible] and it is clear."
I have asked you to show us this "clear" biblical evidence the John baptised Jesus a Priest and a King ?
Yet, I also add, that for me this is clear evidence. Hence I did not lie.
So where is it! ? You do not have any do you? You have once more been caught simply lying for want of a reply , response or an answer.
it would take more time to gather all of the evidence I have to suggest otherwise - and I simply can't be bothered at the moment do that.
So it is not so "clear" that you can put your finger on this very important "evidence" in an instance.? There is none and you know it!.
You lied, like many Christians do once they have painted themselves into a corner. There is no - as you say - "clear evidence" in the bible that shows John baptising of Jesus a Priest or a King. You made it up out of sheer desperation simply because you had no answer . And you have the gall to say I am always desperate to be right. You keep forgetting, I have absolutely nothing to prove about Jesus or the bible. I don't have a horse in the race my friend.
Don't worry, you are not on your own. I haven't found a single Priests or Christian in over 40 years that can answer this question.
But I repeat, I do agree that Jesus was a King and a Priest and a High Priest at that or at least he and many others of the time believed him to be the rightful heir to the throne of Jerusalem.
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@Tradesecret
I am not going to stop just because you dislike it.
And I wouldn't expect you to.
I do not understand why God was ok with the killing of the 10 children nor do I actually think he was ok with it.
Make your mind up. Your god gives a free pass to an animal the he himself had been sentenced to eat dirt "for the rest of its days" for corrupting mankind Genesis 3:14
I do not believe it God thought life was cheap.
Of course you don't. This is you again trying to defend the indefensible. You have no answers for these barbaric actions but still you try your upmost to defend this egotistical psychopathic god.
This goes against the rest of the Bible.
No it doesn't. This god doesn't stop killing after the creation story. He sentences everyone to death almost from the start and orders the death of millions. He cannot help himself.
I certainly see the lessons provided in this story. And I have to say that I still see God as the hero in this text.
Of course you do. I don't expect you to see anything bad about your god even though the evidence is clear that he will kill someone, anyone , man, woman or child at the drop of a hat"
I see Satan as the bad dude.
Of course you do, although the body count for your god is said to be in the region of 227,037% higher than Satan's.
I see God as the one who vindicates.I see Job as the one who is vindicated.
There is none so blind than he who refuses to see. Your god was wagering Jobs faith and loyalty although he knew the outcome. It was to prove Satan wrong and himself right at the cost of so much misery.
I see his friends as people who saw the world wrongly. I see Job's family as victims. But not victims of God, but of Satan
Have you actually read the fkn story! The idea was all you egomaniac gods idea .
And you haven't explained why a god would need to prove anything to anyone? A god, it appears that felt he had to prove something ( how great he was) to a literal lowlife belly crawling serpent that had been condemned years before to eat dirt for the rest of its life?
I am not sure that God has a need to prove anything to anyone. I think he did knew Job. And Job was vindicated.
Satan wanted to find faults with God's logic.
It had nothing at all to do with logic. It was all to do with gods ego:
Job 1:6. One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” 9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.
10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 THE LORD SAID TO SATAN, 2 VERY WELL,THEN, EVERYTHING HE HAS IS IN YOUR POWER BUT ON THE MAN HIMSELF DO NOT LAY A FINGER".
So you see, your god handed Jobs ten children to Satan on a plate and didn't bat an eyelid. But is was all ok wasn't it? Children it seems were literally ten a penny to your god because god gave job more kids it is said. This shows how cheap life is to you psychopathic god.
I don't think that this was about proving anything to Satan,
It was everything to do with proving Satan to be wrong and god being right.. at the cost of piles of misery for one loyal earthly being.
- but you know what, I think the fact that you want to prove yourself right is something that is important to you.
What you believe and think about me is irrelevant.
I think you are wrong. Very Wrong and that story of Job is a great example if God's love and compassion.
Love and compassion! ? wtf are you on about? Where was the compassion shown in this story of willful and wanton violence? Where was the love shown to Job and his children? Job certainly didn't see it as "love and compassion" did he.
And what was Satan doing just “ roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” when he had been sentenced to crawl on his belly to be "the lowest of all the animals" and to "eat dirt all of his days".?
" So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, "Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life." Genesis 3:14
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@K_Michael
Mark 1 6:16, KJV: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."By this definition, only Christians and Mormons would make it into heaven.So this is Mark contradicting Timothy then? Or is Timothy contradicting Mark? Which one of them is correct ?I'm an atheist. The bible is often contradictory.
