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Ibn Warraq, Islamic scholar and a leading figure in Qur’anic criticism, was a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry.Women are inferior under Islamic law; their testimony in a court of law is worth half that of a man; their movement is strictly restricted; they cannot marry a non-Muslim.Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".Similar bronze-age laws exist in the "Old Testament".
With a MASSIVE difference you absolute buffoon. Islam STILL practices all the above and worse. Islam is still ancient Islam.
There have been massive reforms in Judaism and Christianity and all for the better of mankind (though some may disagree). On the other hand ; ISLAM is STILL the BARBARIC ideology as it was when it was first created by man believing he had a vision over 1400 years ago.
Jews do not even recognise the Old Testament as ' there's' you fool and they never have. And Christianity preaches love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek. You will not find a single quote from the Christ of the New Testament instructing his followers to go out into the world and rape, maim and murder anyone who doesn't believe in him or who is not Christian, as does the ancient barbaric god of the Quran.
I have heard all of these fkn excuses from many apologist for islam like you and prosser, and they simply do not stand up when challenged.
I see you ignored much of that link just as I knew you would. All apologist do this when they have to face facts.
“The Democratic system that is predominant in the world is not a suitable system for the peoples of our region. … The system of free elections is not suitable to our country.” King Fahd of Saudi Arabia. https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/is-islam-compatible-with-democracy-and-human-rights/
At least King Fahd has had the honesty to admit the incompatibility of Islam and Democracy.
"Quite clearly under Islam, one does not have the right to change one’s religion, if one is born into a Muslim family. Applying double standards, Muslims are quite happy to accept converts to their religion, but a Muslim may not convert to another religion; this would be apostasy, which is punishable by death. Here is how the great commentator Baydawi (c.1291) sees the matter:“Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever you find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard.” https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/is-islam-compatible-with-democracy-and-human-rights/
You asked for a logical support for my claim. You got it from a muslim academic scholar and a Muslim King: you don't like it. This is the typical reaction of someone having the FACTS of the matter shoved up their drainpipe. Now go away. Unless you would like some more facts concerning the incompatibility of Islam with west.
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@keithprosser
But unless Allah is real and has plans for us there can be no such thing as a correct interpretation.
"US!!!? Muslims you mean. And it is all Islam, they share a book, the same fkn book, The same book is read by all muslims. Or are you telling me there are other "types" and "forms" of the Quran?
they all claim their interpretation is the true one!
All who?
You are so fkn fixated on "interpretation" so interpret this verse for me:
It is alleged - with some credibility - that the rise of fundamentalist intrerpretations of Islam is at least partly due to Saudi Arabia using its great oil wealth to export 'wahaabist' Islam, for instance by building and funding mosques, schools and madrasas worldwide. Or is that sectarian propaganda? I can't be sure.
" wahaabist Islam" is still Islam They (wahaabists) are not a different sect of Islam as much as the western governments,leaders, media and now you like to push it. Yes, Saudi Arabia is funding all the above as is Iran funding terrorism, and our western governments are not doing anything about it, are they. They appear to be encouraging it and we, the indigenous people, are called "islamophobic" and racist for airing our concerns that they keep importing more people from Islamic countries disguised are 'asylum seekers' and 'refugees' who have no intention of integrating with the "dirty animal pagan unbelieving kuffar".
There are a few other factors that must be taken seriously into consideration.
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk ( a secularist) was despised and hated by Muslims when he tried 'reforms' when the Islamic State/caliphate ended in 1924 up until that time the Islamic Caliphate had existed for over 1400 years and in the time of its existence they had butchered more that 270 million people.
People thought the Islamic State was now a thing of the past, never to return, but in truth it had never gone away; it was there bubbling below the surface, literally. The one factor you have already mentioned, it was the discovery of oil that enabled muslims to resurrect the Islamic State. Discovered by western technology and the same helped them get it out of the ground, refine it and stupidly allowed them to nationalise it. Saudi Arabians went from living in tents and mud huts to living in palaces almost over night. Yes this gift of oil was from Allah because they had been faithful following the quran to the letter as taught by the perfect prophet muhammad and living in his way.
Another factor is that Sayyid Ruhollah Mūsavi Khomeini, known in the West as Ayatollah Khomeini, coming to power in 1979. Now they had the money and the spiritual covering to wage Islamic jihad once more.
Another is Osama bin Laden. He and the mujahideen had defeated a super power and this too was a victory handed to them by Allah for remaining faithful to the words of the quran and walking in the way of the perfect prophet Muhammad and now they believed they were ready to take on the " Great Satan" itself, the USA. Fortunately , what the Soviets couldn't do in ten years, thankfully the Americans did in just under ten weeks.
that is to encourage Muslims to reject conservative forms of Islam and adopt more progressive forms.
"forms" and "types" again
what like letting a woman drive car ... with the permission of and escorted by, a father, brother, uncle or male cousin?
Remember Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, he who was hated and despised by muslims? Who gave women the rights to vote, he gave women a right to education, a right work, a right to choose her own husband. He forbid women from wearing the hijab and burqa and men from wearing a beard. It seems he was on the right track but now it all seems to be in reverse under Erdogan.
You are living in denial prosser.
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@3RU7AL
ISLAM you [ad hominem]! ISLAM is incompatible with the west...Please demonstrate logical support for this claim.
Start here>>
Ibn Warraq, Islamic scholar and a leading figure in Qur’anic criticism, was a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry.
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@3RU7AL
Islam is not monolithic,
Says who? you? Do not kid yourself. Muslims believe the quran is the true unalterable and last word of Allah and cannot be altered because it is "perfect". Now go look at the definition of monolithic, you clown
What about laws making it illegal to open a business on Sundays?What about?What about?What about?
What about them. We are talking Islamic laws being practiced in the west and foisted on the western world. Playing whataboutery is not going to excuse it.
Your statement seemed to be suggesting that anyone who subscribed to Muslim beliefs is basically a terrorist (incompatible with "the west").
Oh stop it FFS! And I think you should have said - subscribe to ISLAMIC beliefs.
Please (EITHER) modify your original claim (OR) compellingly explain how ALL of these individuals are "incompatible with the west".
ISLAM you absolute penis! ISLAM is incompatible with the west, so much so that the other buffoon apologist prosser believes "ISLAM"needs to be treated with "tough love" while adding that "ISLAM also its teeth pulling". BUT HE DOESN'T EVEY SAY WHY!!!!!
Some individual people who subscribe to some forms of Islam are FASCIST.
OH FFS! stop trying to play down the absolute submission that ISLAM demands with death penalties for those who do not adhere to the "perfect word" of allah and follow in the footsteps of the "perfect prophet".. "Some individuals" my arse. MILLIONS of the 1.5BILLION is more closer to the number. And you are sounding just like the other apologist prosser who loves talking about and "types and "forms"of ISLAM but tries to avoid the fact that they -whatever they are- are all fkn ISLAM. You sound like that other clown who is forever trying to defend the indefensible.
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s Muhammad Ali "incompatible" with the West?Is Dr. Oz "incompatible" with the West?Is Dave Chappelle "incompatible" with the West?Is Casey Kasem "incompatible" with the West?What about Cat Stevens, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, Ellen Burstyn, Mos Def, Omar Epps?
ISLAM you buffoon ISLAM is incompatible with the west. And if you are going to use that fkn idiot Cat Steven - Yusuf Islam as your yard stick your on a fk road to nowhere. The twat, for reasons known only to himself has now dropped the Islam from his stupid adopted name. I wonder why.
Tell me, WHAT if I do not "believe in TOLERANCE, inalienable HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF SPEECH"?Look, I avoid using charged language whenever possible, but you're making it pretty difficult here.The following is a conditional statement.(IFF) someone advocates intolerance and conditional human rights and censorship (THEN) that person is a FASCIST.
I see, So ISLAM is fascist. Well how about that, you wouldn't have fkn thought it would you. Which in turn means MILLIONS of the 1.5 BILLION muslims who follow this fascist dictatorial ideology are totalitarians too. And the "conditional statement" would that be covered by your "special pleading" link?
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@3RU7AL
Christians I've run across in my lifetime believe that the ideal model for their laws is from a "backward ancient law system"
Without trying to impose them on a modern western society. Without making it illegal to criticize and offend. Without inventing words that mean one could end up in prison such as the left wing libtard favourite of the islam apologist "islamophobia".. This religious board is of full of offence, bigotry and criticism of Christians and Christianity and no one seems to give two fks, mention Islam and the shiite hits the fan.
Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.And still are but this is a different beast altogether no matter how you want to paint it. It is not compatible and it is not peaceful no matter how many times our own western leaders try to tell us it is.How is this a special
Now who is missing the point. As much as you like to play down this menace as mere "tribalism" it is far more than that, It is a clash of cultures and ideologies.
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.
Tell me, WHAT if I do not "believe in religious TOLERANCE, inalienable HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF SPEECH"?
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I think the correct attitude to Islam is 'tough love'! I think the Muslim community can have sharia courts, but on the model of the Jewish Beth Din. The wearing of hijab and burqa should be neither enforced by self-appointed muslim 'religious police' by nor banned by secular law. Liberal secularism will win because it is a bettersystem than religious conservatism. The hard part is to remain liberal and secular and not seccumb to illiberal sectarian intolerance.
What you "think" and what is actaully happening are world's/cultures apart.
This is not simple tribalism. This is a clash of cultures whether you want to face that or not or whether you even see it that way or not. Islam has emigrated here to the west. It had brought with it its own culture and its own laws and it has no intention of integrating with western society.. The quran instructs them not to.
You haven't explained what it means by taking a "tough love" attitude to islam just like you have never explained what you mean by " islam needs its teeth pulling"?
wearing of hijab and burqa should be neither enforced by self-appointed muslim 'religious police'
How do you believe we go about telling a muslim father that his daughter will be allowed to wear miniskirt whether he likes it or not and whether it is against his religion of culture or not?
Liberal secularism will win because it is a better system than religious conservatism.
Not in the eyes of islam. Something you keep totally ignoring.
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@Snoopy
I don't intend to convey that there aren't real issues brought by the mass migration, but putting kids through some LGBT equality program sounds like indoctrination.
It is and I happen to agree with you and the muslim parents protesting. My point was and still is, the hypocrisy of the left wing libtards such as prossser. If these were Christian parents protesting, there would be every homosexual in the land ( and prosser) turning out to confront these parents and supporting the teachers. And there would be accusations of them being "homophobic" and spitting and in their faces and worse. And I don't doubt for one minute that many of the Christian parents would be arrested charged and imprisoned or fined for "hate crime", which has happened to christians on a few occasions now. And the clear point that these muslim parents have made is that one cannot be a muslim and homosexual, so it is their religious beliefs they are pushing here.
When it comes to explicit religious exemptions I don't think asking for halal meat and such is evidence of aggressive political endeavor.
They are not asking though are they. They are demanding and forcing their strict religious practice onto others. Just like they are demanding that (in this instance rightly so) these schools abolish these lessons that go against their religion. This would be the 'tolerance' 3RU7AL and the prossers are alway spouting about.
And while we are on hypocrisy and halal meat. Muslims already have permission via their religious exemption to eat halal as do those who eat Kosher. No one has ever stopped them, So where are the fkn animal rights activists. They are quick to stamp their feet and protest fox hunting and pheasant shoots, but not this type slaughter of animals.
Keeping in mind that for anyone else it is illegal to slaughter animals that have not been stunned, there are more supermarkets now stocking halal meat than ever yet the population of muslims in the the UK is said to be only around 4%-5%. You do the maths.
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Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.
And still are but this is a different beast altogether no matter how you want to paint it. It is not compatible and it is not peaceful no matter how many times our own western leaders try to tell us it is.
Catholics and Protestants have a rich history of killing each other.
They do have a history you should note the word "history". For the best part those conflict are long gone, although, in Scotland at the football matches you will now and again have Celtic and Rangers fight it out on the terraces.
There are thousands of Christian denominations, all with different rule books.
And they all live under one law. They do not demand that a backward ancient law system takes precedence over the laws of the adopted land.
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.
Listen to yourself. ISLAM is intolerant to ALL the above. This is why ISLAM is INCOMPATIBLE with the West. YET here we have bellend apologist like yourself and prosser AND our own Western leaders trying to square a circle by attempting with every fiber of your existence to make the incompatible- compatible. We are having new words invented, words redefined and new laws added to our society that is and will further, stop the "freedom of speech" and do away with the "inalienable human rights" that you appear to value.
Tell me, WHAT if I do not "believe in TOLERANCE, inalienable HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF SPEECH"?
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@keithprosser
I'm think it likely that luke wanted to to write that a) Jesus was virgin born and b) a descendant of David, through the traitional male line. Luke couldn't think of way to recocile the two so simply didn't bother, relying on the absence of much critical analysis in those days!
As I have said on another thread:
One has to ask, why the silence from Mark and John concerning the "virgin birth"? The answer is simple; there wasn’t one in the sense that we today understand the word virgin. Not only did they not know about it, but they didn’t have a clue about the childhood of the saviour that didn't save himself never mind his people.either! This in turn must give rise to the question of why did Matthew and Luke, whose gospels are (in a large part) said to be borrowed from Mark, feel the need to mention a virgin birth? And we have to keep in mind that Mark is believed to have been the first of the gospels yet he has absolutely nothing to say about the virgin birth of Christ.
It cannot be denied that there are clearly two different genealogical sources coming from both these gospels Matthew and Luke; at Matthew 1:2-17 King James Version and Luke 3:23-38.KJV
But Luke had this to add:
“For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us. Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word. It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus.”. Luke 1:1-3 KJV.
Simply put, Luke is telling us above that these people (his sources) knew and perfectly understood what they were talking about and it was the truth that they were conveying to us (and Luke) because his sources had witnessed it all. And that it was ‘good enough for him’ so it should be good enough for us. Luke obviously couldn’t have known what Matthew had written in his genealogical list. So in layman's terms it meant 'accept it or kindly go away'.
It is also interesting that Eusebius said this in his History of the Church. "each believer has been only too eager to dilate at length on these passages”when referring to the bloodline lists of Matthew 1:2-17 and and Luke 3:23-38.
“to dilate”? One can only imagine translates as ‘who do you think you are looking at these genealogies with your eyes wide open’. Or ‘don’t allow your eyes to become too dilated, you may see the contradiction and know the truth’. It does beg the question as to why Matthew and Luke even took the time to add these genealogical lists to their gospels because they should instantly throw doubt (for the Christian) as to the divinity of Jesus and his very existence and are therefore pointless because we cannot after all, forget that Mary, Jesus’ mother was a virgin, wasn’t she? What is more, we have the two evangelists, Matthew and Luke, both showing us that Joseph is the direct descendant of King David. And this is not to mention that they don’t even agree as to whom Joseph’s father of was:
“And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary”. Matthew 1:17.KJV
Luke 3:23; “Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, the son of Heli”.KJV
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@3RU7AL
You're the one quoting the (very ancient and very Muslim) Quran.
As I have said, islam and muslims would obviously feature in this thread. I quoted the quran in response to something said by someone else. If you cannot keep up you should keep off the thread.
The behavior you are so afraid of is NORMAL.
At least you appear to believe it is actually happening unlike prosser who denies it completely. Oh, and let me add, the two nationalities you mentioned above Italian & Irish were of Christian decent weren't they? Did they emigrate to America and demand that those already living there adopt something like Shaliah Law. Did the Chinese who built miles of railway in the USA demand that their own religion and laws of China usurp the existing laws and religion of America. You are talking about a brand new nation that isn't even a quarter of a century old where the USA is concerned and that happened to be populated already by Christians, you clown.
Your reasoning (boneheaded excuses) are absolute bollocks. Islam has no place in western society it is not compatible with western society as many scholars, including islamic scholars, attest to.
It's called "democracy".
Islam does not do "democracy" or liberalism. It's funny though that these people come to the land of the infidel and pagan and the "dirty animal kuffar" seeking "refuge and asylum" but no sooner do they grow in numbers then they start demanding another way of living, their way of living and start to impose it on the indigenous population.
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@RoderickSpode
Issues like these is what makes Bible study fascinating.
I find the subject of religion absolutely fascinating. But I treat it as historical rather than 'religious'.
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In Matthew, an angel speaks to Joseph:Mt 1:20 “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit."It seems clear enough that the Holy Spirit had the role of father to Mary's child.
Then who was "the holy spirit"?
The Talmud’s Mishna describes Jesus as “a bastard son of an adulteress” describing Jesus as “ben Pantera” (son of-Pantera) a corruption of the Greek word/name parthenos. Pantera was said to be a Roman archer from Sidon in Phoenicia but had served in Syria.
“concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the “seed” of David according to the flesh”. Romans 1:3;
If we have to read this as literal then this would mean that the so called holy spirit was a person of the line of David ; A royal, as the genealogies of both Matthew and Luke state.
“Now Jesus himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph”. Luke 3:23.KJV
The son of Joseph? Not the son of God? Luke is not only explicit in what he says; he is adamant about what he says and is sure of his sources:
“For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us. Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word. It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus.”. Luke 1:1-3 KJV.
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@3RU7AL
Let's try to remember, if we're dredging up ancient history,
You need to read the thread and its title. While it maybe a case that Islam and or muslims are mentioned in this thread, the thread started by prosser is all to do with" No go areas in the UK".
So if you want to start a thread on muslim or christian or jewish atrocities committed in ancient times, fkn start a thread about it and stop disrupting this one.
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@keithprosser
So as usual, all bluster and nothing to offer on the "forms" and "types" of Islam you keep spouting about. That will be because there is only Islam and nothing else when looked at from the Muslims stand point and you attempting to make out that there are other "types" and "forms" of islam is just you trying to play down the barbarity of this Islamic ideology by pretending muslims such as those in the video do not exist and are not "real muslims". That is typical left wing platforming and apologising for Islam.
You crowed earlier that the Schools hadn't "caved in " to the demands of the muslim parents. Do you still stand by that premature statement or are you going to deny that one of the schools has now dropped the No Outsiders program altogether and one has "updated" whatever that means- their LGBT lessons and "met the parents half way"? With which they are still not satisfied.
But none of that would happen if people were not attracted to conservative Islam
People? You mean the hundreds of thousands if not millions of muslims that are attracted by verses such as these?
Quran 51 - "You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people".
Quran 8:12 - "I Will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
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@keithprosser
- after all, not answering takes no effort at all!
And it takes almost nothing to copy & paste the question that you are afraid to answer, because you know it can only lead to one single conclusion; that the muslims in the video are NOT "moderates" at all are they,yet they say they are, don't they. But you were never going to admit that because you live in total denial and are pretending that Islam is not a problem or even admit that Islam in not compatible with western culture or society.
Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homsexual acts? Yes or NO
The issue is not whether they are 'moderate'
As I have said, you are afraid to answer. And it was a question. I didn't ask you to tell me what the actual issue was.
My target is a situation where -this is only an example - a woman can walk down any street anywhere in Britain wearing a burqa or a mini-skirt and nobody minds.
That will be you denying the reality of "the issue" which is the entire platform of the left liberal establishment.
You,Stephen, don't accept that Islam can be anything but homophoic and misogynistic,
That's correct. And how do I know this? because muslims and the fkn Quran SAYS SO!!!!! Ask a muslim, you are likely to get this answer:
"Human beings did not write the Qur’an, and we cannot change it".
but I think religions depend entirely on interpretation and there are geo-political reasons why it is backward-looking (not progressive) forms of Islam that have gained traction over the last few decades,
See, again you mention types and now "forms" of Islam. Start a thread on "progressive forms of Islam" that you keep banging on about. lets see what they are.
why it is backward-looking (not progressive) forms of Islam that have gained traction over the last few decades,
It has gained traction because of muslims immigrating to foreign lands and setting up "communities " of their own. They elect other muslims to represent them. They gain positions in high office in their adopted country and they out breed the indigenous population. That is why it has "gained traction" and anyone Except an leftwing fawning libtard apologist such as yourself can see it!
we are talking compromise, not appeasement or capitualtion by either side.
There will be no compromise with islam because Islam cannot be anything but Islam. And we are already seeing appeasement of, and capitulation to, Islam by the governments of western countries.
Those muslims protesting at those schools have made it clear, they don't want "compromise" they want those lessons " totally gone and abolished" this is after the school says it has now "restructured" the lessons and "met the parents halfway"
Primary school which has had parents protest outside will have updated LGBT lessons in September
The UK is going to be multi-ethnic and multi-faith forever - we better get used to it!
It is already both of those you buffoon. But don't count on it to remain that way. Islam doesn't tolerate other religions and it doesn't tolerate non muslims and you had better "get used" to that fact as much as you want to deny it.
Quran 51 - "You, whohave believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – thenindeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people".
Quran 8:12 - "Iwill cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike offtheir heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
You see prosser, not being a muslim is to be "an enemy of Allah"
Sahihal-Bukhari Book 53 Hadith 386 “Our Prophet, theMessenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Aloneor give Jizya (i.e. tribute),and our Prophet has informed us that our Lordsays:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go toParadise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen"
So now you have admitted finally that you have no intention of answering a question that you know will embarrass you further, why not have stab at explaining to me and anyone interested on these "progressive forms of Islam" that you keep banging on about.
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The devout believer of the gospels proclaim to understand them perfectly yet fail to understand that calling anyone - including the Christ - "son/s of god" is only a title and doesn't mean that the christ was a literal offspring of an omnipotent sky dwelling being.
As usual, the gospels themselves prove this to be the case.
Jhn 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:19 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Phl 2:15 - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world
1Jo 3:1 - Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I don't doubt that to explain away these verses the theist will have to say that it is I who is at fault and that I am interpreting them wrong and they will go about changing and altering words or the whole of these verses to make them appear to mean something else entirely.
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@BrotherDThomas
--> @Stephen, @Mopac, @zedvictor4, @n8nrgmi.n8nrgmi,YOUR SATANIC REWRITING OF THE BIBLE QUOTE: "the science is overwhelming that that story of noah is a myth, a bible error"HELLO? We are not talking about subsequent science, we are talking about Jesus' TRUE WORDS within the scriptures at the time they were written, GET IT, FOOL?! When you Satanically proffer that our God's Great Flood did not happen, then you are not only calling Jesus a LIAR within His inspired word, but you are calling Matthew, Peter, Luke, and Paul as LIARS as well!!! Who in the Hell do you think you are?!When you Satanically state that the Great Flood is a myth, then you slap the faces of Jesus, Matthew, Peter, Luke, and Paul in their New Testament writings because they mentioned Noah and the Great Flood in the following passages; Matthew 24:38-39, Hebrews 11:7, 2 Peter 2:5, Luke 17:27, 1 Peter 3:-21. Essentially, you are calling the aforementioned bible characters as LIARS which is blaspheme towards Jesus as God!You are guilty of the following passages, where you are no more a Christian than MOPAC because you deny Noah's Great Flood! You accept the ENTIRE BIBLE for what it represents because you DO NOT have the godly authority to say otherwise, and if you can't, then you discard it altogether and become a Hell Bound Atheist, understood?!"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ." (Galations 1-6)“EVERY word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5) EVERY word includes the Great Flood, fool!“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD of God.” (Luke 4:4). Every word of our God Yahweh/Jesus/Spirit includes the passages of the Great Flood that YOU deny happened at your expense upon Judgment Day!“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” (2 Timothy 4:3)N8nrgmi, as it can be seen, you too are vying to be as bible ignorant and dumbfounded as MOPAC, therefore turning yourself into another minion of Satan at DebateArt! BLASPHEME!
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I don't see why you think any of the above applies to me?
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@keithprosser
It would help your cause of not being taken as a bigot if you stopped referring to your opponents as 'absolute bastards'!
When the looney left wing apologist such as yourself stop bastardising everything they don't agree with or shows them for what they really are, then maybe I will . Until then, you still haven't answered this question:
Do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslims? YES OR NO?
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@keithprosser
Listen to these lovely, tolerant,integrated and diverse muslims, protecting "their " pissing ground.
To a white couple.
"This is a muslim area move away. Move away now , don't come back. This is a muslim area, your not allowed here"
To a white woman
"You cannot dress like that in a Muslim area".
To a homosexual
"Your a gay , get out of here, get out of here you filthy fag"
Yes all very "moderate" and tolerant.
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@keithprosser
The details are not clear, but something is pushing muslims - especially younger muslims - into adopting conservative interpretations of Islam.
Yes, its called Islam as taught in the Quran and the Hadith and the Surah.. Just Islam, not "moderate" or any other "type" of Islam, just Islam, as In just Muslim
Do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslims? YES OR NO?
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@keithprosser
I think what you're getting at is that 'Moderate' is not the same as 'Liberal or 'Progressive'!