That doesn't answer my question but I do agree, that the gospels do at times contradict one another as shown above once again by the Brother. What's more, Christians themselves often disagree and contradict one another often.
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@Tradesecret
It does seem to say more about the author than the Yahweh. I agree absolutely about the ending however. It is unsatisfactory that the answer is "don't question me when I torment you!"Of course it is not God doing the tormenting. It is Satan. But that point does not even register in this discussion. In fact God actually limits what Satan might have done because he loved Job
Oh for fs stop it! This is simple desperation of you trying to excuse the inexcusable. All the actions of Satan - who had once been sentenced to crawl on his belly eating dirt for all his days but now suddenly just walking around free as a bird - were sanctioned by god himself, no matter how you want to spin it. God stood by and watched all that Satan was allowed to do BY GOD himself and at the end god more or less told job to stop whining. And I suppose the commandment of "thou shalt no kill " didn't apply to Satan here either! Exodus 20:13 King James Version.
In the story of Job we do have a god that actually did know the out come. He did know that his most loyal and faithful servant wouldn't let him down and he did know he would remain faithful, but killed these ten children anyway. It was simply far beyond any and all mental torture for the hell of it.
It is said the children were replaced by more children. Well this simply shows how cheap life is to the megalomaniac god , doesn't it.
And you haven't explained why a god would need to prove anything to anyone? A god, it appears that felt he had to prove something ( how great he was) to a literal lowlife belly crawling serpent that had been condemned years before to eat dirt for the rest of its life?
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@K_Michael
Mark 1 6:16, KJV: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."By this definition, only Christians and Mormons would make it into heaven.
So this is Mark contradicting Timothy then? Or is Timothy contradicting Mark? Which one of them is correct ?
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@BrotherDThomas
1Timothty 4:10 “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.”
Brother, it appears that once again you (and Timothy) have, with one single verse, blown the idea that none believers won't be going to heaven , clean out the water.
This is something I have never understood about the emphasis that is put of the reason for Christs death concerning him "dying for our sins" and to save us from the eternal flames. Yet Christians will have it that if we don't to repent "for our sins" or be baptised AND believe in Jesus we won't go to heaven or see god, when we have all been saved and forgiven and our sins paid for with the blood of Jesus the son of god who is also god.
Now, in Jesus' name, hopefully we won't see pseudo-Christians bringing forth their Satanic hermeneutics, contradicting biblical passages to this topic
At post #13 SirAnonymous offered Revelation 20:9-15 as some kind of counter argument. So this then contradicts 1 Timothy 4:10 and shows Timothy obviously hadn't read or even knew about Revelation or didn't know what he was talking about and was making things up as he went, as most Christians do.
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@Tradesecret
Otherwise people like you and me would not have come to it.But it wasn't scripture that brought me to my conclusions and neither was it you.So Mr Genuis,Where did I get the idea from if it was not the Bible?
How would I know? That is what I am asking you to show me- genius. Did you miss the word "me" in the quote above. I was speaking for myself not you- genius.
And you have failed AGAIN to provide the evidence that you so proudly brag that you always do provide.
I am going to assume you missed it. here you go>>#21
Because I take the view that the evidence is there [in the bible] and it is clear.
OK then let us see it. Lets us see what you say is evidence that Jesus was baptised Priest and king by John the baptist. I have highlighted what I believe are two indicators that maybe point to Jesus being a Priest King in my first response to you here #13. But I have not shown anywhere that John baptised/ anointed Jesus a king or priest as you are now suggestion was the reason for his baptism.
So where is you "clear evidence" that the Baptist baptised Jesus a Priest and King?
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@SirAnonymous
So even those infidels that do live an moral upstanding life will not see heaven or god simply because they did not believe. Very tolerant!Moral and upstanding isn't the standard by which God judges us. Perfection is.
Then by your own double standards we can never reach perfection because we were born of sin according to you.
None of us can meet that standard.
Then why bother setting any standards that god knows we cannot reach. This is like the command to Eve not to eat fruit when he knew exactly what the out-come was going to be. Fkn pathetic!
That is why Jesus took our punishment on the cross.
Oh stop it! Jesus went to the cross because - among other things - he got up the noses of the false puppet priests and a puppet king, both put into their lucrative positions by the authority of Rome. He was upsetting the precarious status quo of the time. He was making a claim on the throne that he believed was rightly his. THAT IS WHY HE WENT TO THE CROSS!
However, the gift of salvation can't help you if you reject it. If you don't like that standard, it won't do any good to argue about it with me, because it's not my standard. It's God's.