No, what I am getting at is that leftwing libtard apologists like yourself keep coming up with these terms and descriptions that even muslims do not like or appreciate and find very offensive and do not even recognise!!.. Yet this doesn't stop YOU be telling THEM different and that they do not know what it means to be muslim or what a muslim actually is. And now you have the bollocks to tell me what it is "you think I am getting at". Stop it, my ribs are fkn aching.
That is, I think, true. I think its very likely that conditions and events - local and global - have resulted in many British muslims adopting a more 'narrow and conservative' reading of Islam than even a generation or so ago.
Have they? Well now let me see your evidence for your opinion and what you "think". because the video tells me different, is all you have to do is prove me and them - the muslims in the video - wrong. are you telling these muslims that they don't know what it is they are saying!? watch it again, here > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
The question is do we want British muslims to be more liberal or do we want them not here at all?
Is it? And why is that the question? I think you should 'think a little deeper than that.
I think that the latter is not only odious it is impossible!
Yes impossible, to say odious is an opinion.
We have no choice but to attempt the former, no matter how difficult it seems.
And then lets start with your own suggestions. I am sick of giving you mine just for you to ignore them, even though you have asked for them.
It gets even harder with people like Stephen demonising Islam and Muslims at every opportunity!
Who are you talking to? You addressed the post to me directly, now your talking in the second person. What is the matter with you prosser.
You are more that welcome to present islam in a glorious and good light; I have asked you to do so many,many times and you haven't done so thus far. I ask you again, to do so.
I think we do need to discuss the social impact of Islam,
Yes we do. But you simply want to close down the truth of the matter. You won't have a word said against Islam that is stamping its mark all over Europe.
but there's more to debate than posting videos selected to show muslims in a bad light.
There is, But when I make a statement, I like to back it up. How do you suggest I do this without apologist like you calling me "racist and bigoted and you favourite newly invented word "islamophobic"?
You are on the losing end of a real argument, one that you liberal apologist bastards thought you could win. You can't and you haven't and won't.
Listen Prosser. I don't blame MUSLIMS for doing what they are doing. They will do what it takes for themselves and their barbaric ideology to survive. I blame absolute bastards like you for refusing to see what MUSLIMS are doing to preserve their ideology. so fk you gain prosser!.....
and do not forget this>>
Do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslims? YES OR NO?
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@keithprosser
I think I posted that link previously
No. I posted it, on another thread when we were discussing the same subject of what is a "moderate muslim". You didn't explain then as you haven't now.
But I do sincerely wish it had have been you. That would have been another link that you posted that actually support my argument and not your own.
Do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslims? YES OR NO?
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The gospels were written by four different men to four unique audiences, so it is natural that they would include different details concerning the life of Christ.
I agree.But this still doesn't explain away the discrepancies concerning the date of birth or the discrepancies concerning the day the Christ was crucified. But I can see this part of the argument going circular so I will leave that part there as it is very clear in the gospels that they do not get agree on the most important days in the Christian calendar.
One has to ask, why the silence from Mark and John concerning the "virgin birth"? The answer is simple; there wasn’t one in the sense that we today understand the word virgin. Not only did they not know about it, but they didn’t have a clue about the childhood of the saviour that didn't save himself never mind his people.either! This in turn must give rise to the question of why did Matthew and Luke, whose gospels are (in a large part) said to be borrowed from Mark, feel the need to mention a virgin birth? And we have to keep in mind that Mark is believed to have been the first of the gospels yet he has absolutely nothing to say about the virgin birth of Christ.
There is also the problem of the Christ's bloodline. which I will get to in a minute.
But their writing was superintended by the Holy Spirit, who guaranteed that what each wrote was the absolute truth.
You have no evidence whatsoever for that comment.
There are differences, but they can all be harmonized.
Now that is more nearer the truth. And by " CAN BE harmonized" I believe this means that you will change and alter verses and interpret words as so the gospel writers do appear to be speaking as one.
The narratives of Jesus’ birth found in Matthew and Luke are not contradictory but complementary.
You cannot deny that there are clearly two different genealogical sources coming from both these gospels Matthew and Luke; at Matthew 1:2-17 King James Version and Luke 3:23-38.KJV
But Luke had this to add:
“For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us. Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word. It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus.”. Luke 1:1-3 KJV.
Simply put, Luke is telling us above that these people (his sources) knew and perfectly understood what they were talking about and it was the truth that they were conveying to us (and Luke) because his sources had witnessed it all. And that it was ‘good enough for him’ so it should be good enough for us. Luke obviously couldn’t have known what Matthew had written in his genealogical list. So in layman's terms it meant 'accept it or kindly go away'.
It is also interesting that Eusebius said this in his History of the Church. "each believer has been only too eager to dilate at length on these passages”when referring to the bloodline lists of Matthew 1:2-17 and and Luke 3:23-38.
“to dilate”? One can only imagine translates as ‘who do you think you are looking at these genealogies with your eyes wide open’. Or ‘don’t allow your eyes to become too dilated, you may see the contradiction and know the truth’. It does beg the question as to why Matthew and Luke even took the time to add these genealogical lists to their gospels because they should instantly throw doubt (for the Christian) as to the divinity of Jesus and his very existence and are therefore pointless because we cannot after all, forget that Mary, Jesus’ mother was a virgin, wasn’t she? What is more, we have the two evangelists, Matthew and Luke, both showing us that Joseph is the direct descendant of King David. And this is not to mention that they don’t even agree as to whom Joseph’s father of was:
“And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary”. Matthew 1:17.KJV
Luke 3:23; “Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph, the son of Heli”.KJV
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@n8nrgmi
please show me a smoking gun bible contradiction. i'm pretty sure i'll be the one to show you how it's not.
I have given you two examples. If you are going to start playing silly fkn games we can end this discussion here.
I have asked you - Can you point - where in the Christian New Testament it states in clear language that "Jesus was god"?
You have ignored that question.
I have asked you - by whom? Or what? And how? After you say that you " believe the bible is inspired.
You have ignored those questions also.
After you said that " the Noah story is an example of a myth" I asked you - " can we be sure that the ancients were not relaying a story in the only way they understood what it was that was happening and they were experiencing at the time?
You have ignored that too.
This doesn't come as a surprise to me and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone else either that you have responded to my questions with questions of your own. I have found this to be the usual response from religious apologists when they are actually challenged on anything they say.
And you haven't even responded to my opinions and or observations concerning your other statements. A discussion is a two way street. But apologist don't want it that way do they.
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@n8nrgmi
the consensus is that jesus existed.
I believe Jesus existed too.
i believe the bible says that jesus is God,
Can you point out where in the Christian New Testament it states in clear language that "Jesus was god".
i believe the bible is inspired,
By whom? Or what? And how?
but not error free,
That's correct.
but would like to believe it's error free on essential theology.
It isn't. I notice you say that you "would like to believe".
the noah story is an example of a myth,
It may be an "example" of a myth, but can we be sure that the ancients were not relaying a story in the only way they understood what it was that was happening and experiencing at the time?
because i believe in miracles that have evidence for them,
Most of the so called "miracles" in the New Testament are easily explainable.... because they are not "miracles" in the sense that Christians would like them to be and believe them to be.
And that goes for the OT too.
but it's hard to find a smoking gun contradiction.
No it isn't. there are many clear contradictions in the bible. The gospellers cannot agree on many things and are not consistent on many occasions. The day of the crucifixion is one and the day of the Christs birth is another. Of all the things that these gospellers should agree on it is those two dates.
i think miracles and near death experiences help prove god,
having an experience of nearly dying, is not evidence of a god.
i think faith makes more sense than faith and works in that debate.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
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@keithprosser
I note that Parkfield school has not 'caved in'.
Always well behind aren't you. and you have the brass neck to tell me to do research.
Primary school which has had parents protest outside will have updated LGBT lessons in September
Don't you have a Specsavers near you? You keep missing this>>
Do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslims? YES OR NO?
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@keithprosser
(In fact I know you do, because you keep calling me an Islamic apologist!).
That is about the only thing - on this thread - that you have understood correctly. But that shouldn't be hard considering it is the truth.
I note that Parkfield school has not 'caved in'.
Then you haven't been keeping up,
we can scarce afford to deport Moeen Ali or Abdul Rashid until after we have won the world cup.
Careful now, you may be accused of being patriotic. Your left wing, libtard apologetic friends won't have that, will they.
“I see it as a criticism,” one woman in Luton told me. “You are giving me this label based on how I look and how I dress.” Her male friend said he found the word “offensive”, adding: “Are you saying I’m only 50% Muslim? When someone says to me ‘you’re moderate’ it suggests to me they’re saying ‘you’re not fully Muslim’.”https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/16/moderate-muslim-devout-liberal-religion
Do you see the divisiveness that these MUSLIMS feel prosser? Or are you going to come over all Jess PHillips on them and tell them they don't know what it is or means to be muslim.
Oh , and you must have missed it, for the billionth time>>
Do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslims? YES OR NO?
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@keithprosser
Why don't you do some research and find out why the term 'moderate' is an issue in the Muslim world?
So on the one hand you are asking ME why it is that I "get so worked up" about the term "moderate muslims" and "moderate islam" (when I don't, but muslims do) and on the other, you are now admitting that it is an issue in the muslims world . I know it is a big issue in the muslims world you clown, this is what I have been trying to get through to you, but you keep insisting on using the term as if it is something in reality, IT ISN'T!!!. And I have "researched" it and hundreds of thousands of MUSLIMS simply hate the fkn terms "moderate muslim and moderate islam". they find it "divisive and insulting and abhorrent". But what these MUSLIMS think simply will not bother a left wing apologist such as yourself will it. No. you will just ignore what these MUSLIMS really think of this "abusive and divise" term "invented by the west" and act as if they never ever had an opinion concerning their own identity. This is liberals and apologists all over, they want to stamp THEIR left wing libtard agenda and opinion on everything. Jess Phillips MP tried this outside a school in Birmingham and got called an "islamophobe" for her trouble.
Yes she tried to tell a muslim what it was to be muslim, the fkn bare faced nerve of the woman, and YOU posser, are exactly the same as this fkn trollop MP. And they want her out of office now too.
It is left wing apologist such as yourself that love to use these fluffy words or simply invent new words to play down the fact that Islam is not compatible with the west and never will be.. And you see from the link how upsetting the term is to MUSLIMS and why. so fk you again prosser!
OOOh look from your favorite and much quoted by you newspaper.
“I see it as a criticism,” one woman in Luton told me. “You are giving me this label based on how I look and how I dress.” Her male friend said he found the word “offensive”, adding: “Are you saying I’m only 50% Muslim? When someone says to me ‘you’re moderate’ it suggests to me they’re saying ‘you’re not fully Muslim’.”https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/16/moderate-muslim-devout-liberal-religion
Do you see the divisiveness that these MUSLIMS feel prosser? Or are you going to come over all Jess PHillips on them and tell them they don't know what it is or means to be muslim.
Anyway, you must be extremely pleased - and relieved - to have found something that can be construed as almost justifying saying that there are no-go areas and that 'great swaths of the uk' have been overtaken by muslims.
There are plenty more where those few examples come from.
I think it also exemplifies why I started a thread 'Why is Islam backward' and my link to an excellent article on why the prospects of reforming islam are poor at this time.
Yes an article that seems to go all the way in supporting what I say, not you. That backfired on you too didn't it? and that is why you deserted the thread, your own thread; just like your headline that you believed was your hit piece and the silver bullet, but that too wasn't a silver bullet either, WAS IT!. That teacher,as I have proven, was forced from his job after death threats from muslims NOT CHRISTIANS and after a warning ( an Osman Warning) from the police concerning his safety.
here you are, have another read!!!!!
Andrew Moffat says his lessons were not accepted by some Muslim parents, adding: "You can't teach someone to be gay"
"The teacher at the centre of the row over LGBT lessons has told Sky News he received a death threat and has been given advice from police about how he travels to and from school.
Andrew Moffat, the assistant head teacher at Parkfield Community School in Birmingham, wrote the No Outsiders programme that is used to teach diversity and equality in some schools."
Protests by mainly Muslim parents who object to their children learning about same-sex relationships have now spread from Parkfield to other schools in Birmingham and beyond".
on why the prospects of reforming islam are poor at this time.
They are not poor you deceitful fkr, they are NON EXISTENT! and always will be and I have explained to you many times why Islam cannot be reformed and YOUR article supports what I have said. You should have read YOUR article much more closely, as you should have "researched" properly why it was that teacher Andrew Moffat was forced to resign from his teaching post that he loved and had dedicated his life to.
So just for once in your sad sorry miserable cowardly life, stand up and face this question with, honour, honesty and a little bit of integrity.
Do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslims? YES OR NO?
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@disgusted
"god created woman for mans pleasureOoh look that's exactly the misogyny that Stevie wonder's fascist colleagues preach. Radical idiots are all afraid of women, the poor little things.
No, That was the view of one of your muslims friends in the video I have posted. learn to read sea sponge. But at least you understand that these type of comments coming from this muslim are indeed "misogynistic", and do not belong in a free and liberal western society.
Here, have another go
When we watch further a muslim clearly states words to the effect that "it should be man and woman, and that "god created woman for mans pleasure" .I can only suppose that this last comment was meant for those women living in the muslim area and not this wider community,.... for now at least. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAgTgUwTE8Y
In this video these handful of protesters don't appear to be disturbing the peace at all. Unless we include being somewhere they are not wanted or shouldn't be?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vFWeONJcg
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@keithprosser
Ok returning to prosser's original post we have this from the scene of the muslim protests
𝗠𝘂𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗺 𝗣𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗻𝘁𝘀 𝗖𝗹𝗮𝘀𝗵 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗟𝗚𝗕𝗧 𝗔𝗰𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗶𝘀𝘁𝘀 𝗶𝗻 𝗥𝗼𝘄 𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗿 𝗟𝗚𝗕𝗧 𝗟𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗼𝗻𝘀
"Local residents being disturbed by the lgb community, protesting at night, these people want to come to "OUR AREA" [that is the muslim area] and cause anarchy, I'm afraid I have to hold all the lads back (that will be muslim lads)because they are becoming very volatile"
We don't see anyone actually saying that they are being disturbed and we don't see the lgbt community doing any "disturbing" in the first few moments of this video. What we do have though is a muslim filming and giving us a running commentary on what is supposed to be occurring. Yes It is a muslim filming this and talking about "our area" and it is a muslim that has posted it on youtube. But come daylight, we then have more filming of muslims telling us how frightened they were the night before.
All very odd seeing that these homosexual activist were pelted with eggs and driven away once it was discovered that they were in the area where these muslims actually live and told " and don't come back". when we watch further a muslim clearly states words to the effect that "it should be man and woman, and that "god created woman for mans pleasure" .I can only suppose that this last comment was meant for those women living in the muslim area and not this wider community,.... for now at least.
In this video these handful of protesters don't appear to be disturbing the peace at all. Unless we include being somewhere they are not wanted or shouldn't be?
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@keithprosser
'moderate Muslims'I don't get why you get so worked-up over a term that has become the usual idiom.
I don't get worked up, I get it right and correct.
a term that has become the usual idiom
So ok, so are the muslims in this video what you would call "moderate muslims". And do not tell me about the speaker, it has nothing to do with weather or not these muslims are moderate or not. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2062?page=4 remember these muslims actually say they are "moderate".
And further;
I don't get why you get so worked-up over a term that has become the usual idiom.
Why do muslims get "worked up" over the term, such as Erdogan the prime minister of Turkey with many Islamic Empires under his historical belt and who should know better than you, all about Islam and what it means to be a muslim.
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@disgusted
Why are you so hateful?
Listen you vile repulsive specimen. I have pointed out to you many times,you ignorant bigoted buffoon,that you attack people for believing and having faith in something instead of attacking what it is they actually believe. You are a vile individual who doesn't want to discuss anything, you just want to be right even at the cost of being unable to support your own fkn claims and proving that you are a hypocrite, by making demands others do so. Repeatedly asking questions that you know cannot be answered doesn't make you clever or even right, you vile repulsive buffoon , it makes you a vile repulsive bully. Or have you forgotten the bullshit claims you have made without supporting evidence to back them up when repeatedly requested to do so.
Don't think these wild claims of YOURS! are going to fade away anytime soon.
--> @disgusted "we have evolved by exactly the same process as every other animal that has ever existed on this planet"?
Prove it.
--> @disgusted "We all exist in the same reality"
Prove it.
--> @disgusted " the word god did not even exist before the middle ages"?
Prove it.
--> @disgusted Even very primitive humans invented gods,
Prove it.
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@keithprosser
OK, so it was probably only quite, not very, primitive humans that invented gods.