But were we not all saved by the so called blood sacrifice of god's only son who also happened to be god as well? Do you not see how ridiculousness you sound?
it won't do any good to argue about it with me, because it's not my standard. It's God's.
That is an absolute abysmal cope-out. it is much more honest to simply say ' don't ask me' because you do not know.
What basis do you have for condemning God's justice (or anything else) beyond your own personal preference?
That's simple. "Gods justice " is unjust to anyone with the slightest of morals and who has read about god's justice in practice.. The sad story of Job and the sanctioning BY GOD of the murder of all job's children leaps to mind. Job 1: 18 - 19
Now one for you.
Would you kill my children because I don't have the faith that you have?
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@SirAnonymous
But you need to look up the word - tolerate.I know what it means and I do my best to tolerate others' beliefs.
tolerate
/ˈtɒləreɪt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
- 1.allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) without interference.
And of course all non believers will not see paradise;
John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:16 : “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (emphasis added). Even this verse proclaiming God’s love and desire to save people adds the caveat that they must “believe in Him” to have everlasting life.
So even those infidels that do live an moral upstanding life will not see heaven or god simply because they did not believe. Very tolerant!
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@SirAnonymous
You just painted 84% of the world with the same brush and essentially called them all moral prigs
What I have written, I have written, from my own observations and experience. I will grant you that some religions are more tolerant of the infidel than others. But you need to look up the word - tolerate.
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@Castin
Plus you can't really expect me to just leave it alone when someone says the Dead Sea Scrolls mentioned Jesus, can you?
No. And I was referring to my own comments,ie marriage of a rabbi/Jesus not answering the OP or being on topic, not your own comments..
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@Castin
much less that he married Mary Magdalene.
Isn't one of the requirements of being a rabbi is to be married?
Jesus is called Rabbi in conversation by Apostle Peter in Mark 9:5 and Mark 11:21, and by Judas Iscariot in Mark 14:45 by Nathanael in John 1:49.
And wasn't there a direct instruction from god himself to " go forth and multiply"? And wouldn't this then mean that said rabbi/ Jesus also had children?
But none of this is answering the the question in the OP , is it?
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@Intelligence_06
If I do equally as many things as the theist when we both are working, and I am helping the needy when the theist is praying with seemingly no effect, why does he get to go to heaven and I don't?If Pascal's wager is a sound theory then God is a total jerk. No matter how much good I do to humanity, as long I trust myself to do everything, I go to hell. Isn't this just like Authoritarian Communism? Good things good done, but you criticize me and the punishment is equally as bad as the slacker on the hay.I can do good things and I can help more people on sundays than the average theist because they don't work on sundays. Having the mentality of helping everything is not bad, or is it?
Christians, indeed all believers in a god believe themselves to have the monopoly on morals. Put simply, if one doesn't believe in god and have faith then then they are believed to be incapable of living a life with morals and an upstanding life . Haughty doesn't even cover it, does it.
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@Tradesecret
Because I take the view that the evidence is there and it is clear.
OK then let us see it. Lets us see what you say is evidence that Jesus was baptised Priest and king by John the baptist. I have highlighted what I believe are two indicators that maybe point to Jesus being a Priest King in my first response to you here #13. But I have not shown anywhere that John baptised/ anointed Jesus a king or priest as you are now suggestion was the reason for his baptism.
Otherwise people like you and me would not have come to it.
But it wasn't scripture that brought me to my conclusions and neither was it you.
For any one to come to it is NOT accidental.
Maybe not, but there is not a single piece of solid evidence in the scriptures that Jesus - who is also god according to Christians - was baptised a king or priest. The scriptures make it clear that the reason for baptism is "washing away ones sins" .
I certainly accept that baptism in the main is about repentance from sins.
So what sins had Jesus repented?
John's baptism was nothing compared to Jesus' baptism.
That is irrelevant to this thread . With that said, no one knows where John got his authority to go around baptising and no one knows who baptised John either.
I personally don't think my own confusion is representative of the church as a whole.
Maybe not. But they - that is every christian and priest , like you, also appear confused when asked why did Jesus need baptising if he was sinless? What sins had he committed? and what sins did have to repent?
so whether it had anything to do with washing away sin or not - symbolically, is a further discussion.But then you are going to ignore what the bible actually states concerning the ritual of baptism and why it is performed? I have shown you from your own scriptures what the bible states. Do you accept their explanation for this ritual or not?Not at all. Why would you take such a view? Baptism has more than one purpose.
Who says so,!? You? Or is this you again attempting to rewrite the scripture and then discuss what the scriptures do not actually say?