So for the sake of you desperately wanting the sea sponge ombea to be in the right (not to mention keep him on side), and me be wrong, you are going to say that the now extinct ancient human Homo erectus , that the Natural History Museum says is "a species of human firsts", created god?
My, my. You are a bitter little tit aren't you.
Why do you not return to this thread and answer some questions?
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@Wylted
No go zone merely means "a high crime area" that police have to use more caution entering. It is not exclusively a muslim thing and nobody ever claimed it was
I don't doubt that for a second coming from the standpoint of police officers. But from the standpoint of a simple civilian they are no go areas, where I wouldn't take my daughters or granddaughters to in daylight. They - muslims - even make videos and post them on youtube for all non muslims to watch. Yes, these are videos warning non muslims not to come to" their area or they will be killed".
Have I made videos of muslims making threats specifically to people not to "come into our area" or they will be killed?
"for years this has been our area, it is a no go area for black people white people, we are Paki and you are not coming into Birchills [ Wolverhampton] man. You come here and your dead"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzNC4RY-3n4 .
Prosser, the apologist will no doubt accuse me of posting "unhelpful and inflammatory posts", but doesn't tell me how I'm supposed to support my allegations without producing supporting evidence for what I have alleged . This is nothing short of him wishing to censor me.
The late great atheist himself- Christopher Hitchens - had this to say many years ago now;
" I beseech you. Resist it while you still can and before the right to complain is taken away from you, which will be the next thing. You will be told you can't complain, because you are " islamophobic". The term is already being introduced in the culture as if it were an example of race hatred or bigotry. Watch out for these symptoms,they are symptoms of surrender" He goes on to say words to the effect that the ones who will open the gates for these "barbarians" will be your own. [ prosser] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EYg8Tgrh0o
On one of HIS OWN threads Prosser asks why "is Islam Backward? " My first question to him was " Does it then follow that those adherents to Islam are "backward" and don't know what they are following?" https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707
After repeated requests to answer my question he deserted his own thread. But the point I am making here is, that on this thread, his OWN thread again, he accuses a hall full of what has to be more than 500 Muslims of being "manipulated by someone who is skilled at speaking" into agreeing that the penalty for adultry and homsexuality is death just has allah has orders. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2062?page=4
These two instances on their own may not mean anything to you. But when we put these two instances together it is not hard to workout that what prosser is actually saying is that all muslims are in fact backward and can be easily be "manipulated" by someone who is better than them at speaking and who teaches a religion that is backward. It also tells me what prosser really believes.
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@keithprosser
I am damn sure I have never posted that Islam is gay friendly!
That wasn't the question. The question was - are the muslims in the video are what you would call "moderate muslims"? What's you problem it is a yes or no answer.
Get this into you skull - I don't post against you because I love Islam.
I don't believe you. But I can accept that that is my problem. You have shown me enough that says you lick the arse of islam with your lies about the teacher AND THAT story, by the way was something that YOU had posted but you disingenuously left out the death threats and the osman warning from the police regarding the teachers life.
I post against you because I think you post inflamatory propaganda.
You must have missed it. so I'll say it again. I didn't make the video or post it to you tube, No, that will be muslims that did that.
I didn't research, edit and publish the gallup poll results, saying that muslims have "zero tollerance to homsexuality and that homsexualty should be outlawed. No, that was the left wing Guardian news paper. The same paper you just love to quote.
AND I didn't post the story about the homosexual teacher Andrew Moffa. No that was YOU wasn't it? Andrew Moffa who you say "resigned" when this is not the reality. He tells it different, doesn't he? Do you need reminding what he said? You slyly and disingenuously left out the death threats from muslims and the osman warning from the police regarding the teachers life, didn't you?
So you see prosser, like I have said, I only post in response to what you accuse me of or what you deny and what you disingenuously fail to mention. So Fk you again prosser. You keep digging while I watch you go deeper.
Are there social issues due to the presence of a muslim minority in the UK? Of course there are!!
I haven't denied that, But YOU have taken this way off the op track haven't you? We have covered old ground again, and you have lived up to your usual behaviour of avoiding questions concerning your own fk thread.
What do you, Steve, do about those issues?
Yes, you always come back to this when your on the fkn ropes. I want you as the fkn apologist here, to tell US how we get out of the mess that the libtards left fkn wing apologists like yourself have created for the rest of us. And my name is Stephen.
You make sure every story that can show that minority in a bad light gets the maximum possible exposure here on DArt and possibly elsewhere.
You started the thread not me. And I have asked you many times to show us all islam in a good light. So far on this thread at least you have picked a story about the harassment and death threats by muslims against a teacher simply doing his job. WHAT A FKN GOOD START!!!!!
My job is annoying you.
Then "annoy me" with some substance and facts. And you'll go a long fkn way before you begin to annoy me.
And that sound like you are doing just as I have always said you are doing; just being fkn contrary for the sake of it. Ha, you won't win points or arguments with that as your driving factor.
Now then, are these muslims what you would call "moderate muslims"? because they say they are.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
And YET AGAIN you have ignored my requests for explanations here>>
What is a "moderate muslim"?
What "types of Islam" are there?
What is an "ordinary muslim"?
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@keithprosser
More playing down and apologising. Denial denial denial. FK you prosser. Those muslims in that video are all agreeing with what the speaker has said, there is no getting away from it.i'm sure you are well aware how a skilled speaker can 'work' his audience.
More apologetics. This video clearly supports the finding published by the Guardian that Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
I wonder what the response would have been if he'd started by saying 'how many here twould throw a gay off a tall building?'
Then wonder no more, he more or less has you buffoon, they all agreed that the penalty for homsexuality is and should be death.
He asks in a very slow calm voice " how many of you in the room are normal muslims, not extremists, not radical, raise your hand?" , They all raised their hands.
But he didn't do that - he built up to it. It was skilled oratory.
That is not what I asked you stop fk swerving. Everyone in that room all agree that they are not extremist or radicals. everyone also in that room all agree that the punishment for adultry and homsexuality is death.
It matters not what you believe of the speakers skills.
I don't deny the video is genuine - of course there are fear and hate mongers on the islamic side, your allies in the headlong rush to civil strife.
That surprises me, if you thought you could syphon a glitch or even more apologetic sympathy from the video, you would have done so in a flash, but you can't , you have to face the facts and it's breaking your fucking heart so you attack the speaker in the video who has already established that the audience is not extreme or radical leaving you to grasp at straws.
So I ask you again, are these muslims what you would call "moderate muslims"? because they say that they are. .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
Omar is right - all you do is post unhelpful and infamatory posts and have nothing constructive to say.
I didn't make or post the video up on youtube, that would be muslims, or it would have been taken down by now. AND That wasn't the question. this was the question;- are these muslims what you would call "moderate muslims"? because they say they are.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
And YET AGAIN you have ignored my requests for explanations here>>
What is a "moderate muslim"?
What "types of Islam" are there?
What is an "ordinary muslim"?
all you do is post unhelpful and infamatory posts
Oh and it wasn't me who published the findings printed in the Guardian either. Have you complained about the "inflammatory" press releases published by this left wing rag?
Here they are again, But don't bother blaming me for the research,editing and publishing. I had fk all to do with it!!!!
Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
all you do is post unhelpful and infamatory posts
Get this through your skull. I only respond to what you write. I only post in response to what you accuse me of or deny. You just don't like it that I can respond to your bullshit and have answers for the same shite. Whereas you have painted yourself into a corner from the off,, again.
You won't forget my questions will you? . I have asked you quite a few times now.
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@keithprosser
I have also asked you three times to tell me if the MUSLIMS in this video are what you would call "moderate Muslims"? This will be the forth.What I see in the video are people being manipulated.
More playing down and apologising. Denial denial denial. FK you prosser. Those muslims in that video are all agreeing with what the speaker has said, there is no getting away from it. . You play it down by saying these "people" that will be MUSLIMS!!! are "being manipulated" - how the fk would you know!!!? Are you a reader of the MUSLIM mindset now? This is apologizing for islam AND apologising for the opinions of ALL of these MUSLIMS assembled in that hall., and you know it. And you pretend these stats do not even exist from your favourite left wing newspaper
Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
So I will ask you again, would you call the muslims in the video "moderate muslims" yes or no. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
And YET AGAIN you have ignored my requests for explanations here>>
What is a "moderate muslim"?
What "types of Islam" are there?
What is an "ordinary muslim"?
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@keithprosser
There are Muslims who want to establish a world Caliphate and are prepared to use violence and force to achieve it.