Sorry, I am not being more clear. Yet this is a serious question I am pursuing and I am not sure yet where it will take me.I am not a know it all.
Then you should have simply admitted that you didn't know.
As I indicated at the beginning of this topic - I agree he is sinless .......
Then why did he need to be baptised? No one seems to know.
This does not however change the meaning for other people.
"The meaning" for Christians is all the same. The bible makes "THE MEANING " clear, it is to "wash away ones sins" You don't know why Jesus was baptised but insist that he was sinless, you are simply trying to make excuses for the obvious contradiction.
You don't have an answer and I accept that.
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@K_Michael
Mark 16:16
Mark 16: 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
What's your point. Jesus is believed to be the son of god and god at the same time and had never committed a single sin according to Christians #102. Mark 16:16 doesn't explain why Jesus needed to be baptised by John the Baptist?
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@K_Michael
God commands that His children be baptized
Does he? Can you show us this command? It is odd that such an important commandment is not listed along with the other commandments brought down by Moses.
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@Tradesecret
It has left me confused.
Well that isn't too hard to do. I have held the belief that Jesus was a priest king and heir to the throne of Jerusalem for well over 40 years. And nothing you have said influenced my belief in any way. Unfortunately there is no clear biblical evidence for my beliefs apart from the royal gifts said to have been presented at his birth and Pilate insisting on what should be written of the head board of the cross at the crucifixion.
Yet, in relation to John the Baptist, he did indicate that his baptism was the remission of sins.
Not just John . Stop being so sly and disingenuous. The bible makes it clear what baptism is all about. Or are you going to deny this:
“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)
“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)
“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)
“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)
So you see. The bible is clear . It is all to do with cleansing of ones sins yet here we have the son of god himself insisting John baptise him. WHY!?
I use the word hesitatingly, because as some will have observed I am not yet convinced that Jesus was not born with original sin.
Yes you sound confused again. You see either he was sinless or he wasn't. Either way it makes a nonsense of the Christian belief that baptism is a ritual of "washing away sins",
It may well have something to do with this - I honestly have not processed that thought yet.
Yes its a bit of a stumper for the church isn't it. I have asked many Christians this simple question and is all I get is crickets.
But I do take the view that it was his ordination primarily -
So do I , but the bible contradicts that view and gives no indication that this was the anointing of a king priest as I believe.
so whether it had anything to do with washing away sin or not - symbolically, is a further discussion.
But then you are going to ignore what the bible actually states concerning the ritual of baptism and why it is performed? I have shown you from your own scriptures what the bible states. Do you accept their explantation for this ritual or not?
Sorry, I am not being more clear. Yet this is a serious question I am pursuing and I am not sure yet where it will take me.
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@secularmerlin
. As a matter of fact if you leave out all the magic stuff the story of Jesus is fairly plausible
It is.
But those bits of "magic stuff" are also explainable. Jesus didn't raise anyone from literal death . It was a simply a raising to another degree in the movement, his movement, i.e. those not in his circle or one of his followers or just simply non believers were simply called "the dead" anyone wanting to be part of Jesus movement were initiated into the circle of the living hence - raised from among the dead. There are plenty of give-away clues in the bible that show this to be the case;
such as ;
"let the dead bury the dead". Luke 9:59-60. If we are to take this literally we know it is an impossibility, so it simply has to mean something else and I believe the explanation that I have given above explains what it means perfectly.
"Water into wine" is also simply another stage of initiation to another degree in the movement as was curing a "leper". Similar to 14th century proverb " making a silk purse out of a sows ear" .
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@Tradesecret
Jesus rising from the dead is not a miracle. It was always going to happen because he had not committed sinThen why did Jesus need to be baptised?Glad to see I inspire you. LOL!
I will always give credit where its due. But get it right - it was the claim not the person.
I say Jesus' baptism was an ordination of him as Priest, Prophet and King.
Me too. So do you agree then that baptism has absolutely nothing to do with "washing away our sins"?
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Jesus rising from the dead is not a miracle. It was always going to happen because he had not committed sin
Then why did Jesus need to be baptised?
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Membership of the Christian church is in decline, no matter how much you want to play it down. It is serious enough situation to have many church leader extremely concerned.I agreed with you.
And numbers elsewhere are not making up the losses in the west including Canada Australia and others ;
Crisis of faith
Every ten years the census spells out the situation in detail: between 2001 and 2011 the number of Christians born in Britain fell by 5.3 million — about 10,000 a week. If that rate of decline continues, the mission of St Augustine to the English, together with that of the Irish saints to the Scots, will come to an end in 2067.