Yes It's called Islamic terrorism or more precise, Islamic jihad. See Manchester Bombings for a description.https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3627708/manchester-arena-bombing-victims-terror-attack-ariana-grande-anniversary/
There are "muslims who actually do want to actually live in a peaceful integrated western society." - at least in theory!
Yes I said that, and believe it to be true. Don't you? What's you boring apologetic point!
We need labels to discuss the issue.
We do, but no sooner do I use the label MUSLIM to describe who is doing what to whom and where, then YOU and the sea sponge fire in with "labels" of your own calling me a "racist islamophobe". all very odd considering the sea sponge that is disgusted has "labeled" ALL muslims as mental cases and in serious and urgent need of psychiatric treatment and that Islam is stupid and Allah and the prophet Muhammad all have mental issues<<<<< How's that for "islamophobiia" !!!!??? and YOU telling us all " Why Islam is backward".
So please do uggest term for the different sorts of Islam and their followers - they may catch on!
Don't try to throw this back onto me you sly fkr. You have suggested yourself that there are "types" of muslim and "types" of Islam. YOU insist on using the label "moderate muslim" and YOU have also used the label "ordinary muslim" all on this thread of yours here >. Why Is Islam Backward? https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707
I have asked you repeatedly to explain what these terms mean. I will ask you again:
What is a "moderate muslim"?
What "types of Islam" are there?
What is an "ordinary muslim"?
I have also asked you three times to tell me if the MUSLIMS in this video are what you would call "moderate Muslims"? This will be the forth.
Moderate Muslims try to defend the death penalty for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality
It is a simple yes or no question. You it seems know what a "moderate muslims" is (although you have never explained it). So a simply yes or no will do.
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@keithprosser
But because I don't co-operate in his patriotic crusade against Islam and Moslems he brands me an 'islamic apologist'.
That is because you are, you play down the actions of MUSLIMS at every chance. You are no better than that leftwing libtard Jess Phillips MP who told the world that the rapes and sexual assaults in Cologne of hundreds of young women "where no different to a night out in Birmingham on a Friday night" <<<< this was libtard Philips trying to play down the fact that these rapes and sexual assaults were caused by left wing immigration policy.
And YOU are no fkn different to that left wing apologist Jess Phillips. You have claimed that one the Teachers at centre of the homosexual row in Birmingham simply resigned from his post after being harassed by "christian parents" , when the teacher himself says it was the "death threats from MUSLIMS and after a police warning concerning his safety that FORCED him to leave. These warnings are not dished out for nothing, they are official Osman Warnings IN WRITING! you fkn apologist.
I REPEAT!!!!
"Andrew Moffat says his lessons were not accepted by some Muslim parents, adding: "You can't teach someone to be gay"
"The teacher at the centre of the row over LGBT lessons has told Sky News he received a death threat and has been given advice from police about how he travels to and from school.
Andrew Moffat, the assistant head teacher at Parkfield Community School in Birmingham, wrote the No Outsiders programme that is used to teach diversity and equality in some schools."
Protests by mainly Muslim parents who object to their children learning about same-sex relationships have now spread from Parkfield to other schools in Birmingham and beyond".
I would say having received a death threat and warnings from the police concerning his safety, that this could be a classic case of being forced out of his job. But if you want to appease the the mob and play down the death threats you can call it "resigned" if you wish.
You played down the seriousness of this by (1) making it appear that it was Christians that had caused this teacher to "resign". (2) you have purposely played down the seriousness of this case by willfully omitting the death threats and the police warning that this teacher had received. You are a devious and sly person who knows the fkn truth of the matter but just like those two left wing labour libtard MP's you are in full blown denial.
Those two clowns are reaping what they have fkn sown, the problem with that though is , so will everyone else. so fk you again proseer you lying devious bastard!
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@keithprosser
According to wikipedia "A human is a member of the species Homo sapiens," so homo erectus isn't a human at all.
Fkn semantic.
Natural History Museum.
The extinct ancient human Homo erectus is a species of firsts. It was the first of our relatives to have human-like body proportions, with shorter arms and longer legs relative to its torso. It was also the first known hominin to migrate out of Africa, and possibly the first to cook food.
In terms of species survival, Homo erectus is a huge success story. Fossil evidence for H. erectus stretches over more than 1.5 million years, making it by far the longest surviving of all our human relatives.
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@Wylted
No go zones are a fact. The arguments liberals use against them amount to "no official no go zones are documented by the government". Well no shit. Police are not going to openly admit they are afraid to go to a location without significant back up
"No go zones" are a fact all over Europe. The apologist just don't want to admit it . It will all backfire on them sooner or later as the protests on homsexualiy are proveing.
Recently we have had the perfect demonstration in our own parliament of how the looney far left and open border idiots and the homosexual community are completely at odds with themselves. They have been trying for years now to make the incompatible - compatible and now it has come back to bit them on the arse simply because they cannot face up to the reality of it all.
Angela Eagle the lesbian MP British Labour Party stood up in parliament recently a cried her fkn eyes out about muslims, protesting outside schools in Birmingham.
What she cannot understand is that the ultimate issue here is not the homosexual aspect of it all, it is about muslims demanding what they believe are their rights in a democratic, free liberal country and laying down the law in opposition to the open free and liberal society that we all are supposed to live in. Eagle and her cohorts the left wing labour party have created this society that they themselves have found themselves to be at odds with.
Angela Eagle was wailing telling parliament " we are not going back into the closet". what this left wing dumb arse cannot see is that if labour actually get into power , and the law caves in to these muslim protester , back into the closet is exactly where she will be going. She must have forgotten that her own leader celebrates the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Islamic Republic of Iran publicly hangs homosexuals and leaves them hanging there as a warning to others. She is in complete denial and believes " we are all alike" . Between sobs and wails, she spoke about how "religion was not going to push her back into the closet", but she didn't mention which religion because she believes it is a religious problem generally but it isn't.
These are not Christian outside these schools she is wailing about, they are muslims who are protesting and getting their own way. One of these schools has now dropped the no outsiders programm and one teacher has ' resigned, but eagle is still is insisting that this a religious problem generally. She obviously hasn't seen the states that tell us that 52% in the UK of muslims believe that homosexuality should be criminalised. 100% of muslims in the Uk and polled by gallup said that they found homsexuality unacceptable and abhorrant. That is Zero tollerance of homsexuality, ( I wonder how many were "moderate".) But Eagle is in complete denial that this has anything at all to do with Islam. Why? because just like prosser , they have been defending Islam far too long to admit that they are also have been part of the fkn problem that they have caused and got it so , so fkn wrong.
Then we have another MP who now finds herself in a similar situation. Jessica Rose Phillips another British Labour Party member who told the world that the "rapes and sexual assalts in Cologne were no more different to a Friday night out in Birmingham".
Muslims in Birmingham are now putting up posters around the city calling for a vote of no confidence, because she wouldn't back the protests outside the schools. They want her scalp, and she now has began to realise what she and her party have caused. They are telling her what they will and will not accept and have called her an "islamophobe", YES! they have hit her with her own fkn stick and no one is more pleased than i. I will give her one thing, she attempted to tell these protesters that they will not be treated different to anyone else, it got her nothing but abuse.
But still, for reasons explained above, these pair of left wing libtards and people such as the apologist prosser still refuse to see what is happening.
I have linked to much of what I have explained below.
The Birmingham school and imported gay hate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56vzk...
Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/m...
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
'We aren't getting back in the closet' says Angela Eagle in impassioned LGBT speech https://www.theguardian.com/politics/...
Jess Phillips targeted by Birmingham anti-LGBT protesters https://talkradio.co.uk/news/jess-phi...
Labour MP Jess Phillips defends remarks about Cologne sex attacks https://www.theguardian.com/world/201...
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This is suggesting Islam is not peaceful.Islam under the definition of peaceful: without violence (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/peaceful) is not peaceful.
I don't understand. Just keep it simple, why should "I dislike Islam". I want prosser to understand why it is that YOU say I "should dislike islam".
My claim was that the organizer does not even have children in the school. You didn't rebut that.
i don't care. It matters not to me or what I have said if or not this prick has children that attend that school. The point is, that it is muslims protesting about something that conflicts with their religion and are demanding the school adheres to their religious belief and way of life.
Should we know hate all Muslims because of a minority now?
well I haven't mentioned that I hate anyone concerned with this protest. The point I have made more than fkn once now is that it is MUSLIMS that are demanding THEIR islamic laws be upheld in a free western liberal society. Now if you cannot grasp that, just fk off and leave the thread because you will only be going around in circles all by yourself. I will add this though. the hypocray from the left and the homosexual community has been nothing short of astounding. these little homsexual cowards have not had the balls to come out in support of this headteacher and her staff. they haven't came out in a face to face protest against these muslims as they would if it was a Christian protest. No. if this was a Christian protest the left wing homsexuals would be there confronting the Christians and spitting in their faces and calling them homophobes. And the police wouldn't bat a fkn eyelid.
Don't be a fence sitter and act like there is bad but when you have to act upon bad you aren't going to do something about it. So what do we do about it? Please do answer so I understand what you want to happen.
I am not a fence sitter you nobhead.
There are fkn laws in this country that ALL residents must adhere to. So, leaving aside that these muslims have a right to protest, for whatever reason, they do not have the right to threaten and intimidate staff and members of the public who are defying the protesters by taking their children to the school.. In this case the law should be upheld and those threats of murder and rape should be thoroughly investigated by the police. But just like Rotherham and HUNDREDS of other places throughout the UK these allegations will be swept under the carpet as if nothing happened and you will not hear a damn thing ever again about them. I hope that covers it.
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@keithprosser
He [ie Andrew Moffat, the originator of the 'No Outsiders' course ] quit a previous teaching post after a row with Christian parents who rejected his anti-homophobia lessons.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1088033/muslim-parents-school-protest-lgbt-rights-parkfield-community I think Steve would say 'forced out' (not 'quit') f it was Muslim parents!
It appears that it was "muslim parents" mainly as it is at the other school in Birmingham.
Teacher at centre of LGBT row in Birmingham received death threat.
Protests by mainly Muslim parents who object to their children learning about same-sex relationships have now spread from Parkfield to other schools in Birmingham and beyond".
I would say having received a death threat and warnings from the police concerning his safety, that this could be a classic case of being forced out of his job. But if you want to appease the the mob and play down the death threats you can call it "resigned" if you wish.
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@disgusted
The point is that MUSLIMS are demanding
You mean Islams are demanding. Do you remember that it's not Muslims you don't like?
I mean muslims are demanding. they are there outside these schools DEMANDING teachers do not teach lessons about homsexualality and that it is ok to be muslim and homsexual. learn to read.
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@3RU7AL
No I am suggesting that "primitive humans" did not invent god as has been cliamed.Thanks for clearing that up.Are you suggesting that "ancient humans" invented god(s)?
No.
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@keithprosser
I am also suggested that god wasn't invented the day "we" apes climbed down from the trees as has also been suggested.It was not a serious suggestion - I intended only to imply that belief in gods could go way back.
Yes it was a silly suggestion that would only have been taken seriously by someone with a mental capacity lower than a sea sponge fetus, disgusted fits the bill. he was lapping it up when you came to his assistance with this utter baloney; at post 38 https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2059?page=2
I think it's pretty safe to assume that humans have believed in gods (of some sort) for a very long time - maybe since we came down from the trees.
and now it has dawned on you what a cretinous statement that really is , you want us all to believe it was all suggested as a joke.
I don't expect that homo erectus could have absract concepts like 'gods',
Homo erectus (meaning 'upright man') is a species of archaic humans
That would be a primitive man then. So you don't agree that this primitive man invented god then. Good , now tell that to the sea sponge fetus
If we say that 'human' is resticted to homo sapiens then I think gus is probably dead right.
If if if . What he had clearly stated is "VERY primitive humans". See homo erectus above.
Either way there is no realistic possibility of 'proof' before a few thousand years ago.
Yes I know. But you just try telling that to a fk brain dead sea sponge.
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@3RU7AL
But please, feel free to make your case, whatever it is.Are you suggesting that primitive humans had no religious or spiritual beliefs?
No I am suggesting that "primitive humans" did not invent god as has been cliamed.
Are you suggesting that primitive humans only worshiped "YHWH"?
No I am suggesting that "primitive humans" did not invent god as has been claimed. I am also suggested that god wasn't invented the day "we" apes climbed down from the trees as has also been suggested.
Please detail your opposing hypothesis, if you have one.
I didn't make the claims so you are asking the wrong person . You need to ask the sea sponge that is disgusted why he believes "primitive" human" created god. And you need to ask what makes the half intelligent keith prosser believe that "we" invented god the day we climbed down from the trees"
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@TheRealNihilist
Would you be so kind to explain to prosser and anyone interested, why it is that I " should be disliking Islam".Under the assumption you value life would be the simple on.
This is suggesting Islam is not peaceful. Or have I got that wrong and could you expand on that for the benefit of the apologists, such as prosser.
So after three and in your own words tell us why it is that I "should be disliking islam"?
If you actually knew what was going on. Most of the mothers and fathers weren't protesting and this event was hosted by someone who has no children even attending the school.
Not according to the "organiser" who says he has "relatives at the school". This not the only school that muslims are protesting at either.
and is all irrelevant. The point is that MUSLIMS are demanding that a Head Teacher and her staff should stop teaching what they have been told to teach and what will be compulsory to teach in the very near future. They have received death threats and threats of rape.
And that is why I have mentioned muslims. No go away unless you have some other crackpot accusation of racism, "islamophobia" or bigotry to put to me.That is your problem.
No, that is you fkn problem if you cannot keep up .
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IF I MEANT "MODERATES",I WOULD HAVE SAID SO.What you wrote was "muslims who actually do want to actaully live in a peaceful integrated western society.". What word you think is appropriate for the Islam do those Muslims follow?
What are you now doing , again, is reducing yourself to answering questions with questions of your own, I asked you what is a moderate muslim? And do you believe the muslims in the video are moderate muslim. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
Moderate Muslims try to defend the death penalty for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality"
So are those muslims in the video and ALL agreeing with this Imam in Birmingham "moderate muslims" or some other kind of muslim? Yes or no?
IT WAS YOU WHO BROUGHT THE ERM INTO THE THREAD, YOU CLOWN, NOT ME.
In the west the term 'moderate Islam' was adopted for it.
Not in my books. Or in the books of others who understand islam much, much better than you . so fk off again. I will add though, western governments have made up quite a few words of late and as Christopher Hitchens made clearly plain , these newley invent, created and "adopted" words are now a part of the muslim culture.
Some in the Muslim world - most publicly the presideny of Turkey, Erdogan - don't like that because it suggests 'moderates' follow a 'watered down' version of Islam. They insist it is them that follow Islam and it is the fanatics who are heretical non-Muslims.
Yes and he is in a much better position than you as are many other ISLAMIC speakers and scholars, to understand what he is talking about. so fk off again.
So from an Islamic perspective there is not 'Islam' and 'Moderate Islam' - there is 'Islam' and a fantical heresy.
Unless you can name any other "types" and explain why the are a different "type". You have called islam " backward" but never stuck around to even explain why it is backward. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/1707 WILL YOU NOW EXPLAIN WHY YOU BELIEVE ISLAM IS BACKWARD?
But you have misundertood - or misrepresent - this to suggest that Erdogan et al are against what the west calls 'Moderate Islam' and a supporter of its fanatical splinter - the precise opposite of his meaning.
No. I have simply told you what many including Erdogan have made pretty clear on more than on occasion. Who am I to disagree with him.
Erdogan has said that "the term moderate ISLAM is a tool invented by the west":
"The idea of ‘moderate Islam’ was invented by the West and is being used to weaken the ancient religion, Turkey’s President Recep Erdogan has said in reference to Saudi Arabia’s reforms, while also lashing out at the EU’s “discrimination” of Muslims.
He went on to reiterate:
“The term ‘moderate Islam’ is being lathered up again. The patent of moderate Islam belongs to the West. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam; Islam is one. The aim of using such terms is to weaken Islam,” Erdogan said in Ankara". I know you just hate these facts but your opinion of what Erdogan AMONG OTHERS, has said on the subject overrules any opinion you have on the matter. so, fk you again prosser.
he also added:
"These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it".
If you want to keep repeatedly covering old ground then knock yourself out. I suppose it is the only way you can divert from the argument you lost concerning the OP. Your OP.
Greedy Pigs is in Bradford, not Savile Town.
And I apologise. I was slightly confused. No how about you start answering some question you sly devious fkr. Or are you just going to insist on diverting from one topic to another.
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