Compare :
Almost a tenth of babies and toddlers in England and Wales are Muslim, census figures show
The percentage of Muslims among the under-fives is almost twice as high as in the general population, according to a breakdown of census figures
Census figures reveal a ‘startling’ shift in Britain’s demographic trend with almost a tenth of babies and toddlers born in England and Wales being Muslim.
The percentage of Muslims among the under-fives is almost twice as high as in the general population. Less than one in 200 over 85s are Muslims – an indication of the extent to which birth rate is changing the UK’s religious demographic.
The Office for National Statistics produced the breakdown of Britain’s religions and age groups. The figures, according to the Times, were extracted from data collected in the 2011 census.
One expert said it was possible that Muslims who worshipped would outnumber practising Christians. “It’s not inconceivable,” said David Voas, Professor of Population Studies at the University of Essex.
You and the Fish , sunshine , has had it's day.
It is the situation that the Muslim faith can be the fastest growing group in the world,
IS! You are ignoring the evidence. The only places that the dangerous barbaric ideology of Islam is not on the increase are in countries that won't allow it to grow. Unlike every country in the west where is has been supported and promoted as " the religion of peace" by western governments and western world leaders who I consider traitors to be their own people.
yet still be reducing.
As much as I would sincerely like to believe that I have seen no evidence for members of Islam - Muslims- being in decline.
Every child born Muslim
Which will then require more mosques to add to the already 1600 that are already here in the UK and most of those built only in the last 25 years years. While Christian churches fall empty and become dilapidated daily or are sold off or simply abandoned or burned down .
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@Tradesecret
BrotherDThomas, wrote: , Trandesecret, Seriously, have you ever thought about going into “Christian Stand-up Comedy” relative to your spin doctoring and the rewriting of the Christian Bible and religion? All you would have to do is act naturally with your assumed knowledge about the Bible and the earthly entities outside of the Bible!And just pray that no one questions him on his substance or slaps him with a few factsWhatever. I have conducted trials in Asia, Australia and USA - people keep like paying me. I must be really shoddy.
And yet you spin all kinds of claptrap and gobbledegook on the subject of your own religion. Do you tell lies on your clients behalf too.
"One lawyer with one briefcase can steal more and do more damage than a hundred men with guns".
And you still have not addressed the Brothers questions. You really are laughable.
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@Tradesecret
Christianity is still in its teenage years,
That is more opinion and wishful thinking than fact.
so any reduction in numbers today is not to be unexpected.
Membership of the Christian church is in decline, no matter how much you want to play it down. It is serious enough situation to have many church leader extremely concerned.
Yet, I also pointed out that Islam is too reducing in numbers.
Not according to the evidence. But I would like to believe that you were correct. Every child born to Muslim parents is Muslim at birth. You can deny that as much as you want, the same cannot be said for Christianity.
Marvelous how you keep missing this from the respected research center Pew.
Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group.
"In the next half century or so, Christianity’s long reign as the world’s largest religion may come to an end, according to a just-released report that builds on Pew Research Center’s original population growth projections for religious groups. Indeed, Muslims will grow more than twice as fast as the overall world population between 2015 and 2060 and, in the second half of this century, will likely surpass Christians as the world’s largest religious group......" https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/06/why-muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/
" there are no American soldiers in Baghdad " Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf aka Comical Ali,Iraqi Information minister.
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@Tradesecret
I never denied Christianity was reducing in numbers in the West. I deny it is the fact for the rest of the word
Yes and? What's you point?
This thread is about Christianity not being # 1 for much too long.
Comical Ali 1-->@ethang5 wrote: ; Jesus told us that the number of Christians would dwindle to almost nothing before He returned.Of course , he didn't have a biblical verse to support this claim after many requests to do so. But do you notice anything in particularly contradictory about his lying quote?I confess I don't see the contradiction here.
No surprises there then.
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@Tradesecret
There are three pages of detailed evidence herein this thread and from reliable sources including from Christian church leaders themselves, comical Ali 2. .
Their fear concerning the rapid decline in numbers in the Christian church seems very genuine to me, or will you will call them liars, like Comical Ali 1? You too will no doubt go into total denial mode as you always do. Christening are down by thousands in the west. Christian churches are being sold off or left to crumble by the thousand and are being burned to the ground.
Church congregations are down by the thousands. All well documented and recorded and easily confirmed with a click of a mouse.
Thank god for Noah! We may never had mice to click.
I don't care what you accept or don't accept as evidence. That of course is entirely up to the reader and deniers like your self . I personally have absolutely no reason to disbelieve what these Christian church leaders have to say about the decline of the Christian church.
When Comical Ali 1 found the evidence in this thread so overwhelming he spun this lie:
Comical Ali 1-->@ethang5 wrote: ; Jesus told us that the number of Christians would dwindle to almost nothing before He returned.
Of course , he didn't have a biblical verse to support this claim after many requests to do so. But do you notice anything in particularly contradictory about his lying quote?
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@BrotherDThomas
Can you see him in a trial setting in using the same comical skewed logic that he uses for Christianity to supposedly support why he is at trial in the first place!
The Scopes Monkey Trial, leaps to mind.
BrotherDThomas, wrote: , Trandesecret, Seriously, have you ever thought about going into “Christian Stand-up Comedy” relative to your spin doctoring and the rewriting of the Christian Bible and religion? All you would have to do is act naturally with your assumed knowledge about the Bible and the earthly entities outside of the Bible!
And just pray that no one questions him on his substance or slaps him with a few facts
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@Tradesecret
I did answer your questions.
You're a liar!
Where is your evidence that god created the universe and all that is in it (including sin) in only six days as the bible, your bible, claims.
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@Tradesecret
I will start to use evidence when you do
Then you have already ignored the evidence from Pew research, and all the other evidence in this thread. And you have no evidence AGAIN!! for you outrageous claims. Nothing new there then.
You have simply joined this thread to bait another member because you are losing a grip on other threads through lack of evidence for claims there too. My evidence is clear and my claims are supported throughout this thread. It is only two and a half pages long, try reading it. But I am sure these facts will be far too disturbing for you as it is that other Comical Ali in denial - ethang 5
"One country, two religions and three very telling pictures: The empty pews at churches just yards from an overcrowded mosque".
- Two photos show Sunday morning services in churches in East London
- The third shows worshippers gathered for Friday midday prayers outside a nearby mosque
- The difference in numbers could hardly be more dramatic.
Europe’s Growing Muslim Population. The baseline for all three scenarios is the Muslim population in Europe (defined here as the 28 countries presently in the European Union, plus Norway and Switzerland) as of mid-2016, estimated at 25.8 million (4.9% of the overall population) – up from 19.5 million (3.8%) in 2010.Even if all migration into Europe were to immediately and permanently stop – a “zero migration” scenario – the Muslim population of Europe still would be expected to rise from the current level of 4.9% to 7.4% by the year 2050. This is because Muslims are younger (by 13 years, on average) and have higher fertility (one child more per woman, on average) than other Europeans, mirroring a global pattern.
Your church is falling sinshine. Get used to it. They will have you mumbling into a carpet three times a day before too long
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@Tradesecret
So really I have answered all of your questions .
No you haven't. And this is where you, as most Christians do, resort to blatantly telling lies. This is why I am of the opinion that religious faith has to be a mental illness.
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@Tradesecret
It will longer at number one that atheism will ever be. In fact atheism will never be number one.
One example:
1The share of Americans who identify as atheists has increased modestly but significantly in the past decade. Pew Research Center telephone surveys conducted in 2018 and 2019 show that 4% of American adults say they are atheists when asked about their religious identity, up from 2% in 2009. An additional 5% of Americans call themselves agnostics, up from 3% a decade ago.
Christianity is the largest religion in the world and has been for a long time.
for now and not much longer. read this thread.
Is Islam really increasing as fast as it alleged?
Europe’s Growing Muslim Population. The baseline for all three scenarios is the Muslim population in Europe (defined here as the 28 countries presently in the European Union, plus Norway and Switzerland) as of mid-2016, estimated at 25.8 million (4.9% of the overall population) – up from 19.5 million (3.8%) in 2010.Even if all migration into Europe were to immediately and permanently stop – a “zero migration” scenario – the Muslim population of Europe still would be expected to rise from the current level of 4.9% to 7.4% by the year 2050. This is because Muslims are younger (by 13 years, on average) and have higher fertility (one child more per woman, on average) than other Europeans, mirroring a global pattern.
In Europe - it [Islam] is facing enormous pressures.
And so it should. Europeans are fighting a losing battle with Western governments supporting and vouching for Islam at every turn. Stop playing ignorant.
"One country, two religions and three very telling pictures: The empty pews at churches just yards from an overcrowded mosque".
- Two photos show Sunday morning services in churches in East London
- The third shows worshippers gathered for Friday midday prayers outside a nearby mosque
- The difference in numbers could hardly be more dramatic.
A look at the average number of children in Europe by Muslims has dropped significantly.
Lets see your evidence for that claim.
Why? Secular education.
Lets us see you evidence for that claim
In fact all over the world - numbers in population are dropping significantly.
No supporting evidence. And on and on and on you go,, making assumptions and claims without evidence. Try reading this thread and the knots ethang5 - the comical Ali of the western world tied himself up in.
A Muslims woman's day out in London's Oxford Street
A day in the park for Muslim men
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@SirAnonymous
Again. This is not evidence as much as you want it to be.Saying it doesn't make it so.
I agree. But you say quite a lot that depends on evidence. Evidence that you repeatedly fail to provide.
Can you refute my argument?
I have asked you to prove YOUR claim that god condemned all babies to death for sin. Have you forgotten your own statement and your very dodgy maths? And have you forgotten my question in reply to your dodgy maths? #31 Stephen "Where in the OT is it that god condemns all babies to death for sin."
You have simply provided anything but that evidence to prove it. You spoke about what Romans & Peter of the New Testament says. You mentioned psalms, You spoke about ground being "cursed". And you have mentioned David and his out-pourings, but not a single verse where we have god lord Jehovah - Yahweh - Jesus speaking himself and saying _
` I have condemned all babies to death for sin '.
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find these questions.
->@Tradesecret wrote The bible is God's word.
I asked you to _ Prove it. You avoided the question and certainly provided no evidence for your claim.
I am obviously too dumb to find them.
Yes I know you are.
And you still haven't come up with the evidence that your lord god almighty created the whole universe and everything in it in only six days.->@Tradesecret wrote I assume you mean 24 hours days?
What you "assume" is not an answer to the question, your bible states clearly that he created everything ( including sin) in six days. But here you are on the threshold of rewriting the scripture.
Then you avoided these question from n8nrgmi who asked a question and you reply #3 . You don't stop there either do you? No you then fire a sally of questions without even attempting to address his very genuine question here #5
This is not to mention the questions from the Brother here:
1. How did Noah fit 1.2 million species upon the 510 foot long, 75 foot wide, and 45 foot high Ark (Genesis 6:15)?2. Since Jesus created DINOSAURS, how were those fitted upon the Ark as well in 8 pairs of them?3. You mentioned water tanks for the fish, then how many gallons of water do you think it took for 8 pairs of Blue Whales that are 100 feet in length within said tanks?4. How did Noah and family keep the known 10,000 species of birds x 8 pairs, which equals 80,000 birds, from flyings away from the Ark?5. There are 33,600 known species of fish x 8 pairs = 268,800 fish, how were they kept alive without eating each other in the water tanks that you mentioned?6. How did Noah keep 900,000 known species of insects from being trampled by the 19.2 million species of animals upon the Ark?7. Noah's Ark was upon the waters for 371 days (Genesis 8:14-15), where did the food come from to feed 19.2 million of animal species, 80,000 birds, 268,800 fish, 900,000 insects, and most importantly, 8 pairs of each of the dinosaurs?
So you have a bit of a log jam of your own when it comes to you failing to answering questions.
Now, off you go.
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@SirAnonymous
Again. This is not evidence as much as you want it to be.
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@Tradesecret
So that is how it going to be?
I have asked you many questions of late and you simply have ignored them.
You just ask questions and never answer them.
I haven't said I won't answer them have I. I find it odd that you are complaining about who should answer what & when , when is all you ever do is answer to perfectly good, legitimate and genuine question with questions of your own. Such as here> n8nrgmi asked a question and you reply #3 Tradesecret. You don't stop there either do you? No you then fire a sally of questions without even attempting to address his very genuine question here #5 Tradesecret
Well you are the one who made the claim, not me.
And you have claimed contrary.
I think you just make stuff up and then when asked to prove it, you realise you cannot prove it.
You can think what you like but it is a well known and accepted fact and not hard to research from where the captive Jews got their early stories from.
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Oh yes they did and on many occasions and right from the off. You just cannot accept it.So prove it this time. Don't just make false assertions.
It is up to you to support your own claim that the the biblical flood is original.... once you explained the away the questions that the Brother has Posed you;
Added1. How did Noah fit 1.2 million species upon the 510 foot long, 75 foot wide, and 45 foot high Ark (Genesis 6:15)?2. Since Jesus created DINOSAURS, how were those fitted upon the Ark as well in 8 pairs of them?3. You mentioned water tanks for the fish, then how many gallons of water do you think it took for 8 pairs of Blue Whales that are 100 feet in length within said tanks?4. How did Noah and family keep the known 10,000 species of birds x 8 pairs, which equals 80,000 birds, from flyings away from the Ark?5. There are 33,600 known species of fish x 8 pairs = 268,800 fish, how were they kept alive without eating each other in the water tanks that you mentioned?6. How did Noah keep 900,000 known species of insects from being trampled by the 19.2 million species of animals upon the Ark?7. Noah's Ark was upon the waters for 371 days (Genesis 8:14-15), where did the food come from to feed 19.2 million of animal species, 80,000 birds, 268,800 fish, 900,000 insects, and most importantly, 8 pairs of each of the dinosaurs?
Off you go.
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@SirAnonymous
OK and how in your mind does this cursing of the ground show god condemning all children to death for sin.It doesn't. In fact, the curse on the ground is totally irrelevant here.
No it doesn't does it. But it hasn't stopped you repeating it and presenting it as some kind of evidence that supports your original claim that god /Jesus condemned all children to death for sin. Like I have said, you are just grasping for a answer and filibustering for the most part.
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@BrotherDThomas
Barring the historical FACT that Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, didn't have a mind of His own regarding a Flood scenario, do you think that the Sumerians took into account what my post #70 above represents in the many specie of animals, fish, birds, and insects, that somehow reappeared after their flood?
In short Brother the answer is no. And neither has Tradesecret and his cohorts. The belief in the possibility of gathering just all of the land species of the whole earth on one boat 510 foot long, 75 foot wide, and 45 foot high is simply stupid! Not to mention the different types of food and fresh water needed for all species for a 5 month journey of floating around. This is the kind of stupidity that even children in the 21st century question and laugh at. My granddaughter - 6 years old - asked about the koala and emus and kangaroos? Not a Christian yet has been able to answer that one.
But then the Sumerian account appears to be a more scientific account of how this was achieved. They also tell us it wasn't a world wide flood. They also tell of what caused this flood. And it wasn't the hand of god Yahweh/ Jesus.
The creation epic is also a rip off of the Sumerian creation story too including serpents and 'knowledge'.
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@Tradesecret
The Sumerian epic and the Genesis flood are not similar and the Jews did not borrow from anyone for this story.
Oh yes they did and on many occasions and right from the off. You just cannot accept it.
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@SirAnonymous
Yes I read it. It appears that god cannot make up his mind. Either the ground was cursed since Adam and still is, yet since Noah the ground is no more cursed since he smelled meat cooking. Which one is it.The first one.
OK and how in your mind does this cursing of the ground show god condemning all children to death for sin.
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@linate
just because the bible says so, and God can do anything?
The story of the flood is a Sumerian epic wrote about tens of thousands of years before the bible ever came into existence. It is simply another story lifted from the Sumerians by the `Jews in captivity ` and adopted as their own as with the creation epic.
Ziusudra/ Noah
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@n8nrgmi
->@Tradesecret wrote : What is unconditional love? [3] What is love? Is love confined only to positive things? Is it a process? Is it an outcome? For example, when I discipline my children, they don't perceive it as love. Yet if I chose not to discipline them, then I have not displayed love. Similarly, God loved the world, so he sent his son to be killed. Is that love for the world or not? And was it love towards his own son or not? #5
Typical of the apologist to pose five billion questions of his own as if this some how addresses the question of the op.
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@Tradesecret
What is love? Is love confined only to positive things? Is it a process? Is it an outcome? For example, when I discipline my children, they don't perceive it as love. Yet if I chose not to discipline them, then I have not displayed love. Similarly, God loved the world, so he sent his son to be killed. Is that love for the world or not? And was it love towards his own son or not?
Typical, of the apologist to pose five billion questions of his own as if this somehow addresses the question of the op.
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@n8nrgmi
is idea of unconditional love compatible with the God of the old testament?
No. And one only has to read it - the OT - to understand why. Strange isn't it, that we humans for the better majority do love our children unconditionally and can forgive them for almost anything? Yet, when we come to " our father in heaven " the self confessed jealous god of war there is hardly any compromise. .
And this is where you will notice the apologists steer clear of the point that according their own dogma, Jesus is the god from the beginning and always has been i.e. the god of the Old Testament.
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@SirAnonymous
Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. Did you read that part?
Yes I read it. It appears that god cannot make up his mind. Either the ground was cursed since Adam and still is, yet since Noah the ground is no more cursed since he smelled meat cooking. Which one is it.
Genesis 8: 20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
It is interesting that you chose the word "children" when most bibles including the KJV use the word - youth - and not child or infant or baby.
But either way and what ever the exact word used, this simply does not prove your claim that God himself condemned all children to death for sin. You seem to be missing what it is that god is cursing and why he is cursing it. Like I have said here #38 learn to read your bible.
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